Marriage & Money

[Trialbyfire]

First, I don't have time to read everyone's "story". And I made no assumptions. My point was that if a person keeps a secret "nest egg", then what else would that person be willing to keep secret from their SO? The "lover" was just an example of something people tend to keep secret.

 

I'm sorry that I often write "you" when I really mean "one"... so don't take it that I meant it specifically to be personally about you. I was just using your example to make a point... sloppy writing perhaps.

 

But it begs the question. You think it is acceptable to keep a slush fund secret from your SO. What else would you think was acceptable to keep secret from your SO? Is it OK for your SO to keep a secret "nest egg" of his or her own? If you can't trust your SO with your money, how can you trust them with your life?

 

You know how useless that is if you get divorced in a community property state? ALL the assets of the marriage are on the table and if you hide any of them from the court ... well let's just say the judge is gonna frown on that big time.

 

If you and your SO have any assets you can rest assured that the attorney's won't be worried that they won't get their cut from your hides.

 

Perhpas you didn't read carefully. Neither of us controls the other. But we also expect we will disclose everything to each other. i.e. we have no secrets from each other. My wife sometimes works on classified contracts and I still expect her to be able to talk to me about those, because I would be honor bound not to discuss anything she was requried to keep secret with anyone else but her. In that regard we are "one mind". Sorry if you don't get that.

Since I've just gone through a divorce and one of my majors was finance in University, I think I might know a few things...but hey, what does a woman know anyways, right?

[Woggle]

But Woggle, as long as each of you think of it as "my money" and not "our money" how married are you?

 

If your wife needs a little extra money this month do you make her sign a loan agreement? What interest rate do you give her?

 

Are you two seperate individuals sharing a bed or are you "one"?

 

And I don't mean this personally Woggle, but generally if two people keep seperate accounts are they really that trusting of one another. Are they are really fully totally committed to each other? If the two accounts are just to make balancing the checkbooks easier, that's one thing. But if it's because one partner doesn't trust the other to manage their money or not gamble it all away... well that's a problem.

 

We are both very generous but we have final over our money. It is not a matter of trust but independence. We both contribute our half to the expenses and the rest we can spend as we like. If I want to go to New York for the day and spend that is my business and if she wants to go down to Atlantic City it is her business.

[Krytellan]

Now I have a question that I dont think was addressed in this thread. My gf and I have discussed this... just as a way of "feeling out" how we each felt about the issue.

 

The idea would be, after marriage, to have a joint account for all joint things, such as mortgage bills and such, and separate accounts for excess beyond investment spending.

 

However, my question to everyone is how do people assign monetary responsibility when there is a large difference in incomes? Person A makes 80k/yr and person B makes 40k/yr. Should the couple split bills and such meaning that person A gets 40k more "fun money" than person B? Or should there be a proportional situation where person A pays 2/3 of the bills so that person B can still have money to spend on him/her self?

Or maybe person A pays for the vacations or something.

 

What about that situation?

[Star Gazer]

However, my question to everyone is how do people assign monetary responsibility when there is a large difference in incomes? Person A makes 80k/yr and person B makes 40k/yr. Should the couple split bills and such meaning that person A gets 40k more "fun money" than person B? Or should there be a proportional situation where person A pays 2/3 of the bills so that person B can still have money to spend on him/her self?

Or maybe person A pays for the vacations or something.

 

What about that situation?

 

 

I'm not married, so I don't really know. But I'll tell you what my BFF and her H do.

 

She makes 30% of the total income. He therefore obviously makes 70%. As a result, he pays 70% of all bills, vacations, expenses, etc., and she pays 30%. If she starts making more, or he less, than the split changes. I think it's quite formulaic, but it works for them.

[Flyin in Clouds]

Since I've just gone through a divorce and one of my majors was finance in University, I think I might know a few things...but hey, what does a woman know anyways, right?

Care to answer any of the questions in my previous post?

 

So if you have a seperate and secret account in a community property state like California, say, (where one out of 10 of us american's live), are you saying that the court won't consider that account as community property?

 

And do you have the chip on your shoulder because you are a woman or is there some other reason? Just what does your finance major have to do with divorce law? Please explain...

[Trialbyfire]

Care to answer any of the questions in my previous post?

 

So if you have a seperate and secret account in a community property state like California, say, (where one out of 10 of us american's live), are you saying that the court won't consider that account as community property?

