Chapter2 Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 You aren't grossly misunderstanding that particular post, just the one prior to that. And I can speak to "it" SM...I have been betrayed prior to my former relationship with my xmm. I know exactly what it feels like and I also have great empathy for any situation in which someone has been harmed by my hand or anyone elses. If you knew anything about me at all you would know that but you don't and that's okay. I have posted thoroughly regarding my regret and my continued healing. However, its exhausting to see the OP continually take the brunt of something that so obviously took two people to create...not one acting alone. This is an argument no one will win. There are those that have to paint people a certain way in order to live in the circumstances they've chosen. I completely understand that. It's called functioning within your dysfunction and in order to stay in it you have to put others down to be "ok" within yourself. When that happens I start giving it right back. I'm working very hard on ignoring such insults and not responding but, just like everyone else here, I'm a work in progress. Chapter2 – unless I’m grossly misunderstanding her, LJ didn’t call you stupid. She said she didn’t think you could understand what it feels like to have someone “taken” from you – and YES, that’s what it FEELS like, there is no need to argue it from a lofty high ideals standpoint in a forum where people are always talking about how difficult it is to live up to those ideals and fight off messy reality – and of course she’s right. It's not just a person that's being "taken," it's also a sense of security, a worldview...it turns everything upside down and even as you may despise the MM, it is very very difficult not to see the intruding party as a kind of bandit who is trying to make off with your life. This is not rocket science, no, but I think that unless you have been in that situation, perhaps it is well-nigh impossible to truly empathize with that feeling. Stupid has nothing to do with it, but empathy does. And I think LJ's statement to that effect is borne out by this very thread. As a BS, I took the initial post as a lot of melodrama and revenge fantasy playing itself out. I feel sorry for no one there, except, perhaps the OP - and in her case I hope she just wakes up and stops damaging herself. But I don't hate her for being damn angry, because I've been there. And I don't see the point in defending the now-wife, who is hardly an innocent. And every time I go back to the first page to reread what was written I see Tony T's post and it restarts the Days of Our Lives theme music in my head.
Mirror Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 Even when there is forgiveness, there is still pain. Undurable pain. Pain where you understand why people would cut themselves to numb the hurt of the heart. I believe that you have forgiven your MM of all the rollercoasters, and emotions, and pain he has put you through. Do you mean there was never a subdued feeling of wanting karma? Of wanting him to know what it feels like, to appreciate you on being his OW, of everything you put up with? This tramatized W Sara not only put up with her H everyday and night, through it all (instead of, as in affairs, when you can), she did not volunteer herself for this. She did not get caught up in a whorlwind of passion but in the rountine of a marriage. I think what has happened is that some of the BS have found an OW that they can actually relate to and understand and sympathize with.
Chapter2 Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 I agree. I also believe that the pain comes and goes in seasons even if you have forgiven some time ago. It happens to me especially when my xmm interjects himself into my life again and again when he is so clearly uninvited. I didn't ever take the position that I didn't understand sara's pain. Her pain is real and I completely respect and understand that. What I don't understand is applauding the continuing demise (in my opinion) of her self respect and self worth by giving herself physically to the same man who put her in the position she is now in. Would I want revenge in Sara's case? Hell yes, I would. Is this the way to get it...not to me, no. It doesn't show strength, it doesn't show power...it shows an enormous lack of self worth and self love. Even when there is forgiveness, there is still pain. Undurable pain. Pain where you understand why people would cut themselves to numb the hurt of the heart. I believe that you have forgiven your MM of all the rollercoasters, and emotions, and pain he has put you through. Do you mean there was never a subdued feeling of wanting karma? Of wanting him to know what it feels like, to appreciate you on being his OW, of everything you put up with? This tramatized W Sara not only put up with her H everyday and night, through it all (instead of, as in affairs, when you can), she did not volunteer herself for this. She did not get caught up in a whorlwind of passion but in the rountine of a marriage. I think what has happened is that some of the BS have found an OW that they can actually relate to and understand and sympathize with.
