From OW to W--What Wins, What Loses, And The Art of Getting A Grip

August 17, 2005

So much low self esteem on here it is maddening. With the carrying on in this forum why would a single man let alone a MM want to be with individuals like this? I know you wonderful ladies need a place to vent, and rightly so. But we need to see more strong personalities here, if you are going to step to the plate and give a swing with your whole mind, body and spirit with these things. Be honest with yourselves. If you are replaceable he will replace. If you are disposable he will dispose. But if you are his life's goal, identity and desire, he will come for you and fight for you. It happens, it has happened, it happened with me. But to have this happen you have be one hell of a self possessed individual. So if you can stand the length here and the eye strain, read on here, till the end. It will help you and tell you what works and what does not work (from the experience of my situation).

Remember, women determine the course of a relationship. Men, for the most part, respond accordingly. If a woman gives herself easily and allows herself to be manipulated (and you are being manipulated the very second you "think" you just might be being manipulated), then the tone of the relationship is permanently set. A woman who presents a very strong standard of self respect and self confidence will be respected. I am not, of course, the first on this forum to state such obvious truisms, but my how it bears endless repeating in this world of sad sack women who just have not become individuals with every opportunity in this free, rich world to do so. Stop the whining right now. Stop with names like "Depressed to Wait" and "Sad Little Moi" and "I am Confused". Stop it now. With this kind of self regard, you are simply ASKING to be treated poorly.

I went into my case with practically a sign slung around my neck, "For Marriage Only". For the first nine months we saw each other, we did not touch each other, and no batty-lashed flirtation. I am an American journalist living in northern Italy. He is a Swiss banker and someone I met over the course of researching an article on a chapter of European history. Our connection was intellectually grounded, and politically, culturally, as well as physically--but the "content" of this attraction was first and foremost personality substantive. The excellent physical and then much later sexual aspect was secondary--not the main feature. When we met I was 34, the affair--if that is the word--started when I was 35, and we married when I was (am) 36. He is 24 years older. A civilized friendship started, very reserved, polite, "old Europe" in the sense of manners and comportment, elegance and emotional control. But as confidence grew, details of a marriage on his part very slowly emerged, but never with a sense of "agenda". For he is very deeply Catholic, hails from a discretion oriented family, and it is not his "culture" if you will to just pour out things. So I sensed someone who had a very deadened emotional relationship with his wife, and I later learned that they had not made love in 10 years. It is not my place nor any "other woman"'s place to "bash" the w in any case, but let me only say here that his situation was one in which the marriage after valiant years on his end to make something of it, was met with gross lack of reception by a wife who told him once that she married him for "social reasons" and "that is how it is".

I say "valiant" because in addition to bearing the brunt of all of this he was faithful throughout it all--22 years. Not one one-night stand, not one affair, no emotional affair, and believe me, he is a prize and could have have his pick, this dashing high society PH D. Why such monk-like living? Well, again: the Catholicism and the decision he made that that was the decision he made, and cheating was unacceptable. His frustrations were vented in tennis, skiing, friends but he later described himself as "the living dead" without love, without an emotional life.

Well prior to me coming on to the scene, he had begun to contemplate a divorce. Annulment was considered, but he has a 17 year old son and even I thought that annulment, the "Catholic" divorce so to speak, was a mite too strong a step to take after 22 years. I saw him for almost exactly a year, then broke it off. Six months after that, he proposed. Here are some conclusions from me about what "works", if that is the correct term, and what does not, where you are the ow and are wondering what may or may not happen.

1) His marriage must be in a state of irreversible disrepair regardless of your being in the picture. He has to be already contemplating divorce. The conviction must be taking place outside of you, you are a "catalyst" perhaps, but not the foundation of what is amiss.

2) He does not hide it. My then MM told his wife almost right away when we became intimate, that he was seeing someone and would "not give her up"--yet another warning call to his w that they had serious issues. Her response was to "go do what you want", followed by anger, and so on and so forth. But total refusal to work on anything.

3) I made it clear, he accepted clearly, that our relation, whatever the course of development, would ultimately become a make or break, divorce or no divorce situation. There was never any acceptance on either end that I should be a "mistress" in the sense that this would bumble along without definition. Well into three months I told him he must start to contemplate changing his life

4) You must be a WHOLESALE IMPROVEMENT in his life. You cannot be simply the cute distraction, the sexy babe, the escape from reality, the interesting "other". No, you must represent that not only might the grass be greener on the other side, but that it truly is.

