My dilemma

[BKRPM]

Looking for some kind folks to give me some advice. I am the OM to a MW. I have known her, and we have been friends for three years. We work together, but in separate offices 25 miles away. We both describe the other as "soulmates", and how we love being in our own 'little world' together, where we can be free from all of the frustrating things in life. We also both have stated that we have never gotten sick of each other at any time, even after spending hours and hours together at one sitting.

We have similar backgrounds, upbringing, and are six months in age apart.

 

We starting kissing about a year ago, and she wanted me to sleep with her about six months ago. I firmly said no, because I felt that it was wrong, but gave in to her last month. We both have professed to each other our love. Her marriage was 'dreadful' according to her when I first knew her, and all along she says how verbally abusive that her husband is. She says that she would like more than anything to be with me forever, and that she loves her husband but is not in love with him. The husband is mean to her 70% of the time, but, probably due to the fact that I have taught her to communicate better, he is ok to her 20% of the time and a true husband 10% of the time. She tells me that she sleeps on the couch six days out of every seven because they don't get along. She says that she wants to leave him, but then vacillates from time to time, saying "He was sweet to me today." Of course, when I hear that every month or so, it makes my stomach sick.

 

The long and short of it is that I have met someone that I could be with forever. We have not had a fight in those three years, and communicate better than anyone I know. I told her that I would marry her if she were single, and that we both agreed that her decision to stay or leave the husband has NOTHING to do with me, which is the way it needs to be.

 

My dilemma is this: I get so much validation from what we have, but at the same time, the highest highs are countered by very low lows. How can I find out if she'll ever leave him?

[Sami_D]

A dreadful, verbally abusive husband that she loves.

 

Cue you... to be her 'knight'... only not to rescue her... just be there... yeah... right there... on the side... where she can get to you when he's being a little 'much' (whatever).

 

OK.. her husband is mean to her 70% of the time... so... why doesn't she divorce him? What does she stand to lose..?

[BKRPM]

Sami D, why she tolerates the treatment from her husband, I do not know. I figure she either has such terribly low self-esteem that she doesn't have enough confidence to leave, OR, it's not that bad at home.

 

As for what does she have to lose, she does have two grade-school aged children.

 

I know that I should totally close the book on her and go NC, but the fact that we get along so specially, and have for over three years, keeps me in the game.

[Jessie61]

 

My dilemma is this: I get so much validation from what we have, but at the same time, the highest highs are countered by very low lows. How can I find out if she'll ever leave him?

 

You are probably not going to like my answer, but I think that the only way you will find out of she will leave her H is to break off all contact with her. How else will she knows what she is missing? In fact, the wonderful moments she has with you probably KEEPS her in the M because it gives her the energy to struggle on..?

 

I am an OW myself and the only reason why any progress has been made is because I have broken off contact time and time again. My MM has pursued me each time and slowly things are happening. I wish that I could say that my efforts will get "us" over the finishing line, but I can't. But I do know that if I had said and done nothing there would have been little progress made. Why would there if there is no incentive for MM/MW to do anything, he or she has you anyway.

 

Yes, breaking off contact means risk losing the MM/MW too, but isn't it better to find out either way before you have wasted 5 years instead of 3 years or 10 years instead of 8....

 

It is not easy. Far from it, but it CAN be done....

[zarathustra]

You are probably not going to like my answer, but I think that the only way you will find out of she will leave her H is to break off all contact with her. How else will she knows what she is missing? In fact, the wonderful moments she has with you probably KEEPS her in the M because it gives her the energy to struggle on..?

 

I am an OW myself and the only reason why any progress has been made is because I have broken off contact time and time again. My MM has pursued me each time and slowly things are happening. I wish that I could say that my efforts will get "us" over the finishing line, but I can't. But I do know that if I had said and done nothing there would have been little progress made. Why would there if there is no incentive for MM/MW to do anything, he or she has you anyway.

 

Yes, breaking off contact means risk losing the MM/MW too, but isn't it better to find out either way before you have wasted 5 years instead of 3 years or 10 years instead of 8....

 

It is not easy. Far from it, but it CAN be done....

I agree with Jessie. The only way you will find out if she'll leave him is if you leave her on the grounds that you don't want to be the OM anymore. If she loves you and want to spend her life with you, she will be back for you when she is free of the marriage. She needs to be free of it for herself and take the risk that you won't be waiting around for her.

 

I felt like with my xMM, I, too, have never met someone that I can talk so easily with. I never thought that I could love someone so much. I never thought that someone who can say tell me about all the emotional abuse his wife directs at him would want to go stay in a marriage with her could ever go back, but yet, he did. If he's that bad, she'd have no problem giving him his walking papers. I was married when I met my xMM and things in my marriage was truly bad and I left the marriage for me. Just so happened xMM followed me and moved in with me. Didn't work out. C'est la vie.