 

And do you have the chip on your shoulder because you are a woman or is there some other reason? Just what does your finance major have to do with divorce law? Please explain...

I'm uncertain what your need to denigrate is all about. If you have a chip on your shoulders, please don't transpose it to another member.

 

As for a secret account, there's no need to debate about whether it's community property or not. Each party comes into a marriage with assets. When you're hammering out the separation agreement, you, the one with the secret account, will have the ability to fund your own living expenses from it so you are not held at financial gunpoint by the partner with all.

 

Btw, I promote separate accounts, not joint accounts. It's far easier to address when you're going through a divorce...

[Flyin in Clouds]

We are both very generous but we have final over our money. It is not a matter of trust but independence.

If you want to remain "independent" why get married? Why not stay single and just live together?

 

Marriage isn't about independence. It is about becoming one - and mutal dependence. Depending on each other through thick and thin.

 

 

We both contribute our half to the expenses and the rest we can spend as we like. If I want to go to New York for the day and spend that is my business and if she wants to go down to Atlantic City it is her business.

That is were I beg to differ. You are acting like you two are not married. It is very much each others business where you go, what you do. Your lives are intertwined. You don't care if she goes to Atlantic City and gets shot? Or shacks up with somebody? Come on... what each of you do is important to the other. That's what sharing lives is all about. Sharing, not independence.

 

Would you go to the City without telling the other where you were going? How considerate is that?

 

Are you saying your wife can't spend any of your money? And you can't spend any of hers? I don't get that kind of thinking. Our money is simply ours. It belongs to both of us. We consult each other on big items because we do almost everything together - together is what defines our marriage. It is us.

[Flyin in Clouds]

...

However, my question to everyone is how do people assign monetary responsibility when there is a large difference in incomes? Person A makes 80k/yr and person B makes 40k/yr. Should the couple split bills and such meaning that person A gets 40k more "fun money" than person B? Or should there be a proportional situation where person A pays 2/3 of the bills so that person B can still have money to spend on him/her self?

Or maybe person A pays for the vacations or something.

 

What about that situation?

If you are going to even consider arguing over that don't get married.

 

For my money (pun intended), it's all one big pot of money. We jointly decide how to spend/invest it and no we don't ask each other over trivial amounts, like a couple hours of flight time (at $120 an hour to rent the plane for me - hence flying in clouds... ) or her buying $100 of baby clothes for the grandkids. How about considering the family made $120k and after bills you each get equal shares. Or are the two of you not really equal in your marrige. One of you is more important because of the money they earn? How will that make the lessor one feel?

 

We do it that way because our lives are one thing. It's our family. Together. We use debit and credit cards and rarely write checks anymore and with online banking we keep things up to date and can track what we spend. Perhaps we are fortunate in that we do not have ot squeeze every penny out of our paycheck and we've accumulated a lot of money in the bank (after 30+ years of marriage). I just think trying to split things up as hers and mine and worring about who makes the most indicates you aren't fully committed to each other being one unit, one family, one for all, and all for one...

 

Oh, yeah. My parents set up a family trust which was a wonderful thing. After my parents died, we didn't have to mess with probate. Everything was just straight forward. I would highly recommend setting up a faimly trust for any couple that is married with children. In the event of your unexpected demise it can make their life a whole lot easier. But at the very least be sure to have a will. Dying without one is a real pain in the ... to your heirs.

 

By keeping things separate you keep your lives separate. By putting everything together your lives are together. Why is it only one of you would pay for a vacation? The other doesn't contribute? So they don't have any ownership of the vacation? Don't you both want to feel you've worked together to earn your vacation that you will enjoy together. A cruise - together.

 

And what if one stops working (kids), or gets fired or ... if things change does the "rich" partner suddenly become the poor partner or the only money earning partner?

[Krytellan]

If you are going to even consider arguing over that don't get married.

 

And you think TrialByFire has the chip on the shoulder?

 

I fail to see where anything I said represented and argument.

 

Further, I can only assume that your desire to judge the quality of everyone's relationship by the fact that they have separate accounts means that you truly cannot understand their positions. I am going to guess that you have never heard the words "I'm going to take you for everything you have", have never known someone who has made poor financial decisions and misused money, have never known anyone with poor habits or addictions, have never known anyone that is dishonest, or have never been screwed over by someone you trusted. For that, I congratulate you.

 

However, until you experience any of these things, you enjoy your righteous and superior position.

