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Posted

I find it ironic that Ellen Fein, one of the authors of "The Rules" ended up divorced.

Posted
I find it ironic that Ellen Fein, one of the authors of "The Rules" ended up divorced.

 

Who knows... knows. Who does not know....preaches/teaches.

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Posted

WOW!! I havent been at my computer for a few days, and i see i really hit on something mentioning the rules! all valid points by everyone..i think the main thing with the rules is, for example the "not callign and rarely returnign calls" is to let him chase you a little . all this stuff sound so old fashined, phony, maniipulating crap. but really i have found that it works better than not. in the past with men, i have soemtiems asked men for their numebrs, or called them after a date first, and as the book states, if a man is truly into you he will call YOU, he will approcah you at a singles eevt, etc. and my BF now will tease me about not calling him, but then guess wht? he calls ME. and if i insist he open the car door for me, why not? we want respect and we want men to feel like men.......bu otehr times i can be easy going, i pick my battles. like the books main point BE HARD TO GET BUT EASY TO BE WITH. anyone disagree? men, please!! what do you say??

Posted

Quick rundown...

 

I met a woman two weeks ago, got her number (she offered it and she was interested in me.)

 

The next week, she dropped me a text message before I could call her. She dropped my texts all week. We talked that night, and she said she was going to Vegas for a softball tournament. (btw she's 38, has two teenage daughters, and I'm 29 without children). She invited me to go to Vegas after only having talked to her for one hour!

 

The next week, she returned, we went on a lunch date for an hour. We had pleasant conversation, she looked me in the eye and vice versa, it was good.

Later on that week, she had to go out of town for work for three nights but she still texted me at work and we talked a few times on the phone.

 

Last weekend, we met up and went on a date on Saturday. We went out to dinner and following dinner we went to a karaoke bar where she sang, we played pool, and shuffleboard and had a good time. (I was shy at first but I came out of shell.)

During a few of our games I gave her a hug and the hug lingered on for a very long time and she said "Err hmm.. that was a good hug". (this happened several times.

 

End of the night, I drove her home, we kissed twice and I asked her when we could see eachother again. She said "Tommorrow" with a smile and I thought that perhaps we could all see a movie with her kids (who I had met earlier that nite. It didn't bother me.)

 

The next day, I rang her, and she invited me over for a movie instead. Well, that changed from being invited to a movie to meeting her and her girls at a park for a softball game. I showed up and couldn't do much because I just had my knee fixed but I did okay. (She's VERY athletic and I have to lose about 15. I've already lost 60 lbs last year).

 

Anyway, we were out there for about an hour when one of her teenage daughters went into the restroom and called for her. She came back out and said "I've got to go. My daughter isn't feeling well and I'm taking to her to the doctor." I said okay, gave her a hug and told her to let me know if she was up for something later. She said that she'd give me a ring.

 

Well..that evening, I thought I'd be nice and drop her a non-intrusive text message. I asked her how the doc went and she said that she got a script for her daughter and also said that she was sorry that she had to cut our fun time short.

 

I replied with "Glad to hear that your daughter will be feeling better soon. You'll never have to say for sorry for that. I had a great time this weekend."

 

3 hours later, I get a message back saying that she had a great time too (this is now 10 PM).

 

I respond with you betcha! Goodnite. She sent me a message that said "Goodnite and Sweet Dreams M!" I responded quickly with a "sweetdreams to you too and a graphic rose." She responded with a "Thank you for the rose!"

 

Yesterday, I woke up, sent her a text message (because I knew she was at work) and I said good morning Fastball, I hope your day is well (she loves softball and is a very good player.

 

I got nothing back from her. No response, no reply, nothing.

I didn't call her or send her anymore text messages. I'm wondering if I should call her tonight or wait one more day? Part of me feels that If I don't call her tonight, that she may think I'm being petty because she never responded.

 

However, the other part of me wonders if maybe her interest level in me dropped off yesterday following the softball game when I was thrown in with her family. (perhaps her daughters didn't like me? I was pretty quiet but only because I don't know all of them yet.)

 

Anyway, what do you guys think I should do? Call her tonight or wait one more day? Personally, I think I should wait one more day but the other part of me really wants to call her.

