Things are bad... (Long Post)

[Ladyjane14]

I'm sorry.... but I have to disagree with all these assumptions that your wife doesn't love you anymore.

Honestly, no one here is in a position to KNOW that. Certainly, there's a dearth of loving action within your relationship... but that doesn't mean there's no love.

 

I spent nearly a decade of my marriage, (about half the length of it at the time)... feeling like I only loved my husband in a familial way... not romantically as a lover, but rather as a family member that I'd grown accustomed to. He felt about me in much the same way by the time we reached a crisis in our marriage.

 

Imagine my surprise when I found out that I REALLY did love him in EVERY way. You could've knocked me over with a feather!

And it was the same for him too.

 

I'm of a firm belief that love can be BLOCKED. It's a tender emotion, and it can't rise to the fore in an active way when there are other red-hot emotions getting in it's way. Anger, resentment, depression... all these things IMPEDE the flow of love. But sometimes, when you get those other negative feelings out of the way... the love is still there.

 

Don't allow yourself to be shrouded in negativity at a time in your life when you NEED to utilize positive energy. You'll lose your family if you do.

 

I've never really told my story on a single thread, but I shared a good bit of it with another poster. She wanted to know what had worked for me, so I told her as best I could. I'll post you a link to that thread, not only because my story is of marital success... but also because I think you would learn a little more when you see the situation through Fyrwyfe's eyes. She was a woman caught between wanting to keep her marriage going and wanting to give up on it. There's always two sides to every story, right?

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t58996/?highlight=fyrwyfe

 

In the meantime... persevere Invman. It's worth it.

[Scrivdog]

see, that's the problem with most people who have been infected with the religion virus, they are willing to live their life in hell so they can be in heaven for eternity, what a waste.

 

I know that I am stopping on a lot of toes here, but religion is a mind virus, sooner or later there will be a vaccine for this one too.

I agree - I also think it's a way of avoiding responsibility for one's decisions. They just defer the decision to someone or something else because it's easier.

[Ladyjane14]

Don't forget to read through some of those "lop-sided" libido threads I linked you with earlier. This isn't a problem singularly affecting you and your wife. In actuality, it's one of the most common issues creating emotional distance in married couples. It CAN be resolved.

[Scrivdog]

Don't forget to read through some of those "lop-sided" libido threads I linked you with earlier. This isn't a problem singularly affecting you and your wife. In actuality, it's one of the most common issues creating emotional distance in married couples. It CAN be resolved.

 

Is there any guy here on LS who has gotten that resolved? I know James did for a short while, but that proved to be rather, eh .. fleeting.

[Ladyjane14]

Is there any guy here on LS who has gotten that resolved? I know James did for a short while, but that proved to be rather, eh .. fleeting.

 

My husband got it resolved.

And come to think of it, I think Tommyr is having some pretty good success so far.

 

One of these days, I'm going to think up JUST the right words will MAKE you guys understand what I'm talking about. But alas... it won't be today.

[Scrivdog]

My husband got it resolved.

And come to think of it, I think Tommyr is having some pretty good success so far.

 

One of these days, I'm going to think up JUST the right words will MAKE you guys understand what I'm talking about. But alas... it won't be today.

 

Hey I'm always listening! A couple of weeks ago, late one night, I started a "LadyJane appreciation thread" here on LS, but for some reason the moderators killed it!

[sb129]

I believe there is more to what God wants and thinks than can be defined by my personal feelings and state of being. There is something higher to be served than how a feel at any given time. At least that's my perspective. Now living with that perspective - that's tough! :-)

 

Sigh. If you can live with that, then thats up to you. I couldn't. Life is too short as it is to spend it miserable. And what if just what IF you are wrong about heaven? You will be annoyed you didn't take the chance at happiness earlier.

 

See, I understand where you're coming from on this, but most pshycological data that I've read disagrees. Divorce is far worse for children, especially at her age, no matter how bad the interpersonal relationship of the marriage is. I can't do that to my daughter. Not interested.

 

Hmmm. I disagree. I have several friends whose parents "stayed together for the children". they all say they wished their parents had divorced earlier because growing up with two parents had fallen out of love with eachother was utterly miserable.

Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but heartfelt all the same.

 

see, that's the problem with most people who have been infected with the religion virus, they are willing to live their life in hell so they can be in heaven for eternity, what a waste.

