Things are bad... (Long Post)

[invman]

Ok, so I'm new here, and to be honest, I don't really know where to start. So, how about five words I hate saying: My marriage is in trouble. At least I think so anyway.

 

I know I'm new and all, and haven't really done any contributing, but I'm hoping I could post about it and maybe get some feedback. WARNING: this could get long. Sorry.

 

ABOUT ME

I'm 27, male, been married to my wife for 6 1/2 years. We have one beautiful daughter age 3 1/2. I work full time. I am currently an elder at the church in my second year. I have taught, and occasionally still do, and have preached, though not for the last year.

 

ABOUT MY WIFE

She is 30. She stays at home with our daughter full time. She used to work FT before that, but stopped when our girl was born. She eventually plans on going back to work PT at least when she enters kindergarden.

 

ABOUT US

We met in the summer of '99 thru mutual friends. We "clicked" right away and both knew almost immediately that we wanted to be married. Later in '00 we were.

 

THE SITUATION

Pretty much ever since about 1 to 1 1/2 years into our marriage, it has been falling apart, though I don't think she sees it that way. We went through the normal marriage difficulties, but persevered. Things seemed to be ok for awhile.

 

Eventually, I started school PT and worked PT and she worked FT (essentially putting me through). For awhile it went ok.

 

Eventually, she seemed to talk alot about a guy from work. She told me about going out on a motorcycle ride with him. She said it was innocent. I wasn't happy about it, but I wasn't really suspicious. Eventually, I caught wind of them emailing, instant messaging, and I'd hear stories about him from her. It seemed too much. I called her on it and she said I was just being jealeous and that it didn't suit me. She accused me of being oversuspicious and assured me that nothing was going on. I didn't really believe her. Sex had tapered off, we fought more, and I saw some interesting heart shaped emotiocons on the computer screen in passing.

 

Eventually, while cleaning up the house, I found printed out emails of them expressing their "puppy love" and what not for each other. I showed them to her and she confessed that my suspicions had been right all along. She was emotionally involved. They had not kissed or had intercourse - just hugs, but they did have feelings for each other. I was pretty upset. She burned the letters and said she was through with him. I told her to cut off all contact at work with him. She didn't really want to but I made it clear that she had to.

 

She asked me not to tell anyone we knew about it - especially our pastor. She didn't want counseling. She just wanted to move forward as if it didn't happen. I honored her wishes (though I have regreted it ever since). I'm not sure if she ever really understood the gravity of what she did. There was a time or two when I cried about it and she just poo pooed me as if I was overeacting. I tried to make it clear that she hurt me. I'm not sure she ever really truly considered it an emotional affair.

 

Sex during this time, and before it, declined in frequency and ... intensity let's say. After, it continued on a downward slide. Part of it didn't help that she came off birth controld. We had a scare about some pills being abortive, or so we had heard from friends. Instead of doing research for ourselves, we overeacted and just pulled the pill so to speak. Mistake!

 

So, in part because of her fear of getting pregnant, and for other reasons that I don't know or understand, sex diminished. Interestingly enough, all physical intimacy diminished. As you married folks know, there are "other" options beside intercourse to express love and enjoy physical pleasure. These wained. In spite of my requests for more to aid in the fact that, as a man I struggle with sexual sin, the physical intimacy continued to decline (about once or twice a week at this point - but stricly as a chore).

 

Eventually, she did get pregnant. We moved. I went back to work full time. She stayed home with our girl. It took a LONG time for her to physically recover enough for intercourse. It was very hard on me, but I did not pester her, and I believe even she would corroborate that. Eventually, she went back on some form of birth control, and we tried to re-establish physical intamcy.

 

Unfortunately, she decided at this point that some of the physical acts aside from intercourse that she had been open to in the past, she was no longer interested in. Now we were left with only two forms of physical intimacy (most married folks probably know where I'm going with this). Neither of these happened often.

 

Over the years since our daughter was born, things have gotten worse. My wife has gone from nag to mega-nag. She can be downright mean, disrespectful, and nasty. She can also be real nice too - especially to those other than me. She never (yes, never) says I love you unless I say it first. She is not interested in holding hands, cuddling, making out (even w/ out sex), or anything related to normal intimacy. She doesn't like to go on dates (I do). She initiates no intimacy - ever. In fact, I can count that there have been only two times since our daughter was born that she initiated anything. Also, there was a general lack of politeness and courteousness.

 

Eventually, I got fed up - and was tired of us fighting. Our pastor highly encouraged us going to marital counseling. We did. We got about four to five weeks into it and she wanted to stop going. She had various excuses, but eventually made it known that she would not be a willing participant.

She wanted to try marriage books instead - an ironic proposal since I wanted to do books for a long time prior, but she was uninterested.

BTW, sex and the "alternative" at this point were at lows of about once a week for both.

 

Since she was unwilling to continue counseling, we stopped. She didn't say another word about the books for about a month. Finally, we started one. We got a couple chapters in - finished the chapter on a woman's first need - and read the preview of the next chapter on the man's first need, and she essentially blew up and said she was not interested in having to do anything more with sex than she already has been.

 

Now, in all fairness, she can still be sore to this day from the epesiotomy from giving birth. But my argument has always been that there is more to physical intimacy than just intercourse, including other bedroom activities, kissing, holding hands, hugging, etc... but she's not really interested in any of these. Most of the time, she shunned me, rejected me, and had an attitude of disgust for anything related to physical intimacy with me.

 

We stopped the book. The fight it caused was unbelievable, and I was more concerned about having some semblance of peace. Things were on a major downward spiral from that point on.

 

With marriage counseling obviously failing, and us not being able to fix things on our own, I felt quite a bit of despondancy. Sex decreased to a frequency of about once every two weeks or so, with maybe something else in the meantime, but most of the time not. Other forms of intimacy were a no go. Dates were few and far between.

 

To top it off, my pastor - and good friend - left the church. There was really no one to talk to about it. Then the stress of finding a new pastor. Add to that I was still battling with the daily struggle of sexual purity. I was tired. Spiritually and emotionally tired. Even depressed at times.

 

September (last) created all new challenges. I was out of town on business. We had a company party in the city I was staying in. I was exhausted from a long day of work and travel. After the party, I met a woman named "H" and a couple other guys. THey wanted to go out to a karaoke bar. I said no (I could tell she was interested in some form) and that I was tired (I was). My boss at the time encouraged me to go, however, since I would develop contacts in my new position. I went. To be honest, a part of me did want to go to have fun.

 

H and I had a great time out with the other two, but it seemed like it was really just us. She was friendly, polite, smiled, touched me, and joked and kidded with me - unlike my wife who is typically unfriendly, impolite, grumpy, does not touch, and does not flirt or joke around most of the time. H and I danced. It was great. My wife doesn't like to dance with me - at weddings or anywhere, she usually doesn't care to.

 

I was enamored. We went back to the hotel. She crashed emotionally and physically. I was concerned. Walked her to her room. Then went back downstairs with the others. They wanted to go out again. I declined. They left. I was still enamored with H, and worried about her since she seemed to crash hard. I decided to go check on her. In the back of my mind, I knew I shouldn't have. A part of me really was concerned. Another part really wanted something to happen. It was the first fun I'd had in a long time.

