Do we really get what we want?

[Babybird]

Well I've read plenty of statements from people who grew up with parents who stayed together 'for them' wishing that those same parents had never done such a thing. What a guilt trip... my Dad had a needlessly miserable life just so I could be happy.

 

What do you want?

 

You sound like an even worse case scenario than my MM (and that's not to knock you at all..!)... stay for the children and live a half life, and what's more condemn his own W to something less than a satisfying life because his heart is not in it. Oh, and this is all supposed to be 'the right thing'?

 

Now... are you waiting for someone to hand you the right words that will make you less 'selfish' for doing something life-affirming..? Just looking at your post here I see you've picked up on a few reasons why (you tell yourself) you can't possibly do what is right for you. One, your wife refuses to sort her own life out. Ok, so that's your job, then. Two, your son, who knows nothing of the world yet, says he'd like his parents to stay together... of course he would now... but when he gets older, how's he going to feel..?

 

Very well said Frannie and I totally agree with you!!

[Trialbyfire]

Keep in mind everyone that you are the relationship role-model for your children. Pretending and justifying doesn't make a relationship healthy.

[Virgo1982]

Well I've read plenty of statements from people who grew up with parents who stayed together 'for them' wishing that those same parents had never done such a thing. What a guilt trip... my Dad had a needlessly miserable life just so I could be happy.

 

That is a good point. I think we all want what we don't have. Some wish their parents would split up because the household is in turmoil. I never had that opportunity because my parents split up when I was 9 yrs old.

 

I do wonder how I would have turned out if my father had been a part of my life, but my mother had to leave him because he was a womanizer. My mother has been able to find a man who loves her and treats her the way she deserves to be treated.

 

So, do I wish they would have stayed together when I was a young girl? Yes. As a woman looking back, do I wish they would have stayed together? Certainly not.

 

Good observation.

[smartgirl]

This whole idea of "no longer being in love" is tricky. I have felt that way a couple of times in my marriage. I think a lot of people do. But then the feeling came back again. When it happened to my husband, he just assumed it was gone for good. Now it is back for him. So it is hard to tell in our situation whether love is dead or just dormant.

 

But please, please, please get some personal counselling. You do sound depressed and you should not be making any big decisions in that mental state.

[Kwo-ne'-she]

Everyone in this thread seems to have given good advice, and different ways of looking at it. I hope some of this helps you with the dilema you are facing.

 

Does everyone deserve to be happy? Yes. Should you end the M now? Only you can answer that. Just be sure that you have tried every possible way to save it, or you might later regret the decision to divorce.

 

I know there is the crowd that preaches how we should stay together "for the kids" sake. They quickly toss out statistics of studies done on children with divorced parents. Too bad there aren't as many studies done on children of parents who have stayed together in miserable marriages.

 

Children learn by example. While you may be nice to your W, and pretend that things are okay....kids can see through the act. You will essentially be teaching your child that this (your R with your W) is what a M is supposed to be. Do you want that as a role model for your child to pattern his/her future Rs on?

[Cliche]

I had a whole bunch of stuff that I was going to post after reading your first post...stuff about making sure this isn't a phase, seeking counseling first, yadda yadda. Then I read your second post and saw that you've been miserable in your marriage for 10 years.

 

Way long to know the truth. It's not selfish anymore. It's probably time to set you both free.

[pureinheart]

Hi Empty....and ((((((((((hugs)))))))))) to you, Bonehead, BTDT and Puddle....haven't seen ya'll for awhile!

 

My heart goes out to your situation Empty, to both of you. I realize that you have encouraged your wife to find a self sufficiant job, although with health issues, depending what they entail, sometimes one just does not have the drive. To start a new job, one that pays more money, in the beginning there must be a great output of energy....she may not have the energy....and she is not faking.

 

Physical infirmity can be very depressing, especially for her....and also the harsh reality of marriage, the responsibility....although the grass is not greener on the other side....I really hope you find the reasons you married her in the first place, the reasons are there somewhere....

[pureinheart]

just have to post something....don't like that # on my last post

[empty906]

So how long do you intend to stay for your son? I'm guessing he's in 4th or 5th grade. Thats a long time to be unhappy.

 

Well, when it started I told myself I would stay until either my son was old enough that the court would allow him to choose which parent to live with or until he turned 18 and left for college. Now W is pregnant again. Dammit. I wasn't trying to but I wasn't trying NOT to either every time because her condition and medications made it very difficult, if not impossible, to get pregnant. She said she told me she was having her medications changed so she could get pregnant but I don't remember that conversation. I do remember her telling me she was going to a fertility doctor and I told her I didn't want her doing that and asked her to stop. I saw where she had been prescribed the pills to take but she swears she never filled it. She has lied in the past so who knows what she has taken.

