bonehead Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 Why is a mans value as a father so tied to his role as a husband? Dont even try and tell me its not, because we all know how men who have an affair or leave their wives are viewed.
whichwayisup Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 Wouldn't it be the same, if not worse, if a woman left her husband and children for someone else? Husband and wife get married, create a life - make a baby - Together as husband and wife, they become parents. Two separate rolls as parents and as spouses, but a family is a family. It's hard to separate the two when kids come into the picture.
alphamale Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 Why is a mans value as a father so tied to his role as a husband? . cause thats what women want the definition to be
whichwayisup Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 Both men and women do it to eachother too, in the marriage (oh you know what I mean by do it...lol) they call eachother mom and dad. I know it has alot to do with the kids, but still is weird...
Author bonehead Posted April 11, 2007 Author Posted April 11, 2007 Wouldn't it be the same, if not worse, if a woman left her husband and children for someone else? Husband and wife get married, create a life - make a baby - Together as husband and wife, they become parents. Two separate rolls as parents and as spouses, but a family is a family. It's hard to separate the two when kids come into the picture. But people never ASSUME a woman has left her kids, but they ALWAYS ASSUME the man left his kids.
Author bonehead Posted April 11, 2007 Author Posted April 11, 2007 cause thats what women want the definition to be :lmao: So once again a mans role is dictated by a woman.
whichwayisup Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 But people never ASSUME a woman has left her kids, but they ALWAYS ASSUME the man left his kids. I may get bashed for this and this in all honesty has nothing to do with who loves their kids more, I know both father and mom love their kids to death, but I think women have a more intuitive bond, an emotional bond with their children because of carrying them for 9 months and giving birth to them. It's harder for a woman to up and leave her kids than it is a man. Sorry, this is not personal to you or any other man who's marriage has ended, I'm just saying this is what I think in general about bonds, that's all. Don't be offended by my words.
outofdarkness Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 But people never ASSUME a woman has left her kids, but they ALWAYS ASSUME the man left his kids. Well..I don't know if I agree w/ this..My Sister left her son and ran off w/ a guy she met online...She D her H and gave her EX full custody...Everyone, including us, her family, just assumed she would do this knowing her. I think this is much more common now days as it was say 10 years ago..More and more women are realizing that mabey they aren't cut out for M and Motherhood after all and doing what I would consider to be the honorable thing. If you can't do it right, and your partner can, isn't it sort of an honorable thing to do to leave the parenting to the one who CAN do it right? In my mind, this shows how much a parent like this loves the child...
whichwayisup Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 Wow, I guess that blows my theory out of the water eh?
Author bonehead Posted April 11, 2007 Author Posted April 11, 2007 I may get bashed for this and this in all honesty has nothing to do with who loves their kids more, I know both father and mom love their kids to death, but I think women have a more intuitive bond, an emotional bond with their children because of carrying them for 9 months and giving birth to them. It's harder for a woman to up and leave her kids than it is a man. Sorry, this is not personal to you or any other man who's marriage has ended, I'm just saying this is what I think in general about bonds, that's all. Don't be offended by my words. I agree, but it still doesnt give perfect strangers the right to assume that a man leaves his kids because he gets a divorce.
whichwayisup Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 I know. I'm sure it sucks and society as a whole can be really cruel and judgemental. But, what counts is, as long as YOU know you're a good dad and your ex knows and your kids know.... It is unfair that men get the short end of the stick. Divorce and custody should be fair and most of all fair to the kids, 50-50, custody etc.. (I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head right now. Must be getting tired...)
jbmarine Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 Why is a mans value as a father so tied to his role as a husband? Dont even try and tell me its not, because we all know how men who have an affair or leave their wives are viewed. This is just my personal opinion, but I think it goes back to the view that the man is the provider and that the children will starve without him. I could be totally wrong, but that's just my opinion.