[Sami_D]

Sami D, why she tolerates the treatment from her husband, I do not know. I figure she either has such terribly low self-esteem that she doesn't have enough confidence to leave, OR, it's not that bad at home.

 

As for what does she have to lose, she does have two grade-school aged children.

 

I just cannot understand why women can use the 'excuse' "I'm staying for the children"... women generally get to 'keep' the house and children after D... so... what is she going to lose? Will her abusive H want or get custody?

 

Besides, if the things she tells you about her abusive H are true, those children would be better of not witnessing such things. Showing children that it's OK to stay in an abusive marriage is not a good lesson. jmho.

 

At the end of this, what you're saying is either she has no confidence, or low self-esteem, or she's more or less lying to you..? That's not good. You know what you would gain from going NC? You get to forget worrying about whether and which of these things is true about her. Won't that be fantastic!?

[BKRPM]

Jessie, thanks for some great things to ponder. Two things that you said were very impactful: #1. Why should she leave H if she has me any way? She has the best of both worlds right now; and #2. That does make sense that the wonderful things that we do give her the strength to struggle on. She has mentioned on many occasions, things like "H was in a very foul mood, but, because I was with you, I could handle it a lot better, and didn't escalate it into a fight...."

 

Sami, thanks to you, too. I guess she's worried that if the H finds out about the A, that he will have more leverage.

 

Let me throw another piece of info in. H has a problem with pot, which totally sickens MW. Between the children seeing that and the constant fighting, I do not know why MW would want to stay in this situation.

[Jessie61]

Jessie, thanks for some great things to ponder. Two things that you said were very impactful: #1. Why should she leave H if she has me any way? She has the best of both worlds right now; and #2. That does make sense that the wonderful things that we do give her the strength to struggle on. She has mentioned on many occasions, things like "H was in a very foul mood, but, because I was with you, I could handle it a lot better, and didn't escalate it into a fight...."

 

Sami, thanks to you, too. I guess she's worried that if the H finds out about the A, that he will have more leverage.

 

Let me throw another piece of info in. H has a problem with pot, which totally sickens MW. Between the children seeing that and the constant fighting, I do not know why MW would want to stay in this situation.

 

 

BKRPM,

 

Only glad if I can help...!

 

Stay in touch, OK?

[BKRPM]

No problem, Jessie. Thanks very much. All I can say that it has been the best of times and worst of times at the same time. We never have had a fight in our 3+ years, and because we worked (closer before, farther away now) together I have probably averaged seeing and/or talking to her 5 days a week during that period, I think that is a very good thing. She sent me an e-mail that just floored me yesterday -- said "As a result of some great time that we spent together Thursday (of which she said that it was one of the most memorable and fun times we have ever had), H benefited on Friday from my (MWs) good feelings resulting from our physical contact/discussions on Thursday..." We discussed in depth yesterday, because that comment p###d me off to no end. She apologized ten times over for being insensitive, and explained it as "only YOU could put me in SUCH a good mood that I could even handle and appreciate my husband..." She was saying it as a joke, but it really bothered me.

 

I have never tried NC, and am thinking of it to test how much she truly does care. She constantly says that she loves me, and says that our little world is so great, that she doesn't deserve to have something so good happen to her in her life. She acknowledges that she has some self-esteem issues. She even tells me about bad dreams that she has....a lot of them consist of me saying that her and I are through....

[Sami_D]

I guess she's worried that if the H finds out about the A, that he will have more leverage.

 

I'm not sure that makes much sense to me either.

 

Wouldn't she be better getting a divorce, rather than having an affair which, as you say, may be discovered?

 

But in any case (and I'm not sure about this, but... ) a mother wouldn't lose custody of her children just because she had an EMA, would she?

[Sami_D]

...that comment p###d me off to no end. She apologized ten times over for being insensitive, and explained it as "only YOU could put me in SUCH a good mood that I could even handle and appreciate my husband..." She was saying it as a joke, but it really bothered me.

 

OMG

 

No wonder that remark bothered you! WHY would she think it wouldn't???

 

Listen, I have a friend who has been in your exact situation now for more than seven years. He flies to see his MW once a month or so, spends a few hours a day with her, and flies home. He's depressed. He's sad. He talks to me for hours about how low he feels, and how helpless and unable to walk away...

 

It breaks my heart to hear it. And I swear I'm not going to end up like that. Are you..?