5) You must have the patience of an angel and nerves of steel.

6) You must be a grown up. You must be in control of your emotions. You won't be 100% of the time--I sure was not. But I was 90% of the time. He is not going to leave one ruined emotional state of affairs in his marriage for a chaotic emotional state of affairs in someone new. The onus on the OW is to be super-human, I am sorry. You are in extraordinary circumstances and you must be and act extraordinary.

7) You must be Queen---confidence, cool, being clear of your life's desires and dreams

8) You must be Geisha--accomodating, the listening ear, the gentle side of life

9) He must have NO RECORD of other OWs, he should have no flings, one night stands in his married past.

10) He must be uncomfortable with the whole business, as should you. While vixens and husbands having affairs receive little public sympathy (and for the most part, rightly so) , you must have character. You should see him with a certain amount of guilt, discomfort, conscience. You have to see character. It SHOULD be difficult.

11) Be wary of fast promises. Be wary of actions too quick, I love Yous that spill to early, planning weddings and futures when foundations are not solid--all what your instinct tells you but that sweep past us when we are swept away. Stand firm on this earth. Shoulders back, head up!

12) You must have a brilliant sense of self identity. You must be a person unto yourself. So in those pockets of lonliness, uncertainty, insecurity, you have your brilliant interests to pursue, you relish all what being single can offer--jumping on planes, trains, boats when you want. Starting Russian lessons for the hell of it. Walking your beautiful walk when you go to the Opera with your cape thrown around your shoulder and no snoring husband. NEVER FORGET that Audrey Hepburn in Paris feeling of how great life is and go after it with zeal. That is an order.

13) I made noise at 3 months, stated clearly that I needed to see actions on the homefront with regard to possible divorce at 6 months, walked away at 9 months, and from the corner of my distance eye saw, felt and sensed action on his end at 12 months, and almost six months later was proposed to

14) When he said to me once, "I don't think I can do this. It is too much upheaval, I have too many doubts. I cannot live without you but this is too much to bear at the moment", I responded: "Phew! Now I am free to take sailing lessons in Scotland!"

(see item 12)

15) I am not so gung ho self confident 24 hours a day. But any over the top anger, "why???" questioning, harping, arguing in past relationships got me the following:

a) no where

b) no where fast

c) unhappy and running round and round in the same place

d) all of the above

16) The biggie: If he says that he is not "in love" with his wife, but that he "loves her", run far and fast. That "love" bond, however weakened, is a habit for him, and it will be the glue that bonds. He really must be in an over and done with relationship that simply did not work out.

17) The bigger biggie: When he said to me, "I cannot live without you" I said, "Go and work on your marriage and get back to me". When he went and came back and said, "I cannot live without you" I said, "Go back and work on your marriage and then get back to me". And once again. Ladies, you want to make sure that in the swooning and romantic aching, that there is a REALITY CHECK. If you are strong, and you must be, you must turn over EVERY STONE and live with ALL RISKS that he might just might "work on things" at the end of the day. I told him to do so. And when it was really over, I knew it really was.

18) The biggest. Words and actions. Words and actions, at the end of the day. Nuff said.

This is a great site, with wonderful people giving thoughtful advice. I want to contribute with my experience. Do not worry if it does not work out. Your future is not over. My aunt married (in 1941) at the age of 37 and had three sets of twins and one bonus baby--7 kids. Another aunt married at 40 and had a child at 44. All of my friends are "older" and these stories are not so unusual.

Clare Booth Luce, a famous American OW who became w to one of the most powerful men in the US, and herself was a playwright and Congresswoman once said to women: "You have two choices in life: You can be a lion or a mouse. That is it". She was right. You either command with your presence, force of self, and strength, or you wimper away and accept crumbs. Many women here and all over must must must at once figure this out.

August 17, 2005

Originally posted by OldEurope
So much low self esteem on here it is maddening. With the carrying on in this forum why would a single man let alone a MM want to be with individuals like this? I know you wonderful ladies need a place to vent, and rightly so. But we need to see more strong personalities here, if you are going to step to the plate and give a swing with your whole mind, body and spirit with these things. Be honest with yourselves. If you are replaceable he will replace. If you are disposable he will dispose. But if you are his life's goal, identity and desire, he will come for you and fight for you. It happens, it has happened, it happened with me. But to have this happen you have be one hell of a self possessed individual. So if you can stand the length here and the eye strain, read on here, till the end. It will help you and tell you what works and what does not work (from the experience of my situation).