 

I am just the opposite of her and hate taking pills or medications. I would rather just 'deal with it' and keep going than to take prescription drugs. My opinion only. All the stuff W has to take is necessary to make her more normal, except for any fertility meds.

 

Back on the pregnancy, when she told my mother my mother pulled me aside and told me I was stuck now. She said she thought I was planning to leave when my son was older but this just added 18 years. I dropped my head and said, "I know."

 

<sigh> This changes everything, as babies usually do. A long time to be unhappy, Babybird? You bet it is!!!

 

In all honesty how much does the OW have to do with this? I Know when you're in love with one person it can bring out a ton of other feelings about your spouse. But you didn't mention your feelings for OW either.

 

In all honesty, OW sparked a lot of emotion that had been dormant for years. And, of course, all those new feelings felt good and I compared apples to oranges, decided I liked how I felt, and wanted to be married to someone I felt that passionate about. OW and I made plans to be together when she was able to D but her H tightened down on her and she said her spending time with me made it increasingly difficult to stay M so she said would have to stop seeing each other.

 

The feelings for OW have only recently subsided. I had an extremely difficult time cutting loose from OW but I feel like I have finally gotten her out of my head. NC works best. I know I will see her in public at some point, it's bound to happen again as it has already happened a couple of times. I think this time I can walk away from her with out thinking about her the rest of the day.

 

Your situation is not unlike the one the MM I am (was?) seeing, is in. The love is gone, but the thought of not seeing his kids everyday is the brick wall he hits when D comes up.

 

Happiness to a degree is a self-serving emotion, it's not as if you've haven't tried to re-kindle things with her and no amout of trying or forcing the situation will make the love return, it's not as if you are leaving her for an OW, you do deserve to find someone who makes you genuinely happy and your son can only benefit from seeing you in that light.

 

I think if there is a glimmer of love left in the M then you owe it to all of you to make it work, if there's not and you have to struggle to pretend for the sake of illusion, it's time to cut your losses.

 

W family is about 11 hours away and she would most likely move there, with my son. I can't have that much distance between us, I want to continue as we are where we play one-on-one every night.

 

I have tried to 'force' the love to return. LadyJane, and others, here on LS helped me a lot in this area and convinced me that over time the love would return. And it very well may, over time. But with not even a glimmer of love towards her I can only imagine how long it is going to take with my cold heart.

 

My mother called me today to check on me. She does this every week or two. I told her I just feel like I don't have any options now and she said it didn't look like it. I said, "I'm stuck?" and she said, "Yep." Stuck? Is that what is comes down to?

 

We have some friends coming over tomorrow for dinner and W usually hates company. We were busy trying to straighten up the house and at one point she got frustrated and said she didn't care how the house looked, she wasn't going to help clean anymore. Now it wasn't that bad, it just needed picking up. We had a light argument and I told her that I hated that part of her, that part that is anti-social. She retaliated said that she hates lots of things about me. Nice.

 

Back on the conversation I had with my mother today, I told her that if I don't want to be married to her and she doesn't want to be married to me then what the hell are we doing together? I know she only stays because of the security an H provides. She has told me she hated me in many of our fights in the past.

 

Lots of rambling but, Kenzo, I want so badly to be with someone that I do love, you know? It doesn't have to be Hollywood movie love. But having

 

Have you considered filing legal separation? That way your wife still gets your benefits. Although hard on the kids, they do just fine and so will your son.

 

That would work? We could be separate yet she could still have my insurance? Hmmm. I'll have to think about that one, Jinxx.

[empty906]

Couldn't agree more. I wasn't actually married to my ex-partner of 8 years and father of my child, but once I realised how unhappy I was I couldn't get out of that rut. I knew I didn't love him anymore, didn't want to end up like my Dad, still miserable 20 years on, so I cut my losses.

 

Being in the rut is exactly what I think is going on in my head. I made up my mind to D then let her convince me to stay. I went twice to the attorney's office to get the papers and called OW on the way. Both times she talked me out of it. I have it in my head that I am ready to leave and maybe that is the wall keeping me from actually loving W again. Not wanting to attach to her, or something...

 

Everyone DOES deserve to be happy and unfortunately that sometimes does come at the cost of others' happiness.

 

That is a tough call to make, huh PoshPrincess?

 

Perhaps you should take some time to weigh whether or not the affair has scewed your perception of "happiness" as in if passion is all you seek.

 

I wondered about that. But now that I feel I have gotten OW out of my system I still want out of the marriage. And I really wouldn't be leaving W and going to anyone, I would be alone. So maybe OW skewed my perception, or maybe she showed me how things could be different.

 

What do you want?

 

Hey, Frannie! What do I want? I guess I would say...I want to be in love. And not high school, butterflies in the stomach, temporary love (infatuation) but the genuine stuff. I want to want to come home. I want to miss her when I am away. I want to look forward to spending time with her in the evenings. I miss those feelings now.