serial muse Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 You aren't grossly misunderstanding that particular post, just the one prior to that. And I can speak to "it" SM...I have been betrayed prior to my former relationship with my xmm. I know exactly what it feels like and I also have great empathy for any situation in which someone has been harmed by my hand or anyone elses. If you knew anything about me at all you would know that but you don't and that's okay. I have posted thoroughly regarding my regret and my continued healing. However, its exhausting to see the OP continually take the brunt of something that so obviously took two people to create...not one acting alone. This is an argument no one will win. There are those that have to paint people a certain way in order to live in the circumstances they've chosen. I completely understand that. It's called functioning within your dysfunction and in order to stay in it you have to put others down to be "ok" within yourself. When that happens I start giving it right back. I'm working very hard on ignoring such insults and not responding but, just like everyone else here, I'm a work in progress. Look, it's very tempting for me to respond in kind, to say something like, "if you knew anything about me" etc. etc., such as "you'd know that whenever I post about my situation I always blame my exH for what happened and give him the brunt of the crap". Clearly, we know little about each other, so why make a deal about it then? Like I said earlier, I don't think one side is innocent in this argument, and I certainly - as I have REPEATEDLY said - don't think anyone is innocent in that soap opera the OP posted on page one. If it's even real, about which I have my doubts. You may not have noticed, however, that I actually did not insult you; and thus the bit about insulting others to satisfy your dysfunction, and other vaguely rude stuff feels pretty uncalled-for to me, not to mention waaaaay off the mark. I am biting my tongue from flaming back, but there is just no point, so I will say in all seriousness that I wish you well.
Chapter2 Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 SM, I was referrign to LADYJANE. Not you! You may not have noticed, however, that I actually did not insult you; and thus the bit about insulting others to satisfy your dysfunction, and other vaguely rude stuff feels pretty uncalled-for to me, not to mention waaaaay off the mark. I am biting my tongue from flaming back, but there is just no point, so I will say in all seriousness that I wish you well.
Freedom Now Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 I agree. I also believe that the pain comes and goes in seasons even if you have forgiven some time ago. It happens to me especially when my xmm interjects himself into my life again and again when he is so clearly uninvited. I didn't ever take the position that I didn't understand sara's pain. Her pain is real and I completely respect and understand that. What I don't understand is applauding the continuing demise (in my opinion) of her self respect and self worth by giving herself physically to the same man who put her in the position she is now in. Would I want revenge in Sara's case? Hell yes, I would. Is this the way to get it...not to me, no. It doesn't show strength, it doesn't show power...it shows an enormous lack of self worth and self love. And to encourage her in this dysfunction (in my opinion), is to encourage her to stay in her pain and anger. For she has reduced herself from a wife, who commanded respect, to a plaything. But, it is her life and I won't judge. But, I will not encourage her to continue in this path. It is destructive.
Trialbyfire Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 Yes, TBF, that's right...sara500's husband is making the choice to give himself to her. I'm not sure that was ever a question but if it is for you, then the answer is yes. I was never addressing his behavior...its obviously disgusting...it was her original quote that was addressed. Did I say you said I was stupid? No, I did not. Ladyjane so much as said so in an earlier post but apparently the answer is to put a smiley face after anything you say and that makes it all right. You completely ignored everything else I said which is that you and I disagree. You are free to idealize anyone you choose whether I agree with your opinion of them or not. I am also free to take acception to it as well. As far as forgiveness goes...I'm not convinced that has taken place for many, many, many of the BS's here. I know, I know, I"m oh so wrong about that...uh huh... Based on your attitude, it's no surprise that anyone would take exception to your comments. Shall I use your own logic again? You claim to have been cheated on before and understand the way someone feels. If so, I'm guessing that you've failed to forgive and indulged in a revenge affair. Pot...kettle...black Chapter2.
