Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen...

[Bonni]

I met a guy about a month ago and we've been having a casual relationship ever since. It's been difficult because I love his charm; personality; sexy looks; power status; and intelligence, but loathe the fact that he can also be selfish and immature. When he paid attention to me I felt like the luckiest girl in the world. But the rest of the time he treated me like crap, calling me up to meet at late hours; getting irritated if I asked him to go out of his way for me; refusing to engage in any public display of affection etc. Last night was the final straw - he got really drunk and after meeting up with me and basically ignoring me the whole night, I went back to his place (stupid, I know!) and he passed out while we were making out - then when I had to wake him up to get his address (for a cab) he got almost angry with me, because i had interrupted his precious sleep. I left and promptly deleted his number, because I felt he had been way too disrespectful. But some of my friends think I overreacted, and say I should give him a second chance - after all, he was probably just tired and cranky. It's true that I haven't liked anyone as much as him for about 2 years - even though he takes me for granted I can't stop thinking about him.

 

I don't plan on calling him, but if he contacts me - should I continue on with things or tell him where to go? I don't think I have the will power to tell him to get lost, he really has made me feel like a new person this past month. I don't think that common sense is going to win out here!

[Ally Boo]

....there is nothing else for me to say...

[Bill]

again... I say why do girls stay with guys that treat them like Sh*t?

 

You just make excuses for him! Time to put out the trash.

[yes]

i know how u feel, believe me. knowing smth's wrong is nothing - u just wont be able to tell him to get lost. i think after a lil white though, u'll get fed up with his behaviour & drop him. when this happens to me, i simply wait till i'm fed up & make sure to use lots of protection meanwhile.

 

i think it's something u gotta do when u'r yonge - go through a couple of bastards... then u get over it

 

good luck

-yes

[Tony T]

It's really sad that you even have to ask about this. Anybody with an ounce of self-respect would never have anything to do with this guy again. And they would be reviewing the status of friends who advised to give him a second chance.

 

I'm sorry it took you two years to find what you thought was a good deal but you need to just forget about this. Don't let it set you back. Look forward to the future and absolutely insist that men...and everybody else...treat you decently with respect!

[yes]

there's disrespect & then there's just lack of proper treatment. what he did that night is right out rude, but i'm talking about the general case of gals sticking around guyz who don't treat them well.

 

i dunna how it happens, but sometimes you just feel good about doing something you shouldnt be doing. so it's like "oh he's so bad, but i can't resist him". so basically the worse he treats, the more you feel like you should tell him off, the more you feel like you're doing smth you shouldn't be doing... weird psych?

 

-yes

[Haley]

I think Tony is being too rational here! It seems to be a phenomenon attached only to women, but the bad boys always seem to win out. I know that it's taken me four disfunctional relationships with 'dangerous' types to finally come to my senses and go for someone who treats me with respect. But even though I am now with someone you might describe as a sensitive, new age type, I still long for the excitement and anticipation of being in an unpredictable relationship. It doesn't make sense but I'm sure many of the women on this board can relate. So Bonni, it's battle between your heart and your head here. You know the only thing to do is get rid of the jerk, but it's much harder than it first seems. Try and get on with your life, go out and try and find someone else, so that being with him won't seem like your only choice. Or do what I did - stop sucking up and give him his own back. Next time you meet do so on your own terms and make it clear that you're not a push over. Who knows, he might snap back into reality and start treating you better.

[Tony T]

YOU WRITE: "I think Tony is being too rational here!"

 

If being too rational is terminating a relationship with a guy Bonni wrote was treating her like crap most of the time, then I guess you're right.

 

I don't allow people to treat me unkindly, even for a short period of time. If you allow that, they will have no respect and continue becoming steadily worse in their treatment.

 

I know when to give second chances and when not to...but in Bonni's case it seems like she's given him many chances and he continued treating her nasty.

 

But I do recognize that there are people who don't mind being treated poorly and having people show them no respect or consideration and they are certainly free to live their lives as they like...yes, of course.

[yes]

that most guys are either predictable, or treat you not-so-well. for some reason, all the nice ones are just consistently nice, and it gets boring. i'm sure it's more suitable when u'r trying to create a family, but when it's just dating, you want fun, excitement, and total unpredictability. that's how we end up w/ the bad boyz. Note that it usually doesn't go as far in disrespect as in bonni's case - it's just a matter of the guy not letting you rule the game.