 

 

Flying in clouds: I just think trying to split things up as hers and mine and worring about who makes the most indicates you aren't fully committed to each other being one unit, one family, one for all, and all for one...

 

All for one... ahh yes, I remember that. I remember fully committing to someone and having complete faith in the power of love. In fact, if I'm correct, she is in process of deciding with her lawyer exactly how much she can take from me after spending two years of being verbally demeaning to me. Ahh yes, the power of the commitment.

[Trialbyfire]

And you think TrialByFire has the chip on the shoulder?

 

I fail to see where anything I said represented and argument.

 

Further, I can only assume that your desire to judge the quality of everyone's relationship by the fact that they have separate accounts means that you truly cannot understand their positions. I am going to guess that you have never heard the words "I'm going to take you for everything you have", have never known someone who has made poor financial decisions and misused money, have never known anyone with poor habits or addictions, have never known anyone that is dishonest, or have never been screwed over by someone you trusted. For that, I congratulate you.

 

However, until you experience any of these things, you enjoy your righteous and superior position.

 

 

Flying in clouds: I just think trying to split things up as hers and mine and worring about who makes the most indicates you aren't fully committed to each other being one unit, one family, one for all, and all for one...

 

All for one... ahh yes, I remember that. I remember fully committing to someone and having complete faith in the power of love. In fact, if I'm correct, she is in process of deciding with her lawyer exactly how much she can take from me after spending two years of being verbally demeaning to me. Ahh yes, the power of the commitment.

Here, here! Someone speaking from a position of knowledge.

 

When someone sucks out all the funds from a joint bank account, tell me how good that true "commitment" feels. People usually dash after this type of action. Catch them if you can...

[Woggle]

If you want to remain "independent" why get married? Why not stay single and just live together?

 

Marriage isn't about independence. It is about becoming one - and mutal dependence. Depending on each other through thick and thin.

 

 

That is were I beg to differ. You are acting like you two are not married. It is very much each others business where you go, what you do. Your lives are intertwined. You don't care if she goes to Atlantic City and gets shot? Or shacks up with somebody? Come on... what each of you do is important to the other. That's what sharing lives is all about. Sharing, not independence.

 

Would you go to the City without telling the other where you were going? How considerate is that?

 

Are you saying your wife can't spend any of your money? And you can't spend any of hers? I don't get that kind of thinking. Our money is simply ours. It belongs to both of us. We consult each other on big items because we do almost everything together - together is what defines our marriage. It is us.

 

 

Having a certain level of independence is what helps keep a marriage together because you don't feel trapped. Just because you are married doesn't mean that you are no longer a person.

 

Of course I care if she gets shot or shacks up but she doesn't do that. She likes to go with her friends to gamble and since I am not a gambler she will have more fun with them. She enjpys going to New York with me but when I go and visit old friends she doesn't want to hang out with us while we catch up on old times.

 

The only area where I disagree with Trialbyfire is secret accounts. Keeping secrets is not good for marriage but given her recent betrayal I understand she is a little sour.

[Flyin in Clouds]

I'm uncertain what your need to denigrate is all about. If you have a chip on your shoulders, please don't transpose it to another member.

When you write "but hey, what does a woman know anyways, right?" that indicates you've got a chip on your shoulder. I don't think I (or anyone else) implied women, i.e. you, don't know anything because you were a woman.

 

As for a secret account, there's no need to debate about whether it's community property or not. Each party comes into a marriage with assets. When you're hammering out the separation agreement, you, the one with the secret account, will have the ability to fund your own living expenses from it so you are not held at financial gunpoint by the partner with all.

Ah... but that will need to be disclosed you and you will have to prove it was your non-community property, i.e. it existed before the marriage AND not one dollar of community property funds have been mixed with it. i.e. if you add some money from your wages after your marriage to that account, the whole account is now tainted and becomes community property. You must maintain the account as a non-community property account. That's how I understand that portion of the law. Also money you inherit after the marriage can be non-community property, but only so long as it is not mixed with community property funds.

 

Seperate accounts will make it more difficult should one spouse die or be disabled. Do you have a living will or advanced directives? Can you trust your spouse to make life and death decisions for you?

[Trialbyfire]

When you write "but hey, what does a woman know anyways, right?" that indicates you've got a chip on your shoulder. I don't think I (or anyone else) implied women, i.e. you, don't know anything because you were a woman.

