Has this ever happened?

[Babbs]

Has anyone experienced this situation or something similiar?

 

An affair ends and there is NC - is it ever possible to start talking again and become friends? Does that actually happen? Has anyone ever succeeded in this?

[glittergurl]

Never been there myself, but I highly doubt it.

[Trimmer]

Just out of curiosity, is this a purely hypothetical thought experiment, or do you know one of the participants? (Or are you one of them? )

 

To my thinking, anything is "possible", but looking at things from the viewpoint of the BS, what possible reason could there be for the WS to continue such a relationship? It seems that from the perspective of the participants in the affair, it would be fraught with emotional over- and under-tones - how would you ever get past the past? And from the perspective of the BS, it seems REALLY insensitive of the WS to suggest that the BS should not only attempt to get over the affair, and put energy into staying in and rebuilding the marriage, but also to put up with the idea that the WS wants to continue a relationship with the OM/OW?

 

I just think it sounds like the WS would be sending the BS the message "I don't take this mistake or our marriage or your feelings very seriously, and I plan on continuing to invest energy into this outside relationship that has damaged our marriage."

 

Hmmm, now, from that, can you tell which part I played in my own little marriage psychodrama?

[Babbs]

Thanks Trimmer - I appreciate your response and also understand it. The situation I'm referring to happened to a friend and she posed this question, and thus my question to LS.

 

However, the MM in question is not trying to make his marriage work. He is not living with his W at all. I believe he wanted this. Because he was found out, he decided to have NC with my friend (who is very hurt). It makes her feel that the feelings they had between them were not worth much. Is this what usually happens? All those feelings and emotions are thrown to the wind??

 

So she posed this question of after NC, has anyone ever become friends through all of this - since they were so close at one point. I think there is hardly an exception to this rule but I thought I'd throw it out there.

[cranium]

Originally posted by Trimmer

but looking at things from the viewpoint of the BS, what possible reason could there be for the WS to continue such a relationship? It seems that from the perspective of the participants in the affair, it would be fraught with emotional over- and under-tones - how would you ever get past the past? And from the perspective of the BS, it seems REALLY insensitive of the WS to suggest that the BS should not only attempt to get over the affair, and put energy into staying in and rebuilding the marriage, but also to put up with the idea that the WS wants to continue a relationship with the OM/OW?

 

I just think it sounds like the WS would be sending the BS the message "I don't take this mistake or our marriage or your feelings very seriously, and I plan on continuing to invest energy into this outside relationship that has damaged our marriage."

 

Trimmer reads Cranium's mind.

 

MW and I recently saw her xOM at a party. Neither of us knew he would be there. It brought up old emotions and feelings for all of us. I know she still wishes they could go back to being friends. She also knows that will never happen.

[LucreziaBorgia]

I guess the first step is getting her to ask herself if she and the MM were ever really friends to begin with. Was her friendship borne from the sexual relationship she shared with MM, or was she platonic friends first (and by that I mean NO flirting and NO intent for a long, extended period of time - years) and from that grew a sexual relationship?

 

If the sexual relationship came first, then there can be no friendship really without that, simply because the friendship was contingent on the sexual relationship. When that died, so did any chance at a real friendship.

 

Now, that isn't to say that she can try but chances are if the MM wasn't interested in 'strictly platonic' with her to begin with there is pretty much a zero chance he would be now either. All those feelings, etc that were 'thrown to the wind' - were never about 'friends' - they were about love and sex, not about genuine friendship. You can't go back to 'friends' if you were never really friends to begin with.

 

You'll have to ask your friend to examine why she needs to be friends with this guy. I would wager the motivation lies more into holding on in some way to what she had, rather than forging a new, strictly platonic friendship with this guy.

[Babbs]

You'll have to ask your friend to examine why she needs to be friends with this guy. I would wager the motivation lies more into holding on in some way to what she had, rather than forging a new, strictly platonic friendship with this guy.

 

LB, you are right on the mark with your advice. I believe she would like to hold on to him but I also believe she still cares for him and genuinely wants to see how he is. She just doesn't know how to proceed. Perhaps she could handle it but he can't?

 

No, they were not friends for years before they met. They were friends for a few months, and then things proceeded to the A. I know she's dealing with hurt feelings but I know time will help her too.