 

I went back upstairs. Checked on her. Eventually she asked if I would come in and give her a neck rub - obviously a come on. All the alarms were going off, but to be honest, I was just so tired: physically, spiritually, and emotionally. I was tired of the fight. I was tired of the rollercoaster. I was enamored with the possibilities. I knew better, but I went in.

 

I'm sure anyone can guess what came next. We did not have intercourse (thank God), but we did have very inappropriate, physical contact - even sexual. We stopped before intercourse. We both recognized that we had done wrong and talked about it. I even witnessed to her some - crazy huh?

 

I spoke with our new pastor on the ride home (only his fourth day on the job!). He was comforting. I knew right away that I had to tell my wife. Honesty is important in a marriage. Her dishonesty had devestated me years prior. It went well - as well as it could. Things even seemed to get better for awhile. I treasured her more, she seemed to "wake up". I stayed on the board at the prompting of my pastor. He felt that we didn't take "it" as far as it could have gone, and that my repentance was swift, immediate, and that I dealt with it honestly and with responsibility. Though I had doubts,and still do at times, I stayed on the elder board. Things seemed to get a little better.

 

Unfortunately, that was short lived. We're back right where we were before my cheating, except worse. She is even more rude, argumentative, and unphysical. I try to give her space and help out, but to no avail. Nothing works. She has declined every opportunity for counseling, is not interested in speaking with our pastor, and does not want to speak to anyone about it.

 

Sex is rare. We're at two weeks right now. The "other" alternative is just as rare. It's driving me crazy. I am spurned when it comes to any kind of approach: hugging, kissing, touching. I understand that affairs can cause these problems, but it did get better for awhile afterward - and it's been like this long before my cheating.

 

At this point, I am at my wits end. I don't know what to do. It's not getting better. We fight alot! Over stupid things! I try to act civil, but putting up with her attitude is so hard. When I talk to her about it, she just rebuffs me.

 

My friendship with our current pastor is not as strong as my previous. Plus,we have a hard time communicating. I have no friends that I'm comfortable releasing the info about the affair with yet. Counseling has failed. She refuses to try again.

 

I find myself flying back and forth from sticktoitiveness on the one hand and downright depression on the other. I am angry - at myself, her, and God (at times). Faith seems futile and useless at times - where has it gotten me? (The worst part is that as a junior theologian, I know better than this thinking, but I'm too smart for my own good. My annalytical mind has turned upside down in doubt, anger, and skepticism). I'll be stepping down from the board in all likelihood for other theological and practical reasons.

 

I've never been this close to considering divorce. I know it's sin. I've always said that my relationship w/ Christ is what has kept me married. Then it was my relationship with Christ and my daughter. Now, I am ashamed to say, Christ has nothing to do with it. A part of me would just rather do it and deal with the sin afterward. The only thing keeping me married right now is my daughter and the embarassment before family and friends. I just can't do that to my daughter. Unfortunately, I don't know if that will hold out. Sometimes I find myself wishing that my wife would just leave me, get it over with, and get me off the hook.

 

This is going to sound conceited, and I don't mean it that way, but the worst part is knowing that most other women don't treat their men this way - at least in my experience. Also, it would be fairly easy for me to snag another woman (just look at last September). I even know some that I could probably get involved with if I were suddenly single (not that their propositioning or anything like that). I've even found myself wishing the polygamy wasn't sinful! Same w/ concubines!

 

I long for female closeness and intimacy. I love to be romantic and relational. And of course, I love physical activity. I hate being rejected by my own wife. How am I to rejoice in the breasts of the wife of my youth (literally and figuratively) if she is always rejecting me? Again, this is beyond just sex.

 

So anyway, I don't know what to do anymore. Pray seems fruitless. It's gotten me nowhere for years now. I'm hopeless, near faithless, sad, angry, and sometimes depressed. I have good days, days where it seems like all will be well, then a snide comment, a rejective response, or a fight, and all comes crashing down again. I'm racked, stressed, back to tired again - physically, spiritually, and emotionally. I sinfully long for H again because it was so easy with her (even though I know it wouldn't be further along).

 

Help! Sorry for rambling. I just wanted to get all that out. I'm confused, and left with no clue what to do, and I'm sick of falling into depression about this. Help... and thanks.

[Chapter2]

I don't mean this to sound overly simplistic, but why are you staying?

 

Ok, so I'm new here, and to be honest, I don't really know where to start. So, how about five words I hate saying: My marriage is in trouble. At least I think so anyway.

 

I know I'm new and all, and haven't really done any contributing, but I'm hoping I could post about it and maybe get some feedback. WARNING: this could get long. Sorry.

 

ABOUT ME

I'm 27, male, been married to my wife for 6 1/2 years. We have one beautiful daughter age 3 1/2. I work full time. I am currently an elder at the church in my second year. I have taught, and occasionally still do, and have preached, though not for the last year.

 

ABOUT MY WIFE

She is 30. She stays at home with our daughter full time. She used to work FT before that, but stopped when our girl was born. She eventually plans on going back to work PT at least when she enters kindergarden.

 

ABOUT US

We met in the summer of '99 thru mutual friends. We "clicked" right away and both knew almost immediately that we wanted to be married. Later in '00 we were.

 

THE SITUATION

Pretty much ever since about 1 to 1 1/2 years into our marriage, it has been falling apart, though I don't think she sees it that way. We went through the normal marriage difficulties, but persevered. Things seemed to be ok for awhile.

 

Eventually, I started school PT and worked PT and she worked FT (essentially putting me through). For awhile it went ok.

 

Eventually, she seemed to talk alot about a guy from work. She told me about going out on a motorcycle ride with him. She said it was innocent. I wasn't happy about it, but I wasn't really suspicious. Eventually, I caught wind of them emailing, instant messaging, and I'd hear stories about him from her. It seemed too much. I called her on it and she said I was just being jealeous and that it didn't suit me. She accused me of being oversuspicious and assured me that nothing was going on. I didn't really believe her. Sex had tapered off, we fought more, and I saw some interesting heart shaped emotiocons on the computer screen in passing.

 

Eventually, while cleaning up the house, I found printed out emails of them expressing their "puppy love" and what not for each other. I showed them to her and she confessed that my suspicions had been right all along. She was emotionally involved. They had not kissed or had intercourse - just hugs, but they did have feelings for each other. I was pretty upset. She burned the letters and said she was through with him. I told her to cut off all contact at work with him. She didn't really want to but I made it clear that she had to.

 

She asked me not to tell anyone we knew about it - especially our pastor. She didn't want counseling. She just wanted to move forward as if it didn't happen. I honored her wishes (though I have regreted it ever since). I'm not sure if she ever really understood the gravity of what she did. There was a time or two when I cried about it and she just poo pooed me as if I was overeacting. I tried to make it clear that she hurt me. I'm not sure she ever really truly considered it an emotional affair.

 

Sex during this time, and before it, declined in frequency and ... intensity let's say. After, it continued on a downward slide. Part of it didn't help that she came off birth controld. We had a scare about some pills being abortive, or so we had heard from friends. Instead of doing research for ourselves, we overeacted and just pulled the pill so to speak. Mistake!