Posted
WOW!! I havent been at my computer for a few days, and i see i really hit on something mentioning the rules! all valid points by everyone..i think the main thing with the rules is, for example the "not callign and rarely returnign calls" is to let him chase you a little . all this stuff sound so old fashined, phony, maniipulating crap. but really i have found that it works better than not. in the past with men, i have soemtiems asked men for their numebrs, or called them after a date first, and as the book states, if a man is truly into you he will call YOU, he will approcah you at a singles eevt, etc. and my BF now will tease me about not calling him, but then guess wht? he calls ME. and if i insist he open the car door for me, why not? we want respect and we want men to feel like men.......bu otehr times i can be easy going, i pick my battles. like the books main point BE HARD TO GET BUT EASY TO BE WITH. anyone disagree? men, please!! what do you say??

 

When you play hard to get you are confusing him. He is not sure about your interest level. He will drop you because he thinks you are not interested and he knows it hardly ever helps to chase a girl more. You trigger negative thoughts - why she doesnt call me? Did I something wrong? Is she playing games? - and his interest level in WHAT HAPPEND - I SHOULD REAPIR IT goes up but his real interest level in YOU goes DOWN. He is interested in game not in you then.

 

Rules should be practised for one reason only. Guys faking high interest level to bed you and run. And weed out guys who become aggressive or clingy ...who panic in first signs of problems. End of Story. Play these power games too much and you annoy him...the more quality man he is the sooner he pulls out.

 

Rules are to help you to control your emotions. To help you better hide your interest level in him....before him and before you (Im such a prize I dont need him).

 

The girls you want to marry the same day you meet them so to speak are the ones who are naturally confident&fun and you can feel it. They also have no need for playing games and emotional manipulation. If they are interested they invite you themselves, they call you. And if I find them attractive Im happy about it. If I dont find a girl attractive she can prolong the game by playing games but she wont make me like her more...quite the contrary.

 

Not to appear easy. Are you promiscius that you need to state that you are not? Hell Im glad when girl is OK with everything very soon....it means she has confidence in me, trusts me.

Posted
and my BF now will tease me about not calling him, but then guess wht? he calls ME. and if i insist he open the car door for me, why not?

 

Oh yeah he calls you? Somebody has to. I assure you it bothers him and when he come accross your twin sister who will be expressing more interest level in him....he will have his doubts.

 

Insist on opening car doors? Whoa??? I hope you unlock his doors when you sit there (nevermind its central lock...you know what I mean).

 

Teasing is OK. Playing mind games, exploitation and emotional blackmail is not OK even if it is about attention, emotions and not about money.

Posted
When you play hard to get you are confusing him. He is not sure about your interest level. He will drop you because he thinks you are not interested and he knows it hardly ever helps to chase a girl more. You trigger negative thoughts - why she doesnt call me? Did I something wrong? Is she playing games? - and his interest level in WHAT HAPPEND - I SHOULD REAPIR IT goes up but his real interest level in YOU goes DOWN. He is interested in game not in you then.

 

Rules should be practised for one reason only. Guys faking high interest level to bed you and run. And weed out guys who become aggressive or clingy ...who panic in first signs of problems. End of Story. Play these power games too much and you annoy him...the more quality man he is the sooner he pulls out.

 

I've been struggling to verbalise what it is about "the rules" that I disagree with, and this sums it up 100%. I can't stress how spot on that above description is!

 

 

The girls you want to marry the same day you meet them so to speak are the ones who are naturally confident&fun and you can feel it. They also have no need for playing games and emotional manipulation. If they are interested they invite you themselves, they call you.

 

This is absolutely bang on aswell!!

Posted

Thanks Pretty Fly.

 

One more thing that crossed my mind....

 

All this Rules things about disguising your Interest level might have one important reason besides those of adding a value to yourself, protecting yourself etc.

 

And it is: 'Dont appear too interested.... he wont be afraid of commitment with you then. And when he realizes he is commited....it is too late for him.':rolleyes: So it is not ment to weed out guys with low interest. People usually care only about their own interest level, which is natural, common but DANGEROUS.

 

It wont get him closer to you because he starts to think you have to be such a catch when you dont have time for him. He has his own eyes.;) But he might start to think that he wont break your heart when he hit you and run......he is somewhat more comfortable with you. But I dont think this was purpose of the rules, because practising this - binding with low interest level guy is sure way for broken heart. Rules backfires here.

Posted

I completely agree with DM on this issue (especially pertaining to the poster who said her bf will eventually call if she does not). I've heard advice given to women along the lines of "If he's interested in you, he'll call." Well, the same advice can be given to men about women. If you love/care for this person, you should be able to spontaneously show your effection. With these rules, its almost like narrowing it down to a science (you should call your SO at least every other day, or text every day, or some other garbage like that). Being tit for tat about calling is stupid. However, this does not mean you should be a doormat for someone who never initiates contact just because you care for them. But also, remember to not play the same games as the other person (holding out to see which one will call first). Talk to them about it.