 

-yes

[Bill]

sorry, I can't be mean to a girl

[yes]

big diff-ce between mean and unpredictable!

for some reason nice guys dunna how to be unpredictable, at least not the ones i've met so far.

 

-yes

[midori]

I don't think that what is appealing in a guy who isn't always nice or dependable is the bad treatment, as such. The problem with nice guys is that they don't raise much curiosity -- there doesn't seem to be much to discover about them, they're more or less known quantities. Yes, predictable ... but I don't think it's the unpredictability of not knowing when the guy you're dating is going to call you next, or if he's going to call you at all, that keeps women going back to men who treat them poorly.

 

How many of us have met a guy whom we really seemed to click with, it seemed very mutual and there was no mistaking his interest -- but he doesn't call, or he flakes out on plans, or whatever. I start to wonder, "what's up with this guy, why is he being inconsistent?" Like there's a mystery to solve and that makes him more enticing. It has taken me quite a while to realize that this initial show, while engaging, is a bad sign. Once I have started to wonder and puzzle over a guy's inconsistencies, I forget to look at his behavior overall, at the larger and more obvious implications. I set myself up to see his lack of consideration, or whatever, as another instance of this puzzle -- "why is he so thoughtless when it's clear that he loves me? I'll find the answer, and then he'll stop being thoughtless, and everything will be great." Not that I have consciously thought that, but that's definitely what has happened with me, more than once.

 

It's funny, because when I first met my most recent ex-boyfriend, for example, I wasn't inclined to be patient or generous. We met at a party (at the top of the World Trade Center, talk about doomed). He called me to ask me out for dinner, but then a couple of days later he asked if we could re-schedule because he had forgotten he had a langauge class the evening that he'd planned to take me out. Right there I was inclined to forget the whole thing and just blow him off -- the guy can't even check his calendar before asking me out? Seemed like a game to me, and I was going to decline, but a friend convinced me to give him a break. We really hit it off on our first date, and I started to blind myself to the implications of his behavior, which continued to be self-absorbed and inconsiderate. Plus, once we were physically involved it was even harder for me to disentangle what I felt from what was going on. And as annoying and hurtful as his behavior was, there was also something about it that roused my curiosity. "How could a man who made love to me the way he did last night be so distant and sullen today?" Etc.

 

I don't think it's a straightforward question of insecurity on the woman's part. It's not even a complete failure to recognize that she deserves better, she knows or she wouldn't be complaining or wondering about his behavior. If you're too caught up with putting the little pieces of the "puzzle" together, you won't see the big picture that the pieces are forming -- even though everyone aroiund you sees it.

 

And of course this can happen to guys too. I think that people who are too eager to have love in their lives are perhaps prone to making this kind of mistake; once the initial idea is planted that this (thoughtless & selfish) person might be the one (as soon as the "mystery" is resolved), they commit themselves to making that happen, blinding themselves to reality. I also think that people who don't have other things that consume their attention & energy are more prone to this kind of mistake. While it has taken me a long time to get over my ex & the hurtful things he repeatedly threw at me, I'm so busy these days that I have neither the time nor the patience for shenannigans from the guys I date. And besides, I've learned my lessons the hard way. Wanna consume yourself with buring questions? Figure out who elected the idiots we have running our country, or why fat teenagers think that suing McDonald's is reasonable or responsible. Why waste your time on a selfish jerk who gets drunk & passes out in front of you and adds insult to injury by being churlish? There's actually no mystery there: despite occasional signs to the contrary, he is in fact a selfish jerk who doesn't really care about you at all.

[Tony T]

midori has set it forth in an superb way...what she has written is eloquent and I wish I had had the luxury of her prose many years ago.

 

But he bottom line is that each person has to resolve this, just like midori did.

 

Even though every word midori has written has tons of truth in it, the fact remains that most human beings who are participating in the mating game simply aren't into predictability, aren't into consistent niceness...it's a nature that promotes phoniness in otherwise nice, kind and considerate people.

 

It's also a syndome that drives so many people into picking the wrong mate...because they were and are a challenge rather than because they are sincerely decent.

 

This question will last until the end of time. I am a great promoter of people being a challenge simply because being predictable drives most of the opposite sex away. Yet, as midori states, predictable, consistent, stable, kind, generous, thoughtful, etc. are not traits that raises the passions of the opposite sex...at least initially.

