Pink Amulet Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 I heard someone recently utter that woman can either have equal rights, or chivalry, the expectation for both is questionable Men- Do you pay for dinner? First date? Second date? Sixth date?! How far do we want to take this liberated, independant women thing ladies? Would you be offended if you had to pay your own way? (obviously there is an exclusion if in the midst of a relationship- I am talking in terms of dating specifically). I went on a first date last night with a man who I asked out (I am not sure if this bares any relevance to the situation) and was completely prepared to pay my own way- he wouldn't hear of it . I must say I was pleased. This is my first real taste of the dating scene. Is this what is to be expected?
magichands Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 Is this what is to be expected? Of course! And did he get what he expected in return? Just kidding, of course. Although my sister is one that won't hear of it. She won't take nothing from nobody.
Author Pink Amulet Posted July 30, 2006 Author Posted July 30, 2006 He got a peck at the door if you must know! Why exactly is your sisters reasoning magichands?
magichands Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 He got a peck at the door if you must know! What's a peck? Do you mean pecker? Why exactly is your sisters reasoning magichands? She's a stubborn bitch. Even more stubborn than me - and that's saying something. And, yes, I know that doesn't really answer your question.
Author Pink Amulet Posted July 30, 2006 Author Posted July 30, 2006 Okay so it is stubborness not radical feminism? Haha. A peck! It must be Australian then... it is a quick kiss on the lips.
magichands Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 A peck! It must be Australian then... it is a quick kiss on the lips. I think peck is pretty much universal. Sorry, I was being vulgar. And it suits me. Don't they call it going Dutch? I think it's a sign of the changing times. My sister's point of view probably stems from not wanting to feel like she "owes" anybody anything. (You know, like a "return" leg where she pays.)
stoopid_guy Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 Yes, I'd prefer to pay for dinner. I also open doors (including going out of my way for car doors,) and have a general "ladies first" attitude unless going into an unknown or potentially dangerous place. I could never raise my hand to a woman, nor permit anyone else to. For me, it's ingrained as a survival instinct. I grew up with three older sisters. If I didn't treat them like ladies, they'd beat me up.
Author Pink Amulet Posted July 30, 2006 Author Posted July 30, 2006 Haha- good reasoning! Do any men on here expect the woman to pay her share on a first date?
magichands Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 I could never raise my hand to a woman, nor permit anyone else to. I couldn't live by this one - I tried so hard to be teacher's pet.
UnknowingOW Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 Men generally will pay for dates unless you offer. Then they'll either tell thanks, but they'll pay or they'll say...ok and divy up the bill. On the other hand, if I am out on a date with someone I know I will not go out with a second time...then I pay.
Curmudgeon Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 Chivalry is alive and well, for some of us. But of course, I'm an old fart. In answer to your question, every dinner! I also open all the doors. One time I opened a door for a 30s-something woman who glared at me and growled, "You don't have to open the door for me just because I'm a woman. I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself." I responded, "Madam, I didn't open the door in deference to your gender. I opened it in deference to your age." And I walked on. I think I was about 50 at the time.
Author Pink Amulet Posted July 30, 2006 Author Posted July 30, 2006 Haha what a grumpy bitch! On a side note, when I was in San Francisco a man opened the door to a restaurant for me I thanked him and as I swaned in I took a quick glance back and realised he was holding a paper cup. Haha. Here I was thinking he was a gentleman!
magichands Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 Come to think of it, if a girl insists on contributing, then maybe the guy sees this as a challenge to his masculinity. There are other ways to impress a girl.
Tony T Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 Of course! And did he get what he expected in return? Just kidding, of course. Although my sister is one that won't hear of it. She won't take nothing from nobody. I like your sister already!
Outcast Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 How far do we want to take this liberated, independant women thing ladies? I don't look at it as being a 'liberated, independant woman thing' but more as a fairness thing. Why should the guy always pay? Why should they always be expected to give and not receive? Unless the guy lets the gal do other things (no, not THAT ) in return, the female ends up on the taking end all the time. Then men come to LS and say that women are all money-grubbers! Giving is a pleasure that women enjoy, too, after all!
stoopid_guy Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 I don't look at it as being a 'liberated, independant woman thing' but more as a fairness thing. Why should the guy always pay? Why should they always be expected to give and not receive? Unless the guy lets the gal do other things (no, not THAT ) in return, the female ends up on the taking end all the time. Then men come to LS and say that women are all money-grubbers! Giving is a pleasure that women enjoy, too, after all! I believe in equality and admire independent women, but think there's also a place for tradition and instinct. The instinct for men to provide and protect is perfectly natural. And believe me, the attention of a lovely lady is priceless. (Not talking about "THAT" either.) (The perspective of an old fart from the South-Eastern US.)
Outcast Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 And believe me, the attention of a lovely lady is priceless. One would have to feel that one's own company was so magnificent that no other bestowal would be necessary! Who thinks that way?
stoopid_guy Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 One would have to feel that one's own company was so magnificent that no other bestowal would be necessary! Who thinks that way? Well, of course. But a gentleman is to modest to admit that. Interestingly, that's a major difference I see between 20-somethings and 40-somethings. The younger guys are much more likely to be "macho" and act like they're doing the lady a favor to be seen with her. The older guys are more likely to be gentlemen.