 

I know that I am stopping on a lot of toes here, but religion is a mind virus, sooner or later there will be a vaccine for this one too.

 

I agree - I also think it's a way of avoiding responsibility for one's decisions. They just defer the decision to someone or something else because it's easier.

 

i totally agree... but am arguing it out on two other threads, so will leave it out of this one.

[Ladyjane14]

Hey I'm always listening! A couple of weeks ago, late one night, I started a "LadyJane appreciation thread" here on LS, but for some reason the moderators killed it!

 

Dude!! I never saw it... probably a good thing too since I've been REALLY pissing a couple of people off lately.

I can't imagine.

 

On-topic though, I'd hate to see this guy not give this thing EVERY chance. I understand what he's talking about when he expresses his feelings on marriage as a "covenant".

 

He's not going to be truly happy if he's not spiritually happy. This is an instrumental part of 'who he is' at the core level. And it's unlikely that the sexual problems within the relationship are going to be a deal-breaker for him in that context. Even so... it can't be dismissed. It MUST be resolved.

[mrmaximum]

See, I understand where you're coming from on this, but most pshycological data that I've read disagrees. Divorce is far worse for children, especially at her age, no matter how bad the interpersonal relationship of the marriage is. I can't do that to my daughter. Not interested.

 

Example isn't everything.....it's the only thing and you daugther is going to look at you and your wife as the example as to how she should act in her relationship. I have no kids of my own per se, but my fiancee has two and my ex has two adn I live with them so I know this to be true. Sorry, your devotion to this cause iof no divorce will do more harm than good in the end despite your intentions. The bottom line is that this is not going to help her in the long run and I know I'm not the only person saying this. I will borrow a line from my fiancee about situations like this as she was with both a serial cheater and an abuser;

 

Children would rather come from a broken home than live in one.

 

This is a case where something isn't better than nothing.

[mrmaximum]

My husband got it resolved.

And come to think of it, I think Tommyr is having some pretty good success so far.

 

One of these days, I'm going to think up JUST the right words will MAKE you guys understand what I'm talking about. But alas... it won't be today.

 

I'm pretty sure guys say the same thing about women in this very same circumstance.

[Scrivdog]

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that's "who he is". It's his current belief system, but he's already smelling a rat. He's doing everything right, he's praying, living the good man's life, and being a good husband. This has done so little for him that his faith is getting severely tested.

 

The worst part is that he's the type of guy, it seems, to shoulder all the responsibility and guilt on his own. And I'm not convinced this is all very good for his spiritual nor even his physical health.

 

Dude!! I never saw it... probably a good thing too since I've been REALLY pissing a couple of people off lately.

I can't imagine.

 

On-topic though, I'd hate to see this guy not give this thing EVERY chance. I understand what he's talking about when he expresses his feelings on marriage as a "covenant".

 

He's not going to be truly happy if he's not spiritually happy. This is an instrumental part of 'who he is' at the core level. And it's unlikely that the sexual problems within the relationship are going to be a deal-breaker for him in that context. Even so... it can't be dismissed. It MUST be resolved.

[invman]

don't know that I'd go so far as to say that's "who he is". It's his current belief system, but he's already smelling a rat. He's doing everything right, he's praying, living the good man's life, and being a good husband. This has done so little for him that his faith is getting severely tested.

 

Actually, this is more than a fleeting temporary thing. I've been a devoted Christian actively for the last eight years. Before that - marginal. I have taught, teach, have preached, have gone thru some bible school for ministry, and am an elder on the church board (read "junior pastor" or "lay pastor").

 

I do, however, smell a rat. But the rat is not in what true Christianity is, rather I think it is in what the church today has made it: All about me. The gospel of Jesus is not about do this, this, this, and this; pray hard, have faith, and God will bless you. It's not do your part and God will bless you.

 

You'd think that's what it's about because that's all the church talks about. I'm discussing this same post in another Christian forum and it's amazing the difference in response. Most the responses in the other thread are do your part, pray harder, have faith and God will bless you.

 

Maybe he will. But I'm far more convinced of this: the gospel is not about meeting my needs - except maybe one: my need of reconciliation with God do to my own sin. That's what's promised: God became man in Christ to pay the penalty on the cross for my sin that I might be reconciled to him. That reconciliation, and the resurrected life to come, are the only sure promises in the gospel found in Scripture. Everything else is prescriptive of how we are to live - which is ok and good - but it does not promise earthly reward for it, only heavenly.

