Mustang Sally Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Not exactly sure where to post this, but as we're still married and not offically separated, I will put it here. So about 3 weeks ago I told H I am ready for separation. He was shocked. Not because I haven't been giving warning signs for the last well, few years or so, but because he never listened to them until the crap hit the fan. Anyway, he went into "salvage" mode and has been doing/saying/being all the right things since then. He even got himself into IC. Obviously, I still (have) love (for) him, because I have been softening to these actions of his. We had a big talk the other night (have done this multiple times since the "announcement" by me) and were talking about how much of our M the sex has been unsatisfying for both. When we married, he was much more experienced than I, and I was rather intimidated by it. Before we married, he had disclosed a fair amount of information about his sexual/relationship past and how he had one R that he almost married the girl. He never really went into details, but said he "came to his senses" and ended it. He clearly fell hard for this girl, and they had a very consuming relationship. (He uses that word - consuming - whenever he talks about her.) Anyway, this scared me a bit, but I reasoned that he was now with me, I had never pulled any punches about my nature and our R was pretty honest, I thought. She would creep into my thoughts occasionally (early on in dating and early M), and I worried alot that I was being compared to her, but after many years, got over it. I can honestly say I hadn't thought about that R of his for probaby 8 or 9 years. Then the other night he basically told me that our sex life has always been horrible in comparison to the consuming (his exact word!) relationship he had with her, until the recent past when I was trying very hard to improve things between us, before I asked for the separation. And he had just resigned himself to the fact that he was never going to have another satisfying sexual R like he had had in that previous R and that he had decided that he was ok with it because there are so many other things in our M that are wonderful (?). He told me that he had decided that this lack of satisfaction in the sex arena of our M was his penance for all the wild stuff he had done before me. Yeah, right, m*therf*cker. So, needless to say, it cut me to the core. Now I feel like if we were to try to reconcile this M, this other f*cking (no pun intended) person will be in our bedroom forevermore - if not in his mind, then in mine - that I'm being compared, that I'm not measuring up....whatever. Yes, I have tremendous insecurity in this way. I have never been a sexually extroverted person. Now I feel like I have been absolutely stripped bare and exposed and have been found to be insufficient and hopelessly inadequate. There are other problems in our M (he's emotionally distant, I am too independent and headstrong, etc.), but this sex-thing is such a deep, hurtful thing to me, I don't know how to get over it in my mind if there is any hope for us to fix this M. Anyone with any magic pill for this? I guess I need to just get over myself?
Author Mustang Sally Posted April 2, 2007 Author Posted April 2, 2007 !!! So, do you think this is grounds for a divorce? I can't believe how freaking wishy washy I've become since I told him I wanted him to move out. I'm worried that I'll make an irreversible mistake that I'll regret forever, blah blah blah. He is doing so well with everything else. And I worry about our kids growing up without mom and dad together, etc. God, I'm such a f*cking mess.
a4a Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Lets see you send up smoke signals for years that you are not happy...... he consistantly compares you to an old flame...... you don't know who you are or where you are going, you seem to think it all hinges on how he reacts to you or what he does. (who is in control of this R?) Your kids would be better off seeing how two people can respect and love each other..... You need some IC - if you plan to make the M work.... go to MC. You are dealing with a guy that finally gets a clue at the 11th hour and then turns the tables and blames you. (this is not a male thing but a person thing- for all the males out there thinking"another chick is defending a chick and hates men) What do you want? Is it actually attainable? and did you tell him he has a little dick, your last lover was much more endowed and that is why you don't really care to turn up the heat in the bedroom....... no sense getting excited over a Vienna sausage when you already had a bratwurst in bed........ :lmao:
jmargel Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Good chance he's saying these things out of hurt, not what he actually feels. By you threatening divorce it has put him on edge. I would highly suggest marriage counseling and good chance he will end up saying the same thing I just told you.
Author Mustang Sally Posted April 2, 2007 Author Posted April 2, 2007 Thanks all, for those insights. It helps to have others give opinions. a4a - You're right, it does seem like I think that everything hinges on what he does. Actually, when I told him, my mind was made up - so I thought. Then he refuses to comply with moving out and keeps telling me we should give it a try, gets himself a councelor, and starts opening up more to me. I start thinking, if it could work, wouldn't that be better than going it alone? For me and for the kids? I mean, I know I can be by myself, but it hasn't always been pure crap between us, it was good at times in the past. Also, he's really not a bad guy. He just took it too much for granted that this M would always be there, even with no care or effort. jmargel - you have a good point. He may be "grasping at straws" here. He knows to talk about that stuff will hurt me significantly. I truly thought I had moved past being bothered by his past years ago. It surprised me to find that it is still there, under the surface. So I wonder if I should just get over it, and try to grow up about it. After all, we all have a past - it makes us who we are today, right?