Remember, women determine the course of a relationship. Men, for the most part, respond accordingly. If a woman gives herself easily and allows herself to be manipulated (and you are being manipulated the very second you "think" you just might be being manipulated), then the tone of the relationship is permanently set. A woman who presents a very strong standard of self respect and self confidence will be respected. I am not, of course, the first on this forum to state such obvious truisms, but my how it bears endless repeating in this world of sad sack women who just have not become individuals with every opportunity in this free, rich world to do so. Stop the whining right now. Stop with names like "Depressed to Wait" and "Sad Little Moi" and "I am Confused". Stop it now. With this kind of self regard, you are simply ASKING to be treated poorly.

1) His marriage must be in a state of irreversible disrepair regardless of your being in the picture. He has to be already contemplating divorce. The conviction must be taking place outside of you, you are a "catalyst" perhaps, but not the foundation of what is amiss.

2) He does not hide it. My then MM told his wife almost right away when we became intimate, that he was seeing someone and would "not give her up"--yet another warning call to his w that they had serious issues. Her response was to "go do what you want", followed by anger, and so on and so forth. But total refusal to work on anything.

3) I made it clear, he accepted clearly, that our relation, whatever the course of development, would ultimately become a make or break, divorce or no divorce situation. There was never any acceptance on either end that I should be a "mistress" in the sense that this would bumble along without definition. Well into three months I told him he must start to contemplate changing his life

4) You must be a WHOLESALE IMPROVEMENT in his life. You cannot be simply the cute distraction, the sexy babe, the escape from reality, the interesting "other". No, you must represent that not only might the grass be greener on the other side, but that it truly is.

5) You must have the patience of an angel and nerves of steel.

6) You must be a grown up. You must be in control of your emotions. You won't be 100% of the time--I sure was not. But I was 90% of the time. He is not going to leave one ruined emotional state of affairs in his marriage for a chaotic emotional state of affairs in someone new. The onus on the OW is to be super-human, I am sorry. You are in extraordinary circumstances and you must be and act extraordinary.

7) You must be Queen---confidence, cool, being clear of your life's desires and dreams

8) You must be Geisha--accomodating, the listening ear, the gentle side of life

9) He must have NO RECORD of other OWs, he should have no flings, one night stands in his married past.

10) He must be uncomfortable with the whole business, as should you. While vixens and husbands having affairs receive little public sympathy (and for the most part, rightly so) , you must have character. You should see him with a certain amount of guilt, discomfort, conscience. You have to see character. It SHOULD be difficult.

11) Be wary of fast promises. Be wary of actions too quick, I love Yous that spill to early, planning weddings and futures when foundations are not solid--all what your instinct tells you but that sweep past us when we are swept away. Stand firm on this earth. Shoulders back, head up!

12) You must have a brilliant sense of self identity. You must be a person unto yourself. So in those pockets of lonliness, uncertainty, insecurity, you have your brilliant interests to pursue, you relish all what being single can offer--jumping on planes, trains, boats when you want. Starting Russian lessons for the hell of it. Walking your beautiful walk when you go to the Opera with your cape thrown around your shoulder and no snoring husband. NEVER FORGET that Audrey Hepburn in Paris feeling of how great life is and go after it with zeal. That is an order.

13) I made noise at 3 months, stated clearly that I needed to see actions on the homefront with regard to possible divorce at 6 months, walked away at 9 months, and from the corner of my distance eye saw, felt and sensed action on his end at 12 months, and almost six months later was proposed to

14) When he said to me once, "I don't think I can do this. It is too much upheaval, I have too many doubts. I cannot live without you but this is too much to bear at the moment", I responded: "Phew! Now I am free to take sailing lessons in Scotland!"
(see item 12)

15) I am not so gung ho self confident 24 hours a day. But any over the top anger, "why???" questioning, harping, arguing in past relationships got me the following:
a) no where
b) no where fast
c) unhappy and running round and round in the same place
d) all of the above

16) The biggie: If he says that he is not "in love" with his wife, but that he "loves her", run far and fast. That "love" bond, however weakened, is a habit for him, and it will be the glue that bonds. He really must be in an over and done with relationship that simply did not work out.