 

So, in part because of her fear of getting pregnant, and for other reasons that I don't know or understand, sex diminished. Interestingly enough, all physical intimacy diminished. As you married folks know, there are "other" options beside intercourse to express love and enjoy physical pleasure. These wained. In spite of my requests for more to aid in the fact that, as a man I struggle with sexual sin, the physical intimacy continued to decline (about once or twice a week at this point - but stricly as a chore).

 

Eventually, she did get pregnant. We moved. I went back to work full time. She stayed home with our girl. It took a LONG time for her to physically recover enough for intercourse. It was very hard on me, but I did not pester her, and I believe even she would corroborate that. Eventually, she went back on some form of birth control, and we tried to re-establish physical intamcy.

 

Unfortunately, she decided at this point that some of the physical acts aside from intercourse that she had been open to in the past, she was no longer interested in. Now we were left with only two forms of physical intimacy (most married folks probably know where I'm going with this). Neither of these happened often.

 

Over the years since our daughter was born, things have gotten worse. My wife has gone from nag to mega-nag. She can be downright mean, disrespectful, and nasty. She can also be real nice too - especially to those other than me. She never (yes, never) says I love you unless I say it first. She is not interested in holding hands, cuddling, making out (even w/ out sex), or anything related to normal intimacy. She doesn't like to go on dates (I do). She initiates no intimacy - ever. In fact, I can count that there have been only two times since our daughter was born that she initiated anything. Also, there was a general lack of politeness and courteousness.

 

Eventually, I got fed up - and was tired of us fighting. Our pastor highly encouraged us going to marital counseling. We did. We got about four to five weeks into it and she wanted to stop going. She had various excuses, but eventually made it known that she would not be a willing participant.

She wanted to try marriage books instead - an ironic proposal since I wanted to do books for a long time prior, but she was uninterested.

BTW, sex and the "alternative" at this point were at lows of about once a week for both.

 

Since she was unwilling to continue counseling, we stopped. She didn't say another word about the books for about a month. Finally, we started one. We got a couple chapters in - finished the chapter on a woman's first need - and read the preview of the next chapter on the man's first need, and she essentially blew up and said she was not interested in having to do anything more with sex than she already has been.

 

Now, in all fairness, she can still be sore to this day from the epesiotomy from giving birth. But my argument has always been that there is more to physical intimacy than just intercourse, including other bedroom activities, kissing, holding hands, hugging, etc... but she's not really interested in any of these. Most of the time, she shunned me, rejected me, and had an attitude of disgust for anything related to physical intimacy with me.

 

We stopped the book. The fight it caused was unbelievable, and I was more concerned about having some semblance of peace. Things were on a major downward spiral from that point on.

 

With marriage counseling obviously failing, and us not being able to fix things on our own, I felt quite a bit of despondancy. Sex decreased to a frequency of about once every two weeks or so, with maybe something else in the meantime, but most of the time not. Other forms of intimacy were a no go. Dates were few and far between.

 

To top it off, my pastor - and good friend - left the church. There was really no one to talk to about it. Then the stress of finding a new pastor. Add to that I was still battling with the daily struggle of sexual purity. I was tired. Spiritually and emotionally tired. Even depressed at times.

 

September (last) created all new challenges. I was out of town on business. We had a company party in the city I was staying in. I was exhausted from a long day of work and travel. After the party, I met a woman named "H" and a couple other guys. THey wanted to go out to a karaoke bar. I said no (I could tell she was interested in some form) and that I was tired (I was). My boss at the time encouraged me to go, however, since I would develop contacts in my new position. I went. To be honest, a part of me did want to go to have fun.

 

H and I had a great time out with the other two, but it seemed like it was really just us. She was friendly, polite, smiled, touched me, and joked and kidded with me - unlike my wife who is typically unfriendly, impolite, grumpy, does not touch, and does not flirt or joke around most of the time. H and I danced. It was great. My wife doesn't like to dance with me - at weddings or anywhere, she usually doesn't care to.

 

I was enamored. We went back to the hotel. She crashed emotionally and physically. I was concerned. Walked her to her room. Then went back downstairs with the others. They wanted to go out again. I declined. They left. I was still enamored with H, and worried about her since she seemed to crash hard. I decided to go check on her. In the back of my mind, I knew I shouldn't have. A part of me really was concerned. Another part really wanted something to happen. It was the first fun I'd had in a long time.

 

I went back upstairs. Checked on her. Eventually she asked if I would come in and give her a neck rub - obviously a come on. All the alarms were going off, but to be honest, I was just so tired: physically, spiritually, and emotionally. I was tired of the fight. I was tired of the rollercoaster. I was enamored with the possibilities. I knew better, but I went in.

 

I'm sure anyone can guess what came next. We did not have intercourse (thank God), but we did have very inappropriate, physical contact - even sexual. We stopped before intercourse. We both recognized that we had done wrong and talked about it. I even witnessed to her some - crazy huh?

 

I spoke with our new pastor on the ride home (only his fourth day on the job!). He was comforting. I knew right away that I had to tell my wife. Honesty is important in a marriage. Her dishonesty had devestated me years prior. It went well - as well as it could. Things even seemed to get better for awhile. I treasured her more, she seemed to "wake up". I stayed on the board at the prompting of my pastor. He felt that we didn't take "it" as far as it could have gone, and that my repentance was swift, immediate, and that I dealt with it honestly and with responsibility. Though I had doubts,and still do at times, I stayed on the elder board. Things seemed to get a little better.

 

Unfortunately, that was short lived. We're back right where we were before my cheating, except worse. She is even more rude, argumentative, and unphysical. I try to give her space and help out, but to no avail. Nothing works. She has declined every opportunity for counseling, is not interested in speaking with our pastor, and does not want to speak to anyone about it.

 

Sex is rare. We're at two weeks right now. The "other" alternative is just as rare. It's driving me crazy. I am spurned when it comes to any kind of approach: hugging, kissing, touching. I understand that affairs can cause these problems, but it did get better for awhile afterward - and it's been like this long before my cheating.

 

At this point, I am at my wits end. I don't know what to do. It's not getting better. We fight alot! Over stupid things! I try to act civil, but putting up with her attitude is so hard. When I talk to her about it, she just rebuffs me.

 

My friendship with our current pastor is not as strong as my previous. Plus,we have a hard time communicating. I have no friends that I'm comfortable releasing the info about the affair with yet. Counseling has failed. She refuses to try again.

 

I find myself flying back and forth from sticktoitiveness on the one hand and downright depression on the other. I am angry - at myself, her, and God (at times). Faith seems futile and useless at times - where has it gotten me? (The worst part is that as a junior theologian, I know better than this thinking, but I'm too smart for my own good. My annalytical mind has turned upside down in doubt, anger, and skepticism). I'll be stepping down from the board in all likelihood for other theological and practical reasons.

 

I've never been this close to considering divorce. I know it's sin. I've always said that my relationship w/ Christ is what has kept me married. Then it was my relationship with Christ and my daughter. Now, I am ashamed to say, Christ has nothing to do with it. A part of me would just rather do it and deal with the sin afterward. The only thing keeping me married right now is my daughter and the embarassment before family and friends. I just can't do that to my daughter. Unfortunately, I don't know if that will hold out. Sometimes I find myself wishing that my wife would just leave me, get it over with, and get me off the hook.