 

Ah... but that will need to be disclosed you and you will have to prove it was your non-community property, i.e. it existed before the marriage AND not one dollar of community property funds have been mixed with it. i.e. if you add some money from your wages after your marriage to that account, the whole account is now tainted and becomes community property. You must maintain the account as a non-community property account. That's how I understand that portion of the law. Also money you inherit after the marriage can be non-community property, but only so long as it is not mixed with community property funds.

 

Seperate accounts will make it more difficult should one spouse die or be disabled. Do you have a living will or advanced directives? Can you trust your spouse to make life and death decisions for you?

When someone comes in with your attitude of immediate attack with no knowledge and denigration, it's not surprising someone bridles.

 

It only becomes community property as at the time you put your marbles on the table. In the meantime you draw from it for your living expenses and legal costs. Immediate physical separation doesn't denote a legal separation.

 

It's very easy to have separate accounts. You ensure that all information is properly documented whereever you see fit, ensuring that your will makes the appropriate references.

 

I have a power of attorney, a living will and a will. All of these have now been amended to disclude my ex-spouse...

[Flyin in Clouds]

...

Further, I can only assume that your desire to judge the quality of everyone's relationship by the fact that they have separate accounts means that you truly cannot understand their positions.

 

Sure I can understand their positions. They are all about not trusting their spouse, assuming their marriage is going to fail, or thinking in terms of "their" money, not "our" money...

 

I am going to guess that you have never heard the words "I'm going to take you for everything you have", have never known someone who has made poor financial decisions and misused money, have never known anyone with poor habits or addictions, have never known anyone that is dishonest, or have never been screwed over by someone you trusted. For that, I congratulate you.

Like I said, you can't trust the person you are married to... and yes, a woman I knew did take her husband for everything he had and then some and he had lots of "seperate" accounts. Trying to hide things got his ass thrown in federal prison (dead beat dad law).

 

 

I just think trying to split things up as hers and mine and worring about who makes the most indicates you aren't fully committed to each other being one unit, one family, one for all, and all for one...

 

All for one... ahh yes, I remember that. I remember fully committing to someone and having complete faith in the power of love. In fact, if I'm correct, she is in process of deciding with her lawyer exactly how much she can take from me after spending two years of being verbally demeaning to me. Ahh yes, the power of the commitment.

You sound exactly like my friends... she took him for everything. She had better lawyers than he did even though he had conrol of the check book and her lawyers shopped for a sypmathetic (woman) judge... ouch. He's not even allowed to come to the same county his kids are in... (he's on parole).

 

And I wasn't talking about people that are in failing marriages, but people starting out in solid marriages. Keeping things seperate keeps the couple seperate. IMO....

[Flyin in Clouds]

Having a certain level of independence is what helps keep a marriage together because you don't feel trapped. Just because you are married doesn't mean that you are no longer a person.

Just what do you mean by "independence". I can go to Vegas without telling my wife where I'm going or how long I'll be gone? I'd be royally and rightly pissed if she did that.

 

Of course I care if she gets shot or shacks up but she doesn't do that. She likes to go with her friends to gamble

Woggle... aren't you the guy with massive trust issue about women. Come on buddy... what kind of lizzards do you think are hanging around Alatanic City to pounce on women? Not a good idea. How do you know she doesn't shack up?

 

but when I go and visit old friends she doesn't want to hang out with us while we catch up on old times.

so much for sharing your lives.

[Woggle]

Of course I trust her. I get hit on all the time in New York but I never cheat on her and I trust she never cheats on me.

 

I agree with sharing your lives but couples don't give up everything when they marry.

[Flyin in Clouds]

When someone comes in with your attitude of immediate attack with no knowledge and denigration, it's not surprising someone bridles.

Please point out the "denigration" for I certainly didn't mean it as you are taking it. Because I write something that is contrary to your ideas do not assume I mean that as an attack. It's a discusion. It is OK for us to disagree.

 

It only becomes community property as at the time you put your marbles on the table. In the meantime you draw from it for your living expenses and legal costs.

I believe to keep it non-community you have to have had it before the marriage and not mixed any community funds (i.e. your wages) to the account after the marriage. I believe that is correct. So you have to be careful to keep the account as a non-community account. Otherwise it loses it's special status. A pre-nup can help with that by disclosing those funds as fully non-community property. Everything else is community property and if you draw on it to pay your part of legal expenses that can be counted against your share... at least I think that's how it works.