 

Go figure....

[midori]

I agree that everyone has to make the discovery on their own. And some never do. To be honest I'm not entirely sure that I've fully bought it -- I've started and stopped dating more nice guys than I can count in the last year. I still want someone who rouses my curiosity, who makes me want to know about them.

 

A guy friend and I were talking about an ex girlfriend of his whom he feels a lot of guilt toward, even though he didn't mistreat her. She was just too "nice," too perfect, never showing any rough edges at all, and he just found it impossible to really connect to her. She didn't rouse his curiosity, because she was always presenting a smooth facade, always understanding, always so perfect. It's kind of hard to get to know a person who's like that.

 

Think about the people you're friends with -- my best friends have disappointed and offended me at different times in the course of our friendship, and I know that I have done the same to them. It's inevitable -- it's actually what friendship is about, knowing that the other person wants to maintain the tie DESPITE the fact that you mess up sometimes. Now, I don't consider people who have consistently disappointed me to be my friends -- there are limits, and someone who genuinely likes me and cares about me isn't going to abuse my friendship. The same is true for romantic relationships. There are boundaries, and it's better to not cross them much, if at all. But we're human, we make mistakes.

 

I think the thing about men or women who come across as too "nice" is that not only are they rather boring (and they are boring, they're too nice to commit the kinds of faux pas and moronic blunders that are the kind of things people laugh and bond over), but they set an impossible standard and start to make the other person feel like they too must be perfect, or that they're the only ones who are showing their true colors. Being perpetually and invariantly nice is a little unrealistic, and I think it's something people hide behind when they're not prepared to make themselves vulnerable to the other person. Showing yourself warts and all is a bit scary -- because then if you get rejected, the person is rejecting the REAL you.

 

Some people go too far in the opposite direction, with the attitude, "well this is who I am and if he doesn't like it too bad." That's no good either. I think the sign of mature characer is to be able to remain true to yourself but to be simultaneously considerate of other people. And to face up to the fact that there will be times that, despite your best intentions, you let the people you care about down.

 

We ALL get annoyed with our friends sometimes, whether because of an annoying little habit of theirs or because we're cranky; usually it's some combination of the two. But if the person in question is Super Nice, you can't show your annoyance without feeling guilty. Which is, in and of itself, even more annoying.

 

These are such subtle little pieces of interaction with other people. But the bottom line is, I think, that normal people do not deliberately seek out lovers who have no regard for their feelings, or friends who abuse their kindness. When people chronically tolerate such treatment, I think it's because they're wrapped up in the "mystery" of the other person, failing to see the bigger picture. Maybe some people actually do say, "Well, Janet treats me like dirt but I'm lucky that someone like her even wants to be friends with me at all, and at least she invites me out with her friends on the weekends so I have something to do." But I haven't craved acceptance like that since the 8th grade.

[Tony T]

This is GREAT stuff!!! It's all 10,000 percent correct. You've obviously done a lot of thinking about these matters.

 

You are WAY TOO PERFECT for me, babe!!! You are spot on, as they say in the UK.

 

It's too bad this romance stuff, in an underlying way, has to be so complicated. And to take it even a step further, I think a lot of marriages fizzle and become stale and boring because one or both of the partners behaves as you have described.

 

I just don't know what the answer is. There are a few people who are lucky enough to pick up on this stuff as well as you have. And I'm glad you mentioned the part about friends being more or less consistently inconsiderate vs. the ocassional slip-up.

 

I guess I ought to bend just a little bit more than I do. I'm not very tolerant of people who treat me nastilly, even once. However, I think you've convinced me to maybe give them back a taste of their own medicine rather than have a knee jerk reaction.

 

I just wish that all this wasn't necessary. But I do absolutely have to admit that more timesthan not I have been totally turned off by completely wonderful, kind, sweet, intelligent, sexy, sensous, generous, thoughtful, forgiving, loving, etc. women because they were just plain too nice.

 

And I also have to admit to you that so many times I have looked back and wished that just one of them was back in my life now. That's what I've also learned....once you reject somebody because they just don't produce the necessary electricity, somebody else scarfs them up pretty quickly. There is seldom the ability to revisit the relationship. These ladies do find men who will adore them for who they are.