Ladyjane14 Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 You may not have noticed, however, that I actually did not insult you; and thus the bit about insulting others to satisfy your dysfunction, and other vaguely rude stuff feels pretty uncalled-for to me, not to mention waaaaay off the mark. I am biting my tongue from flaming back, but there is just no point, so I will say in all seriousness that I wish you well. Owww... I bith mine thoo. Seriously, I really don't care enough to be offended. There's no place on this thread where I called her stupid, or even inferred it. And if I'm thinking it... I'm keeping it to myself. It DOES make it difficult to keep the thread on-topic when people want to get personal like this though. And that's a shame, because the OP has brought us a really interesting subject for discussion.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 Actually, now it occurs to me that the turning of the LS tables, OW vs. BS's isn't irony at all. I think perhaps its empathy. The OW, for the most part, are saying THIS IS BAD FOR YOU. Why, because they have been used by MM who took all that they had and gave only what was convenient. I can't remember if it was TBF or Lj who said that the anger and bitterness will only give you wrinkles, been there done that, got the wrinkles to prove it. My wish for Sara is that she can forget he even exists except for the coparenting part, which she will deal with for a long time to come. I do like the fact that someone is exacting justice, I just hate that doing that might hold her back, don't think either of them are worth it. I agree that it isn't healthy, I'm pretty much in line with FN's perspective for the most part. As a BS I CERTAINLY understand the feelings involved in wanting revenge or vengence on either of them, xH and new W, and I have no problem with OP fighting fire with fire. At the same time though, I can't help but to think that she is not getting over this and is hurting herself in the long run. I hope I'm wrong. I've spent years dreaming of revenge scenerios (wouldn't act them out, not my nature) and they just held me back from healing or maybe they were part of the healing process, not sure. I think that most of the OW on this thread are reacting from their experience in the situation that she is now putting herself in just as they seem to when one of their sister OW are dealing with going NC. IMHO.
Trialbyfire Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 It wasn't me IWWH. It didn't give me wrinkles but it certainly wasn't an experience I would repeat. OW and betrayed wives are all reacting. Btw, I had the opportunity to take 10 lbs of flesh and chose not to for assorted reasons but that doesn't make me any better or worse than sara500. Each person has to cure themselves in whatever way they can when victimized. In another situation, not an affair situation, I was physically restrained by someone who was very, very drunk. It was after-hours at work and I thought I was alone in my office. Well, not quite. A drunk co-worker came back from some afterwork cocktails and attempted to stop me from leaving. I managed to slip away and went home shaking and crying. Through most of the night I lay awake thinking about the situation but finally managed to fall asleep. The next morning I woke up and realized that it wasn't so much the attack but that I had been victimized and had no control over the situation. So, the first moment that I could, I isolated him and then physically got very close to him and backed him up to the wall, using my forefinger to strike him in the shoulder to emphasize each cutting point I could. I have never seen such an apologetic man in my life. In this, I empowered myself and got over it. After that, I had no fear in working alone late at night and no fear of men. I think most of you can draw the parallels.
Freedom Now Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 I think you are right, IWWH. We do NOT want her to fall into that trap. And we cannot, in good faith, encourage it.
Freedom Now Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 I think the absurdity of it all is that there are very, very intelligent women here that are cheering on a woman who is doing something quite destructive to herself. And that is sad. IMHO.
Trialbyfire Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 I think the thread name should be changed to "Walk a Mile in Someone Else's Shoes". If you never take the opposite opinion, you never truly begin to understand. Very therapeutic.
IfWishesWereHorses Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 Well, I understand their postition also. Infact, if Sara comes back and tells some incredible story of her vengence and newfound peace I'll be doing the you - go - girl in the back ground. I don't care if she hurts them - its not my style, wouldn't sleep with that SOB if it would save the world but my situation is probably different (in that mine is a serial cheater and I understand that he fuels his ego thru feeling that women desire him). Truth is... it's her life, she gets to make her own decisions and mistakes and as an adult it's her that has to clean up after the party. God knows we all make our own mistakes while finding our way through a war zone, we have no script. Once you own the script chances are that most rational people will change the dialogue enough to influence the outcome differently the second time around.