 

It's very easy to have separate accounts.

Yes it is. That does not mean they are not community property. And a judge can get all accounts frozen until it's sorted out in court. So put some cash in small safe you can take with you.

 

I have a power of attorney, a living will and a will. All of these have now been amended to disclude my ex-spouse...

I understand, my question was if you ever marry again, would you ever trust your future spouse enough to give them DPOA over your health care. The power to pull the plug?

[Trialbyfire]

Please point out the "denigration" for I certainly didn't mean it as you are taking it. Because I write something that is contrary to your ideas do not assume I mean that as an attack. It's a discusion. It is OK for us to disagree.

 

I believe to keep it non-community you have to have had it before the marriage and not mixed any community funds (i.e. your wages) to the account after the marriage. I believe that is correct. So you have to be careful to keep the account as a non-community account. Otherwise it loses it's special status. A pre-nup can help with that by disclosing those funds as fully non-community property. Everything else is community property and if you draw on it to pay your part of legal expenses that can be counted against your share... at least I think that's how it works.

 

Yes it is. That does not mean they are not community property. And a judge can get all accounts frozen until it's sorted out in court. So put some cash in small safe you can take with you.

 

I understand, my question was if you ever marry again, would you ever trust your future spouse enough to give them DPOA over your health care. The power to pull the plug?

It only comes down to judicial freezing of assets if you take it that far...

 

As for giving over healthcare, I would ensure that it was a joint decision between the spouse and someone else of trust. I cannot and will not live in a vegetative state but will also not entrust my life to one perspective.

[Flyin in Clouds]

Of course I trust her. I get hit on all the time in New York but I never cheat on her and I trust she never cheats on me.

Well that's news. because all I see from your posts is how women can't be trusted... and you can't believe you've got the only one that can be. But yes, as you don't cheat believe she won't either.

 

I agree with sharing your lives but couples don't give up everything when they marry.

I know that is true for some (many, most?) couples. But I wonder how keeping things seperate, money or secrets or "hobbies", etc, I wonder how that contributes to divorce at the end of the day?

 

What do you enjoy doing together? If there balance is mostly you do things apart and seperate for each other, and there is little that you do together or enjoy together I wonder how that plays out in the long run and if it doesn't contribute to divorce?

[Flyin in Clouds]

... I cannot and will not live in a vegetative state but will also not entrust my life to one perspective.

I trust my wife with my life completely.

[Trialbyfire]

I trust my wife with my life completely.

But that's your personal choice. Not everyone has the luxury of having a spouse that is so dedicated. I once trusted my spouse implicitly too, at least as to my life...

[IpAncA]

 

It's not hers, it's not mine. It's ours.

 

I'm sure that works fine but once someone becomes selfish, well joint isn't all that great IMO.

[Phoebe]

Me and my husband have always had seperate bank accounts until just recently when he added me to his account before he was deployed. It's a long story and I'll post it at a later date but I've told him that I'm leaving him. I believe that having seperate bank accounts fostered a me & him attitude versus a we attitude in our relationship that was harmful to our relationship (and I'm as much to blame as he is in this). I'd always had the attitude that he worked hard for his money and I wasn't entitled to it, and he resisted the idea of a joint savings account. I'm fairly independent this wasn't a big deal to me until recently. It wasn't until I was without a car and he announced (didn't discuss, just announced) that he was dropping $5,000 into having a buick engine rebuilt for one of his two cars that I started to think that there was something wrong with this situation. We're supposed to be the foundation blocks of a family unit (we were about to start trying for kids at the time) and yet this 'my money your money' attitude meant that I couldn't afford to buy another cheap car on my own, had to ask permission from my husband to use one of HIS cars to get to work until I could save the money, and he was dropping $5,000 on a luxuary item! People may have problems with a shared bank account but I think that seperate ones can foster an unhealthy attitude in the relationship. Trust is no doubt a big issue, even though I have full access to his account at the moment & he know's that I'm leaving him he is not worried about me having that access. Because he knows that I won't touch his money, he just wants me to get my own car ASAP, while it's going to be tough financally I'll figure it out.

[Touche]

I agree Phoebe.

 

If you don't share a bank account, then you're not fully invested in the relationship, IMO.

 

I also think that if there's a prenup involved you're not fully investd either.

 

Some may say that's naive, stupid..whatever. But that's my opinion having gone through one marriage where we had separate accounts and my marriage now where we don't.