norajane Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 Something about the falseness digs under my skin and just decays there. Yes, that's it exactly.
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 And as for mom, why do you NOT like her? I'm not saying you didn't just make up this example, but to offer some food for thought... I would explain to my SO what it was about "mom" that drove me nuts. That's honest, but it allows your other half to support you by giving them the opportunity to try to work things out with you or mom or both. Good idea in theory. But talking about why you don't like mom easily leads to rationalisations, i.e. lying; your W would expect talking to solve the problem, and be pissed if you didn't "get over it". So you make up things, maybe even pretend that you've gotten over it.
Trialbyfire Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 Give me brutal honesty anyday over a line of b/s. At least I know what I'm dealing with and can make my own choices appropriately. When you guys lie about important aspects of the relationship, a lot of times we know it and lose respect and trust for you even more. No respect and trust, no relationship. It's just not worth the grief of salvaging something with a liar.
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 Did anyone really even read that article?? Let's see, here are some of the finer points... When I ask why we're the only country whose relationships often collapse immediately under the weight of a discovered infidelity, he says that in other countries women have fewer rights. Men cheat, and women have no leverage to stop them or to complain. It's not a matter of tolerance but of unequal freedoms. He reminds me that in some countries, women are stoned to death for adultery. "So is it not possible for couples and individuals to handle this crisis on their own?" I ask. "It's possible," he answers. "In Singapore, where there's no support system, they do handle it on their own." I ask how. "With a staggering rate of suicide," he replies. The reason other countries look the other way is b/c women don't have a choice BUT to accept their cheating husbands. And that is OK? So they are better b/c men can cheat and get away with it? Please explain. If this thread is about total honesty, then why not be up front with a woman from the beginning by saying you have (or she) no intention of being faithful in the marriage. Funny how 'brutal honesty' only comes about AFTER the fact. I have no problem with people choosing open marriages as long as both agree before hand. But to say after someone has been unfaithful that NOW we will be totally honest is just an excuse to justify behavior and guilt the other person into forgiveness, IMO. I read the article too. (Good one, Storyrider) You seem to have missed the French gentleman, women certainly DO have a choice in France, and cheat almost as much as men. And don't get me started on Scandinavia... As to why you don't tell beforehand that you have no intention of being true, that's because when you say it, you really mean it. Blame it on naïvité.
silktricks Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 honesty implies honesty - full honesty. Brutal honesty implies honesty for the purpose of being cruel. If my H had said to me "Yes, honey, I had an affair and I loved it!" I would no longer be married. Those words are not necessary. The implication is obvious, as how many people when being totally selfish are going to be doing something they don't want to do? Obviously they were doing what they wanted at the time. And just as obviously, when they stop doing it (on their own, not due to pressure from their spouse), they are also doing what they want. The WS made the decision to be selfish. To say "and I loved it" is not being more honest, it's just being more cruel.
mockeryjones Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 But "I don't keep promises" is a bit disingenuous, you are implying that there exists people that keeps their promises at all times. Are you such a one? Honestly? i don't keep promises is exactly what cheating is. you promise to be faithful and you are not faithful, ergo you dont keep promises. (you in the general sense not the specific erik sense). do i keep my promises, the important ones, the ones that would hurt others if i did not, yes. the lesser ones, like remembering to take out the garbage every week no, i'm only human, i'm flawed like other humans, but i know where the line is for me and i can live with that. I disagree that humans has a need for internal consistency. It's an intellectual imperative only. it has been demonstrated experimentally that human beings of all races, ethinicities, and genders have a compelling need to be internally consistent. read almost any sales strategy book, or any of the get anyone to do anything style self help books and you'll find that most will reference studies in which it has been conclusively demonstrated that being internally consistent is a powerful psychological need that can be manipulated in at least 87% of the human population. one such study asked several hundred people to place a large ugly sign on their lawn promoted driver safety. those who were not prepped to be internally conistent agreed on 17% of the time, those who were prepped by having them place a small driver safety sticker on their house window later agreed 87% to the large ugly sign being placed on their property. the reason for the difference was that those who placed the sticker on their window invested in the idea that they care about safe driving, from their they would place the larger sign to remain consistent with that investment. why? i have no idea, but i am content to let the hardcore psychology buffs and professionals sort it out, i only care that it is demonstrable and utilitarian.