Chapter2 Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 No, I haven't participated in a revenge affair but I could tell you rain is wet and you'd find fault somehow. I could say many things about you but that doesn't make them fact. If you need to believe that I'm a pot...kettle...black...then please do so. Based on your attitude, it's no surprise that anyone would take exception to your comments. Shall I use your own logic again? You claim to have been cheated on before and understand the way someone feels. If so, I'm guessing that you've failed to forgive and indulged in a revenge affair. Pot...kettle...black Chapter2.
Chapter2 Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 This is what I'm referring to LJ...this, TO ME, is the equivalent of inferring someone is stupid. Since it was directed at me then it matters what I think of it. oops, almost forgot to put a smiley face;) Look, I don't care if you understand what I'm saying or not. Just between you, me, and the fencepost... I don't think you're capable of it.
Trialbyfire Posted March 22, 2007 Posted March 22, 2007 No, I haven't participated in a revenge affair but I could tell you rain is wet and you'd find fault somehow. I could say many things about you but that doesn't make them fact. If you need to believe that I'm a pot...kettle...black...then please do so. Yes, I believe it....same as you believe that betrayed spouses can't forgive. Forgiveness happens on both sides.
Chapter2 Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 TBF, I never said BS's couldn't forgive. You have twisted so much of what has been said its a joke. ALL PEOPLE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO FORGIVE. Yes, I believe it....same as you believe that betrayed spouses can't forgive. Forgiveness happens on both sides.
Trialbyfire Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 As far as forgiveness goes...I'm not convinced that has taken place for many, many, many of the BS's here. I know, I know, I"m oh so wrong about that...uh huh... TBF, I never said BS's couldn't forgive. You have twisted so much of what has been said its a joke. ALL PEOPLE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO FORGIVE. It's about perception, isn't it? The written or spoken word doesn't always contain every sentiment that the poster intended, now does it? Apparently you misunderstood LadyJane and took offense by insulting her. It's no fun to have the tides turned, now is it? It's all about perspective and perception. Now, back on topic. I continue to live precariously through your life sara500. Please continue to post your progress, if you feel that this is the course you need to take in order to regain what was taken from you. I will not denigrate your efforts. Just be very careful not to let him back into your heart, unless this is something that you want to do. If so, make certain that he understands that you're the only woman in a marriage.
NoIDidn't Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 This thread has taken an interesting turn, but its missing a very important note. And, YES, I AM going to GO there. The OWs here are missing the point. Sara is NOT an OW (in generally accepted terms, this man WAS her H). And do you want to know why? Because she isn't sitting at home waiting for his phone call. Because she isn't thinking up new ways to f*ck him crazy in the hopes that he will leave his W. Because she isn't using love as an excuse, in fact, she says that she DOESN'T love him. Because she isn't allowing him to do things to her that he complains that he doesn't do with his W. Because she isn't trying to manipulate her way into getting him to leave to be with her. Because she doesn't care if he is staying for the kids. Because she isn't on this board or others asking "what does it all mean" trying to decipher his every move. To the NewWife, of course she is the OW. But to anyone on the outside, betrayed or not (if you haven't noticed), SHE is using HIM and getting the OW back on the same terms (and let's not talk about being childish, that's so passe and only get's thrown around when someone is trying to belittle someone else). Sure he THINKS he is using her, but not so. You guys are projecting YOUR OW experience onto her. She didn't get lied to and hung around anyway only to later complain about how much MM lied to her. He's telling her all the standard MM lines, but SHE AIN'T BUYING IT (like most OW would). Sara has no hopes to be with this man. She isn't hoping he will leave, even though she is hoping to piss off his now W when she discovers this. This OW turned W is taking every chance to throw her supposed happiness in Sara's face. Don't think the kids don't notice the jabs the OW takes at their MOM. Don't think the OW doesn't try to manipulate those kids when she has them. I know I am reading alot into this post when she didn't say as much, but I have seen this play out in real life. And unlike the OW that accepted the MM's invitation to crap on his M with his previously untainted by betrayal family, these women usually do just fine. There isn't the coming to *support* groups to bash the xMM. There isn't the lamenting about what she did wrong or why wouldn't he stay or not leave or whatever. All this talk of forgiveness or healing is really wasted. This IS her healing. Its letting her know that in regards to his cheating in her M to him, it wasn't about her. And she can walk away with that knowledge. I ain't saying that its right, it just is. Don't know what *I* would do in this circumstance, but I imagine her xH came to her (pun intended) wanting this arrangement and NOT the other way around. I do think I'd be tempted to sleep with my ex (if he was my ex) if the opportunity presented itself. Who hasn't wanted to do it "for oldtimes' sake"? Just my 2 cents. Feel free to disparage my comments as BS, BS.