 

Oh, if only I could live my life over again. I so so so so want to believe in reincarnation...I really do. We spend our entire lives learning so many lessons...only to relax in our graves comtemplaing these matters.

[Bill]

She was just too "nice," too perfect, never showing any rough edges at all, and he just found it impossible to really connect to her. She didn't rouse his curiosity, because she was always presenting a smooth facade, always understanding, always so perfect. It's kind of hard to get to know a person who's like that.

 

I've been completely nice to all of my girlfriends. Does someone have to have flaws to land a relationship that works? I have my flaws, but they are never really known to most people. I'd expect people to "flame" me on this board if I said what any of these flaws are. I am however completely nice to a girl that I'm dating. I do not expect to have to not call her to get her to like me.

 

You make excuses for these guys that treat girls like sh*t. If I ever saw a guy treat a friend of mine that is a girl like that I'd make sure he knows what happens. That Mystery man of yours would get his a$$ kicked. Yeah, he looks so tough on the floor.

 

I say that because it has been done before. I can't stand seeing them do that to girls.

 

I think it all has do with the person that you meet, even if they are nice, ... it just has to do with THAT person that you can actually connect for some reason.

 

To have to want someone that gives you mystery in life is sad. This mystery you describe is called "treating like Sh*T".

[midori]

um, I think you missed the point I was trying (perhaps without success) to make: people AREN'T looking for mystery, or for abuse, or even for rudeness. I think that most people just walk away from people who are wholly awful. The mystery comes in when they behave inconsistently: nice 50% or even 70 or 80% of the time, but thoughtless or worse the rest. No one is nice 100% of the time. A 100% nice person is either faking it, lobotomized, or hails from certain regions of the Midwest (and I can say that cuz I grew up there, but yes that's a tongue-in-cheek remark. Somewhat).

 

I have been guilty of being too nice myself. I think that's one genuine complaint my ex-boyfriend could make about me. I didn't give him much room to criticize me. I didn't feel secure in the relationship (because of his inconsistent behavior) and my reaction was to not give him anything to complain about. I wasn't being entirely genuine with him. I was biting my tongue so often it's a wonder I didn't bite it off. I wasn't doing it deliberately or consciously. It was a defensive move on my part.

 

No one is attacking nice guys or nice girls here. I am largely held by the people who know me to be an incredibly nice person. Except by a couple of random people who have had run-ins with me on a bad day, and they probably think I'm an utter b*tch -- but in the nicest possible way, I'm sure. In part my niceness is due to the fact that I come from a culture of niceness (again, the Midwest. If you don't know what I'm talking about and you're from the Midwest, try leaving it for the East Coast and see how different things are). In part (I hope) my niceness stems from the fact that I actually am nice.

 

But the people who love me the most love it when I show that I'm not always nice. They love it when I make sarcastic remarks or vent (in a usually humorous way) about an annoying person or situation. They love to laugh with me when I tell them about the latest incredibly stupid, bone-headed thing I've done. They don't even mind when I tease them about their own foibles (coming from a culture of niceness I often have a hard time doing this last thing because it feels so mean). And they forgive me when I'm tired, grumpy, stressed out or just plain selfish. Which I am from time to time.

 

Really, are all of your friends just nice? Do you all sit around being constantly nice to each other? Never poke fun at each other? Never goof up, say something that inadvertently offends? Nice 100% of the time sounds to me like a bunch of old ladies sitting in a church basement drinking tea. Nice 100% of the time sounds to me like someone who walks around on eggshells 100% of the time. Aren't you sometimes a jerk, despite yourself? Aren't you sometimes a jerk because you mean to be a jerk? I am, on both counts. Ask my younger sister. Or my parents. Or any of my friends. But they still love me.

[Tony T]

I wrote the book....you just worded things better. I totally understand the points you have made, have copied your posts onto a word document for future reference. Your stuff is priceless. You are GREAT!!!

[midori]

Oops, I wasn't addressing that to you, that was for Bill. But thanks! It's always good to know I'm not marooned in my own little lonely perspective.

[Tony T]

You are writing some terrific stuff....I have dreamed for a female to write such an eloquent perspective on this subject. If you have more, I beg you to set if forth here and now. I eagerly await more, more, more!!!