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 The infidelity is the injury. The ocean of lies that go along with it are the insult. OK, I'll take a womans word for it. I said, that that was what I believed, maybe I'm wrong. Still, some women go ballistic over trivival lies, almost as bad as if being cheated upon. BS= betrayed spouse, no? But what does WS stand for?
quankanne Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 when it comes to adultery, I'd much rather have blunt truth ("I'm having an affair and enjoying every minute of it") than be told after the fact so we can tackle the problem head on. I would hope that my partner would be as honest in answering my question of "Then why the hell are you still here?" and not trying to play both sides against the middle ... I don't go for that fence-sitting garbage. if I'm not wanted, I can learn to live with that; if his goal is to keep me AND his little something on the side ... nuh-uh, quank don't play that. You're either with me or you're not, period, and you need to decide before I make that decision FOR you. Life is too short to be subjected to that kind of bullshzt.
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 honesty implies honesty - full honesty. Brutal honesty implies honesty for the purpose of being cruel. If my H had said to me "Yes, honey, I had an affair and I loved it!" I would no longer be married. Those words are not necessary. No, agree. My words were chosen for the colouration. And provocation, of course.
silktricks Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 BS= betrayed spouse, no? But what does WS stand for? BS-betrayed spouse WS=wayward spouse
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 i don't keep promises is exactly what cheating is. you promise to be faithful and you are not faithful, ergo you dont keep promises. (you in the general sense not the specific erik sense). But maybe he means it when he promises to be faithful? It has been demonstrated experimentally that human beings of all races, ethinicities, and genders have a compelling need to be internally consistent. read almost any sales strategy book, or any of the get anyone to do anything style self help books and you'll find that most will reference studies in which it has been conclusively demonstrated that being internally consistent is a powerful psychological need that can be manipulated in at least 87% of the human population. I'll take your word. It could exlain why people lie so much, i.e. when they put on the great remorse-show - they had promised something else, and of course, it also bears on your earlier point wiz self-image. one such study asked several hundred people to place a large ugly sign on their lawn promoted driver safety. those who were not prepped to be internally conistent agreed on 17% of the time, those who were prepped by having them place a small driver safety sticker on their house window later agreed 87% to the large ugly sign being placed on their property. the reason for the difference was that those who placed the sticker on their window invested in the idea that they care about safe driving, from their they would place the larger sign to remain consistent with that investment. Interesting!
silktricks Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 And provocation, of course. Of course, and they worked, too.
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 Thanks for the response, everyone. Hope I have not been too offensive. Or dense.
Pink_Tulip Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 I read the article too. (Good one, Storyrider) You seem to have missed the French gentleman, women certainly DO have a choice in France, and cheat almost as much as men. And don't get me started on Scandinavia... As to why you don't tell beforehand that you have no intention of being true, that's because when you say it, you really mean it. Blame it on naïvité. A small percentage of countries where women are equal does not supercede the reality of the rest of the world. And honestly, if people enjoy living in countries like France where cheating by both spouses is acceptable, good for them. Not my cup of tea. But that really isn't the point, is it? You keep talking about brutal honesty, but when I pointed out being honest from the get go, you made the above comment. You seem to be intentionally ignoring the fact that there are MANY points in time during the context of an affair where one can be honest. How about, 'honey, I haven't been happy in the marriage lately, and I am finding myself attracted to other women. We need help.' Or, 'honey, I have met someone else that I have feelings for. I want to save our marriage and I don't want to cheat, but I need your help.' Or, 'honey, I have been seeing this other person for a few weeks and we have made hotel reservations for this weekend. Please, lets get some help in our marriage before I do soemthing that will destroy it permanently.' I could go on and on. I am not trying to pick a fight with you, but from my perspective, you are making this a black and white issue. Meaning, AFTER someone has been unfaithful, then let's be brutally honest. Who wants that? Again, after the fact honesty is, IMO, emotional manipulation to make the other person feel guilty and forgive. A truly honest person would be up front from the beginning as soon as they recognized things had gone off track in their marriage and temptation had set in. Do you see the difference and why I think an 'after the fact truther' is a hypocrite? Hope that makes sense.
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 I could say that being honest about what you are thinking is different from being honest about your actions, but that would be cheat. The observation that you and others made, that honesty would entail being honest beforehand is very good. Point taken. "Again, after the fact honesty is, IMO, emotional manipulation to make the other person feel guilty and forgive. " Also a very good point, that I agree with 100%. But it depends on how you do it. You should not seek forgiveness for infidelity, it puts the emotional onus on the BS. And I purposefully trying for black and white.