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Posted

see i think you men all THINK you want women to call and act all intested blahblahblah--but the truth is its intrinsic for men to love the chase---be too available and they lose itnerest. you may not realize it, not to get too philosophical, but deep down what man isnt a little turned off when a woman calls? when she gives you her number? its like, if a man wants you he will call!! make no mistake...and yes, i most defintieyl do open the car door for him! (i've seen a bronx tale...) its not realy playing mind games, its just going back to caveman days of men chase, women nest. plus his hated ex-wfie was all wifey cooking and baking etc. he likes my indepenedent nature.....

  • Author
Posted

really, if its anew realtrionshp and you always get calls from th ewoman and shes always avilable, that doesnt turn you off??

Posted

I can only speak of my own experience, but I find that guys do like it when we show interest AND let them chase at the same time.

 

Of course, things must be reciprocal. I think that's the aim of the books like "The Rules." Power should be balanced.

 

I think people make the mistake of thinking of books like this are talking about relationships, they are not. They are talking about the beginning of a courtship. At that time, it is important for both parties to establish interest levels, but it is also important to lay down some important boundaries.

 

A woman shouldn't call and call a guy in the beginning. It's okay to call, just make sure it is fairly reciprocal. And she shouldn't be so available that he thinks it's okay to call last minute ALL OF THE TIME. It's a matter of respect. She has a life and other things to do.

 

After a couple is somewhat established, and a guy shows he can make plans in advance, then either party can call up last minute, but the respect has already been established. So the couple grows from that point. It makes it more special to be spontaneous.

 

I don't follow any specific rules, but I do make sure things are progressing in a reciprocal fashion. I give if he's giving.

 

I love calling a guy up and telling him I have tickets for a concert for us, but I'll only do that after he's made a few dates...and I won't go making him dinner until months down the road. It's all about not trying too hard. And doing things because you WANT to, not because you are trying to ingratiate yourself to someone.

Posted
I can only speak of my own experience, but I find that guys do like it when we show interest AND let them chase at the same time..

yes i agree NICKI

Posted

Sorry for the double post. I just remembered that "The Rules" book seems downright mean in some parts. No one should lose their sense of courtesy.

 

Again, the intention is to remind women not to try too hard and to let things unfold with give and take, probably the same intention of the books like "No More Mr. Nice Guy."

Posted
yes i agree NICKI

 

Me too!

But apparently I'm not allowed to write a message that short, so this is filler.

  • Author
Posted

nicki, your def. right--it really is all about respect! and the book is mostly for the first few months of dating. its just basically a way to get a man interested in you using the old tried and true methods of our grandmas era, and then progressing further to just make sure your never taken for granted. like, if you follow the rules early and establish a pattern, your man will always keep comin' back for more! i know women who right away start cooking fo rmen, doing their laundry, then wonder why the men lose interest. DUH!! although after almost 3 years of dating with my BF, i'm at the point now where i just say "hey, theres no ring on my finger!" when he asks for somehting domestic..that gets my point across....tho i always try to laugh after. i think its real important to keep things light and breezy and always try to have a sense of humor. no one wants to be with a gloom and doomer....

Posted
see i think you men all THINK you want women to call and act all intested blahblahblah--but the truth is its intrinsic for men to love the chase---be too available and they lose itnerest. you may not realize it, not to get too philosophical, but deep down what man isnt a little turned off when a woman calls? when she gives you her number? its like, if a man wants you he will call!! make no mistake...and yes, i most defintieyl do open the car door for him! (i've seen a bronx tale...) its not realy playing mind games, its just going back to caveman days of men chase, women nest. plus his hated ex-wfie was all wifey cooking and baking etc. he likes my indepenedent nature.....

 

Have you read what I wrote?

 

NO. We are not turned off if woman calls us. Are you? When we find women attractive we are happy about her 90% interest level. If it doesnt mean she is nuts commiting suicide thats it.

Games frustrate us. Is it sweeter to win after those games? No. It is relief only. Sweet is when girl love us and shows it...the earlier the better....because it is clear we are so good we dont have prove ourselves for 2 months.

 

Dont be mistaken. Only reason HTG works is because guys then think you are not so interested so they can easily dump you afterwards. Thats why ghe likes your independant nature;)

 

Men love to hunt...animals. Then we come home and want peace and quite.