[BKRPM]

I am really enjoying the feedback. I can't thank you all enough. What keeps me in the A? It has to be what I feel is a genuine love received from the MW. We had a sales meeting out of town Weds PM. We didn't have to get back to town until later Thu, so I went to her room, and we (we promised each other we weren't going to sleep together on the trip, and we didn't) cuddled in bed and did everything BUT go all the way for about four hours. Not that much talking, just a lot of smiling, laughing and "I love yous" . If she wasn't in to me, would she be so willing to do this? Am I fooling myself?

[Jessie61]

 

She sent me an e-mail that just floored me yesterday -- said "As a result of some great time that we spent together Thursday (of which she said that it was one of the most memorable and fun times we have ever had), H benefited on Friday from my (MWs) good feelings resulting from our physical contact/discussions on Thursday..." We discussed in depth yesterday, because that comment p###d me off to no end. She apologized ten times over for being insensitive, and explained it as "only YOU could put me in SUCH a good mood that I could even handle and appreciate my husband..." She was saying it as a joke, but it really bothered me.

 

I have never tried NC, and am thinking of it to test how much she truly does care.

 

 

BKRPM,

 

To be honest, I am a pretty level headed person but I would have hit the roof if I had received that e-mail... Or I would have cried for hours on end. Either way, the email was totally insensitive and it does suggest that your positive influence in your MW's life might in fact be keeping her at home, don't you think?

 

One thing though, if you do decide to go NC I think that you have to steel yourself to accept the risk that she MIGHT NOT come after you. You say that you will "test" it. You have to say it and mean it, I think, or at least LOOK as though you mean it...!!!

 

I have cut off all contact more than 30 times (I kid you not!) and each time my MM has broken it. But each time I have said "NC, please!" then I have meant it. It has meant heart ache every single time with the grieving process starting all over again. Each time I have told myself that "THIS TIME he won't come back, get on with it!" It is the hardest thing I have ever done. Be prepared....

 

Good luck with whatever you end up doing! And stay in touch!

[Sami_D]

I am really enjoying the feedback. I can't thank you all enough. What keeps me in the A? It has to be what I feel is a genuine love received from the MW. We had a sales meeting out of town Weds PM. We didn't have to get back to town until later Thu, so I went to her room, and we (we promised each other we weren't going to sleep together on the trip, and we didn't) cuddled in bed and did everything BUT go all the way for about four hours. Not that much talking, just a lot of smiling, laughing and "I love yous" . If she wasn't in to me, would she be so willing to do this? Am I fooling myself?

 

Why would she 'be willing' to have you in bed with her, keeping her company, adoring her, wanting her, desiring her..? Being there on tap for cuddles and she doesn't even have to have sex with you if she doesn't want to?

 

You make it sound like she's doing you a favour

 

She's 'willing' to do it because you make her feel GREAT in an otherwise miserable existence.

[BKRPM]

Such good feedback in just the last two days! As for your e-mail, Jessie, she told me almost two weeks ago that she needed less of a distraction from me so that she could evaluate her marriage independently (tough for me, but it was fair -- I thought that this might accelerate things, if she makes certain decisions). We did the friendship thing for several days, then she breaks this, and goes for physical contact again.

 

Sami -- I agree with your last post. I know darn well that when we're together, I am the bright spot in her life. I'm so conflicted -- I want to go NC so badly, so that I can figure out what this means, and start healing if she chooses not to make the right decisions; but she makes me so happy when we're together -- aaagggh, it's tough!

[Sami_D]

Well... you're bound to feel conflicted about it... it's the nature of these things. I tried NC last year... it lasted 2 weeks before I broke it. So I am no one to preach.

 

I think that, being as she's said that she feels the need to have a break (even if she went back on that later) that at least here you both have a chance for something approaching sanity. You both have something to gain from cooling off a little at least. No meetings, perhaps? That's what I'm doing currently. And I'm thinking of cutting out phonecalls too if he doesn't tell her he wants a separation in the next week or so.

 

Right back at the beginning of our R (when it was still online) MM broke it off so he could work on his M. I thought that was a good idea at the time, much as it hurt me. I think that, at the very least, you should give her that time to work on her M.

 

You could use that time to try to get her out of your head...

 

I'm saying all this, but I was completely useless of doing any of it myself.

 

((( hugs )))

[Jessie61]

[quote=Sami_D

 

I'm saying all this, but I was completely useless of doing any of it myself.

 

 

And all the 30 times when I called it off and HE broke NC, I was useless at NOT responding to texts etc and maintaining NC.... Oh dear!!!!