Pink_Tulip Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 I could say that being honest about what you are thinking is different from being honest about your actions, but that would be cheat. The observation that you and others made, that honesty would entail being honest beforehand is very good. Point taken. "Again, after the fact honesty is, IMO, emotional manipulation to make the other person feel guilty and forgive. " Also a very good point, that I agree with 100%. But it depends on how you do it. You should not seek forgiveness for infidelity, it puts the emotional onus on the BS. And I purposefully trying for black and white. Agreed. I think if we are talking in the contect of a marriage, we must expect ourselves and our spouses to always be open and honest about things relating to the marriage. It is very hard to do, but I know for my own marriage, and the few other happy marriages I know of, this is a continual conversation between the spouses. Yes it has hurt me in the past when my H came to me and said something was bothering him, just as I am sure I hurt him doing the same. But in the end, when both people feel heard and validated, and both people work to improve the relationship, it is stronger, happier, and more fulfilling in the end. And again, speaking from my own experience, when one waits until a betrayal has occured, it is almost always too late for honesty. And if you are purposefully trying to make this a black and white issue, you certainly got me all riled up in doing so.
Scrivdog Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 Interesting .. I wonder what would happen if we were totally honest. It may be painful at first, but at least the BS is out of the way right away. W: "Why did you cheat on me? Did you like it?" H: "Hell yeah I liked it and I still do. I cheated on you because I'm tired of your frigid, bitchy a**, what are you kidding me?" W: "I never liked sex with you. Plus you disgust me at every level. I just wanted a meal ticket, but my now the spandex-wearing bored housewife wenches I meet at Starbucks every day are going to laugh at me!" I'd say that more than one man had probably been icepicked for less than that level of honesty.
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 That's not what I meant at all. If mom is overbearing, for example, your SO should recognize the problem, admit that mom is a human after all, and have a quiet talk with mom about her behavior toward you. Just because it's you vs. mom doesn't mean mom is in the right. Part of the problem people have with communication is that they say things in a way that puts people on the defensive immediately. Saying how you feel when mom does or says 'X' rather than saying, for example, "Your mom is SUCH a bitch!" would go a lot further toward solving the problem. Naturally. I've never had serious problems with my MIL's but I had problem with one of my SO's set of posh friends. I can't really reform them, we were on completely different levels. And my SO was very social, she wanted to show me off a lot, we had like three or four appointments a month all of them vital, and all of them needed my presence. This was the SO that did not take to truth; she flipped when I said her friends and I was not compatible, always urging me to try once more. The problem never really got solved, and I always thought that, dammit, why doesn't she HEAR me.
alphamale Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 Naturally. I've never had serious problems with my MIL's but I had problem with one of my SO's set of posh friends. was your SO known as Posh Spice?
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 Interesting .. I wonder what would happen if we were totally honest. It may be painful at first, but at least the BS is out of the way right away. W: "Why did you cheat on me? Did you like it?" H: "Hell yeah I liked it and I still do. I cheated on you because I'm tired of your frigid, bitchy a**, what are you kidding me?" W: "I never liked sex with you. Plus you disgust me at every level. I just wanted a meal ticket, but my now the spandex-wearing bored housewife wenches I meet at Starbucks every day are going to laugh at me!" I'd say that more than one man had probably been icepicked for less than that level of honesty. It can work, I've been there. You don't have to be a SOB about, but I told one of my SO's that she was rotten in bed. (Not in so many words, though.) Well, she asked... She took it like a bullet, but she actually thanked me later. She had known it already, but me telling her made her accept it, and realise that sex was not everything a woman was about. She had been very up-keyed about sex, it made her relax more. And yes, we did have sex after that disclosure.
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 was your SO known as Posh Spice? No, I don't bed ogres. Only in Britain....
Trialbyfire Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 Interesting .. I wonder what would happen if we were totally honest. It may be painful at first, but at least the BS is out of the way right away. W: "Why did you cheat on me? Did you like it?" H: "Hell yeah I liked it and I still do. I cheated on you because I'm tired of your frigid, bitchy a**, what are you kidding me?" W: "I never liked sex with you because you disgust me at every level. I just wanted a meal ticket, but my friends are now going to laugh at you and the other unsatisfied woman because I've always told them your pencil crayon was too little to satisfy me!" I'd say that more than one woman had probably been icepicked for less than that level of cruelty. Fixed it to add to the provocation. Cruelty for cruelty...
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 No, I don't bed ogres. (That's an effing lie. My date for tomorrow... Why the **** did I say yes?)
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 Fixed it to add to the provocation. Cruelty for cruelty... If it was the truth, I'd prefer to hear it.
Trialbyfire Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 If it was the truth, I'd prefer to hear it. There are other ways to phrase comments that can be brutally honest but not cruel. It's the difference between constructive criticism and criticism for no purpose at all except to hurt the other person. H - I had an affair because you were unwilling to satisfy my physical needs. W - I can't sleep with you because you no longer appeal to me. H - Can we work on this? W - No, I don't think so. H - Then it's time for us to go our own ways.
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