 

This is going to sound conceited, and I don't mean it that way, but the worst part is knowing that most other women don't treat their men this way - at least in my experience. Also, it would be fairly easy for me to snag another woman (just look at last September). I even know some that I could probably get involved with if I were suddenly single (not that their propositioning or anything like that). I've even found myself wishing the polygamy wasn't sinful! Same w/ concubines!

 

I long for female closeness and intimacy. I love to be romantic and relational. And of course, I love physical activity. I hate being rejected by my own wife. How am I to rejoice in the breasts of the wife of my youth (literally and figuratively) if she is always rejecting me? Again, this is beyond just sex.

 

So anyway, I don't know what to do anymore. Pray seems fruitless. It's gotten me nowhere for years now. I'm hopeless, near faithless, sad, angry, and sometimes depressed. I have good days, days where it seems like all will be well, then a snide comment, a rejective response, or a fight, and all comes crashing down again. I'm racked, stressed, back to tired again - physically, spiritually, and emotionally. I sinfully long for H again because it was so easy with her (even though I know it wouldn't be further along).

 

Help! Sorry for rambling. I just wanted to get all that out. I'm confused, and left with no clue what to do, and I'm sick of falling into depression about this. Help... and thanks.

[sb129]

Your daughter is 3 1/2 and your wife is still sore from episiotomy?

 

Hmmmm. I doubt that very much, sounds like a lame excuse to me.

 

Divorce maybe a sin to you, but living in misery doesn't sound like a better alternative IMO.

The adultery which may result from your longing for female intimacy is also a sin too right?

Surely she isn't happy either from the sounds of things?

your daughter will be strating to pick up on the vibes that mommy and daddy aren't happy, and it will affect her too, probably more than a divorce would.

 

If your wife has baulked at counselling then what else is there to do?

 

You can't continue this way.

 

I am not religious at all, and this is one of the reasons why- it can stop people from getting themselvesout of miserable situations.

Prayer won't help you get your marriage back on track if your W continues to behave in this way and doesn't work on it too..

[Ladyjane14]

Wow... You've got alot of conflict going on in your relationship right now.

I don't know if it'll help you much to know it, but this is a stressful time for alot of young married couples.

 

This is sort of a 'make it or break it' time, and it's not too unusual to see these kind of problems when your family is just getting started and while the kids are small. It's a joyful time in many ways, but there's also quite a bit of anxiety as you adopt new roles. You're suddenly a parent, teacher, protector, provider... for little folks who can't do for themselves. Meanwhile, you and your wife are losing ground in your roles as 'spouse' and 'individual' because you don't always have the time and energy to fully support those roles.

 

 

She asked me not to tell anyone we knew about it - especially our pastor. She didn't want counseling. She just wanted to move forward as if it didn't happen. I honored her wishes (though I have regreted it ever since). I'm not sure if she ever really understood the gravity of what she did. There was a time or two when I cried about it and she just poo pooed me as if I was overeacting. I tried to make it clear that she hurt me. I'm not sure she ever really truly considered it an emotional affair.

 

The first thing I noticed is that THIS was never dealt with appropriately. You know, the last couple of times I've caught the Dr. Phil show, I've noticed him telling couples who are resolving infidelities that 'Unless and until the betrayed partner feels that their cheating spouse FULLY understands EXACTLY what the betrayed partner has been through... the healing will not even begin.'

 

Dr. Phil asserts that the relationship will stagnate and remain right in the moment of betrayal until that understanding takes place. I agree with that. I've notice in reading about Infidelity that people can forgive alot of things. But being minimized in regards to your pain is NOT usually one of them.

 

 

So, in part because of her fear of getting pregnant, and for other reasons that I don't know or understand, sex diminished. Interestingly enough, all physical intimacy diminished. As you married folks know, there are "other" options beside intercourse to express love and enjoy physical pleasure. These wained. In spite of my requests for more to aid in the fact that, as a man I struggle with sexual sin, the physical intimacy continued to decline (about once or twice a week at this point - but stricly as a chore).

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "sexual sin" within the context of the marital relationship. (????)

 

I've been married for 25 years, and what my husband and I have discovered (after resolving some important differences of opinion )... is that a healthy sexual relationship IMPROVES the marital bond. It actually makes us BOTH partners happier.

 

Anyway, this too is a common problem. MOST married couples will go through periods where they notice lop-sided libido. That said, this is an issue which NEEDS to be resolved as it impedes emotional intimacy.

 

We have lots of threads on this subject. I would encourage you to check them out. (And I'm hoping Moose will stop by and investigate this "sexual sin" business with you. His understanding of theology is much better than mine.)

Here are a few to get you started. And if you scroll down to the bottom of each one there are usually links to "similar threads":

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t101000/

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t114655/

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t84268/?highlight=flavius

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t49416/?highlight=flavius

 

 

 

Over the years since our daughter was born, things have gotten worse. My wife has gone from nag to mega-nag. She can be downright mean, disrespectful, and nasty. She can also be real nice too - especially to those other than me. She never (yes, never) says I love you unless I say it first. She is not interested in holding hands, cuddling, making out (even w/ out sex), or anything related to normal intimacy. She doesn't like to go on dates (I do). She initiates no intimacy - ever. In fact, I can count that there have been only two times since our daughter was born that she initiated anything. Also, there was a general lack of politeness and courteousness.

 

All this nagging and lack of courteousness is usually symptomatic of a person who's not happy with their life. Sometimes depression can be a factor and should be ruled out as causal... but more often than not, it's just that life isn't quite turning out how they expected it would.

 

If you think of Marriage as really having THREE entities instead of two, you can probably identify better with what might be going on. Think of it as two Individuals plus the 'Couple Entity'.

 

Sometimes, when a family is just getting started and the two individuals are learning to wear all those other "hats"... spouse, parent, co-worker, home-maker, daughter, son, in-law, and too many others to name... they lose sight of their "individuality". Just like what I mentioned to you earlier. This causes alot of strain to the 'Couple Entity' which depends on two HEALTHY individuals. So, all three of these "entities" require a certain amount of nurturing in order to grow and be healthy. The appropriate energy needs to be applied to each.

 

It could be that your wife isn't just a mean, naggy person. It could just be that she's unhappy because she's not getting what she needs for herself.

 

 

Eventually, I got fed up - and was tired of us fighting. Our pastor highly encouraged us going to marital counseling. We did. We got about four to five weeks into it and she wanted to stop going. She had various excuses, but eventually made it known that she would not be a willing participant.

She wanted to try marriage books instead - an ironic proposal since I wanted to do books for a long time prior, but she was uninterested.

 

Marriage counseling doesn't work for everyone right off the bat like that. Sometimes you need to change therapists and try some different treatment techniques. It might be worth it to you if you try again with a new counselor. But bear in mind that it might have actually been going well with your former MC. You just might not have known it because initially it can stir up alot of hard-feelings while you're trying to identify problems.