 

Now... are you waiting for someone to hand you the right words that will make you less 'selfish' for doing something life-affirming..?

 

I guess I am, Frannie. Although I have no idea what those words could be. I don't know what sign or red flag I am looking for to solidify a decision for me.

[empty906]

He told her he was through with it and she was the one who didn't want him to go. It's not so much a question of 'letting her go' as why she won't take 'I don't love you any longer' for an answer (sorry, empty, my wording of your situation but I've read your posts from the beginning).

 

I appreciate your previous help and the help once again!

 

That is a good point. I think we all want what we don't have. Some wish their parents would split up because the household is in turmoil. I never had that opportunity because my parents split up when I was 9 yrs old.

 

I do wonder how I would have turned out if my father had been a part of my life, but my mother had to leave him because he was a womanizer. My mother has been able to find a man who loves her and treats her the way she deserves to be treated.

 

So, do I wish they would have stayed together when I was a young girl? Yes. As a woman looking back, do I wish they would have stayed together? Certainly not.

 

Good observation.

 

My parents D before I was 1 year old. And it was a very good thing. My dad is on his 4th W and my mother on her 3rd H. I don't like their track record...but for my mother's defense her 2nd H died.

 

This whole idea of "no longer being in love" is tricky. I have felt that way a couple of times in my marriage. I think a lot of people do. But then the feeling came back again. When it happened to my husband, he just assumed it was gone for good. Now it is back for him. So it is hard to tell in our situation whether love is dead or just dormant.

 

But please, please, please get some personal counselling. You do sound depressed and you should not be making any big decisions in that mental state.

 

The situation gets to me sometimes and I do get depressed about the whole thing. I guess I am naive, but how would the personal counseling help? Would the counselor try and lead me towards a satisfying decision? A friend went to a marriage counselor and didn't think the advise was worth the money. What do you think, is it worth it just to vent your feelings?

 

Children learn by example. While you may be nice to your W' date=' and pretend that things are okay....kids can see through the act. You will essentially be teaching your child that this (your R with your W) is what a M is supposed to be. Do you want that as a role model for your child to pattern his/her future Rs on?[/quote']

 

You are so right and, no, I don't want my son thinking this is what M is all about but if we do stay together then he won't be able to help but think marriage is not about love.

[empty906]

I had a whole bunch of stuff that I was going to post after reading your first post...stuff about making sure this isn't a phase, seeking counseling first, yadda yadda. Then I read your second post and saw that you've been miserable in your marriage for 10 years.

 

Way long to know the truth. It's not selfish anymore. It's probably time to set you both free.

 

It may be a phase, Cliche. If I didn't think about wanting to be away from W then things wouldn't seem as bad. Perception is key. If I could convince myself that W is who I want then I would be happy as an end result. But just the thought of 'tricking' myself into loving her makes my stomach knot up. That's not how it is supposed to be, people aren't supposed to trick each other into liking one another. W and I have a lot of negatives in the past, and the couples I know well enough to see if they are faking or truly happy don't have all those negatives. But I can't help but wonder if the truly happy are the exception and not the norm.

 

Hi Empty....and ((((((((((hugs)))))))))) to you, Bonehead, BTDT and Puddle....haven't seen ya'll for awhile!

 

My heart goes out to your situation Empty, to both of you. I realize that you have encouraged your wife to find a self sufficiant job, although with health issues, depending what they entail, sometimes one just does not have the drive. To start a new job, one that pays more money, in the beginning there must be a great output of energy....she may not have the energy....and she is not faking.

 

Physical infirmity can be very depressing, especially for her....and also the harsh reality of marriage, the responsibility....although the grass is not greener on the other side....I really hope you find the reasons you married her in the first place, the reasons are there somewhere....

 

Thanks, Pureinheart. She does have to deal with depression, which is controlled by medication. She has lots of pain which comes and goes throughout the day. Plus she has a potentially fatal illness that is more or less a ticking time bomb. But she has an easy job and likes her bosses so she doesn't want to give that up. She makes slightly above the average pay for our area however her job provides zero benefits.

 

The reasons we married in the first place? Young and dumb. We both made a quick decision and married after knowing each other only 10 months. I don't think there was enough stability from the start and we both just stuck it out this long.

[NoIDidn't]

 

Thanks, Pureinheart. She does have to deal with depression, which is controlled by medication. She has lots of pain which comes and goes throughout the day. Plus she has a potentially fatal illness that is more or less a ticking time bomb.

 

Empty

 

You sound really depressed yourself. It often happens that way when one is M'd to a depressed person. You really would benefit from professional personal counselling. The counsellor won't tell you what to do, if they are good. They will help you get to the root of the 'whys' of how you are feeling. If, in the end, you still decide to leave, the counsellor can help you deal with that too.