whichwayisup Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 I've said all along, my only concern is for their kids. The affect it will have on them to have to go through another breakup involving their dad. Another change, another move, another house/apartment to get used to... Or maybe she is just joking around when she says she's going to tell the new wife that she has been banging her exhusband...I just hope if she does decide to go through with it, it causes those kids as little confusion and pain as possible. But, then again, it's a mute point UNTIL and IF she spills it. Or, if she does spill it, who knows? Maybe the new wife will forgive him and all will be OK. Good post NID.
NoIDidn't Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 WWIU That's the thing. The kids. If my dad would have been sleeping with my mom while M to my stepmom, I would not have considered THAT an A. She would've, but they are MY parents. As an adult, I can see the moral implications, but as a kid, I can only see MY parents. In this sitch, I doubt very seriously that her kids will see infidelity. They will more than likely be relieved that it seems that their parents are getting back together. Even adult children of D have been polled as having high hopes of their parents getting back together. The newW isn't family to them (or should I say, not this early in the game anyway). If she bowed out and the parents DID take this dalliance into remarriage, the kids will most likely remember her and their half-sibling as a rough patch that they are glad they got over. Kids are not only resilient, they are selfish, too!!!
lovernotafighter Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 Slow the plot down, laddie, Slow the plot down. Way-hey! Slow the plot down. Just scuttle the story and run 'er a-ground. We'll try so hard to slow the plot down Sorry everyone, this thread just is way way to serious for me tah!
Chapter2 Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 TBF, you are behaving like a child. If anyone were to crop various sentences from all your posts then the exact could be said for you as far as "turning of the tides"... Thank you for pointing out again for me that I did not say "all"...I clearly said "many". Grow up. It's about perception, isn't it? The written or spoken word doesn't always contain every sentiment that the poster intended, now does it? Apparently you misunderstood LadyJane and took offense by insulting her. It's no fun to have the tides turned, now is it? It's all about perspective and perception. Now, back on topic. I continue to live precariously through your life sara500. Please continue to post your progress, if you feel that this is the course you need to take in order to regain what was taken from you. I will not denigrate your efforts. Just be very careful not to let him back into your heart, unless this is something that you want to do. If so, make certain that he understands that you're the only woman in a marriage.
whichwayisup Posted March 23, 2007 Posted March 23, 2007 WWIU That's the thing. The kids. If my dad would have been sleeping with my mom while M to my stepmom, I would not have considered THAT an A. She would've, but they are MY parents. As an adult, I can see the moral implications, but as a kid, I can only see MY parents. In this sitch, I doubt very seriously that her kids will see infidelity. They will more than likely be relieved that it seems that their parents are getting back together. Even adult children of D have been polled as having high hopes of their parents getting back together. The newW isn't family to them (or should I say, not this early in the game anyway). If she bowed out and the parents DID take this dalliance into remarriage, the kids will most likely remember her and their half-sibling as a rough patch that they are glad they got over. Kids are not only resilient, they are selfish, too!!! Oh I understand that, the problem is though, the parents are NOT getting back together. And I'm sure they don't see the new wife as their stepmom.
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