 

Anyway, I've got a couple of book titles for you to start with. The most important thing for BOTH of you is to identify ENs (emotional needs) so you can begin addressing them. I would start with The Five Love Languages by Chapman and His Needs / Her Needs by Harley. And even though your marriage isn't "sexless", I think it's important for you BOTH to develop and understanding of how sexual intimacy relates to emotional intimacy... so you might try a copy of The Sex-Starved Marriage by Weiner-Davis.

 

Now, the downside to working at home is that people tend to work at their own pace. So... be prepared to encourage rather than condemn if your wife isn't as enthusiastic as you are.

 

Now, in all fairness, she can still be sore to this day from the epesiotomy from giving birth.

 

If that was over 3 years ago... I'd say she needs to address this with her GYN. That doesn't sound right to me.

 

I spoke with our new pastor on the ride home (only his fourth day on the job!). He was comforting. I knew right away that I had to tell my wife. Honesty is important in a marriage. Her dishonesty had devestated me years prior. It went well - as well as it could. Things even seemed to get better for awhile. I treasured her more, she seemed to "wake up". I stayed on the board at the prompting of my pastor. He felt that we didn't take "it" as far as it could have gone, and that my repentance was swift, immediate, and that I dealt with it honestly and with responsibility. Though I had doubts,and still do at times, I stayed on the elder board. Things seemed to get a little better.

 

Unfortunately, that was short lived. We're back right where we were before my cheating, except worse. She is even more rude, argumentative, and unphysical. I try to give her space and help out, but to no avail. Nothing works. She has declined every opportunity for counseling, is not interested in speaking with our pastor, and does not want to speak to anyone about it.

 

Just like what I told you earlier about how you need your wife to FULLY understand what you went through earlier in the marriage... she needs that too. It sounds like she just shut down on you. I've noticed quite a few people who "don't want to talk about it"... but it's necessary that you talk at least enough with each other to reach this FULL UNDERSTANDING of one another's pain regarding the infidelities. "Space" isn't what you need. Emotional Intimacy is what's going to fix this.

 

In developing "emotional intimacy" within my own marriage, what I've found is that there are a few simple edicts to live by... I can't control what anybody else does... but I can at least make sure that I am doing the right thing. And... I've noticed a good deal of reciprocity in this. IOW, I'm reaping what I sow.

 

The first is this: "I will PRIORITIZE my partner's needs as if they were my own." What that means is that WE are a team ( a 'couple entity'). One cannot "win" without the other. So, what's important to him needs to be important to me.

 

The second thing is simple... "I will be courteous to my partner, treating him in the manner of The Golden Rule as I, myself, would like to be treated." You'd be surprised at how just this one small thing can affect the communications within the relationship.

 

There's one more "edict".... "I will avoid RESENTMENT by taking personal responsibility in resolving conflict." What that means is that I can't AVOID conflict if it means that resentment will build. I have to step up to the plate and resolve whatever issues that need to be addressed. Conflict can be healthy if you approach it with the right attitude, and it's certainly better than nurturing hard-feelings. Resentments can BLOCK the flow of love. They can't be fed or even tolerated.

[sb129]

Brilliant post LadyJane.

 

To the OP -goodluck mate.

[Ladyjane14]

Thanks, doll.

 

As time passes, I think we kind of forget how stressful those early days of family life were, and all the doubts and stress that came along with our new responsibilities.

 

I think this couple has a pretty good shot at working things out if they can get a handle on the problems and then persevere. It's worth it in the long run... at least it has been for me.

[sb129]

Oh yes, I agree, but the W has to want it too. I think you are right, she is showing signs of being unhappy for sure.

[Hard2Think]

You're definitely in the danger zone. I went through the same thing, as many other men have - as you can see from these boards.

 

Looking at your situation from the outside, it looks bad. It looks like you've given this marriage a great shot. I don't think you know what the game is as she's keeping her cards close to her chest.

 

I realize that we as men are brought up with the idea that we're responsible for the happiness of our spouse, which we're told requires "hard work".

 

I used to buy into that idea, but I seem to think that marriages shouldn't require so much hard work. I think the question you need to ask yourself is - would you have gotten married had you known it was going to be like this?

 

I get the feeling you've put in this work and are now frustrated with the lack of results. At some point, I think you need to give yourself persmission throw in the towel if that's what it comes down to.

 

I cheated on my wife - and it was a monumental mess. I didn't have the religious constraints to contend with and it was still a horrific ordeal. I'm not here to tell you to cheat or not - that's your decision. But if you do, I can tell you that you'll get only temporary relief. Don't get me wrong, it'll be great for a short while - but again, temporary. In addition it's not a real relationship in the sense that you have to keep it all hidden, you can't go off anywhere and you'll be paranoid about getting caught in the lies you've woven. In the end, it falls short of what you really want.

 

Many might suggest divorce. And that's tough once you have a child. And for you, and elder in the church, you have even higher hurdles to jump over. (To me, of course, it seems all so hypocritical - your wife suffers little or no condemnation or societal pressure for being your wife in name only ...). I don't have an answer to that. You probably should see a non-church related counselor just to get some perspective,

 

I recently read this book "Too Good to Leave Too Bad to Stay" - check it out on Amazon or your bookstore. It was enlightening to say the least. It may give you a sense of perspective as to whether your relationship is better off dissolved or not.

 

Good luck - you have it tough right now ... but you're not alone.

 

..

I long for female closeness and intimacy. I love to be romantic and relational. And of course, I love physical activity. I hate being rejected by my own wife. How am I to rejoice in the breasts of the wife of my youth (literally and figuratively) if she is always rejecting me? Again, this is beyond just sex.

 

So anyway, I don't know what to do anymore. Pray seems fruitless. It's gotten me nowhere for years now. I'm hopeless, near faithless, sad, angry, and sometimes depressed. I have good days, days where it seems like all will be well, then a snide comment, a rejective response, or a fight, and all comes crashing down again. I'm racked, stressed, back to tired again - physically, spiritually, and emotionally. I sinfully long for H again because it was so easy with her (even though I know it wouldn't be further along).

 

Help! Sorry for rambling. I just wanted to get all that out. I'm confused, and left with no clue what to do, and I'm sick of falling into depression about this. Help... and thanks.

[whichwayisup]

You need to just lay it ALL out on the line with your wife. Get someone to take your child for the day and the two of you sit down and talk about EVERYTHING, and don't hold back. I'm sure it will be painful, who knows what will be said, but atleast you'll both have some idea of what to do next. She need to know how you feel about her mistake with the OM, and you need to talk to her about your experience with the OW. And why.

 

Hopefully both of you will try real hard for the sake of your child. But if it doesn't work out, atleast you'll both know you gave it your best shot.

 

I can't add much more than hasn't already been said.

 

Good luck and keep posting.

[invman]

I don't mean this to sound overly simplistic, but why are you staying?

 

Well, I think it mainly has to do with this beautiful, precious, three year old girl who sees mommy and daddy as the joys of her world and her protecters and keepers. She's proud of us as a family.

 

Also, I made of covenant. A covenant that, at least in the religeous tradition I am a part of, I am not supposed to go back on except for hardness of heart on the spouses part expressed in one of two ways: continued, unrepentant adultery and/or desertion.