 

So is there a rat? Yea, but not in the true gospel.

[invman]

The worst part is that he's the type of guy, it seems, to shoulder all the responsibility and guilt on his own. And I'm not convinced this is all very good for his spiritual nor even his physical health.

 

It's so funny you say that because on the other forum, they seem to think I'm not shouldering enough responsibility.

:-)

[Scrivdog]

Ok, man. Good luck with all that.

 

Actually, this is more than a fleeting temporary thing. I've been a devoted Christian actively for the last eight years. Before that - marginal. I have taught, teach, have preached, have gone thru some bible school for ministry, and am an elder on the church board (read "junior pastor" or "lay pastor").

 

I do, however, smell a rat. But the rat is not in what true Christianity is, rather I think it is in what the church today has made it: All about me. The gospel of Jesus is not about do this, this, this, and this; pray hard, have faith, and God will bless you. It's not do your part and God will bless you.

 

You'd think that's what it's about because that's all the church talks about. I'm discussing this same post in another Christian forum and it's amazing the difference in response. Most the responses in the other thread are do your part, pray harder, have faith and God will bless you.

 

Maybe he will. But I'm far more convinced of this: the gospel is not about meeting my needs - except maybe one: my need of reconciliation with God do to my own sin. That's what's promised: God became man in Christ to pay the penalty on the cross for my sin that I might be reconciled to him. That reconciliation, and the resurrected life to come, are the only sure promises in the gospel found in Scripture. Everything else is prescriptive of how we are to live - which is ok and good - but it does not promise earthly reward for it, only heavenly.

 

So is there a rat? Yea, but not in the true gospel.

[mrmaximum]

Actually, this is more than a fleeting temporary thing. I've been a devoted Christian actively for the last eight years.....

...So is there a rat? Yea, but not in the true gospel.

 

This is not something that I want for you or your daughter, but lets just speak hypothetically here, yeah? You daughter ends up in an abusive realtionship with her husband and has a child of her own. Are you saying that she should just pray and shoulder responsiblity because she isn't doing enough and that will take care of the issues?

[RecordProducer]

Just for note: I can deal with it if she doesn't love me anymore. Sometimes I think I feel the same way about her. Love is more than a feeling - it's an action. I can handle the feeling going away, what I want is her participation in rebuilding so that the feelings can come back.

This is a very interesting and profound thought. And that goes hand in hand with:

 

I'm sorry.... but I have to disagree with all these assumptions that your wife doesn't love you anymore.

Honestly, no one here is in a position to KNOW that. Certainly, there's a dearth of loving action within your relationship... but that doesn't mean there's no love.

You're right. Her love could be blocked due to the crap of the marriage (who hasn't gone through it? )

 

Sometimes I think I don't love my husband anymore, but when I imagine him with another woman or if something happened to him (God forbid!), I can feel how broken-hearted I would be. I think we get tired of disappointments so we slowly detach ourselves emotionally. That's why she had the e. affair - to replace the pain in her heart related to the marriage with some superficial romantic feelings.

 

Invman, the right question would be: what makes her feel this way? I think in a way she has given up on you. Perhaps you could try to seduce her. Remember the things she fell in love with you for.Remember the energy and laughter we share when we first start dating... the little gifts, the attention, the compliments, the great moods, the fascination with each other... we all long for those moments. That's why she had the emotional affair - to feel the taste of infatuation once again.

 

So give it to her! Don't just expect sex as an obligation that she owes you.

 

Dude!! I never saw it... probably a good thing too since I've been REALLY pissing a couple of people off lately.

I can't imagine.

I can't imagine YOU pissing people off.

[prettyprincess]

She sounds so distanced and uncaring for you, it's only a matter of time before she cheats as well if she already hasn't.

[invman]

This is a very interesting and profound thought.

 

Thanks, but I can't take credit for it. It's actually biblical. From Scripture, we learn about different kinds of love: sexual, friendship, emotional, and action love. Action love is considered the highest form because it is not dependant on fleeting feeings. It's what we are all called to. Agape!

 

I think we get tired of disappointments so we slowly detach ourselves emotionally. That's why she had the e. affair - to replace the pain in her heart related to the marriage with some superficial romantic feelings.

 

I agree. It's likely much of the same reasoning for mine.