 

You might not like medication, but the OW sounds like she was a form of self-medicating. Its not uncommon. A real prescription might take the edge off of what sounds like depression in you as well.

 

Consider counselling. If nothing else, it will give you a totally objective sounding board that isn't interested having you for themselves (unless you are just that irresistable even to the professionally restrained - attempt at humor).

[Kenzo]

My mother called me today to check on me. She does this every week or two. I told her I just feel like I don't have any options now and she said it didn't look like it. I said, "I'm stuck?" and she said, "Yep." Stuck? Is that what is comes down to?

 

Lots of rambling but, Kenzo, I want so badly to be with someone that I do love, you know? It doesn't have to be Hollywood movie love.

 

Empty--This broke my heart!!! You need to take a minute and be a teeny bit selfish...She is pregnant, behing your back, taking drugs to get pregnant...You have been tricked into staying in a marriage neither of you are happy in for her own reasons of security. (Just for the record, I started a thread about the W using the husband for this very reason...when the love is gone!!) She needs you for for her own personal reasons and how you feel about it seems none of her concern.

 

Yes you are "stuck", not with her...but with being a father, for the rest of your life, and that should be a joyous thought for you, not one that fills you with despair as you ponder spending another 18 years with your W...

 

You will continue to be an amazing father to your son as I am sure you will be to the new baby...that does not mean that you are trapped and doomed for eternity to be with this woman. I am not trying to be mean here but talk about manipulation!!!

 

I would not listen to your mother in this case, I am sure she is a wonderful woman filled with wisdom, but she comes from a different time where people did stay unhappy and unfulfilled in marriages for the sake of the kids and security etc. Please take a moment to think about yourself and realize that this is your one and only life..."Hollywood Movie love" exists and you deserve to find it, to go home at night and feel overwhelmed with love by the woman laying in your bed, and to anticipate falling asleep with your arms around her...OK I'm getting a little caught up in my own little fantasy here, but you know what I'm saying.

 

P.S. Please keep rambling...God knows I am! Keep writing until you feel better and I'll keep reading.

[Ladyjane14]

I have tried to 'force' the love to return. LadyJane, and others, here on LS helped me a lot in this area and convinced me that over time the love would return. And it very well may, over time. But with not even a glimmer of love towards her I can only imagine how long it is going to take with my cold heart.

 

The love can't return under these circumstances, hon. Not while you're standing in your own way. Not when underneath it all you DON'T really want it.

 

There's a bit of nuance here, that I have a difficult time putting into words.

But it all comes down to personal responsibility, the sense of responsibility one has toward upholding his own choices. You have to KNOW that the choices you make are yours to make FREELY... and then you have to honor those choices wholeheartedly.

IOW, "I have decided that I'm where I WANT to be, and because I'm where I want to be... I'm gonna bring my A-game and honor my choice."

 

You're still looking for a loophole because you feel "trapped"... but all along YOU are the one who's made that decision. The keys to your cage have ALWAYS been right there in your own hand. They still are.

 

When you look at your wife as an authoritarian figure who's somehow MAKING you do something that you don't want to do... it's no wonder that you're harboring resentment. Further, what you're resentful of is only an ILLUSION. She can't MAKE you do a goddam thing you don't want to do. She can't.

 

My mother called me today to check on me. She does this every week or two. I told her I just feel like I don't have any options now and she said it didn't look like it. I said, "I'm stuck?" and she said, "Yep." Stuck? Is that what is comes down to?

 

Mom's wrong. You're only "stuck" because YOU say you are.

 

All of your concerns could be addressed. All of the problems have potential solutions. You could move to your wife's home state in order to be closer to the children. You could request a court order to prevent her from leaving the area. Yeah... it wouldn't be exactly the same as living in the home with your family... but there ARE serviceable solutions yet to be explored, solutions that work as well as whatever energy you're willing to bring to them.

 

Look, if you decide you want out of this thing, you're not the first or last guy who got a divorce. You're not the first or last guy who had kids in the home or 'one on the way' when making that choice. The WORLD will not stop spinning if you decide you want to go. The guy who's stopping you is YOU. Understand it. Take responsibility for being the guy who's making that decision.

 

You know... my husband and I had ALOT of water under the bridge at the time when I made MY CHOICES. And it was difficult and I had to remind myself daily for a long while, but having made my choices... I knew that I was bound by honor to take responsibility of those decisions with a FULL HEART.

I had decided that I was going to love this man, so I needed to "love" him ACTIVELY. I had decided I was going to forgive him for every single transgression that had gone before, so I forgave him and whispered my reminder into my own ear every day until it was a part of me. These are the things that I had elected to do of my own free will. To do less than what I'd set out to do didn't just let my husband down... it would've let ME down.