 

We just wanted to see if anyone has had an A with a MM and came out genuine friends. Seems like it's not the norm.

[whichwayisup]

Look at it this way...Many people can be on friendly and casual terms with an EX, once the feelings are completely gone. One exboyfriend of mine calls about 2x a year just to say hello and do a quick catch up. He is not my friend and I'm not his friend. I don't know why he calls, but it's not a big deal. My husband knows and I tell him what has been said, doesn't bother him and he's not a threat at all.

 

Chalk the MM/OW situation as more intense and almost obsessed-like. The feelings that can be brought out are much more powerful it seems and takes more energy to get over it when it ends. So, in an OW/MM relationship it's not healthy to keep intouch afterwards, especially if they weren't friends beforehand. And if the MM is working things out at home, any contact with OW is bad for the marriage and his efforts to make it work. Same goes if it's an OM with MW.

[newbby]

maybe if you posted this on the ow forum you would hear of similar stories from people who have been there. in all my time of reading i have heard of a couple of stories where the ow and mm became friends, but only after a long time had passed. i think your friend needs time to get over this mm first, completely, before she even considers contacting him on a friendship basis. many times the feelings are alot deeper for the ow than they are for the mm. it is more likely the mm sees no further use for her now. it is harsh but unfortunately true. being an ex ow myself, i am speaking from experience. your friend is probably trying to kid herself that she can be friends because she does not feel ready emotionally to let go.

[Sami_D]

How long has it been since the affair ended? What has he said to her about possible future contact (if any)? Was it primarily an EA or PA?

 

There is a lot of variation in what happens between the MM and OW when he leaves the W. It's not unusual that the MM doesn't want to pursue a relationship with the OW when his M ends. It's possible that this was what is called an 'exit affair' (a way to get out of the marriage). It's not unusual that he needs a LOT of time to get over the M, to go through the divorce, and to get back his life before considering any other relationship at all.

 

As newbby says, try posting about this on the Other Man/ Other Woman forum, and you could also try reading the gloryb.com site for more information.

 

Best wishes to your friend, and I hope she recovers from this soon whatever happens.

[Babbs]

Thanks to all of you for your insight. This has helped my friend tremendously by reading your opinions and seeing it more clearly.

 

WWIU, you're right when you say the OW/MM is much more obsessed and intense like. It was a very intense relationship on both of their parts. They never thought they could "fall" for each other like this and feel this way. And then when that fateful day came when the wife found out, everything came crashing down and he didn't want to talk to her. That's why she's confused...she didn't do anything to actually hurt him, although he sure seems like he wanted to hurt her by dismissing her and her feelings.

 

Newbby, it's sad to think that the MM was just losing her, but maybe you're right to a degree. If he doesn't keep in touch with her or cares how she's doing right now, I guess it tells her something, right? Just what goes through their minds when the wife finds out? The OW is probably the last thing on their minds.

 

Sami, the affair ended about 1 month ago and he called her up and said "I don't want you to call me anymore". She was stunned, hurt, and felt horrible. She never expected that. They said a few words and that was it. Now she's just plain mad that he could treat her like this! She hasn't called him since. It was an EA and PA. We never heard of an "exit affair" but now that you said it, maybe that's what this was.

 

I know time will help her get over him....it's just hard right now on her because she feels hurt, mad, and stunned he did this. She even thought about calling the wife, but I told her it's not a good idea. All I can say is beware of a woman scorned.

[whichwayisup]

And then when that fateful day came when the wife found out, everything came crashing down and he didn't want to talk to her. That's why she's confused...she didn't do anything to actually hurt him, although he sure seems like he wanted to hurt her by dismissing her and her feelings.

 

But she has to realize that he is married and his wife comes first. It would be very ballsy of her to think she came first in his heart. He has the history, family, friends, a wedding, inlaws, relatives, neighbours - A life with his wife. If your friend thought she could woo him away from all that, she should give her head a shake. She ofcourse can feel what she is feeling, but really, she brought it on herself by allowing this situation to take place. He obviously has decided to make things work at home and the only way he can do that is by doing no contact with her. She has to understand that. She has no choice in the matter.

 

Tell her to leave him alone. Don't call him, email him or text message him! IF she does so, it will hurt her more as he won't reply to her...And if he does, it probably won't be a positive reaction.