boshemia Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 People will always be free to assume whatever they wish, and most of the time that assumption is tied to their personal experiences in life. Many of us grew up with fathers in our lives, I had my biological father and five step dads who all cut their ties to me as soon as the marriage ended. No visitation, no child support, very little contact. I've not seen nor heard from any of them more than a handful of times in my life. I am a fourth generation divorced woman as well, which is almost unheard of. My Great-grandfather ran off, my Grandfather did as well... both had severe alcohol problems and regretted it, but that is what I grew up with and sometimes I do see things colored by my own experiences. All men eventually leave... I won't even begin to defend that... I know it is inaccurate, and I often have to remind myself that my life has not been normal, that there are many great fathers out there who are just as if not more commited to their children as any mother out there. I have a lot of respect for men who follow through on their commitments to their children after the marriage ends. Marriage is supposed to be a commitment, and anyone who doesn't follow through on a commitment doesn't exactly deserve to be praised. We have have a personal responsibility to be as good as our word, but when it comes to children I am very passionate about people living up to those commitments despite failed marriages. Children need to be raised by mature responsible adults, we need to remember to love our children more than we hate each other...
Author bonehead Posted April 11, 2007 Author Posted April 11, 2007 I know. I'm sure it sucks and society as a whole can be really cruel and judgemental. But, what counts is, as long as YOU know you're a good dad and your ex knows and your kids know.... It is unfair that men get the short end of the stick. Divorce and custody should be fair and most of all fair to the kids, 50-50, custody etc.. (I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head right now. Must be getting tired...) If what counts is the man knowing his is a good father, then why are men told they are a bad father for having an affiar or getting a divorce?
LucreziaBorgia Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 If what counts is the man knowing his is a good father, then why are men told they are a bad father for having an affiar or getting a divorce? I guess it comes down to what children learn from their parents. I would think it would be far better lesson in life to have a parent who leaves a marriage and divorces to find happiness with someone else than it would to have a parent who stays married and cheats. You can be the best parent in the world, and actively teach your children great lessons in life. But if you are philanderer, and your kids find out about it (and as they get older they generally do) - then nothing you say will ever be louder than the actions you present.
Herzen Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 Being a father and husband are different roles. All good fathers are not necessarily good husbands. And all good husbands are not necessarily good fathers. The test is to remain a good father once you cease being a good husband or a husband at all. Many men fail that test. These family self-exiles move away, start new families or carry on a "Peter Pan" player existence--all the while ignoring their children. For many men, out of sight means out of mind as far as their children are concerned. That's very wrong. It's one thing to hurt your wife--whether through infidelity and/or desertion--quite another to hurt your children. I have no time for men who betray their children.
PoshPrincess Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 Being a father and husband are different roles. All good fathers are not necessarily good husbands. And all good husbands are not necessarily good fathers. Totally agree. My Dad was a terrible husband but (arguably) a good father. Saying that, he did leave my Mum alone with us most of the time and even avoided family holidays because he didn't want to spend time with my Mum so I guess that isn't such a good father. I do remember spending quality time with him though which is more than some people have so I wouldn't totally write him off. I have no idea if he had affairs but he didn't leave my Mum till we were in our 20s and, no matter what he says, I think that was out of worry about what other would think of him, rather than any real concern for myself or my brother. My Dad and I had a great relationship with he was with my Mum and I guess that was because he gave me the attention he should've been given her, like having an ally I suppose. Now that he has moved on with life and is with someone else I don't get half as much of his time which I suppose is fairly natural. I wonder if my exMM will be the same. He is very close to his children and this could be because the more time he spends with them (they are mid to late teens) the less time he has to spend with his W. Yes, my exMM had two As during his marriage (his W had at least one that he knows of) but I don't think that made him a bad father. He loves his kids more than anything and has now made the choice to stay for their sake. I think that after all the trouble our A has caused, he has learnt not to go there again! I am pretty sure