 

Now I'll tell you honestly... I agree with NID. A good therapist could help you sort all this stuff out. I think NID has an excellent point in the "self-medicating" properties of the extra-marital affair, and I think it's important that you rule that out as causal in your current feelings. Give it some thought. There's nothing to lose that's not lost right now.

[empty906]

Hey, LJ! Once again you have given me a post I had to sit and ponder on a little while it all sank in.

 

The love can't return under these circumstances, hon. Not while you're standing in your own way. Not when underneath it all you DON'T really want it.

 

We have discussed this before and I agree, but why is it that I DON'T want to love her? What now? OW is on her way out so she isn't in the picture anymore. Is it just that I liked the idea of leaving and I am still holding out for it? Looking for my chance to get out, wanting a valid reason?

 

But it all comes down to personal responsibility, the sense of responsibility one has toward upholding his own choices. You have to KNOW that the choices you make are yours to make FREELY... and then you have to honor those choices wholeheartedly.

IOW, "I have decided that I'm where I WANT to be, and because I'm where I want to be... I'm gonna bring my A-game and honor my choice."

 

You're still looking for a loophole because you feel "trapped"... but all along YOU are the one who's made that decision. The keys to your cage have ALWAYS been right there in your own hand. They still are.

 

I do still need to make more decisions here and then apply myself to their fruition. I am looking for a loophole, a reason to leave besides 'I want to'. Thus I am NOT applying myself to my R with W because I have my bags packed already. Hmm...that helps explain why I am still stand-offish towards her.

 

When you look at your wife as an authoritarian figure who's somehow MAKING you do something that you don't want to do... it's no wonder that you're harboring resentment. Further, what you're resentful of is only an ILLUSION. She can't MAKE you do a goddam thing you don't want to do. She can't.

 

Never thought about it in that light, LJ. But it does add more explanation to

why I feel the way I do about her when she isn't doing anything wrong.

 

Mom's wrong. You're only "stuck" because YOU say you are.

 

All of your concerns could be addressed. All of the problems have potential solutions. You could move to your wife's home state in order to be closer to the children. You could request a court order to prevent her from leaving the area. Yeah... it wouldn't be exactly the same as living in the home with your family... but there ARE serviceable solutions yet to be explored, solutions that work as well as whatever energy you're willing to bring to them.

 

Absolutely correct, again. I have gotten so used to the same four walls of this box it is refreshing to see outside it again.

 

You know... my husband and I had ALOT of water under the bridge at the time when I made MY CHOICES. And it was difficult and I had to remind myself daily for a long while, but having made my choices... I knew that I was bound by honor to take responsibility of those decisions with a FULL HEART.

I had decided that I was going to love this man, so I needed to "love" him ACTIVELY. I had decided I was going to forgive him for every single transgression that had gone before, so I forgave him and whispered my reminder into my own ear every day until it was a part of me. These are the things that I had elected to do of my own free will. To do less than what I'd set out to do didn't just let my husband down... it would've let ME down.

 

And knowing that about you only solidifies your advice on stuff like this. You not only have expert knowledge but also personal experience and a story to tell.

 

The line, "forgive him for every single transgression" is a tough one for me. And I am by no means the saint or sinless one here, so let's not think that. I know she has a lot from me she has decided to simply put up with or forgive or however she has decided to deal with it. And I am refusing her the same service. This is where I see I am having my battle. Moving on is easier than forgiving and staying. If I could take my son I would go but now there is another child soon to be involved. A whole different ballgame IMO.

 

So it doesn't come down to being stuck, it comes down to forgiveness. <sigh> That is going to be hard, LJ. Atleast now I know where the root of this lies. Thanks!!!

 

Now I'll tell you honestly... I agree with NID. A good therapist could help you sort all this stuff out. I think NID has an excellent point in the "self-medicating" properties of the extra-marital affair, and I think it's important that you rule that out as causal in your current feelings. Give it some thought. There's nothing to lose that's not lost right now.

 

My reluctance towards seeing a therapist is having to divulge all this to someone who now knows who I am. You don't know me here so I can open up and expose my weaknesses and struggles. In real-life, there's no way!!! I am too closed in and I have a terrible time trusting people with personal info. The therapist or counselor would ask too many personal questions, naturally, and I don't want to reveal that side of me, you know? The whole 'be strong, be a man, be in control' thing. I have a terrible control issue and for me showing a failure like that shows lack of control which leads to embarrassment which leads to being closed in. Stupid, I know, but that's my reason for not wanting to seek help outside of here.

[torranceshipman]

(Post for Empty): When you said you went to the attorney to file for D, you said she then convinced you to change you mind. No, you changed your own mind. Take decisive action - either stay or go - then commit fully to making that decision as great a situation as it possibly can be.

 

No-one is stuck, you still have a choice here. You don't love your W anymore, she doesn't love you, you've already had an A, and if you D, you can still both bring up the children when you are divorced, and give them a lot of love and support between you - that staying for the kids excuse is awful - makes everyone's life a misery - how exactly are the kids going to benefit from that?