Posted

The Rules should TOTALLY be applied throughout the relationship, even to marriage. It's NOT just about the initial part of dating. IN fact, if you stop doing them all of the sudden, suddenly start calling all the time, always making plans with him no matter what, etc. etc., then you will lose all the progress you've gained. Continue having self-confidence and not letting this guy be the center of your world. There is a Rules for Marriage book, too! Basically it is about not being a doormat for your husband and having self-respect and continuing to leave some 'mystery' to discover about you and be the 'prize.'

Posted
When you play hard to get you are confusing him. He is not sure about your interest level. He will drop you because he thinks you are not interested and he knows it hardly ever helps to chase a girl more. You trigger negative thoughts - why she doesnt call me? Did I something wrong? Is she playing games?

 

If he is thinking this he is incessantly weak. He needs to work on his own self esteem.

 

He should be thinking "of course she wants me" and playing his hand accordingly.

 

This is the guy WE want - strong and confident. A man. Not a little boy or a male person who is somewhat unsure of himself.

 

He is the tiny little minnow. That's why we throw him back and catch a Big Fish.

 

 

The girls you want to marry the same day you meet them so to speak are the ones who are naturally confident&fun and you can feel it. They also have no need for playing games and emotional manipulation. If they are interested they invite you themselves, they call you. And if I find them attractive Im happy about it. If I dont find a girl attractive she can prolong the game by playing games but she wont make me like her more...quite the contrary.

 

Ahhh yes. Here we go.

 

You have no problem explaining the girls you would like to be with.

 

I'm glad you have such a grasp of your conceptualized woman.

 

HOWEVER.

 

In reality, a girl who will behave as you'd like is just shy of being truly self confident. There isn't much self esteem or self respect that she is lacking.

 

She has the confidence in carrying herself but probably not in the power of her attraction - i.e. where she would be on an interest level meter if there was one.

 

But she meets you. You are easy to talk to because you are almost a Big Fish yourself - but not quite.

 

Your interest is something she responds to - and it boosts her self esteem.

 

If you are conscious of working on yourself and raising your self esteem it could be fine.

 

But sadly that is not usually what happens.

 

You are happy to have your "ideal". A woman who makes it easy for you because you lack the full self confidence you'd need to date some of the women you do find attractive.

 

So you give her more attention and her ego grows even more.

 

Eventually she outgrows you. She sees the attention changing into neediness as you see her blooming before your eyes.

 

And then she is gone to find a Big Fish.

 

Sometimes it works in reverse where it is the man's ego that grows stronger and he views himself as more capable. And the girl grows more and more clingy and dependent.

 

But not usually. Most of the time the guy gets the short end of this deal.

 

 

So Daniel -

 

You have no qualms about posting what you want in a female - what you see as attractive but you have yet to read and take in what women say we find attractive.

 

Yet you refuse to take the same tool and reverse it. Apply that constructive criticism to yourself. Embrace shortcomings to change them. When you ignore them they linger and will sabatoge you.

Posted
Dont be mistaken. Only reason HTG works is because guys then think you are not so interested so they can easily dump you afterwards. Thats why he likes your independant nature;)

 

Daniel - I've dated many MEN. They weren't interested so they could easily dump me, they were interested because they were happy when they were with me yet I wasn't clingy and didn't NEED them.

 

In the end my independent nature is what drove me to dump them.

 

Yet each one has come back. Letting me know I am unforgettable. Why because I was always a strong woman with healthy self esteem who didn't chase after men, giving them presents and calling all the time -- I was never like all the other girls who would hover around them.

 

Now those are the girls that were treated like CRAP!

Posted
I can only speak of my own experience, but I find that guys do like it when we show interest AND let them chase at the same time.

 

Exactly nicki. Exactly.

 

Eye contact, how we speak and what we say are all thing a man picks up on.

 

Body gestures and some contact are total signs.

 

Some need more encouragement than others but all are the proud one's after they ask for the number or a date and get it.

 

They chased and they conquered - one little battle to the next...

Posted
If he is thinking this he is incessantly weak. He needs to work on his own self esteem.

 

He should be thinking "of course she wants me" and playing his hand accordingly.

 

This is the guy WE want - strong and confident. A man. Not a little boy or a male person who is somewhat unsure of himself.

 

He is the tiny little minnow. That's why we throw him back and catch a Big Fish.

 

Yes I agree. Thats how reality works.

Problem is that what if he is sure about himself but isnt sure about her? By playing hard to get she disqualifies herself. He wants to get to know her better and she complicates it for herself.