[BKRPM]

After we spoke about the inappropriate comment yesterday (i.e. our good time spent together last week 'helped' MW and H have a good Friday together), I did receive a sincere e-mail apology. We usually talk or e-mail daily. Should I lay off from any of this until she calls/e-mails me? I am pretty upset about that comment, or is it making everything worse?

 

Good news -- a friend from work invited me to a fancy wine-tasting, work-related shindig (tux and all) next Saturday....she's also single, and says that she knows that we "will have a good time!"

[Jessie61]

I think you need to take some time to THINK about what you are going to do. You are considering NC. Yes, do but if you decide that is what you need to do, then you need to mean it. You WILL have moments when you wondered if you did the right thing and your finger might hover over the "send" button; if you had thought about and if you are determined about it, then it will be easier to stop yourself from clicking on "send"...

 

On the other hand, if you say NC and then break it a couple of days later, and then get into a cycle of doing it, then it will have no effect at all. She will never take you seriously again.

 

NC will bring things to a head; either your R moves forward OR it stops. You have to be prepared for the latter.....

 

Yes, and while you're thinking about what to do, GO to the wine tasting evening!!! You might in fact need ONE night of feeling like a normal person? As long as you don't make and false promises etc to the Single Girl, the what is the harm??? God forbid, you might even find that you are enjoying yourself!!!!

[Sami_D]

BKRPM

 

Well, she was bound to apologise, really... wasn't she? That's good, but the fact of it is that she didn't realise that her initial comments would hurt you.

 

But, leaving all that aside. Maybe it's too early for NC, I don't know. When MM wanted to work on his M, we didn't go NC, but we stopped all the lovey-dovey stuff, and (most) telephone calls... and maintained an emotional distance. I'd never heard of NC back then... and I don't think I could have done it had I heard of it. We basically 'took a break' from considering ourselves as 'an item' or future partners or anything. It hurt. But I knew it was something I had to go through if we had any chance for the future.

 

I think this could be an option for you.

 

The wine-tasting..? Sounds great!!! Just don't do what I'd do and have two glasses too many

[BKRPM]

Ladies - one question as I try to figure out whether I want to go NC now or not: If MW says she loves me, mentions that she misses me terribly when she doesn't see me (but says she rarely lets on), will spend 26 hours straight with me (and says she never tires of me), can I be pretty much assured of her sincerity? I would say 'yes' emphatically, but wonder, especially after the stupid comment about H. I can guess what happened: MW and H had a decent Friday (after I made her happy on Thu), H treated her 'ok' on Sat, yelled at her on Sun, and probably made her feel two feet tall this morning. The pattern repeats itself over and over.

[Touche]

Ladies - one question as I try to figure out whether I want to go NC now or not: If MW says she loves me, mentions that she misses me terribly when she doesn't see me (but says she rarely lets on), will spend 26 hours straight with me (and says she never tires of me), can I be pretty much assured of her sincerity? I would say 'yes' emphatically, but wonder, especially after the stupid comment about H. I can guess what happened: MW and H had a decent Friday (after I made her happy on Thu), H treated her 'ok' on Sat, yelled at her on Sun, and probably made her feel two feet tall this morning. The pattern repeats itself over and over.

 

Why can't you see you're being used. It's very doubtful that she'll leave especially since she has two young kids. Can you be assured of her sincerity? Of COURSE NOT! Duh! She's a liar and a cheater! She's lying to her husband and sleeping with you! Why would you think she's sincere with you? Go back and read all the stories on here. Yours is NO different...except for the fact that you have a cakeWOMAN on your hands.

 

You're making her current situation tolerable. She will not want to give you up so she'll say whatever it is you want to hear.

 

Wake up! And YES of course you should go out with others and go to the wine tasting...duh! I can't believe you REALLY think she sleeps on the couch. How naive. Cut your losses now and find someone you can have a REAL relationship with instead of this secret little "world" you're in now.

[eyeswideshut]

Hi,

I'm trying to go NC, I'm at my 2nd day, and these posts I've been reading are really helping me.

I think it's scary as hell, because it's as though I live for our friendship, and want him to get so used to me that he will never be able to let me go, but at the same time, I find that being there for him might be "unfair" to his own spiritual development. We are not made to rescue each other.

I was in a 8 year relationship and was having an affair on the side. The guy I was having the affair with was really hoping I would break it off with my fiance. Well, finally I did (because I felt too bad disrespecting a man I really loved but was no longer passionate about)

what ended up happening, is that I totally hated the "affair" guy when I was finally single.

I wanted to curse him for making me leave what seemed to be a wonderful relationship.