 

Just make the choice and follow through.

[Tomcat33]

Empty -

 

I have read your posts and they have been extremely eye opening, I thank you for sharing your candid thoughts on here. It's good to see what goes on inside the WS mind for a change, spoken from the prespective of the WS as opposed to the BS posting for the WS.

 

I do still need to make more decisions here and then apply myself to their fruition. I am looking for a loophole, a reason to leave besides 'I want to'

 

 

I am trying to understand...does there really have to be any more than that? I don't understand why there has to be something other than that?

 

It appears to me you are looking for some deep meaning as to why you should go with what you feel, when in actuality what you are doing is looking for an excuse not to make a decision. Should you choose to stay you could always blame your W for the failure of the rel. But should you choose to go, you would have to face yourself if the decision was a wrong one...

 

And another observation if I may:

 

Could your reluctance in seeing a therapist be less about opening up to some stranger and more because should you choose to go down that path it means you actually took a stance to make a choice?

[Ladyjane14]

We have discussed this before and I agree, but why is it that I DON'T want to love her? What now? OW is on her way out so she isn't in the picture anymore. Is it just that I liked the idea of leaving and I am still holding out for it? Looking for my chance to get out, wanting a valid reason?

 

I can't tell you 'why'. Only YOU know that. I think it's pretty clear that it's NOT about the OW though. If it was about her, as a particular and singular individual... the feelings of unease would have probably dissipated with her departure from the scene.

 

I think it IS likely that you're holding out for the "idea of leaving", but THAT.. in and of itself.. is not a reason. There has to be a reason for wanting to leave.

 

You know, if I had to hazard a guess.. and just based on what you've posted... I'd say that it's not about the OW herself, it's about the infatuation response. You had that whole 'butterflies-in-the-stomach, weak-at-the-knees' type thing going on when you were interacting with OW. As you face the prospect of NEVER experiencing 'first kisses' or 'first sexual encounters' or "falling in love" again, I think maybe you're seeing the future yawn before you as bleak and boring.

 

During the infatuation phase.... we're still just getting to know a person. We might like what we see, but we don't KNOW them well enough to love them for an entire lifetime. That takes a while. Now it could be that you married your wife and didn't get to know her well enough. It could be that in your eyes, she doesn't have personality traits which warrant respect, admiration, and love.

 

But... it could also be that this recent infatuation you experienced made you feel soooo good that you didn't want to give those feelings up. And having done so for the sake of preserving your family dynamic, you're feeling resentful towards your wife and bleak at the prospect of NEVER experiencing those good feelings again.

 

All this 'woulda, shoulda, coulda' is why I thought it would be a good idea for you to get some guidance in sorting things out. You know... we're talking about a field of medicine in which there is an ethical standard in place regarding confidentiality. Your concerns about "opening up" are understandable, but not necessarily sensible... because they are NOT in your best interests right now.

 

The line, "forgive him for every single transgression" is a tough one for me. And I am by no means the saint or sinless one here, so let's not think that. I know she has a lot from me she has decided to simply put up with or forgive or however she has decided to deal with it. And I am refusing her the same service. This is where I see I am having my battle. Moving on is easier than forgiving and staying.

 

This kind of forgiveness decision is similar to the love decision, like loving "actively". Love, Trust, Forgive... these are all VERBS, right?

I think it just makes sense that since you haven't made a decision yet about what you really want in life, you're having trouble applying a verb. How can you choose an action when you're still sitting on the fence?

 

 

I don't think that in your heart of hearts you believe me when I tell you that love can be recaptured. Now, I'm not saying it always works that way. But, it happened for me. And my husband is a sometimes very difficult, occasionally selfish, and overall "high-maintenance" man. Warts and all though, when the fat hits the fire... I love him to the last little hair on his head.

 

It's not like "falling in love" though. These days, the butterflies might be fewer and farther between, but that's not what we're all about anymore. Maybe "recaptured" isn't the word... maybe the real word is "redefined".

 

Mature love isn't about weak knees and sweaty palms. It's about comfort, emotional support, unity, companionship, family, mutual acceptance... all those boring things that when added together become so deeply ingrained in your psyche that this other human being becomes an integral part of you. It's something I have a difficult time describing but it represents an evolution of 'who you are'. I am THIS individual, but I am also THAT 'couple entity', and I exist on both planes.

 

Butterflies are nice, but they don't compare to that. They just don't.

 

But... as a nice bonus, a little icing on the cake... there are STILL a few butterflies to round up now and then, even for people who have been married more as long as we have.

Because now and then, you see something in your partner that you've never seen before, or something you'd forgotten you knew so it's like you're seeing it for the first time. You'd be surprised at how often those butterflies will turn up when you're actively LOOKING for them.