a4a Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Thanks all, for those insights. It helps to have others give opinions. a4a - You're right, it does seem like I think that everything hinges on what he does. Actually, when I told him, my mind was made up - so I thought. Then he refuses to comply with moving out and keeps telling me we should give it a try, gets himself a councelor, and starts opening up more to me. I start thinking, if it could work, wouldn't that be better than going it alone? For me and for the kids? I mean, I know I can be by myself, but it hasn't always been pure crap between us, it was good at times in the past. Also, he's really not a bad guy. He just took it too much for granted that this M would always be there, even with no care or effort. jmargel - you have a good point. He may be "grasping at straws" here. He knows to talk about that stuff will hurt me significantly. I truly thought I had moved past being bothered by his past years ago. It surprised me to find that it is still there, under the surface. So I wonder if I should just get over it, and try to grow up about it. After all, we all have a past - it makes us who we are today, right? Sure we all have a past but you do not throw it in the face of your spouse and say they will never compare to how so and so was in bed. So he is in IC or MC? Grow some balls and start bluntly telling him how you feel...... if you want to save it, get to MC ASAP don't dick around waiting until he "decides"......this is your life too!
Author Mustang Sally Posted April 2, 2007 Author Posted April 2, 2007 Alright. Point taken. He is in IC, specifically for these marital issues. Actually, when he said that crap about this previously consuming sex he has had, I told him that was a f*cking low blow, that I didn't go around telling him his penis is completely inadequate and he's a horrible lover (sometimes I think that stuff - about his lover-skills, but truthfully his penis is just fine). Just wanted you to know that I did give it back a bit. Not really proud of it, but I was provoked to that point. And I'm not sure he was trying to throw it in my face...maybe I'm biasing my presentation here too much in my favor? He was, though, admitting what we both know: that sex has been a problem for us for the majority of our M. I had made a huge effort to improve my portion of this the last 1 to 1 1/2 yrs, and it was getting a bit better before I realized I was exhausted from all this put out with what I felt was little/no return. Then I felt bad because isn't that what you promise to do when you marry? Keep giving until it hurts, then give some more?
polywog Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Hi Mustang, I don't think that you can "just get over it" without a third party (MC) or at best IC, tho because it's such a big (HUGE) burr under the marriage saddle, I say MC. I agree with jmargel that he probably said that awful (awful, f*ckin' awful) thing to you out of some desperate need to skewer you because of the D idea. This does not make it acceptable, but it's a reason. I also think he constantly brought up Mz.Consuming as a way to keep you down, whether he did it conciously or not. Keep you in your place. Nothing like some "idealized" R that's not around to annoy him or disappoint him in the usual ways, to use as a baseball bat to swing over your head. She's not around to snore, leave dirty dishes, argue with him... she's some friggin' idealized ghost in his head. He has a lot of crap to face and a lot of apologising and making it up to you to do if he wants to keep the M intact, and you have a lot to heal from. Plus you will have to see past his hurtful words and actions if he tries to make ammends and learn to face his sh*t (it will probably be really hard for him). I hear you about wanting to keep the M for all the reasons, and hope that if you two do MC the love will blossom again through the cracks and be stronger than ever. Because, call me an optimist, but I think it could happen if you both want it to.
Mr. Lucky Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Then the other night he basically told me that our sex life has always been horrible in comparison to the consuming (his exact word!) relationship he had with her, until the recent past when I was trying very hard to improve things between us, before I asked for the separation. Well. trying (really hard ) to put a positive spin on his statement, maybe he was trying (in a really poorly constructed way) to say that he appreciated the effort you were recently putting into that part of your relationship. By your own admission, you were trying hard to improve things. I also wonder about the context in which his unfortunate stsement was made. Sometimes when we ask our partner to be truthful with us, we aren't prepared for the emotional blow the information can convey. Did you prod him to tell you? The old proverb may apply, "Be careful what you wish for"... Mr, Lucky
polywog Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 I realized I was exhausted from all this put out with what I felt was little/no return. Then I felt bad because isn't that what you promise to do when you marry? Keep giving until it hurts, then give some more? ...and one more thing! NO, marriage is not giving until it hurts!! It's giving because you love and your spouse gives to you, too! It's giving and recieving, not as easy for us all to do as it seems since we humans are encumbered with baggage, but it's the ideal. How can sex for you ever blossom when Mz.Consuming is bascly in bed with you? When I was married, my H was someone who seemed like a giver, but the problem was that he was a bottomless pit who never felt loved, and blamed me. What I gave was never enough. Sex, which was great in the beginning, became a proving ground of how much I loved him. I had something awful happen which derailed me from wanting sex all the time for a while. Instead of being sympathetic, he became a monster, accusing me of not loving him enough. He actually kept a calendar where he marked the days where we had sex and even whether I gave him a bj or not, and waved it in my face one day when I didn't want sex, as proof that I didn't love him enough. Sick. But at the time, I was not able to see it as the creepy bullying it was. Needless to say, our sex life sucked for the rest of the marriage. Your situation is different, but I related so much to your post. How can anyone feel safe to have sex with someone who makes you feel inadequate? Your H needs to come to terms with a lot of stuff, and perhaps he can and will, and I hope that you will raise your bar of what you know you deserve. I hate that Mz.Consuming, by the way. If you ever want someone to help you track her down & beat her up, let me know .