that he will be faithful from now on, despite the fact that he is not content, because he doesn't want to put his children through anymore pain. My ex-partner and I split after 8 years. That was my choice but although we no longer live together I wouldn't class myself as a single parent nor call him an absent father. He is very much part of our son's life. I have to say though, as angry as he was at the time for me 'taking his son away from him' he wouldn't have dreamt of fighting for custody or anything like that. I don't think that was because he thought a child belonged with the mother necessarily, or that it wouldn't have been practical for him to have his son living with him, as we both have to work full-time anyway, but more because he wouldn't want him living with him permanently. That isn't to say that he doesn't love him, because I know he does, but having a 3 year old around on a more regular basis would interfere with his personal life. I can hoestly say that he is happy having him two or three nights a week and when I once asked him to have him an extra night on a semi-permanent basis he refused. IMO most women are brought up to feel that children are their responsibility and my ex-partner and, probably other men, can feel they are 'doing us a favour' by having the children more than is necessary. I think that could be down to their own upbringing though as my exes Dad is very much a traditional who earned the money while my mother-in-law stayed at home and looked after the kids. It IS funny though how many (myself included) think a man leaving his kids doesn't make him a bad Dad. At the end of the day IMO he isn't leaving his kids, just his W. He will always be their Dad. BUT I would automatically consider (wrongly possibly?) that a woman is a bad mother for leaving her children to live with their father. I could never have done that and that could be because of the fact that we are MADE to feel that it's wrong BECAUSE we're women.
whichwayisup Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 then why are men told they are a bad father for having an affiar Because it's a betrayal for the kids too. Ask ANY child who's had a parent who cheated. It takes away time with the kids, being with the OW. Or a woman who cheats on her husband, she is putting energy into another man, not her own children.
NoIDidn't Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 These family self-exiles move away, start new families or carry on a "Peter Pan" player existence--all the while ignoring their children. For many men, out of sight means out of mind as far as their children are concerned. What I have bolded is what I think on the matter. BH, this may not be you, per se. But it is the experience of many of those whose parents have separated. I don't care what you say about your fathering, unless more D'd fathers spend as much time kissing boo-boos, abd drying tears because the kids are hurting emotionally, they can all get over being told that they LEFT their families. Because they did leave their families. How many times have you met a D'd man that has a new baby with his new W and his previous children are treated as visitors in his life and not as family anymore? The children that came before are treated as optional and they feel that way. Truth of the matter that is never acknowledged by those of the "kids are resilient" camp, is that the "men leave their families, but women leave their Hs" is that the CHILDREN decided this was the case. Because most the time they still have free access to their mothers, but their dads have NEW lives that they aren't totally included in. Mom typically takes the kids with her. Mom typically doesn't date a guy for long unless her kids will accept him too (and he accept her kids). But dad..... Dad does whatever he wants and expects the kids to adjust. He doesn't run his new dates by his kids, he just shows up with the NEW Ms Right-For-Him and thinks that because he thinks she is so great, the kids will too. Sorry, for the rant. But the kids decided this rule because its their experience with what happens after Dad is gone. If as a D'd or Single Father you don't want this to be what is said of you, DON'T DO IT TO THEM. Don't leave without generous visitation. Don't forget that their feelings matter when you choose a new lover. Don't act like their Mom is the only one capable of kissing the many boo-boos that life will give them (GFs and BFs, and peer pressure, and feminine issues, the list goes on and on). Don't go off and start another family as if the one that you just left wasn't good enough for you. Okay, that was another rant. Sorry.
Herzen Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 Affairs betray all family members--not just the spouse. I have a much more difficult time rationalizing a long-time emotional affair when minor children remain in the picture. Affairs injure relationships in manifold ways; and the harmful consequences ripple out from betrayed spouse, to children, to in-laws, etc. The wonder is that so many cheat when the costs are so high. Perhaps, when minor children are involved, it's best to act French/European and turn a blind eye to the infidelity as opposed to American and expose, discuss, dissect and analyze the affair in all its gory detail. While ignorance (pretend or real) is not always bliss, it's sometimes useful. The "truth" is not always the highest goal.