 

Anyway... this really is your call. You have alot more control than you think you do. Whether it's to stay or go.. or what verbs you'll choose to live by. Just remember that you get back what you put in when you're dealing with apathy. A non-choice is still a choice, right.? It's just a choice to do nothing.

[frannie]

I can't tell you 'why'. Only YOU know that. I think it's pretty clear that it's NOT about the OW though. If it was about her, as a particular and singular individual... the feelings of unease would have probably dissipated with her departure from the scene.

 

I think it IS likely that you're holding out for the "idea of leaving", but THAT.. in and of itself.. is not a reason. There has to be a reason for wanting to leave.

 

You know, if I had to hazard a guess.. and just based on what you've posted... I'd say that it's not about the OW herself, it's about the infatuation response. You had that whole 'butterflies-in-the-stomach, weak-at-the-knees' type thing going on when you were interacting with OW. As you face the prospect of NEVER experiencing 'first kisses' or 'first sexual encounters' or "falling in love" again, I think maybe you're seeing the future yawn before you as bleak and boring..

 

He's already said it's not about the OW. He's moved on past that individual and into 'yes, I want to leave' because what he has now is really not satisfying him at all whatsoever.

 

And I'm sorry to be talking again about someone else's love life that I have no knowledge of! BUT... I am absolutely sure, from my own history, as well as listening to my MM's situation.. .people at some point need to move on from unsatisfying relationships. They really do. People grow and change. Relationships become stagnant, unfulfilling, incompatable. And it doesn't matter that one (or rather both) once said 'I do'... if you take 'I do' to forever, then really, all you are doing is making sure two people are tied together... not that they are going to be happy, necessarily.

 

If you can't see that some couples really shouldnt' be together for eternity then your advice seems a little unrealistic to me.

[Ladyjane14]

If you can't see that some couples really shouldnt' be together for eternity then your advice seems a little unrealistic to me.

 

I have utterly NO CLUE as to what you're talking about.

 

If your comment is directed at me and my "advice" to Empty, I fail to see what I've said that you should be having a problem with. I'm not telling this guy what to do.

 

In a nutshell, I've recommended that he 'clarify his thought process', that he 'get some counseling', and that he 'be wary of apathy'.

 

I dunno. Maybe you've got some kind of emotional investment in seeing this guy leave his wife. All I can tell you about that is... I don't. I could care less. It's no skin off my nose. It doesn't affect my life.

He posts questions, I tell him what I think. End of story.

[frannie]

As I said 'IF' you can't see that some couples aren't really suited to be together forever... no matter how much they try, or whatever...

 

... I don't know, because I haven't made a study, of LJ posts about marriage. And if you recall, I asked you in PM to take a look at some people's posts because I felt your method of help was very useful to some at certain times. But...

 

... as I say. I feel that some times something needs to just be let go of... and I don't know how you feel about that LJ.

 

And no, I have no investment in how empty's story turns out. My MM is not one to take a whole lot of notice of anything that happens on a forum... as you may have seen.

[puddleofmud]

My personal and humble opinion is that you should seek individual counseling.

Despite your so called "control" issues it would seem that your life is very OUT of your control.

One fact being that your wife has been taking fertility drugs without your knowlege? Odd, most fertility clinics do not do so without both spouses cooperation, where both visit the office and participate.

You knew this and continued sex with your wife.

Come on--are we to believe you an innocent "victim"?

Someone used a credit card or signed the checks as this type of treatment is VERY expensive and not covered by insurance and these medications are injected daily and usually takes another to inject them into one's body...

Fact is you did know, so don't whine about the results or that your OW has become distant (who wouldn't???)

Too LATE, hun, for excuses.

Instinct tells me that you are lying out your proverbial BUTT.

Best of luck in court!

As one would not want any therapist to be issued summons, being that you are so "stuck" with two children and both made willingly?

Leave, if you don't love your wife and pay fair support.

 

 

 

Hey, LJ! Once again you have given me a post I had to sit and ponder on a little while it all sank in.

 

 

 

We have discussed this before and I agree, but why is it that I DON'T want to love her? What now? OW is on her way out so she isn't in the picture anymore. Is it just that I liked the idea of leaving and I am still holding out for it? Looking for my chance to get out, wanting a valid reason?

 

 

 

I do still need to make more decisions here and then apply myself to their fruition. I am looking for a loophole, a reason to leave besides 'I want to'. Thus I am NOT applying myself to my R with W because I have my bags packed already. Hmm...that helps explain why I am still stand-offish towards her.

 

 

 

Never thought about it in that light, LJ. But it does add more explanation to

why I feel the way I do about her when she isn't doing anything wrong.

 

 

 

Absolutely correct, again. I have gotten so used to the same four walls of this box it is refreshing to see outside it again.