17) The bigger biggie: When he said to me, "I cannot live without you" I said, "Go and work on your marriage and get back to me". When he went and came back and said, "I cannot live without you" I said, "Go back and work on your marriage and then get back to me". And once again. Ladies, you want to make sure that in the swooning and romantic aching, that there is a REALITY CHECK. If you are strong, and you must be, you must turn over EVERY STONE and live with ALL RISKS that he might just might "work on things" at the end of the day. I told him to do so. And when it was really over, I knew it really was.

18) The biggest. Words and actions. Words and actions, at the end of the day. Nuff said.

Well girls.. there ya have it. Why couldn't we all be like that?

August 17, 2005

It's not as easy as you make it sound. Some of our ex-MM have ALOT of history with the W.. kids, etc. And most of the time, they're the ones who determine the course of the relationship.. because they're the married ones. They're the ones with the W, the kids, etc. You don't think I tried all that? To be the great girl that was there for him.. to make him see the grass was greener. I was an adult about it, I was an improvement from where he was. And I had the patience of a saint. But when it came down to it, he stood to lose too much. He had had history with the W. And a cheating MM with a history of no prior offenses? HA I say.. See I think what it is, is most of us were so into our MM, we would've done anything for him. And alot of us tried to show him he'd be a step up from the W.. didn't work. And then there are those of us that never asked them to leave the W.

August 17, 2005

It's not as easy as you make it sound. Some of our ex-MM have ALOT of history with the W.. kids, etc. And most of the time, they're the ones who determine the course of the relationship.. because they're the married ones. They're the ones with the W, the kids, etc. You don't think I tried all that? To be the great girl that was there for him.. to make him see the grass was greener. I was an adult about it, I was an improvement from where he was. And I had the patience of a saint. But when it came down to it, he stood to lose too much. He had had history with the W. And a cheating MM with a history of no prior offenses? HA I say.. See I think what it is, is most of us were so into our MM, we would've done anything for him. And alot of us tried to show him he'd be a step up from the W.. didn't work. And then there are those of us that never asked them to leave the W.

August 17, 2005

To Erika,

I certainly do not make it "sound" easy and it most certainly was not.

Obviously, after 22 years of marriage he had a lot of history as well.

You may not have asked your MM to leave his wife, but you do or at one time did hope that he would.

August 17, 2005

Originally posted by OldEurope
To Erika,

I certainly do not make it "sound" easy and it most certainly was not.

Obviously, after 22 years of marriage he had a lot of history as well.

You may not have asked your MM to leave his wife, but you do or at one time did hope that he would.

I did at one time hoped he would.. but it was a blessing that he didn't. But he stayed with the W.. not because I wasn't good enough, but because he had kids.

August 17, 2005

I agree with a lot of what Old Europe has said. However; the man you met comes from an honorable italian family. The american counterpart doesn't have those distinct character traits....some do, but he is the exception, not the rule.

I have made a mistake in the past and learned from it. I learned to never let a relationship with a married man get physical unless he is Divorced. I am in a EA affair type predicament now in which I decided to end. I am remaining strong and sticking to it...even with multiple attempts by him to keep the communication going....However: I need to make sure he knows he can never have me, as long as he stays in his marriage.

August 17, 2005

Your advice sounds pretty good - pretty straightforward stuff, and probably works if the guy isn't a cakeman and has little or no emotional investment or ties to his wife and marriage. It sounds like good advice to separate the cakeman from the guys who are genuinely ready to leave their marriages.

So... I guess the bottom line is, if you absolutely have to go after someone else's husband or reciprocate when someone else's husband comes after you - make sure he was planning to leave anyway? I'm not sure how much self esteem plays in 'winning' a man who was on the way out anyway. If a man wants to leave his marriage, he does. If he does not want to leave his marriage, he does not. Nothing an OW says, does, or threatens will change that. Some men leave their marriages, others don't - regardless of how much self esteem a woman does or does not have.

I guess you got lucky - your man apparently isn't a cakeman and wanted out of the marriage anyway.

August 17, 2005

OldEurope-

How long have you been married to him now?