 

Invman, the right question would be: what makes her feel this way? I think in a way she has given up on you. Perhaps you could try to seduce her. Remember the things she fell in love with you for.Remember the energy and laughter we share when we first start dating... the little gifts, the attention, the compliments, the great moods, the fascination with each other... we all long for those moments. That's why she had the emotional affair - to feel the taste of infatuation once again.

 

You know, I've tried that. You know what she has said time and time again? She's not that woman. She's changed. She's not interested in those things anymore. She's not that "girl".

[invman]

This is not something that I want for you or your daughter, but lets just speak hypothetically here, yeah? You daughter ends up in an abusive realtionship with her husband and has a child of her own. Are you saying that she should just pray and shoulder responsiblity because she isn't doing enough and that will take care of the issues?

 

To be honest, I guess that depends on how you define abusive. If he's physically abusive, I'd tell her to get out of the house, but not divorce. Try reconciliation. If it's verbal/emotional, again, always try for change and reconciliation. If time apart is necessary, than so be it, but not divorce. And if there was to be a divorce, my understanding of the Scriptural grounds anyway, would be that they would both be expected to stay unmarried unless the divorce was for unrepentant adultery and/or desertion.

 

It's not so much about God not wanting us to be happy as much as it is about how marriage is supposed to symbalize the relationship between Christ and the church: his love is unconditional. He does not give up on us. He always seeks reconciliation and change - even when we abuse his love.

[guest]

I just have a few comments..... First I totally respect your belief system and stick to it if you must.. When you have kids you take a back seat to everything. Yes,you need to be happy but your daughters needs come first. I have 2 girls and when I divorced their father I did it because it was best for them as well as myself (he is an alcholic and was becoming verbally abusive to me as well as the girls).

 

You are doing a dis-service to your daughter by letting this all continue. She is much smater then you are giving her credit for. She can sense the tension,the unhappiness,and most of all the lack of respect it seems your wife has for you. It seems that your wife has checked out of this relationship a long time ago and does not want to do anything to work on the problems you all have. I will not presume to say that your wife does not love you,that is not my place, but it is clear from your OP that she has no respect for your feelings or your marriage.

 

If you would tell your daughter to leave the house if she were being abused then why are you still there? Your wife is vebally and emotionally abusive to you. If you do not believe in divorce then live apart. Maybe being apart is what will get your wife motivated to work on herself as well as you marriage.

 

Good luck and I hope it all works out for you and your family.

[RecordProducer]

You know, I've tried that. You know what she has said time and time again? She's not that woman. She's changed. She's not interested in those things anymore. She's not that "girl".

So she basically admitted that she is not the girl who loved you anymore. I think you should go to marriage counseling alone (since she doesn't want to) and have them help you work on your marriage from one side.

 

I am just afraid that after all, you also have given up on her and don't have the stamina to fight for both of you..

[mrmaximum]

So she basically admitted that she is not the girl who loved you anymore. I think you should go to marriage counseling alone (since she doesn't want to) and have them help you work on your marriage from one side.

 

I am just afraid that after all, you also have given up on her and don't have the stamina to fight for both of you..

 

Wel this sounds like the best course of action and I really hope this works out for you. There maybe another situation that is the matter. She wants out but you won't let her leave. As we have already stated that the big d-word may be the best solution here but that is a choice you won't take for your own reasons. I can respect that, however I'm a little worried about you daughter. You have a child involved here and whether or not being in two different housholds seems like a bad situation, being in one where everyone is miserable is much, much worse. Children can feel the issues in the home and they internalize it. As I have said before, I'm not sure what you've read but I'm pretty sure even Dr. Phil (a religious man by the way) would say that this is a done deal you should let go. For the sole reason that this is NOT good for your daughter. Example isn't everything, it is the only thing.

I do hope things do improve and to pray and confess and not giving up on your marriage. You never know, things may just turn around. However, not to be flippant, but your attitude reminds me of the story (joke) about the Christian and the flood. I really hope you don't turn out like that guy did. Not trying to be an @ss or anything, just hoping that there is a good outcome for everyone involved.

 

Good Luck and God Bless

[Mary3]

Invman, I have a deja vue with your story. I've read stories like this in this forum with deferring from each other in very few details. The common ground is always one thing: married too young.