 

 

 

And knowing that about you only solidifies your advice on stuff like this. You not only have expert knowledge but also personal experience and a story to tell.

 

The line, "forgive him for every single transgression" is a tough one for me. And I am by no means the saint or sinless one here, so let's not think that. I know she has a lot from me she has decided to simply put up with or forgive or however she has decided to deal with it. And I am refusing her the same service. This is where I see I am having my battle. Moving on is easier than forgiving and staying. If I could take my son I would go but now there is another child soon to be involved. A whole different ballgame IMO.

 

So it doesn't come down to being stuck, it comes down to forgiveness. <sigh> That is going to be hard, LJ. Atleast now I know where the root of this lies. Thanks!!!

 

 

 

My reluctance towards seeing a therapist is having to divulge all this to someone who now knows who I am. You don't know me here so I can open up and expose my weaknesses and struggles. In real-life, there's no way!!! I am too closed in and I have a terrible time trusting people with personal info. The therapist or counselor would ask too many personal questions, naturally, and I don't want to reveal that side of me, you know? The whole 'be strong, be a man, be in control' thing. I have a terrible control issue and for me showing a failure like that shows lack of control which leads to embarrassment which leads to being closed in. Stupid, I know, but that's my reason for not wanting to seek help outside of here.

[empty906]

My personal and humble opinion is that you should seek individual counseling.

Despite your so called "control" issues it would seem that your life is very OUT of your control.

 

I don't see my life as out of control, POM. It is a very stable life, nothing is going to fall apart tomorrow and we aren't dangle off the edge of some cliff here. I had gotten down about some stuff I had mulled around in my head and thought I would post it here to get a better perspective on it. Most of the stuff I post is one-sided, it is only going on in my mind. I can stop thinking about it and maintain the normal that exists here which is perfectly acceptable. I was only questioning my thoughts on changing it.

 

One fact being that your wife has been taking fertility drugs without your knowlege? Odd, most fertility clinics do not do so without both spouses cooperation, where both visit the office and participate.

You knew this and continued sex with your wife.

 

She still says she never began taking the fertility medication. She has shown me a prescription which she never filled. She has been to a fertility clinic a couple of times but she got to the point where I had to attend and I refused. She has been given this prescription by one of her other doctors.

 

As far as having sex with W and then playing 'victim', that is not my attitude towards any of the events that have happened. Considering W medical condition overall, it is a flat miracle she got pregnant. Seriously!!! The ONLY way any of her doctors said she could have another child was through harvesting an egg. They all have agreed on this and have so for years and years. The drug she was prescribed to take was to force her body to release an egg, from what I can understand.

 

I was confused, or puzzled, when she became pregnant. For years now that HAS NOT been possible. When I wrote that earlier post I had just been told and was trying to figure out what she had done differently. I am not trying to play a victim, POM.

 

Come on--are we to believe you an innocent "victim"?

Someone used a credit card or signed the checks as this type of treatment is VERY expensive and not covered by insurance and these medications are injected daily and usually takes another to inject them into one's body...

 

I am sure it is a very expensive procedure but as far as we have been told our insurance covers it. We have really good insurance, maybe that is why. I don't know what to tell you. She paid $20 when she went to the doctor, which is normal. She would have paid up to $50 for the prescription and that would have been all of our out-of-pocket expenses.

 

Allowing her to continue under my good insurance was part of my decision on leaving. She would have an extremely difficult time paying for her visits and medications otherwise. I was picking up her medicine one day and the pharmacist was in a particularly good mood and asked me if knew how much that medicine would cost without my insurance. He said $1700. I paid him $50 and that was one of five she was taking.

 

Fact is you did know, so don't whine about the results or that your OW has become distant (who wouldn't???)

Too LATE, hun, for excuses.

Instinct tells me that you are lying out your proverbial BUTT.

Best of luck in court!

As one would not want any therapist to be issued summons, being that you are so "stuck" with two children and both made willingly?

Leave, if you don't love your wife and pay fair support.

 

Damn, POM. I have really pissed you off somehow. The OW has become distant because it is over, we both have left. I am still finishing my part of dealing with it but that portion of my life is over now.

 

Lying? Going to court? Therapist issued a summons? Where did all that come from?!?

 

I really don't think you care to hear my response to all that you have said but the last part you are really mistaken on. I never have felt or indicated that I was 'stuck' with my son. Never. The stuck part came about because I may have been able to get a judge to grant me custody of my son but certainly not a newborn. You may have misread what I wrote or I could have not been as clear in my choice of words, either way you should be fair and understand that this whole thread here was my question about selfishness on my part. I wanted to create a perfect world for myself using bits and pieces but that is not possible and I was just looking for some help on here with sorting my thoughts. Which I have gotten, by the way. But this last little shout-out by you wouldn't help anyone so why even post something like this?