Author Mustang Sally Posted April 2, 2007 Author Posted April 2, 2007 I also wonder about the context in which his unfortunate stsement was made. Sometimes when we ask our partner to be truthful with us, we aren't prepared for the emotional blow the information can convey. Did you prod him to tell you? The old proverb may apply, "Be careful what you wish for"... I hear ya, Mister Lucky. But I have to say, I don't remember it as being that way the other night. I learned a LOOOONG time ago not to ask questions like, "Hon, do you think these jeans make my ass look big? Huh, sweetie?" As a matter of fact, he brought up the subject of unsatisfying sex as being a major issue in the M this time. Not that I disagree, as he knows. I haven't been, um, "satisfied" for the majority of the marriage. I thought he was just commiserating with me, at first, admitting that for years, he just "got his" and didn't worry about "mine" because he thought I had too many mental hang ups (I did have many mental hang ups at the time) and so he felt he had been too selfish in that arena in the past. Then he launched into the bit about how this whole unsatisfying sex-thing was probably his payback for the good stuff he had in a previous relationship, where he almost married this girl (even had a ring, apparently). I, of course, knew immediately which previous R he was referring to. Talk about dredging it up! But like a say, he really isn't a complete abusive jerk-off. He's just been very self-unaware and thus I have felt, for years, that wanting more (not just sexually) out of the M was being selfish of me.
Author Mustang Sally Posted April 2, 2007 Author Posted April 2, 2007 Sex, which was great in the beginning, became a proving ground of how much I loved him. I definitely have felt that. I think it may have contributed a bit to my problems of not wanting to have sex 24/7 for awhile. And thanks for the support, Polywog! Fortunately, I never knew this girl. I think that's a good thing, although he has told me we are very similar in many aspects (looks and personality). On the other hand, not knowing her, it's easy for her to become that "perfect woman" in my mind, that I will never measure up to. I know I need to get thyself to counseling. To be totally honest, there is a part of me that feels like not going because I'm worried that we'll stay together and I'll burn 10 more years, and then it'll all go to crap again and I (who is no Spring Chicken already) will just be that much older and entrenched...
Trialbyfire Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 I definitely have felt that. I think it may have contributed a bit to my problems of not wanting to have sex 24/7 for awhile. And thanks for the support, Polywog! Fortunately, I never knew this girl. I think that's a good thing, although he has told me we are very similar in many aspects (looks and personality). On the other hand, not knowing her, it's easy for her to become that "perfect woman" in my mind, that I will never measure up to. I know I need to get thyself to counseling. To be totally honest, there is a part of me that feels like not going because I'm worried that we'll stay together and I'll burn 10 more years, and then it'll all go to crap again and I (who is no Spring Chicken already) will just be that much older and entrenched... You're battling a transitional phantom. The epitome of perfection because he can manipulate her any way he wants to, to make her his ideal. Is he commitment phobic?
a4a Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 I definitely have felt that. I think it may have contributed a bit to my problems of not wanting to have sex 24/7 for awhile. And thanks for the support, Polywog! Fortunately, I never knew this girl. I think that's a good thing, although he has told me we are very similar in many aspects (looks and personality). On the other hand, not knowing her, it's easy for her to become that "perfect woman" in my mind, that I will never measure up to. I know I need to get thyself to counseling. To be totally honest, there is a part of me that feels like not going because I'm worried that we'll stay together and I'll burn 10 more years, and then it'll all go to crap again and I (who is no Spring Chicken already) will just be that much older and entrenched... you don't want to leave because? money, you're old, cannot do better, kids, because you think it will get better...... you want it to get better.... fear...... fear... fear...... fear? Honey you got one life, time to take it by the reins. Make a decision to be happy and do what it takes to get there.