 

When people are young, they make bad choices more often than not. They fail to comprehend all aspects of their choices and the gravity of making decisions. At age 21 I thought I loved my first boyfriend, but I actually didn't. At age 23 I thought my husband was the one, but I was wrong. We had two children and got divorced. It's easier to make the wrong choice about marriage than the right one. And the younger we are the more naive and ignorant we are.

 

Your wife thought you were the one. But you're not. Everything you wrote indicates that she no longer loves you. While the love might be brought back, she is not willing to work on it. She has outgrown you, her love for you, and your marriage. She is not happy with you and she is ruining the marriage on purpose.

 

She forgave you your infidelity too easily. Things got better right after it, because she was intrigued by you being attractive to other women. But that's a very superficial feeling. If she had any deep feelings for you, she would have been immensely hurt by your confession.

 

The lack of sex and affection, the fights and lack of desire to improve your marriage all imply how she feels about you.

 

You can either turn to yourself and live your own life within the marriage or get divorced. I don't see how you can improve anything when she doesn't want it.

 

She doesn't remember to tell you "I love you" because she doesn't love you!

 

WOW ! Very well spoken. I was just getting ready to type that , lol.

 

In either case I was your wife. For various reasons I no longer loved my husband. The LAST thing I wanted to do was make love to HIM.

 

You have all the makings of a dead marraige. No Life Preserver can save this one. Your wife does not love you anymore. She may resent greatly the forced division of her love interest long ago.

 

She sounds like she is in a deep depression. Apathetic towards sex, interests , affection , intimacy and the willingness to work on the marraige.

 

It is not a sin to end something that is really hurting your daughter MORE by you both staying in a loveless relationship ( plus I am not sure you can love someone who has for years rejected you... )

 

End this . You only have one life. One daughter. One future.

[4whatItsWorth]

To be honest, I guess that depends on how you define abusive. If he's physically abusive, I'd tell her to get out of the house, but not divorce. Try reconciliation. If it's verbal/emotional, again, always try for change and reconciliation. If time apart is necessary, than so be it, but not divorce. And if there was to be a divorce, my understanding of the Scriptural grounds anyway, would be that they would both be expected to stay unmarried unless the divorce was for unrepentant adultery and/or desertion.

 

It's not so much about God not wanting us to be happy as much as it is about how marriage is supposed to symbalize the relationship between Christ and the church: his love is unconditional. He does not give up on us. He always seeks reconciliation and change - even when we abuse his love.

 

Seriously, sorry, but this is why I am not a very devoted Christian. (Baptised and whatever - but for the love of...) So you would refuse your daughter a divorce from a man who abused her?! And then to dare telling her to stay unmarried?! She wouldn't have been the one to break the marriage vows - the HUSBAND would have had for abused her in the first place! I have a bible at home, and to be honest I never read it - but I am pretty sure it says nowhere in there a man has the right to hit a woman and then having her stay? (Or someone should re-write that book.)

 

Correct me because I'll probably be wrong in your eyes - but I thougth marriage symbolised the love betwee a MAN AND A WOMAN. I never agree to marry Christ. I am getting married and you've just made me want to become a buddist. Or at least not marry in a church. If I marry someone, it is because I love him and want to be completely his. Not because of any God or Christ. IMHO, they have nothing to do with it. They're not the ones getting married to me.

 

Seriosuly, you need to change your views or start to interpret the bible in a different way. I am pretty damn sure God would not support living in misery just to keep a marriage intact.

 

But back to your problem. (Sorry, but that just pissed me off.) It does sound like your wife uses every excuse in the book to avoid intimacy with you - avoiding intimacy is usually a sign of everything but love. She probably knows you "won't let her" divorce you, so I guess she might be pushing and pushing until you would eventually have "a reason" for it. Or is she as religious as you?

 

And religious ppl will probably bash me for that, but soz but everyone interprets God's ways and beliefs differently - and I do not believe he wishes misery on anybody.

[mrmaximum]

I agree with Worth. Being miserable for the name of God? I know that the bible states that we need to be long suffering, but that is a choice you are making for your spouse AND your daughter. If you wanted to do this for you and your SO, that wouldn't be so bad, you are both adults and you know what the risks are and what is at stake. Your daughter can't make that choice and I find it appalling that you would continue this 'in the name of God' At the end of the day pray (yeah that's right I used the word PRAY) that I'm wrong and that your method works out in the end before your daughter ends up paying for it but I have a bad feeling that this won't be the case.