Outcast Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 The older guys are more likely to be gentlemen. Meaning the lady should feel she's doing the man a favour by gracing his presence?
stoopid_guy Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 Meaning the lady should feel she's doing the man a favour by gracing his presence? No, meaning he's more likely to appreciate her company (or at least act like it.) I do think it's a major difference though, not sure what these kids are thinkin'!
kulyok Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 I used to like guys opening doors for me or giving me a hand when out of the bus - and paying for me on a date, too. Then I thought: okay, that's nice. Good. Traditional. But traditional also includes handling all household duties to the woman after a wedding. And raising kids. And all sets of double morals. Thanks, but no thanks. I am going Dutch all the time now. And I no longer expect these little signs of chivalry - I don't need them. I am all right with them, though. Equality is equality. I will not be spending time in the kitchen after my wedding, so I don't expect my man to be a fat purse and a dashing knight while dating. Again: thanks, but no thanks.
Outcast Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 Equality is equality. I will not be spending time in the kitchen after my wedding, so I don't expect my man to be a fat purse and a dashing knight while dating. Again: thanks, but no thanks. I have a Russian friend who often gives me the impression that such ideas aren't all that popular there to this day. Is that your experience?
johan Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 Working out who is going to pay can be awkward and distracting. Like a power play, or like how you split up the bill indicates how you feel. I pay by default, and I'm discreet about it. If she offers, I say it isn't necessary. If she persists, then I give her the bill, and that's that. We can split it, too, if she wants. I don't care that much. Opening doors is awkward, because you have to plan to get to the door on the right side, grab the handle and pull the door open without backing over her, and also make room so she can pass by. It works on about 1/4 of the doors I come across. Double doors are a lost cause for me. She's going to have to open the second one herself. My remote keys on my car don't work. And there is no keyhole on the passenger's door. So opening the car door for the girl won't work on my car. I have to go to mine first. Chivalry isn't dead. I still feel it's my job to do the hard work and get my hands dirty when possible. Not that the girl shouldn't ever, but if it's one or the other of us, then I'll volunteer as a matter of principle. But I also don't like princesses very much. I think there is a lot to be said for treating a woman with respect and trying to be a gentleman as much as possible. Just because I wouldn't be with her if I didn't value her. And it's a poor reflection on me to give the impression that I would spend time with a woman I don't really like or respect.
Guest Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 I definitely don't think chivalry is dead. The guy I'm dating now opens doors for me (including the car door), tells me how nice I look each of the days I've seen him, and always thanks me for spending time with him. He's even made me dinner a couple of times. He paid for our first date, but as someone mentioned earlier, girls like to give too, so I've treated him out since then. I like the idea of taking turns. I mean, all this seems a little silly to me on one hand. I'm a very independent, very ambitious woman, and I'm used to doing things on my own. I'm also a little unsure how to respond appropriately to such gestures without feeling sappy or trite, which is not the kind of person I am. I'm very practical by nature. On the other hand, it's nice to know that you're appreciated. I'll probably ask him to tone it down a bit before I say anything too offensive (the last time he told me I looked good that day, I asked him if I ever had an "off" day), but I think a little chivalry can only make a guy look good. Then again, I'm very much attracted to the "nice" guys.
basscatcher Posted July 30, 2006 Posted July 30, 2006 This is a interesting thread. I have many different views on this matter. I like it if a man opens doors for me,offers to pay for meals when we are out on a date, helps me carry my grocery's, even helps out a little with light duty housework. I believe women tend to give back in return, in the long run, the decency, generosity, and kindness to the man should they last together. The man shows his manners by being chivalrous. (like selling himself) If she likes what she experiences she will return his kindness by cooking, cleaning, and taking care of him. (paying for him.) -- sorry this sounds kind of ill with buying and selling but I believe its a good comparison. There are other areas I can see where there is a trade off..(Traditionally speaking of course--there is always exceptions)---> *Women carry children for 9 months in her body. The man doesn't. *Men tend to typically make more money then women in the job industry. (traditionally) *Women tend to be the more hands on care-taker of family then the man. I believe chivalry in a man is a trade off of taking care of us for what we do for them. It is out of respect and thanks. When a man (even a stranger) opens the door for me I always look him in the eyes, smile, nod my head and say thank you. I feel respected as a woman when this gesture is given me. His gesture makes me feel good for being a woman. When I do nice things for a man like cook for him, wash his clothes, tend to his care, etc. and he says thank you to me I know he appreciates me for caring about him. I believe you get what you give. This is my beliefs. In this day and age, I find it hard to know what men expect. Especially since I moved to a large metro area. I have more traditional beliefs for my age and I find that my peer group of women is largely made up of independent, feminist type women who do everything themselves without the aid of a man. So when I date a man the first few times I will go with the thought of it being dutch. I am prepared to pay my own way. If when we are out and the bill comes he takes it I ask how much my part is and usually the majority of my experiences the man won't let me pay my way. I have went out with men who DON'T open doors for me too. I know its the norm now days so I don't think to much into it. I don't take my traditional beliefs too far in the real world because I know its not as common as it once was. I adjust accordingly. Even though I prefer a gentleman who keeps chivalry alive and displays it with me and others. It puts a smile on my face. I live my life as an independent and I carry my own groceries, open my own doors typically, and expect to do things myself. I was raised by a single mother and learned to not expect a man to take care of me even though I like it when they do. My mother was the same way. We are traditional women at heart but in this day and age we have to live as independent self sufficient women. I'd like to have a man who is traditional but don't expect it.
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