 

Neither have taken place.

 

Your daughter is 3 1/2 and your wife is still sore from episiotomy?

 

Hmmmm. I doubt that very much, sounds like a lame excuse to me.

 

I guess I should explain a little more: My wife as eczema on her skin in various places. Due to the episiotomy, her skin eczema flared up ... down there. Sometimes she's ok, other times, sore.

 

I do think it's a lame overall excuse, however, because as I've told her many times, it does not explain her lack of willingness to do other physical activities, nor does it explain her general attitude toward any kind of intimacy with me.

 

Divorce maybe a sin to you, but living in misery doesn't sound like a better alternative IMO.

 

It's funny, I used to say to people who wanted to get married, "Are you willing to live in misery with this person for the rest of your life? That's what you are committing to if this individual changes." Guess I get to experience that firsthand!

 

The adultery which may result from your longing for female intimacy is also a sin too right?

 

Yup. But that should be preventable.

 

Surely she isn't happy either from the sounds of things?

your daughter will be strating to pick up on the vibes that mommy and daddy aren't happy, and it will affect her too, probably more than a divorce would.

 

She has noticed when we fight. We try not to get into it around her though. I think a divorce would hurt her more though. At least now she sees that mommy and daddy can fight but the world is still stable. If a divorce happened, her whole concept of reality would come crashing down. That seems to be the general concensus from most studies done. I just can't do that to her.

 

If your wife has baulked at counselling then what else is there to do?

 

Exactly. What to do?

 

You can't continue this way.

 

That's exactly how I feel. Of course, action is another story. I'm hoping if I just lean in and plow through this some more, eventually there could be a light at the end of the tunnel. (Here's hoping the light isn't a train! :-) )

 

--

 

Wow... You've got alot of conflict going on in your relationship right now.

I don't know if it'll help you much to know it, but this is a stressful time for alot of young married couples.

 

Yup, the proverbial seven year itch!

 

Quote:

She asked me not to tell anyone we knew about it - especially our pastor. She didn't want counseling. She just wanted to move forward as if it didn't happen. I honored her wishes (though I have regreted it ever since). I'm not sure if she ever really understood the gravity of what she did. There was a time or two when I cried about it and she just poo pooed me as if I was overeacting. I tried to make it clear that she hurt me. I'm not sure she ever really truly considered it an emotional affair.

The first thing I noticed is that THIS was never dealt with appropriately. You know, the last couple of times I've caught the Dr. Phil show, I've noticed him telling couples who are resolving infidelities that 'Unless and until the betrayed partner feels that their cheating spouse FULLY understands EXACTLY what the betrayed partner has been through... the healing will not even begin.'

 

Dr. Phil asserts that the relationship will stagnate and remain right in the moment of betrayal until that understanding takes place. I agree with that. I've notice in reading about Infidelity that people can forgive alot of things. But being minimized in regards to your pain is NOT usually one of them.

 

 

Yea, except now that it's years later, I wouldn't even know how to revisit it, especially since I've cheated on her since then. It wouldn't seem right. I've tried to let it go. TBH, I think I've done a pretty good job. I just don't like that it seems like she never really understood that she had an emotional affair. She knew what she did was wrong, but I don't think she ever owned up to the gravity of it.

 

 

Quote:

So, in part because of her fear of getting pregnant, and for other reasons that I don't know or understand, sex diminished. Interestingly enough, all physical intimacy diminished. As you married folks know, there are "other" options beside intercourse to express love and enjoy physical pleasure. These wained. In spite of my requests for more to aid in the fact that, as a man I struggle with sexual sin, the physical intimacy continued to decline (about once or twice a week at this point - but stricly as a chore).

I'm not sure what you mean by "sexual sin" within the context of the marital relationship. (????)

 

 

Oh, things like lust, mental sexual fantasy. Most nonreligious people wouldn't consider this too wrong, but for a Christian - as Jesus said - just to look at a woman with lust is to committ adultery with her in your heart. Obviously, we are not perfect, but I do try to fight that temptation as much as possible. It's tough for men. We're visual beings that have a high drive for sex. It's a tough combination, which is why we need our wives to be there for us physically.

 

I've been married for 25 years, and what my husband and I have discovered (after resolving some important differences of opinion )... is that a healthy sexual relationship IMPROVES the marital bond. It actually makes us BOTH partners happier.

 

I agree. I wish she'd see it that way. She has flat out said that she has no interest in sex though. Even though she orgasms, she still says she's not interested.

 

Anyway, this too is a common problem. MOST married couples will go through periods where they notice lop-sided libido. That said, this is an issue which NEEDS to be resolved as it impedes emotional intimacy.

 

I understand periods of time, but this has been about five out of six and a half years of marriage. I just don't understand. I know women don't usually have as high a libido as men, but in my experience, most women at least want to have sex sometimes. She doesn't.

 

All this nagging and lack of courteousness is usually symptomatic of a person who's not happy with their life. Sometimes depression can be a factor and should be ruled out as causal... but more often than not, it's just that life isn't quite turning out how they expected it would.

 

I agree. I think it's a little of both. I'd like her to see a counselor for herself just as much as I would for us. But she's a no counselor kind of woman I guess...

 

It could be that your wife isn't just a mean, naggy person. It could just be that she's unhappy because she's not getting what she needs for herself.

 

Quite possible! Now if only she would do something for herself! These last few months, she's finally started taking Thursday nights to go out with her sister. I almost had to kick her out for a long time. At least it's a start.

 

Marriage counseling doesn't work for everyone right off the bat like that. Sometimes you need to change therapists and try some different treatment techniques. It might be worth it to you if you try again with a new counselor. But bear in mind that it might have actually been going well with your former MC. You just might not have known it because initially it can stir up alot of hard-feelings while you're trying to identify problems.

 

I think it was working. I think it just got a little too uncomfortable for her. I'll be honest: I've got my own shortcomings. Who likes to face them? No one, but there's no growth unless you do, so I try. I listened to the counselor and I tried. I think it got a little too hot for her. She has never liked to face her shortcomings. Sometimes because she's too proud (she rarely gives a meaningful apology for anything), other times because I think she takes it soooo personally that she doesn't know how to deal with constructive criticism. So she runs from it.

 

Anyway, I've got a couple of book titles for you to start with. The most important thing for BOTH of you is to identify ENs (emotional needs) so you can begin addressing them. I would start with The Five Love Languages by Chapman and His Needs / Her Needs by Harley.

 

We've both read Five Love Languages. Great book btw! We know exactly what each others languages are. The difference is, while I'm not good at acts of service, I do try to do them for her. That is pretty much her one and only language. In fact, the counselor tried to talk to her about that imbalance but I think it fell on deaf ears. Unfortunately, she does not try to express love in my "languages" - meaningful touch, words of affirmation, etc... She does do acts of service for me: She cooks (damn good cook!), and likes to bake. And while I love these things, I would rather have her express love in a way that I understand better. It's a trade off. Unfortunately, she's not giving up the trade.