[Sami_D]

He obviously has decided to make things work at home and the only way he can do that is by doing no contact with her.

 

Babbs said in her second post that he wasn't trying to make the M work and wasn't living with the W any longer.

 

Is this information definitely correct, Babbs..?

 

Oh, another thing I was wondering, which might affect what's happening is whether he left, or his W kicked him out. If d-day resulted in his W kicking him out and he didn't want that, then he might be very angry with OW at the moment.

[newbby]

i have a theory that the ow is almost like a rebound relationship, in that the mm uses her to feel better about his failing marriage. this coupled with mid life crises, inability to provide, wanting to be just HIMSELF again, without being a husband or a father etc. i dont believe the mm really intends to use the ow in the beginning, but he is never completely straight with her about the importance of his marriage in his life and more often than not lies outrageously about this or does not realise this at the time the a begins. if he has just lost his marriage, he will be doing everything he can to get it back. although he may well have loved the ow (your friend) he never saw her as a replacement for his wife, no matter what he may have said. it is very much a fantasy relationship and the mm is ten times as charming and romantic than other men because of this, he is almost playing a part, which is partly why the relationship is so addictive to the ow, and why she feels she has never been so loved. the romantic words coupled with the unavailability of the mm is a perfect recipe for falling hopelessly in love.

if your friend has internet access she may find it very helpful to go into the ow forum and get some support there for what she is going through. it isnt easy.

[Babbs]

Babbs said in her second post that he wasn't trying to make the M work and wasn't living with the W any longer.

 

Is this information definitely correct, Babbs..?

 

Oh, another thing I was wondering, which might affect what's happening is whether he left, or his W kicked him out. If d-day resulted in his W kicking him out and he didn't want that, then he might be very angry with OW at the moment.

 

Sami, you are correct. He isn't trying to make the marriage work - he is not living at home anymore. The wife has the kids at home and, my guess is, he's visiting as much as possible.

 

Also, the wife kicked him out because he confessed everything. But my friend believes he wanted to be found out, because he was so unhappy at home, and thus the confession. Is this what you meant that the MM is angry with my friend because she was the result of him being kicked out? Actually, the W asked him before if he was having an affair, and he denied it. THIS time, he admits it. It was his own fault, for admitting it and wanting to be kicked out. I think he was venting on my friend for the situation he is now in.

 

WWIU, yes - she does realize that she does not come first and she didn't think she could woo him away BUT she didn't think he would shun her either. She didn't think he would just turn his back on her because of how they felt for each other and that's what stinks.

 

I agree with you WWIU - the best thing now is to do nothing. She is just trying to understand what happened and why.

[Trimmer]

Babbs - I don't want to be disrespectful to your friend, but it makes me a little crazy when an OW gets indignant that she is not accorded respect and consideration by the MM once an affair blows up... I think she's trying to look at the affair as a normal relationship, somehow separate from his marriage, and wondering why the end of this "normal" relationship doesn't bring with it "normal" amounts of respect, concern, courtesy, etc...

 

My view is that the relationship of an affair is fundamentally pathological from its very start, and you can't expect it to follow the path of any "normal" relationship. Both parties, the MM and the OW, enter into it fully realizing that it is based on lies and deception, and should have every reason to believe that people are going to be devastated by its discovery. The MM is proving by his very actions that he will lie and deceive someone that he has promised to love and honor, "forsaking all others", so can you really expect him to behave with honor and courtesy in the wake of the affair's exposure? She is "...just plain mad that he could treat her like this?" Well, she had a front row seat to see the respect he afforded his marriage... I'm sure she had convinced herself that she was different, that what they had was true and pure, but hey, it was still an affair with a MM.

 

I remember reading one poster (an OW) who said she felt used and discarded when her MM went back to his devastated wife. My response was "you were having an affair with a married man - just how can you have expected it to turn out well?"

 

Note I'm not even making any moral arguments here - I'm not even invoking "affairs are wrong" to make my basic point: affairs are based on lies and deception, and therefore the absence of courtesy, respect, or basic human consideration really shouldn't come as any surprise.

[Babbs]

Note I'm not even making any moral arguments here - I'm not even invoking "affairs are wrong" to make my basic point: affairs are based on lies and deception, and therefore the absence of courtesy, respect, or basic human consideration really shouldn't come as any surprise.