We are definitely not in the same situation, but from my point of view, as a woman, I felt good when i could run back into the arms of my lover as my protector, but deep down inside, I resented him for not being "man" enough to have dignity to see what I was doing to him. I could never respect him after that.

he tried NC for a week and I was so panicky i begged for him back. but in retrospect I was really begging for an emotion to lean on because I was troubled in my decision to leave my relationship.

If you think she would leave him anyway, (pretend you were never in her life) than maybe you have a chance if you let her go now.

But if you stick around, and keep "supporting her through this", she may just treat you as the rebound guy.

She needs to make a decision for herself to leave.

You need to have the strength to show her that you care for her so much that you are leaving her this space.

Even if she panicks for awhile.

Don't be too nice. I hated my rebound guy on the grounds that he was too nice to me and made me cheat. (insane, but I resented him for all my bad decisions)

Two years later, I still respect and love my ex-fiance, because he was strong and was able to get mad at me and be reasonable. He did everything with dignity.

The rebound guy was so passionate and to me, when I look back I see myself as having been performing low actions, and since he was participating with me during a time when I was being less than dignified, I ended up not being able to admire him.

Had he told me at the time: I think you should be honest with you fiance, and I will not participate until you make a decision, at least maybe today I would stil be his friend.

Instead he was like: live your life in the moment, you have to follow your heart and all that bulls***. I translated it as: you just want to sleep with me and influence my decision you low, weak, testosterone pig.

sorry. But that is how I felt.

Always look up to someone you really admire. Ask yourself would a good, strong, level-headed, respected man do this?

And be that man. Because that is what you are, and strive to be.

Of course it is wonderful to be in love and to have our own little fantasy world. But always remember who you are at the core. And respect yourself, that way no one can go back and say: how could you have been so ____ (weak, ill-willed, sinful, etc)

Good luck, you will get through this. you will not lose the love of your life by being the great person that you are, even though maybe you have to suffer and sacrifice a little. On the contrary, you will attract what you put out. Have a blast at your wine tasting.

[Jessie61]

Ladies - one question as I try to figure out whether I want to go NC now or not: If MW says she loves me, mentions that she misses me terribly when she doesn't see me (but says she rarely lets on), will spend 26 hours straight with me (and says she never tires of me), can I be pretty much assured of her sincerity? I would say 'yes' emphatically, but wonder, especially after the stupid comment about H. I can guess what happened: MW and H had a decent Friday (after I made her happy on Thu), H treated her 'ok' on Sat, yelled at her on Sun, and probably made her feel two feet tall this morning. The pattern repeats itself over and over.

 

BKRPM,

 

I am sure that she is sincere in the sense that she loves you and she misses you etc etc. But as someone pointed out on another thread (I THINK it was movingon05 - but please correct me if I am wrong!), the real issue is does the MM/MW love us ENOUGH? Enough to do something about it so that we can have a future together? That, my friend, is probably something you will never really know until the MM/MW has had to live without you for a while? Unless, of course the MM/MW takes action without being "prodded" by the OW/OM... However, I don't think I have ever known a case where that happened...???

 

This is what is SO hard!!! But I prefer to face the truth than to go on indefinitively with the uncertainty, the humiliation and heart break of an A.

 

You have to make your own decisions though. We can offer support and advice but only you can make the decisions....

[Sami_D]

Ladies - one question as I try to figure out whether I want to go NC now or not: If MW says she loves me, mentions that she misses me terribly when she doesn't see me (but says she rarely lets on), will spend 26 hours straight with me (and says she never tires of me), can I be pretty much assured of her sincerity? I would say 'yes' emphatically, but wonder, especially after the stupid comment about H. I can guess what happened: MW and H had a decent Friday (after I made her happy on Thu), H treated her 'ok' on Sat, yelled at her on Sun, and probably made her feel two feet tall this morning. The pattern repeats itself over and over.

 

Hello again.

 

You're absolutely right that it's a pattern... It seems to me (and I'm no expert of course!) that she lives from day to day, hour to hour, responding to current circumstances. When she's with you... she tells you all that loving stuff, because that's how she feels. But that is NOT enough. Is it?

 

Now... how will knowing whether or not she's sincere in her feelings for you affect your decision to go NC or not? Even if you are the 'love of her life' (if ever such a thing existed) that will NOT be enough if she wants to keep living this life she's in. And she's giving every indication of staying where she is, good, bad or whatever it is... it's what she's chosen.

 

What are you gaining from this R? The feeling of being wanted and needed? Or is she making you happy and fulfilled and giving you a future to look forward to (we know that's not true). You cannot sacrifice your future, and your present happiness, on the altar of someone else's needs and a few words of encouragement to you. You don't have to make a life out of 'being there' for someone in a bad marriage. You deserve MUCH better than that. You need to start believing that.

 

Best of luck.