 

As for Harley, that's the book we tried after giving up counseling. I think it's a great book (I've been through much of it myself), but we had issues after the first woman's need. She was fine, up until it previewed at the end of the chapter that a mans first need is sexual fullfillment. The fight and breakdown that caused was horrid. No thanks. I never revisted the idea again.

 

Just like what I told you earlier about how you need your wife to FULLY understand what you went through earlier in the marriage... she needs that too. It sounds like she just shut down on you. I've noticed quite a few people who "don't want to talk about it"... but it's necessary that you talk at least enough with each other to reach this FULL UNDERSTANDING of one another's pain regarding the infidelities. "Space" isn't what you need. Emotional Intimacy is what's going to fix this.

 

We did talk about it for awhile. She's not a talker though. Ultimately, she just wanted to be left with some space and to forget it.

 

Great overall post btw, Ladyjane! I appreciate the personal input and how you like to approach things (as found at the end of your post). I appreciate it!

 

I get the feeling you've put in this work and are now frustrated with the lack of results. At some point, I think you need to give yourself persmission throw in the towel if that's what it comes down to.

 

I am definately unsatisfied with the lack of results. Unfortunately, or fortunately (depending on perspective), because of my particular religeous beliefs, I do not get to give myself permission to throw in the towel. I can see both sides of this. Used to be I only saw one. I guess that's a benefit now for sure!

 

You need to just lay it ALL out on the line with your wife. Get someone to take your child for the day and the two of you sit down and talk about EVERYTHING, and don't hold back. I'm sure it will be painful, who knows what will be said, but atleast you'll both have some idea of what to do next. She need to know how you feel about her mistake with the OM, and you need to talk to her about your experience with the OW. And why.

 

I can appreciate this advice, and I think it's valuable. Unfortunately, it has been tried. There have been nights when we've both laid it out for hours on end. We come to agreements. We both decide to try better and harder. Then, I try (albeit imperfectly, and I do fail), she typically does not. Which then provides no motivation for me to keep trying because there is no apparent return on my investment. It's an endless cycle.

 

Oh, and I forgot to mention, we have a new conflict looming on the horizon: the birth control she's on she has to stop using in about three months. There's not much else she's able to use without causing migraines. She wants me to get snipped and I have no interest. I want and have always wanted more than one child. At least two if not more. I like big families.

 

When we got married, we both planned on two as a minimum and four as a max. Now, after one, she has no interest in having more. That's depressing in and of itself. I always pictured us as a larger family. I love my daughter, and if all I ever get is her, I'm blessed, but I want more kids. I'm not willing to get the vasectomy. She will likely threaten, as she has in the past, that she will likely get her tubes tied if she can't find another form of birth control. Condoms don't work well for us, mainly due to her skin issues.

 

Thoughts?

[whichwayisup]

Well, due to your situation, having more kids right now is a big no-no. Not until you two work it out.

 

Can I ask why you're not willing to get a vasectomy? I mean, you could store and freeze your sperm.....If that is one of the reasons.

 

Marriage isn't 50-50...It's both of you putting in 100%-100%...You can't jump through hoops for her and then have her give up and not care. That is what it seems like she's doing...Not willing to put in the effort or do any changes.

 

And yes, changes are hard...You're right, it's not easy to admit your own faults....The thing is, she has to look herself in the mirror and see what changes need to be made within herself. UNTIL she understands this, not too much will change. She's happy enough as things are...So it seems.

[invman]

Well, due to your situation, having more kids right now is a big no-no. Not until you two work it out.

 

I agree, however, we have to come up with something within the next three months.

 

Can I ask why you're not willing to get a vasectomy? I mean, you could store and freeze your sperm.....If that is one of the reasons.

 

Sure. To be honest, I'm all about doing things the natural way. I'd rather impregnate my wife through normal means if she changes her mind. Also, there's a part of me that wouldn't mind having another "accident" like our first. It seems like that might be the only way I get another child. I told her we could stop after two, as much as I'd like more than that. Two can be enough.

 

Also, there's that element of "what if we get divorced or she dies" or something along those lines. I'd like to be able to continue to grow the Manning family after something like that - naturally of course. It's just kinda my way of thinking. Not that there's anything wrong with freezing sperm.

 

Marriage isn't 50-50...It's both of you putting in 100%-100%...You can't jump through hoops for her and then have her give up and not care. That is what it seems like she's doing...Not willing to put in the effort or do any changes.

 

And yes, changes are hard...You're right, it's not easy to admit your own faults....The thing is, she has to look herself in the mirror and see what changes need to be made within herself. UNTIL she understands this, not too much will change. She's happy enough as things are...So it seems.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. So the question from my vantage point is "What now?" Sit and wait? Keep trying? Back off and just let things go where they will? Leave? Go to counseling on my own?

 

Those questions are kinda where I'm at.

[quankanne]

could it be the birth control issue coupled with depression and fear of unexpected pregnancy that's creating the tension? You don't necessarily have to rely on artificial means (the Pill, barrier methods, etc) – look into Natural Family Planning methods, which have no physical side effect. The best part about the method is that it can be used to achieve or delay pregnancy, with conscious consideration from both partners. And it's designed to draw a couple closer together as they monitor times of fertility and plan their lovemaking around that.

 

the other issue mentioned, depression: That goes a long, long way in how a person's outlook can change drastically. It's not because they want to respond a certain way, but because an imbalance in their brain chemistry causes them to do so. If your wife had medical problems prior to her pregnancy, that must have done a whammy on her blood chemicals, which are very sensitive. http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=160

 

don't be disheartened, even though things seem tougher than you'd like them to be. Maybe the best thing you can do is to get some time alone from her and ask her what her expectations are of y'alls marriage. You've done a wonderful job of communicating your needs, but it doesn't sound like she's had a true opportunity to do likewise. Maybe she needs validation that she's part of this marriage, too; maybe she doesn't know how to tell you that your marriage just isn't working and she senses that it's time to end it. Either which way, she needs to be able to communicate to you what her needs are, even if she takes a long time to tell you.

 

my church also holds that divorce is wrong, yet there are so many divorced Catholics out there. We do have something called an annulment process, which a tribunal looks at to see if that marriage is truly a sacramental one, and therefore "valid" in the eyes of the Church. It does take into consideration whether both parties were free to marry or if someone was forced into that marriage, if both parties were mature and understood the sacramentality of marriage, and other points. And the person petitioning the Church for the annulment has to provide all kinds of documentation and witnesses to support their claim that the marriage was invalid, or not sacramental. Maybe it would help to see it in terms of this, too – is there something that's been missing from this covenant that renders it invalid, not whole? Just something to mull over ...

[Sevenmack]

Sure you may have cheated on her. But she also cheated on you, even if the infidelity wasn't physically consummated. Either way, there's so many problems in this relationship that I'm not even sure it's salvageable.

 

If there's any chance, you'll need to, as some have suggested, lay it all out on the table. You've told her that you've screwed around, but you must also remind her of her infidelity, her apparent unwillingness to put her all (and then some) into this relationship, and the overall disaster this marriage has become. And if you want to bring religion into this, remember that God doesn't want you spending your life in a miserable state of being. And this is certainly miserable.

 

Essentially you must force her to deal realistically with these problems and agree to embark on a rather difficult repair effort. If she doesn't, you'll have to put an end to this marriage. If it isn't already over in spirit.