 

I agreed with you till this point Trimmer. Even though affairs are wrong, and they are based on lies and deception, it does come as a surprise that courtesy, respect and basic human consideration is missing. People have feelings in ALL situations, good or bad, right or wrong, and should be treated with decency. I'm not saying it's easy in all situations, but if you're good enough to sleep with someone and care about them from the heart, at least treat them decent in the end.

 

And the people who don't treat the OW or OM decent in the end? They're cowards.

[Hot Coco]

But I think when women sleep with someone they attach way more emotions to the act. The MM is not as emotionally invested as the OW. So it's easier for him to act like that and just walk away. They were basically in it just for sex but the OW usually isn't in it ONLY for the sex. So when it's over you see his TRUE colors.

[Trimmer]

Babbs:

 

It's a subtle point, and an interesting one, as long as you can observe it from the outside and you aren't one of the players involved.... I agree with you that people have feelings in all situations and that ideally we would all be decent and caring to each other. But my point is that the MM, by cheating on his wife, has inherently demonstrated a deficit (or at least a temporary suspension) of decency, caring, honesty, etc... So I ask again, why is it a surprise that he shows similar manifestations of that behavior towards the OW? And I'm not going to advocate that he should treat her that way, or that she deserves shabby treatment, but I'm not surprised when it goes down that way.

 

The OW - your friend - wants to see him as the pure, caring, decent person she wants him to be, and he may well have seemed to behave that way during the affair. But she's blinding herself to the elephant in the room - you can't get away from the fact that she was in a relationshiop with a guy who was concurrently cheating on his wife. I ask again, how can she expect honorable behavior? Or, perhaps more precisely, I'll grant that she may well expect it, but how can she be surprised when she doesn't get it?

 

So really, there are two issues that kind of fall out of your discussion here:

 

Is the described behavior of the MM "normal", "expected", "common", "surprising", etc.?

No one explanation exactly matches every case, but based on stories I've read here on LS, it doesn't seem like his behavior is particularly unusual. The OW is turned away unceremoniously by the MM? I'm shocked - shocked! I'd be glad to entertain opposing viewpoints, but...

 

What should the behaviour of the MM towards the OW be, or what treatment is deserved, etc...

I won't even take a shot at this one. If I were writing the rule book, it would go something like this: if there are problems, first give your spouse a chance to join with you in solving them, then if you can't, leave the relationship before starting a new one. I can't think of what the guidelines would be for conducting an affair with decency and respect.

[Babbs]

I can't think of what the guidelines would be for conducting an affair with decency and respect.

 

Trimmer, that's just it - it's not the affair I'm talking about - there is nothing decent or respectful about an affair. I'm talking about respecting a person here, not the affair. I would try to treat someone with decency in almost every circumstance, and, yes, even in or after an affair.

 

But your points are very well taken and understood. I understand where you're coming from and how you got to your conclusion. It's a sticky situation to begin with, one that should never happen, but it does. And when it does, feelings should be taken into consideration at the end of it. They were certainly taken into consideration during it, when it was all fun and games.

 

Hot Coco, could be true about MM being in the A just for sex - hopefully, some have deeper feelings too. But I believe the OW almost always is more emotionally involved with her MM than vice versa.

[Trimmer]

...feelings should be taken into consideration at the end of it. They were certainly taken into consideration during it, when it was all fun and games.

 

Ahhh, I hear you, but maybe here you've hit upon my point - your friend (understandably) is trying to see this affair as a "normalized" relationship, with a normal approach to feelings and emotions. Just as a thought experiment, though, I maintain that any dating, boyfriend/girlfriend relationship (let's say, regardless of whether it is an affair) that ends with one partner ignoring/disrespecting/failing to graciously acknowledge the feelings of the other partner must make you question your perception of what the relationship was built on in the first place. Then add back into the mix that this was an affair, and questioning perceptions of the foundation of the relationship just gets easier and easier.

 

You are taking as a given that the relationship started was built upon mutual feelings, emotion, and respect, and then can't figure out where they went when it was over. I suggest you must consider the possibility that those feelings and emotions, weren't really what you believed them to be (or at least, they weren't truly mutual), and then it becomes no significant stretch to imagine them somehow missing after it's over.