I have to say that your case is VERY likely going to be the exception rather than the rule, for a LOT of reasons. Rarely does the wife or husband simply say "do what you want". Most of the time, they'll fight hard to keep the person that they're married to. Rarely will the MM/MW admit to their spouse that something is going on...normally they're very content to be 'cake eaters'. There are so many things about your situation that seem far different than what happens for most people that it makes it difficult to look at your situation without a sense of wonder.

I have to say that both you and your MM sound like exceptional people...which is why I think that your case isn't a shining example of what to do, merely a fortuitous situation that is unlikely in the extreme for most other people to find themselves in. Consider yourself and your MM to both be lottery winners...and what ARE the odds of two lottery winners finding each other???

Regardless, good luck to you. I hope that everything works out well for everyone in your situation.

August 17, 2005

Dear Owl,

Thank you for your kind comments. Six months.

To LB, he wanted "out"--since his 40s. But did not get "out" because of a traditional outlook on marriage, and was "set" to accept his fate as it was. He was in and out of counseling and talking to doctors and extended family to deal with the stress. I became, in his words, the love that he had long sought in his life and did not have.

His wife fought very hard and the "do what you want" was the kind of glib comment she would assert as a means of avoiding confronting their fundamental problems.

It is not "luck" that happened. It was a logical conclusion

August 17, 2005

Originally posted by OldEurope

1. To LB, he wanted "out"--since his 40s. But did not get "out" because of a traditional outlook on marriage, and was "set" to accept his fate as it was. He was in and out of counseling and talking to doctors and extended family to deal with the stress. I became, in his words, the love that he had long sought in his life and did not have.

2. His wife fought very hard and the "do what you want" was the kind of glib comment she would assert as a means of avoiding confronting their fundamental problems.

3. It is not "luck" that happened. It was a logical conclusion

1. Its good that he found the love he needed in his life, and that you were there to strike when the iron was hot.

2. That is an unfortunate band-aid indeed. I only wish I could hear her side of the story. I expect there's more to it than any of us will know. I feel bad for him that he was in a marriage he didn't want, and I feel bad for her that she was stuck with a husband who did not love or want her. Painful for both, but ultimately best for them both to end the marriage.

3. Luck, only in that you were in the right place at the right time in this guy's life - logical conclusion that he eventually left, of course.

Like I said, you are lucky in that he wasn't a cakeman and wanted out of his marriage to begin with. Most OW don't end up in 'happily ever after' situations like yours.

August 17, 2005

Thank you for that wonderful post OldEurope.

I only hope your good advice does not fall on death ears for those who are not yet at a place in their life where they can fully comprehend the wisdom and experience in your words.

Not only is this advice beneficial to those who have sadly fallen for married people, but personally, I find it applicable for every single relationship situation where one partner finds themselves desperately (and sometimes pathetically) laying themselves down as doormat hoping to gain the love and respect from the ambivalent object of their affection. Both men and women, alike. Single and/or married.

After all, at one time or another - in one situation or another - we've all been there.

So much low self esteem on here it is maddening. With the carrying on in this forum why would a single man let alone a MM want to be with individuals like this? I know you wonderful ladies need a place to vent, and rightly so. But we need to see more strong personalities here, if you are going to step to the plate and give a swing with your whole mind, body and spirit with these things. Be honest with yourselves. If you are replaceable he will replace. If you are disposable he will dispose. But if you are his life's goal, identity and desire, he will come for you and fight for you.

If a woman gives herself easily and allows herself to be manipulated (and you are being manipulated the very second you "think" you just might be being manipulated), then the tone of the relationship is permanently set. A woman who presents a very strong standard of self respect and self confidence will be respected.

--but the "content" of this attraction was first and foremost personality substantive. The excellent physical and then much later sexual aspect was secondary--not the main feature.

You must be a WHOLESALE IMPROVEMENT in his life. You cannot be simply the cute distraction, the sexy babe, the escape from reality, the interesting "other". No, you must represent that not only might the grass be greener on the other side, but that it truly is.

12) You must have a brilliant sense of self identity. You must be a person unto yourself. So in those pockets of lonliness, uncertainty, insecurity, you have your brilliant interests to pursue, you relish all what being single can offer--

August 17, 2005

To LB

Thank you for the thoughtful replies and I understand the varying perceptions of this story. I would never "encourage" any woman to be the ow, but I wrote with those in mind who were. But too many women on the forum have terrible self esteem and that must be recognized at once, for their relations will go nowhere--with "MM" or single.