 

And what you wrote is 'what women want' type of thing....and it knows (where knowing means to the point of believing and understanding) is probably 1% of population. My guess. So much smoke screens.

 

And.....keep measuring the fish too much and too often and the fish will get annoyed.

 

Ahhh yes. Here we go.

 

You have no problem explaining the girls you would like to be with.

 

I'm glad you have such a grasp of your conceptualized woman.

 

HOWEVER.

 

In reality, a girl who will behave as you'd like is just shy of being truly self confident. There isn't much self esteem or self respect that she is lacking.

 

She has the confidence in carrying herself but probably not in the power of her attraction - i.e. where she would be on an interest level meter if there was one.

 

But she meets you. You are easy to talk to because you are almost a Big Fish yourself - but not quite.

 

Your interest is something she responds to - and it boosts her self esteem.

 

If you are conscious of working on yourself and raising your self esteem it could be fine.

 

But sadly that is not usually what happens.

 

You are happy to have your "ideal". A woman who makes it easy for you because you lack the full self confidence you'd need to date some of the women you do find attractive.

 

So you give her more attention and her ego grows even more.

 

Eventually she outgrows you. She sees the attention changing into neediness as you see her blooming before your eyes.

 

And then she is gone to find a Big Fish.

 

Sometimes it works in reverse where it is the man's ego that grows stronger and he views himself as more capable. And the girl grows more and more clingy and dependent.

 

But not usually. Most of the time the guy gets the short end of this deal.

 

Yeah I know what you mean.

However writing my part about ideal women wasnt motivated by need of justifying my behaviour (that is of seducing chics Im not really attracted to). I dont do that.

 

My ideal woman simply wears less armour and is more straight forward than that chic produced by The Rules.

Why is she straight forward? Probably she is not so afraid about her image. She knows that she is quality therefore she has no need for fancy moves.

 

Self improvement? Sure all the time. But I assure you, you cant improve your self-esteem, confidence etc. by only thinking how good you are. In real world false confidence can get you killed. Similar with girls thinking how great they are....they let a few small fish slip and end up alone. I can see it all over. Thats another danger of Rules then. No modesty. There is fine line between healthy confidence when you dont take yourself too seriously and arrogance or boldness.

 

I admit there are always things to improve in the dating-improvement.....e.g. not shooting yourself in the leg time to time :D :D :D

 

So Daniel -

 

You have no qualms about posting what you want in a female - what you see as attractive but you have yet to read and take in what women say we find attractive.

 

Yet you refuse to take the same tool and reverse it. Apply that constructive criticism to yourself. Embrace shortcomings to change them. When you ignore them they linger and will sabatoge you.

 

 

I have pretty good idea what I want in woman. I just dont verbalise it to myself(Im not list-freak) so my description was just a hint.

 

If I would follow what women say, I would certainly be in nut house :D

 

What you say is true and I believe every guys gut tells him the same but there is so much smokescreen that I can tell you lot of quality guys just give up after few tries. And the Rules are not helping.

 

Yep to being honest with oneself helps a lot.

Posted
Daniel - I've dated many MEN. They weren't interested so they could easily dump me, they were interested because they were happy when they were with me yet I wasn't clingy and didn't NEED them.

 

In the end my independent nature is what drove me to dump them.

 

Yet each one has come back. Letting me know I am unforgettable. Why because I was always a strong woman with healthy self esteem who didn't chase after men, giving them presents and calling all the time -- I was never like all the other girls who would hover around them.

 

Now those are the girls that were treated like CRAP!

 

Yep these are good qualities but they are not crucial for men. We are strong ourselves we dont primarily looking for strong ones. And being independent? Like when I come to the cave after hunt you are not there?

 

Qualities we like.... she is pretty, has integrity ( I can trust her), attitude (she is giver, she is positive, doesnt seek drama), loyalty (sticks with me through bad times). Lot of these things are based on her self esteem. Thats right. So girl wont do any bad working on it.

  • Author
Posted

see, i know most of the rules book is for the inital part of the relationship, to sort of establish a pattern. but what you say is true, you must keep following it! maybe not as strictly in the beginning...... i mean after nearly 3 years of dating i DO call my boyfriend and we do make plans within 3 days of the weekend,e tc. but i do find myself soemtiems being a little bit of a doormat, like hes so busy that when he says he has a few free hours one night i want to see him so badly i say sure come over,lets get together...when really i shoudl be strong and either say i have other plans or i;m tired or soemthing. its just the more i love him the more i want to compromise. that being said, i still insist on the door opening and try to be as easy going as possible. some of th emore basic "rules"

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