Author Mustang Sally Posted April 2, 2007 Author Posted April 2, 2007 You're battling a transitional phantom. The epitome of perfection because he can manipulate her any way he wants to, to make her his ideal. Is he commitment phobic? You are spot-on about the transitional phantom. But what can I do about it? And, now that I think about it (I'm having an online epiphany, here), she is not really that far under the surface for him either, to bring it up again at a time like this! Jezuz. I feel like such a f*cking fool. What a putz I am! He talks a good game though, that one, with the "I can't believe I may have messed up the best thing in my life" (meaning our M) and the "I can change. Give me a chance. I didn't care before, but now I do. Give me a chance to keep my promise (meaning our M vows) to you and you to keep your promise to me (guilt)" I feel manipulated because this is an ego thing for him, on some level. No, I don't think he is commitment phobic, but at this point, really, what the hell do I know??? He grew up in a (majorly) broken home, I didn't. He told me he ended it with Ms. Consuming (like that moniker!) because he knew he ultimately wasn't mature enough for that kind of R at the time. By the way, this was about 1 to one and a half yrs before he met me, no serious R's between the 2 of us. Another epiphany! Maybe I'm just his transitional person? WTF!
Author Mustang Sally Posted April 2, 2007 Author Posted April 2, 2007 you don't want to leave because? I hear you. If it weren't me in this situation, I'd be sitting there thinking the same as you, a4a. Thank you for the 2x4 to my head. I mean that sincerely. I need some hot poker to my ass to get on with it. But I gotta tell you. It really scares the hell out of me. I worry about the kids. How would I survive their pain? I worry about the pure logistics of two parents who live separate but are very much involved in their kids' lives. I worry about losing myself in the single parenting scene (meaning, losing any chance for any kind of life that I was D'ing H for). He would be quite involved, I'm sure, but they would live with me, and not having anyone else to help get them places, do their homework, coach their teams, etc... overwhelms me. I even worry about the judgement that my family and friends would issue to me. I know, seems ridiculous and that the decision should be easy. But I want to be careful and not make a mistake this time.
Trialbyfire Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 You are spot-on about the transitional phantom. But what can I do about it? And, now that I think about it (I'm having an online epiphany, here), she is not really that far under the surface for him either, to bring it up again at a time like this! Jezuz. I feel like such a f*cking fool. What a putz I am! He talks a good game though, that one, with the "I can't believe I may have messed up the best thing in my life" (meaning our M) and the "I can change. Give me a chance. I didn't care before, but now I do. Give me a chance to keep my promise (meaning our M vows) to you and you to keep your promise to me (guilt)" I feel manipulated because this is an ego thing for him, on some level. No, I don't think he is commitment phobic, but at this point, really, what the hell do I know??? He grew up in a (majorly) broken home, I didn't. He told me he ended it with Ms. Consuming (like that moniker!) because he knew he ultimately wasn't mature enough for that kind of R at the time. By the way, this was about 1 to one and a half yrs before he met me, no serious R's between the 2 of us. Another epiphany! Maybe I'm just his transitional person? WTF! While I don't know him personally, someone commitment phobic will hang onto a third party in order to not have to take the full plunge of loving someone. If you prefer, emotional coward, staggering his love over more than one individual to ensure that if you hurt him, he's always got Ms. Consuming, who will never leave him. It's something to bring up if/when you two are in MC because he's got to let her go first before he can fully invest in you.
a4a Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 oh Sally it is not an easy decison but doing nothing won't work either. Your H needs to get his head outta his ass..... if he chooses not to you need to live and be happy. See how they control things (not men but the person not willing to hear). All becomes YOUR responsibility. Is he passive aggressive?
Author Mustang Sally Posted April 2, 2007 Author Posted April 2, 2007 While I don't know him personally, someone commitment phobic will hang onto a third party in order to not have to take the full plunge of loving someone. If you prefer, emotional coward, staggering his love over more than one individual to ensure that if you hurt him, he's always got Ms. Consuming, who will never leave him. It's something to bring up if/when you two are in MC because he's got to let her go first before he can fully invest in you. Very interesting take, TBF. I've never thought of it this way! Meaning, spreading the love. I was pissed about how much she obviously affected him for a few years (not a constant pissed-off-ness, just when it would occasionally rear it's ugly head) but then forgot about it. We had kid number one, I left both of our pre-each other selves and lives in the dust. Until now. I thought his head-up-ass'd ness was just due to his own dysfunctional family unit and flaky mom. I felt (and still do) that it was/is amazing he is as normal and functional as he is with all that family garbage. I will sure bring it up if I go to MC. But is it worth going to MC if you think you're just going to be looking for an exit door to the M? Where the F*ck was he when I was begging for counseling a year ago? Sorry, some bitterness escaped, there.