As for "striking while the iron hot", well, you have a way with words! It was more a slow, soft burn.....

August 17, 2005

Thank you Enigma...

Yes, it is interesting I find too that whether with single men or "mm" (if it so is) that the comportment of a woman must be the same. Many will here respond that, of course, the two situations are entirely different, but the nature of the male beast remains the same: a woman must make very clear her wishes and desires, remain CONSISTENT, and above all, an entity unto herself

August 17, 2005

i think the difference is not so much about a win or lose strategy as a win or lose situation.

it is a great prevention, and a great story, but for those who are already stuck in a relationship with a mm, who have been physical, or the mm is not truly done with his marriage, or the mm is not an otherwise whole and happy person, or the mm has fairly young children, or any other imperfect scenario, it is not a great cure.

August 17, 2005

…it is not a great cure.

I don't see it as a great "cure" either. Rather, I see it as an excellent "preventive" measure … one that encourages self empowerment. Hindsight is 20/20…but OE's story shows an amazing amount of foresight and clarity… an ability to "get real" with herself regarding her situation.

Her "get a grip" strategy is conducive for living a healthy, happy "life"… and not just how to get what she wants in relationships.

Because of her steadfast ability to remain true to herself in spite of circumstance, not only was she able to influence the outcome of her situation, but I imagine she would have eventually carried on to live a full and happy life even if things had not worked out in her favor.

I suppose, in that event, her philosophy may have very well served as her "cure."

I think OE's outlook on life and the way she handles herself almost guarantees that she will always come out on top … either way. But I also understand that it is sometimes easier to say than it is to actually put in practice.

August 17, 2005

she has a great outlook on life, i agree.

i think that kind of thinking requires practise for alot of people.

i also think that for the majority of ow on this board, this positive thinking has not been practised enough (if at all) by the time we got into our situations, otherwise we would probably have realised our particular mm were not the type who would leave their wives and moved on to better things long before we got hooked.

it is not too late to put the philosophy into practise however, and if we do, it could also be OUR cure.

August 17, 2005

OE --

thanks for the much-needed breath of fresh air and SANITY you delivered in your post. I understand that you are in no way promoting adultery or affairs, but simply letting women know that they should not sell theirselves short, and that it can be done.

I am sorry to hear that his first marriage devolved to the state it had, because no matter what the reasons for divorce are, I can only imagine it's not an easy thing to do when you believe in the institution of marriage with all your heart.

Annulment was considered, but he has a 17 year old son and even I thought that annulment, the "Catholic" divorce so to speak, was a mite too strong a step to take after 22 years.

tell your husband there is hope, that in a church annulment, no issue (offspring) are illegitimatized because they are not affected by the dissolution of marriage. Why? Because the Church looks to dispute the sacramental nature of a marriage when one files for an annulment.

if you have access to a priest in a US parish, contact him for counselling on the annulment process. From what I understand, there is a huge difference in the mindset of US Catholics, who understand that they have every right to appeal the Church for an annulment, and those outside this country, who believe that it is a death do us part thing, even though that marriage had serious flaws (sacramentally speaking). If you don't know any priests, contact your home diocese and talk to the person who works in the tribunal to see who they can hook you up with, or PM me, and I can give you the contact information for a priest friend who is wonderful about helping couples.

If your husband is as devout as I see in your posts, this might give him some peace of mind knowing that he can be reconciled through the sacraments and have your marriage blessed by the Church.

again, thanks for the frank, intelligent viewpoint you've given,

quank

August 18, 2005

Dear Quakeanne,

Thanks for your words. It is very interesting what you said about the annulment process, and the US vs European Catholic views of its practice. Somehow the psychological hurdle for my H to more or less "cancel" a marriage--even if that is not technically correct--was a complicated one and divorce was opted for instead (not that that was a bed of roses either).

It is kind of you to see my post as a "breath of fresh air". Its just too too frustrating to go through life without living, isn't it?