[RecordProducer]

Invman, I have a deja vue with your story. I've read stories like this in this forum with deferring from each other in very few details. The common ground is always one thing: married too young.

 

When people are young, they make bad choices more often than not. They fail to comprehend all aspects of their choices and the gravity of making decisions. At age 21 I thought I loved my first boyfriend, but I actually didn't. At age 23 I thought my husband was the one, but I was wrong. We had two children and got divorced. It's easier to make the wrong choice about marriage than the right one. And the younger we are the more naive and ignorant we are.

 

Your wife thought you were the one. But you're not. Everything you wrote indicates that she no longer loves you. While the love might be brought back, she is not willing to work on it. She has outgrown you, her love for you, and your marriage. She is not happy with you and she is ruining the marriage on purpose.

 

She forgave you your infidelity too easily. Things got better right after it, because she was intrigued by you being attractive to other women. But that's a very superficial feeling. If she had any deep feelings for you, she would have been immensely hurt by your confession.

 

The lack of sex and affection, the fights and lack of desire to improve your marriage all imply how she feels about you.

 

You can either turn to yourself and live your own life within the marriage or get divorced. I don't see how you can improve anything when she doesn't want it.

 

She doesn't remember to tell you "I love you" because she doesn't love you!

[Sevenmack]

Recordproducer writes:

She doesn't remember to tell you "I love you" because she doesn't love you!

 

Good point. And this is why I think Ivman isn't likely to save this marriage. In all honesty, I don't think she ever loved him; think about the fact that she conducted an affair with another man that was exceptionally romantic, actually even putting herself out theree for him. She hasn't done any of that with her husband. That's telling.

 

But I can understand why he's working to fix this. It goes against his religious beliefs. It's also an ego letdown; the divorce can make him feel like he failed. But he must realize that he didn't fail; the average relationship barely last six months, much less leads into a six-year marriage. Sometimes the relationship has reached the end of its useful life and that's definitely true when the significant other isn't even working to keep it going.

[markfromark]

there are two sins in your life:

 

1. the sin of divorce, yeah, God really is worried about that, I can see Him sending you straight to hell for that

 

2. the sin of raising your daughter in this environment

[mrmaximum]

there are two sins in your life:

 

1. the sin of divorce, yeah, God really is worried about that, I can see Him sending you straight to hell for that

 

2. the sin of raising your daughter in this environment

 

It's valiant that you are trying to save this marriage, however as upsetting as it is you have to keep this in mind. No matter how much you want it to work, no matter how much you work, you CAN'T push a rope uphill. Now you have to think about your daughter and yourself, this environment is toxic to say the least!! You don't want to be banging you head on the wall and then watch as you daughter grows up with baggage that could have been avoided only if you had simply faced facts. This one is over IMO, just let it go.

[quankanne]

divorce is less a sin than staying in an unhealthy, unloving marriage that doesn't reflect what covenent that it was conceived under. Just wanted to make that clear.

 

at this point, though, it's easy to see why he finds it hard just to walk away everything he's invested himself in, both emotionally and spiritually ... you don't easily give up what you deep down think is a good fight.

 

however, there comes a time when one has to use that sense discernment you've been gifted with, and figure out whether the relationship really can be saved or if it is contrary to what he feels a marriage is in the spiritual sense. I think that would go a long, long way in realizing what is best for children – even if you don't want to submit them to the pain of divorce, it could be that remaining in a troubled marriage could be more toxic than the divorce itself.

[invman]

Sure you may have cheated on her. But she also cheated on you, even if the infidelity wasn't physically consummated. Either way, there's so many problems in this relationship that I'm not even sure it's salvageable.

 

Wow. Those are tough words to read.

 

And if you want to bring religion into this, remember that God doesn't want you spending your life in a miserable state of being. And this is certainly miserable.

 

I believe there is more to what God wants and thinks than can be defined by my personal feelings and state of being. There is something higher to be served than how a feel at any given time. At least that's my perspective. Now living with that perspective - that's tough! :-)

[invman]

Your wife thought you were the one. But you're not. Everything you wrote indicates that she no longer loves you. While the love might be brought back, she is not willing to work on it. She has outgrown you, her love for you, and your marriage. She is not happy with you and she is ruining the marriage on purpose.

 

It's interesting to hear this from the perspective of a woman, because I have been wondering this myself.

 

She forgave you your infidelity too easily. Things got better right after it, because she was intrigued by you being attractive to other women. But that's a very superficial feeling. If she had any deep feelings for you, she would have been immensely hurt by your confession.

 

Oh, she was hurt. I remember her telling me right after I told her about it that she was going to go to the bathroom and cry for awhile and that it'd be best if I left her alone. There were times after this day when she would break down too, sometimes I didn't even see it coming. So I know she was genuinly hurt and bothered by it.

 

The lack of sex and affection, the fights and lack of desire to improve your marriage all imply how she feels about you.

 

My poing exactly - which I have talked to her about, and she assures me that is not the case. But then, don't actions usually speak louder than words?

 

She doesn't remember to tell you "I love you" because she doesn't love you!

 

And there it is...

 

Just for note: I can deal with it if she doesn't love me anymore. Sometimes I think I feel the same way about her. Love is more than a feeling - it's an action. I can handle the feeling going away, what I want is her participation in rebuilding so that the feelings can come back.

[invman]

Recordproducer writes:

She doesn't remember to tell you "I love you" because she doesn't love you!

 

Good point. And this is why I think Ivman isn't likely to save this marriage. In all honesty, I don't think she ever loved him; think about the fact that she conducted an affair with another man that was exceptionally romantic, actually even putting herself out theree for him. She hasn't done any of that with her husband. That's telling.

 

She hasn't done this since our first year and half of marriage. I do believe she loved me at the beginning. We had an AMAZING relationship at the start. Passionate too. I soooo miss that...

[invman]

It's valiant that you are trying to save this marriage, however as upsetting as it is you have to keep this in mind. No matter how much you want it to work, no matter how much you work, you CAN'T push a rope uphill. Now you have to think about your daughter and yourself, this environment is toxic to say the least!! You don't want to be banging you head on the wall and then watch as you daughter grows up with baggage that could have been avoided only if you had simply faced facts. This one is over IMO, just let it go.

 

See, I understand where you're coming from on this, but most pshycological data that I've read disagrees. Divorce is far worse for children, especially at her age, no matter how bad the interpersonal relationship of the marriage is. I can't do that to my daughter. Not interested.

[Scrivdog]

See, I understand where you're coming from on this, but most pshycological data that I've read disagrees. Divorce is far worse for children, especially at her age, no matter how bad the interpersonal relationship of the marriage is. I can't do that to my daughter. Not interested.

 

Then welcome to Hell, son. Because you're living it. You will not change your wife. Not going to happen. I feel for you, I really, truly do.

[markfromark]

Then welcome to Hell

 

see, that's the problem with most people who have been infected with the religion virus, they are willing to live their life in hell so they can be in heaven for eternity, what a waste.

 

I know that I am stopping on a lot of toes here, but religion is a mind virus, sooner or later there will be a vaccine for this one too.