[midori]

wow, thanks, I'm so flattered. Really, that's high praise coming from you Tony. I will try to say more, maybe tonight, but in the meantime I suggest for anyone who's interested in this issue to read "In a Different Voice" by Carol Gilligan. It's an incredibly insightful book about how women in relationships (romantic, familial, friendly) will silence themselves in order to maintain the relationship. So that the relationship itself takes precedence over the genuine self. It's not just women who do this but it's more common among women. I took a seminar last year with Carol Gilligan and it was key to opening my eyes on what I had been doing to myself for a long time. I haven't directly plagiarized anything from CG but my current perspective would not be possible had I not had the incredible good fortune to read her, and listen to her, and speak with her.

[Tony T]

I think many people who are way too nice have deep fears of rejection if they make waves, express some of their true feelings, or otherwise are true to their own person beliefs and conduct.

 

People who are too nice are that way out of fear of abandonment, insecurity or for some other pathological reason.

 

Unfortunately, they don't understand that having an honest, upfront relationship based on expression of true feelings is far superior and is likely to produce a more lasting relationship than one where there's a lot of fake behavior in the interest of preserving a big, fat lie.

 

The nicey thing doesn't work in the end anyway.

 

It is never a good idea to silence yourself, especially about critical issues in a relationship. Some things can be easily overlooked but to remain passive about elements that one may depise or be repulsed by for the sake of keeping the peace is insane and grossly dishonest.

 

The reason we date people is to find out if they are right for us...not to keep our mouths shut in terms of making the proper adjustments.

 

If someone remains passive in the face of unpleasant behavior, sooner or later they will explode and the relationship will be over. It could be over sooner since the other person may be sensing the fakeness.

 

Now there are a few people who are just easy going and nothing bothers them. I don't know how you deal with those.

 

Come on, midori, answers please!!! Oh, yes, thank you for the suggestion of Carol's book. I was stranded on her Island once after a three-hour tour.

[Bill]

hrm, I defined being nice as showing your true feelings.

 

I just thought it is being nice to show your true feelings. Are you all talking about someone who is fake being nice, hiding stuff, that kind of nice? Like putting up a front?

 

ok, now hrm.......

 

In relationships I tell the truth. If I have a problem with something, I bring it up, and I expect the other to bring it up as well.

 

Sorry for the misunderstandings...

 

Good job ->> Midori, Tony....

[Tony T]

A person is too nice when they:

 

1. ...avoid conflict or confrontation of any kind, when it is necessary to resolve differences, for the sake of keeping the relationship conflict free and "nice."

 

2. ...give too much too soon in a relationship. Sending flowers, giving gifts, sucking up too much too soon after meeting someone can totally destroy the possibility of a future relationship. That same behavior later on can certainly do a lot of damage.

 

3. ...sacrifice their own self interests and feelings in favor of the other person in order to "make brownie points" or get a person to like you more.

 

4. ...are always there when needed, sacrificing one's own schedule; returning calls immediately; constantly giving gifts or doing favors to try to win the other person's love.

 

5. ...are quick to apologize and take the blame for every little thing that goes wrong, regardless of whose fault it is, in order to try to preserve the relationship.

 

There is a very big difference between being naturally nice and giving up your entire self in order to win somebody's heart or preserve a relationship.

 

Most people aren't too nice so they are highly suspect of any person who offers too much, too soon and who is diabetes sweet. That behavior just doesn't compute for most people.

 

People who don't understand this concept, who tend to just be way too nice in order to impress somebody, will quickly find it will have the totally opposite effect...and they will never understand where they went wrong.

[midori]

And I think it can backfire even in its less extreme forms.

 

Like Tony was saying about rearranging one's schedule, etc. just to suit the other person. Are they doing the same thing for you? Is this being done for a special, one-time thing, or is it common?

 

It's about balance: both sides being open & honest with each other. Both sides feeling like they have a margin of error -- that is, they're not going to get dumped the minute they don't do something "just right" or say the "wrong thing."

 

And if there's an imbalance it can affect all apsects of interaction. A "too nice" man or woman is boring because they never take any risks -- never make an off-color joke, never say anything that might be controversial or, if they happen to by mistake, they immediately retract it in light of someone's challenge. They're so busy trying not to rock the boat that they don't notice it's dead in the water.

 

That's the problem with being too nice. As I have learned, to my cost. And as I encounter on many of the dates I go out on, to my annoyance.

 

Now, poor Bonni, who started this post, has the exact opposite problem: she was seeing a man who was not nice at all. I hope she has stopped bothering with him.