August 18, 2005

you're welcome, OE. with my non-Catholic husband shying away from the same annulment question (but for different reasons), I've had to bug some of my coworkers (I work for a Catholic diocese) for information, so I'm always happy to share that kind of information.

yeah, the US/European views are pretty interesting -- my bishop said that once, a French bishop was making unkind comments about the vast number of annulments coming out of the US, so he told him that this was the case because people wanted to remain active and in communion in their church. Whereas, people in his country ... well, priests only saw them twice in their lives, at baptism and when they buried them. Of course, Corrada said it in a much, sweeter-but-zingier way!

some things for your husband to think about: several folks I've met who've been through the process or work in the tribunal, say that it's a very hard process to experience because the person filling out the form has to relive that painful past AND have to give credible support for their annulment cause. But, they all say it provides a kind of catharsis, because through the process of writing and providing information, even the waiting, they're able to make peace with that failed marriage, and they come away with a better idea of what constitutes a sacramental union in the eyes of the church. The best part, according to them? Knowing that you will never, ever have to deal with that again, because it's done and over, and it won't come up again.

August 19, 2005

Old Europe, I absolutely enjoyed reading your post. I am not the OW, but I find it very useful. Thank you!

I must say that you shouldn't forget that your husband is European and they differ greatly from Americans (I am dating a guy from the US). In the US many women have a problem with making the guy marry them. It's some new-age trend that guys reluctantly commit and get married.

It's not like that in Europe. Nowhere in Europe will you hear that a guy is dating a woman seriously for years, she wants to get married and he doesn't; but loves her and doesn't want to let her go.

In Europe the desire for marriage is usually mutual. That's probably because in Europe getting married is not such a risk for the man. In America, a man can experience severe financial fiasco due to a divorce. Besides, they view the American women as bitches who cheat and nag and pump their rights and when they decide to divorce them they rip them off. Hence their fear of the M word.

In Europe it doesn't happen that way. Women are more traditional and meek, they don't see men as enemies and when they get divorced they usually lose financially.

So things would probably be quite different if your man weren't European, but American.

But I LOVED your post! It's so truthful about relationships between men and women in general.

August 19, 2005

Regarding annulment..., how can you annul a marriage that has lasted for 20 years? As much as I know, you can only do it if the marriage lasts for less than a year.

August 20, 2005

Dear RP,

Many thanks for your post. The cultural differences toward marriage are indeed striking between American and European views, but I have long thought that Europeans have a far more civilized view about male-female relations than in the States, where everything has been politicized to death. American Feminism went way to extremes, and now my generation--let's say the 30s--and below is quite a deeply confused one. Same with the fellows. Some of this tension has crept into Europe--through media influences I would say--for the worse.

I would not say that European women are more "meek", for I know very beautiful, very strongly-minded European women here who are writers, editors, leading companies, lawyers etc who are still very feminine, they are not afraid of being feminine on top of all else whereas an American woman, often, finds herself ill at ease with combining a strong personality with a tip of the hat to Nature. Its a hard to strike balance, but its the art of being a woman, I find.

I am second generation American, but the women in my fathers and mother's families were this kind of strong but beautiful type, that I felt Europe excelled at. Feminism--the brutal kind, I mean, not the we-want-the-vote kind--was not "necessary" as a political movement that ended up intimidating the men.

You ask if things for me would have been "otherwise" had he been American. I will say that his tradiitonal upbringing and strong Catholicism were very close to "stopping" everything between us. An American would not have this kind of "pull" of his "roots" tugging at his decision making.

But you ask a great question.

As for the annulment process, what I learned it that it IS possible after so many years--but he, like I, thought that was just "too much"

Anyway, keep up your great posts...

August 20, 2005

Thanks, Old Europe! Catholicism is probably a strong influences to the believers' lives. I am not religious myself so I wouldn't know. However there is another M word that is sometimes stronger than all our beliefs together - MONEY!

In the US, many men never recover financially from their divorces, especially if they have been divorced for more than 10 years, their wives didn't work, and have children. The law has stepped so much on the woman's side that it produced contra-effect; men reluctantly propose and prepare their prenupts together with their families in order to protect themselves from financial loss in case of divorce.

I admire America and Canada for supporting woman's rights with such enthusiasm, but there is so much the law can do for women. It cannot make men not protect themselves.

August 20, 2005

I am female (American -- sort of...) but if I were Male, I would be terrified to marry most of the young women I know. I don't understand the complete emphasis on Money. Maybe it is because I am older. Scary stuff for the men though!

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