NoIDidn't Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 is this: If, as a man that was a husband AND father, but you are ending the H part: DO: 1. Make certain to your kids that you will ALWAYS be their father, that NOTHING will change in your being there for them aside from no longer living in the same house with them 2. Make yourself emotionally available to them. Too many D'd men stop the emotions towards the kids because they feel like failures. Don't let that be you. Show the kids your heart, too. Age appropriate, of course. 3. Allow them permission to tell you what they think of the new love/lovers in your life - within reason. The kids shouldn't have the final say, but they should feel like they have your ear. This one is crucial because how you respond to their insecurities (which is all it is) in replacing their Mom (they fear new kids will replace them) as your lover, they won't have so many insecurities should new children come into the picture. And this one is ON-GOING. You can't go to the new child's graduation, but constantly miss your previous child's ball games. Which leads to... 4. DO continue to be active in their lives. Go to the ball games. Go to the Debutante Balls. Go to Chuck E. Cheeses. Go to the Birtday Parties (especially the ones they invite you to, unless you REALLY can't make it). Understand that I speak from experience. I love my Dad, but I don't have much respect for so many of the choices that he made concerning me and my step and half siblings. I know that I am not the only one here that has had this experience. I hold much resentment over the fact that my events were never as important as theirs (also leads to the off topic issue of how the new woman in his life usually has a HUGE influence on whether or not he kids get SHAFTED - which didn't happen to me ironically). Many men leaving their Ws and families are doing so because they don't like all of the responsibility that being a H AND father bring. They rebel against the roles and don't realize how much that OFFENDS the people that those roles serve.
Herzen Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 Good points, No I Didn't. And if any topic warranted a rant, it's this one. My father deserted us when I was 4. I separated from my wife when my kids were in their mid-teens. Unlike my father, though, I didn't disappear for over 20 years. I moved less than half-a-mile away and co-parent my kids. My wife travels extensively, and next week I'll be moving back into the marital home to stay with my almost 18 year old son as she goes off to Europe for business. Both my son and daughter, moreover, are fixtures at my place. Separation and divorce are never easy. Still, some separations are worse then others. If you're worth anything as a man, you don't stop loving and caring for your children even when you've stopped loving and living with your wife. In my world, leaving a spouse doesn't define the person as much as what the separating spouse does once he or she has left the marital home.
NoIDidn't Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 I thought you sounded like a man. Its always good to get a man's view on this because BH is usually the only man here and makes it sound like the women are the ones driving this theory. Its the kids that say it because we are the ones that feel it and experience it. My dad didn't disappear for 20 years. In fact, he lived walking distance from my home between his many Ms. But he drove to my neighborhood to see his whores all the time, never to see me. I saw him all the time. Driving down the street with some strange woman in his vehicle. All I got from him for years on end, until I walked away from trying to get his attention, was child support (yes, mom gave me the checks) and he blew the horn as he drove by. I truly don't believe that D has to mean abandoning your kids. When my H and I considered D, I told him that I expected him to be a father to his kids no matter how much it hurt me to have to see him. I would rather put my own pride aside to ensure that my kids have their father in their lives. Because of my experience, M'd or D'd, I would NEVER deprive my children of a R with their father. I'd even take them to see him in prison, if he ever found himself there. But too many men leave the marital home and instantly start thinking about the greener pastures of new lovers, not about childcare arrangements. They think about the money that they are losing to child support and resent the kids for taking the money they could be using towards wining and dining these new lovers. They think about what they want, and not what their kids need. It truly is out of sight, out of mind, until the next child support check has to be stroked.
Herzen Posted April 11, 2007 Posted April 11, 2007 I see a fair amount of gender paranoia by guys on these boards. It's silly. Especially when its usually the men who benefit sexually and materially by leaving the wife and kids. I'm realistic: not all marriages last forever. Mine didn't. But a man, to the best of his ability, should always love, support, nourish and care for his children even when he stops sharing a roof with them. We all go through crazy, irresponsible times in our life, the trick is not to become, as a matter of course, cruel and neglectful.
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