Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 Honesty only works if you are honest. Really, brutally honest. I posted this in another thread, got no takers, but how about this: "Yes, honey, I had an affair and I loved it!" Because nine time out of ten, that's the goddamn truth and all the tears and remorse and handwringing is hypocritical as hell! And you W can smell it, that's what is pissing her off, even if she thinks something different. Any comments? Honest ones, preferrably, but any comments will do.
silktricks Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 Honesty only works if you are honest. Really, brutally honest. I posted this in another thread, got no takers, but how about this: "Yes, honey, I had an affair and I loved it!" Because nine time out of ten, that's the goddamn truth and all the tears and remorse and handwringing is hypocritical as hell! And you W can smell it, that's what is pissing her off, even if she thinks something different. Any comments? Honest ones, preferrably, but any comments will do. Did you - personally - have an affair, and it was great? I thought you were the BS, not the WS???
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 It was just an example. But yes I did have an affair, two in fact. I kinda preferred to keep the score even, emotional insurance. (Hope I guess right as to the meaning of BS and WS) But it's not really a comment, is it?
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 That's how I stumbled upon this approach. I felt no remorse and could not get myself to express any, all things considered.
Storyrider Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 This article was on the web yesterday and seems to echo your points from the other thread about how Europeans and Americans treat infidelity differently. http://www.bestlifeonline.com/cms/publish/sex-relationships/Why_French_Men_Don_t_Get_Caught.shtml
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 Thanks, Storyrider. I think I saw the link before, your post? I notice people does not really confront my dilemma. So, all of you truth-seekers, do you want your cheating M to be honest with you or do you just enjoy seeing him snivel? Because in that case, your marriage is better off you not knowing.
alphamale Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 people generally like to avoid brutal honesty ERIK....life is easier that way.
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 Well, I think life is easier with honesty, you don't fight as much. If you say "I don't want to see your mother because I don't like her", you've pretty much closed the discussion. If you try to put all kind of make-up on the pig, the W smells a rat and starts digging. It's not that hard, really, not much more than flipping a switch in your head. And yes, some girls can't live with it. I've know two that could and one that couldn't, but that's better than 50%
serial muse Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 eh, i'll bite. yes, i'd want brutal honesty. and yes, if such honesty means that my partner expressed such one-dimensional joy about his affair as you've postulated all affair-indulgers must feel, then you betcha i would end the marriage. not much rocket science to it, really. hope this helps.
norajane Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 I know I hate partial honesty...like when someone says, I'm sorry I lied to you, and maybe they are, but you know they're really sorry they got caught, and you know they're not a bit sorry for doing what they actually lied about. I'd rather not get the apology if it's not sincere or whole. If they were just brutally honest, it would save a lot of grief in the long run. But selfishness prevents brutal honesty. Yes, the hearer might hate hearing the truth, but it's the liar who really doesn't want to deal with the consequences of being honest.
alphamale Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 Well, I think life is easier with honesty, you don't fight as much. If you say "I don't want to see your mother because I don't like her", you've pretty much closed the discussion. the key with women ERIK is to know when to be honest and when to lie. You will be golden if you can do this.
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 I know I hate partial honesty...like when someone says, I'm sorry I lied to you, and maybe they are, but you know they're really sorry they got caught, and you know they're not a bit sorry for doing what they actually lied about. Spot on! Who really believes the M when he is down at your feet crying bitter tears? If he is so remorseful, why did he cheat in the first place? Nobody jeopardizes their marriage for something that is not immensely fun. (I'm looking at you, Serial Muse!)
serial muse Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 If they were just brutally honest, it would save a lot of grief in the long run. But selfishness prevents brutal honesty. Yes, the hearer might hate hearing the truth, but it's the liar who really doesn't want to deal with the consequences of being honest. NJ hit the nail on the head right here.
serial muse Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 Spot on! Who really believes the M when he is down at your feet crying bitter tears? If he is so remorseful, why did he cheat in the first place? Nobody jeopardizes their marriage for something that is not immensely fun. (I'm looking at you, Serial Muse!) That's why I divorced him, Erik. We clear?
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 the key with women ERIK is to know when to be honest and when to lie. You will be golden if you can do this. That's right. But I think it differs very much for each relationship. Problem is, I believe that women hate lying much more than I think we men can ever imagine. There was a girl in here that was heartbroken that her BF had lied about her mothers name, she was on the verge of breaking up. And I think that the reason women react so strongly to infidelity is the ocean of lies and hypocrisy that follows, more than the cheating in itself. I
mockeryjones Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 the key with women ERIK is to know when to be honest and when to lie. You will be golden if you can do this. the key is the same for men. people don't want you to be honest with them, not really. they only want you to be honest with them within the context of items that conform to their over all world view. on the other hand often what one speaker considers to be brutally honest is heard as simply tactless and self justifying crap. true honesty generally starts with being generally honest with one's self. you might start the chain of brutal honesty at "i had an affair and i loved it" but that's only part of the story the other part of brutally honesty would require a self examination of the implied "i don't keep my promises". both are brutally honest, but only one endangers the speakers self image. the hand wringing for most people i would guess is as much for showing themselves that "they aren't really like that" as it is to assuage the feelings of the betrayed. internal conistency demands that many people self flaggelate, even if the did have a great time in the affair. the need to be internally consistent is a huge motivator in human behavior, and it's easier to label an affair as an abberation then to realign one's self image to accept a less morally grounded identity.