 

Your choice of words is notable: maybe it was all just "fun and games," rather than emotions, feelings, mutual respect, etc... He deceived his wife about his feelings for and connection to her - it's not hard to imagine him deceiving your friend, to get something he wanted...

 

I'm sorry if I seem to be hard on your friend, but if she's going to get over this and move on, she needs to be honest with herself. She was playing with matches (knowingly, I assume) so it just seems pretty naiive to be surprised that she got burned.

 

Hot Coco, could be true about MM being in the A just for sex - hopefully, some have deeper feelings too.

 

Sorry - again, I am intrigued by your ability to detach the relationship part of an affair from the emotional agony, confusion, fear, and betrayal that it wreaks upon the participants and family members. I think you underestimate the destruction and devastation that affairs wreak, and the emotionally unbalanced condition the participants are left in. Let me tell you, the feelings of the "outsider" are not high on the priority list of the "insiders" just struggling to survive.

 

And are you saying that you hope that some MM's having affairs have deeper feelings for their OW - that this would make their affairs better, more pure, more ideal? That this would solve some kind of unfortunate inequity or bring things into some kind of harmonious balance?

 

I would get more hope from the idea that partners in a marriage would try to have deeper feelings for each other.

 

I'm sorry, Babbs - I've been through a couple bad situations, and other folks on here have shared lots worse stories even than mine. I have truly lost my innocence, and I am no longer surprised at a lot of the screwed up stuff people do to each other. I wish they wouldn't, and I think you and I would agree that they shouldn't, but I now know that they do.

[lilmoma1973]

Never been there myself, but I highly doubt it.

 

Me either but i doubt it too!!! Wouldn't want to even put myself in a situation like that to get hurt or mess with someones elses marriage just is plain wrong !! Just my 2 cents on that !!

[Mz. Pixie]

You know, once my OM and I decided our little fling was a mistake and we called it off we didn't talk for a couple of months.

 

He called when he found out about the divorce, and he has been nothing but supportive.

 

There was another issue going on in our lives that we had to have some limited contact. The difference was, we were friends for years and years before this happened. The other thing was, he fully stepped up and took responsibility for what he did- and apologized to me, as well as to his wife. Who ended up staying with him.

 

There is probably no one happier for me that I'm married again and have a good husband now. He is not interested in what happened between us before and neither am I.

 

The thing is, if he would have treated me like this guy has treated her I would not be even interested in being his friend.

[Babbs]

.

And are you saying that you hope that some MM's having affairs have deeper feelings for their OW - that this would make their affairs better, more pure, more ideal? That this would solve some kind of unfortunate inequity or bring things into some kind of harmonious balance?

 

First the answer to your question - no, I'm not saying that at all. I think an affair can never be described as "better, more pure, more ideal". Affairs are not right, period. I never said they were. But they happen, and then you deal with it. But HOW you deal with it, when it's over, is another matter.

 

It's so easy to dismiss the OW, so easy. It's so easy, when things don't go right at the end to act rude and dismiss the other person. I'm saying that the MM (or MW for that matter) shouldn't take the easy route. I'm saying that the person you were having the affair with deserves respect too (even if it's not in a respectful situation) to end it the right way.

 

All of your points are valid Trimmer and they've made my friend think a lot, so thank you. But she decided to end it on a high note, wishing him well and saying goodbye, while he hung up on her. That's what prompted this thread. She is moving on (and doing quite well I must add) but when I read all the threads here about MM's treating the OW terrible, after the A, it made me think.

 

Yes, she was playing with matches and does she deserve to be burned? If that's the way you want to look at it, sure, why not? But if someone once cared so deeply for someone during this abnormal relationship, the right thing to do would be to end it decently and then walk away. There's nothing "normal" about an A, but you're still dealing with people's feelings.

 

I'm not saying that all A's should end decent since some are verbally abusive to start with, with many ups and downs. I'm saying that my friend was surprised at how hers ended.

 

You're right Trimmer - nothing suprises me anymore from what I read on LS and in real life. But isn't it refreshing when someone goes outside the norm and ends things on a high note? It tells something about that person and sure makes the person feel better in the long run.

[Babbs]

. The thing is, if he would have treated me like this guy has treated her I would not be even interested in being his friend.

 

How true Ms. Pixie - and that's what's happening with her. If he can treat her like that after all they've been through, what kind of a person is he? She realizes that now. Thanks.