Author Mustang Sally Posted April 2, 2007 Author Posted April 2, 2007 Is he passive aggressive? Sometimes. But (gotta be honest) so am I sometimes. One way to put it: In our R, he is usually the Taker and I am usually the Giver. And I would like that to be a more equal balance, on the whole.
Trialbyfire Posted April 2, 2007 Posted April 2, 2007 Very interesting take, TBF. I've never thought of it this way! Meaning, spreading the love. I was pissed about how much she obviously affected him for a few years (not a constant pissed-off-ness, just when it would occasionally rear it's ugly head) but then forgot about it. We had kid number one, I left both of our pre-each other selves and lives in the dust. Until now. I thought his head-up-ass'd ness was just due to his own dysfunctional family unit and flaky mom. I felt (and still do) that it was/is amazing he is as normal and functional as he is with all that family garbage. I will sure bring it up if I go to MC. But is it worth going to MC if you think you're just going to be looking for an exit door to the M? Where the F*ck was he when I was begging for counseling a year ago? Sorry, some bitterness escaped, there. Only you know what you honestly want to do. I am currently taking the exit out because I don't believe my ex can change and even if he did, I'm not certain I could continue to trust him, which is my issue. We have no children so it's not as complex. I can't in good conscience advise you to stay the course or leave. If you feel he's worth it to stick it out, do so and go to MC. But if you do decide this, you have to be willing to fully let go of your bitterness, step back and realize that he's not the whole person he portrays to everyone else. He technically needs an emotional blankie and is unwilling to step into the adult world of real emotion. Once he lets go of his blankie, you never know what kind of amazing guy you'll find under the child. Btw, I understand the anger and the bitterness. I had it full on and lashed out at everyone. Pure raw hatred and blinding anger so I can't criticize you for it one bit.
Mr. Lucky Posted April 3, 2007 Posted April 3, 2007 But I gotta tell you. It really scares the hell out of me. I worry about the kids. How would I survive their pain? I worry about the pure logistics of two parents who live separate but are very much involved in their kids' lives. I worry about losing myself in the single parenting scene (meaning, losing any chance for any kind of life that I was D'ing H for). He would be quite involved, I'm sure, but they would live with me, and not having anyone else to help get them places, do their homework, coach their teams, etc... overwhelms me. I even worry about the judgement that my family and friends would issue to me. I know, seems ridiculous and that the decision should be easy. But I want to be careful and not make a mistake this time. Those things aren't ridiculous, M'Sally, they just prove that you are a good person and a caring parent. Divorce with kids involved is an agonizing, terrifying, debillitating, disorienting life experience. But at least it's part of living - marriage with no future is just a slow death. In the long run, two-household families just become part of the landscape of your kid's lives. It takes work but can be very sucessfully done. Sounds like you're weighing all the issues and options carefully... Mr. Lucky
Woggle Posted April 3, 2007 Posted April 3, 2007 I think that he is bitter about what he sees as being walked out on and decides to go for a low blow. When people are hurting they tend to say these things.
Author Mustang Sally Posted April 3, 2007 Author Posted April 3, 2007 So, I confronted H last night about whether or not he still hid a flame for this chick. He looked me square in the eye and vehemently stated that he did not. He said he realized that was a stupid thing to bring up and that yes, he did do it to hurt me (it worked!) because he knew that was something that would (I have been rather emotionless with our discussions thus far - all cried out months ago). But he also restated that the sex with her was great. (Like I forgot the last time he made that point?) But that I shouldn't get upset about it because it was just sex. There was no true emotional connection, and that is why he ultimately broke it off with her. Initially, he thought she was the one because they were so sexually compatible. Apparently, this girl can orgasm in a light breeze. Me - on the other hand - I require a practiced, finessed hand (or tongue, as the case may be). I guess this is what makes me deficient? That effort is actually required by one or both of us? WTF! I can't catch a break in life! Anyway, I'm trying to not let it become more than just that, in the paragraph above. Just sex. ****ing awesome sex, but still just sex. Maybe I'd feel better if I too had had a partner that I thought I'd had ****ing awesome sex with? Not fair, I know. But I still stand that it was a low blow.
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