Pink_Tulip Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 Did anyone really even read that article?? Let's see, here are some of the finer points... When I ask why we're the only country whose relationships often collapse immediately under the weight of a discovered infidelity, he says that in other countries women have fewer rights. Men cheat, and women have no leverage to stop them or to complain. It's not a matter of tolerance but of unequal freedoms. He reminds me that in some countries, women are stoned to death for adultery. "So is it not possible for couples and individuals to handle this crisis on their own?" I ask. "It's possible," he answers. "In Singapore, where there's no support system, they do handle it on their own." I ask how. "With a staggering rate of suicide," he replies. The reason other countries look the other way is b/c women don't have a choice BUT to accept their cheating husbands. And that is OK? So they are better b/c men can cheat and get away with it? Please explain. If this thread is about total honesty, then why not be up front with a woman from the beginning by saying you have (or she) no intention of being faithful in the marriage. Funny how 'brutal honesty' only comes about AFTER the fact. I have no problem with people choosing open marriages as long as both agree before hand. But to say after someone has been unfaithful that NOW we will be totally honest is just an excuse to justify behavior and guilt the other person into forgiveness, IMO.
serial muse Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 true honesty generally starts with being generally honest with one's self. you might start the chain of brutal honesty at "i had an affair and i loved it" but that's only part of the story the other part of brutally honesty would require a self examination of the implied "i don't keep my promises". both are brutally honest, but only one endangers the speakers self image. the hand wringing for most people i would guess is as much for showing themselves that "they aren't really like that" as it is to assuage the feelings of the betrayed. internal conistency demands that many people self flaggelate, even if the did have a great time in the affair. the need to be internally consistent is a huge motivator in human behavior, and it's easier to label an affair as an abberation then to realign one's self image to accept a less morally grounded identity. this, too, is an excellent, excellent point. thank you for making it.
alphamale Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 Problem is, I believe that women hate lying much more than I think we men can ever imagine. No they don't...where you get that idea? WOmen expect man to lie. If he does not lie at least sometimes then he is not a man. Also, womens lie just as much or even more than man does. And I think that the reason women react so strongly to infidelity is the ocean of lies and hypocrisy that follows, more than the cheating in itself. I actually...most women eventually forgive their man for infidelity and end up staying with him. you can see examples all around you. women expect emotional fidelity from man and man expects physical fidelity from women.
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 That's why I divorced him, Erik. We clear? Clear as daylight. It was not a snipe, but a general observation.
typical Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 do you want your cheating M to be honest with you I'd want it as much as I want my very first orgasm. Which is pretty damn bad. In fact, I have been keeping my eyes open for those type of people, but have been unsuccessful. Most are too sensitive, and unaware of themselves. I always like to say that I dont have time for that $hit in my life -the sugar coated responses, the lame excuses, the hidden nuances, when I can see, plain as day, the real truth behind it all. Something about the falseness digs under my skin and just decays there.
serial muse Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 Clear as daylight. It was not a snipe, but a general observation. well, i don't know about that. i think we're talking about two different things. my point, obviously, was that the WS' actions aren't quite as 1-D as you're suggesting - but not for the reasons you later attributed to me (for example, no, i would not believe overly maudlin and after-the-fact weepy remorse). instead, i think if you reread what mockeryjones wrote - about the bits of a cheater they have difficulty facing in themselves, and why the brutal honesty you're talking about is probably also just a facade - you'll be closer to the truth. IMO.
norajane Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 That's right. But I think it differs very much for each relationship. Problem is, I believe that women hate lying much more than I think we men can ever imagine. There was a girl in here that was heartbroken that her BF had lied about her mothers name, she was on the verge of breaking up. And I think that the reason women react so strongly to infidelity is the ocean of lies and hypocrisy that follows, more than the cheating in itself. I The infidelity is the injury. The ocean of lies that go along with it are the insult. Compare a cheater who has a ONS and confesses, to the cheater who has an affair and lies about it for ages until he is caught. In the first case, the BS has to deal with sickening thoughts of him with another woman. In the second, she has to deal with sickening thoughts of him with another woman AND all the bold deception he was capable of while professing his love for her at the same time.
Author Erik Posted March 23, 2007 Author Posted March 23, 2007 the key is the same for men. people don't want you to be honest with them, not really. they only want you to be honest with them within the context of items that conform to their over all world view. on the other hand often what one speaker considers to be brutally honest is heard as simply tactless and self justifying crap. true honesty generally starts with being generally honest with one's self. you might start the chain of brutal honesty at "i had an affair and i loved it" but that's only part of the story the other part of brutally honesty would require a self examination of the implied "i don't keep my promises". both are brutally honest, but only one endangers the speakers self image. the hand wringing for most people i would guess is as much for showing themselves that "they aren't really like that" as it is to assuage the feelings of the betrayed. internal conistency demands that many people self flaggelate, even if the did have a great time in the affair. the need to be internally consistent is a huge motivator in human behavior, and it's easier to label an affair as an abberation then to realign one's self image to accept a less morally grounded identity. Thanks. Very good answer. Especially "it's easier to label an affair as an abberation then to realign one's self image to accept a less morally grounded identity." but then, maybe I only like that because I agree. But "I don't keep promises" is a bit disingenuous, you are implying that there exists people that keeps their promises at all times. Are you such a one? Honestly? And yes, you feel remorse that you hurt your SO, most normal people do. But then, that's whay you should say. I disagree that humans has a need for internal consistency. It's an intellectual imperative only.
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