Help for an age old problem

[norcaldivr]

Hi All,

 

I have a question about the initial meetings that I would to get some opinions on. The guys probably have a better perspective but all points of view are welcome. Here's a chance to help males the world over tackle a problem that has plagued male-dom since the beginning of time.

 

A little background. I was once a hopelessly shy person who could not even think about talking to strangers let alone women. I decided to break out of this prison of my own making. I bought a self-help book on shyness, read it, and most importantly practiced. It was nothing short of a miracle. Though I can never totally escape my inner roots I have become a different person. This was about twenty years ago.

 

I recently have got back into the dating scene after a very LTR dissolved about two years ago. I have been reasonably sucessful and have met some wonderful people though no one I have connected with enough to develop into another LTR which is what I really want. At first I was stumbling through being a complete klutz but using my old standby, reading self-help books then applying the lessons in the real world I improved dramaticly. I'm still no Don Juan by any means but compared to where I was two years ago I am light years ahead. At first I thought only losers needed to read books on how to relate to the opposite sex. I then came to realize that for those like myself who never had these skills come naturally taking an active role to improve myself by learning and not being afraid to apply what I learned in the real world is hardly the mark of a loser. That's what winners do when they realize they are deficient in a particular area. I don't want to be a "player" as I really seek an LTR but as we all know, ya gotta kiss a lot of frogs before you find the princess. This is about expanding the pond of frogs to better the chances of finding the princess.

 

Here's the problem:

 

Whenever I meet someone new, on the initial eye contact, I get something I can only describe as an inner need for approval. I really don't have this on any conscious level but it seems to be stubbornly rooted in my subconscience. It sends a subliminal message of neediness which of course is a total turn-off. Sometimes these demons stay supressed and let the "real me" come out. These are times when I feel on top of the world. When I can be in this mode I can see the other person literally beaming signs of interest. The trick is to be in the right frame of mind so that not only are these demons suppressed, they are non-existent. It's not about trying to be someone I'm not, just a better version of myself.

 

I know there is no magic bullet but any advice about how to be in this frame of mind would be greatly appreciated. To return the generosity of those who offer help I will report back after I complete the "lab" portion of class.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by norcaldivr

taking an active role to improve myself by learning and not being afraid to apply what I learned in the real world is hardly the mark of a loser. That's what winners do when they realize they are deficient in a particular area.

 

ya gotta kiss a lot of frogs before you find the princess. This is about expanding the pond of frogs to better the chances of finding the princess.

 

I like your style

 

Whenever I meet someone new, on the initial eye contact, I get something I can only describe as an inner need for approval.

 

This has *got* to have roots in your childhood. And is gonna have an influence way beyond your dating life. It's good that you're self-aware enough to notice this, but have you thought of seeing a professional therapist? At least for a few sessions to explore why you feel this?

 

A quick and easy solution is to treat all dates as a practise and "let's see how far this goes". Then you will care less. But like I say, this is a deeper issue which may well be affecting other areas of your life...

 

To return the generosity of those who offer help I will report back after I complete the "lab" portion of class.

 

Sounds good to me.

[norcaldivr]

This has *got* to have roots in your childhood. And is gonna have an influence way beyond your dating life. It's good that you're self-aware enough to notice this, but have you thought of seeing a professional therapist? At least for a few sessions to explore why you feel this?

 

There's no doubt about it. Our personalities are formed at an early age. As far as a therapist goes, I generally do not have a high opinion of them. True, they help many people and there are some good ones out there but in my observation most are even more f**ked up than their patients. By being self-aware and confronting problems in one's own mind much more progress is possible in my experience. I wouldn't even know how to go about finding a good therapist. Any ideas here ??? Cost ??? It may be worth a try.

 

A quick and easy solution is to treat all dates as a practise and "let's see how far this goes". Then you will care less. But like I say, this is a deeper issue which may well be affecting other areas of your life...

 

Yes, like my overall shyness it DOES affect other areas of my life. I think your advice would solve the problem if I could only adopt that attitude at a very basic level. This is the approach I take during dating and it works well. If someone goes out with me once there is a high probably that we will get to know each a lot better. If I go on a second date we will usually become intimate in a short time. My problem is getting to that point, to gain this indifferent attitude when first meeting the person.

 

Speaking of that, there is an excellent book called "Stumbling naked in the dark" (that so totally described myself two years ago) that talks about this. It mentions how important an attitude of indifference is. It also has some very good advice called "staying onsides" that explains how this works and applies to relative interest levels. The analogy is that of a football game. Good metaphor, huh ? The idea is that you always want to be below the interest level of the person you are with, hence the term onsides. Looking back to when I rarely even got second dates I can see that was my main problem. At the first sign of interest I would get all giddy and display very high interest levels. This reeks of neediness and desparation. I think this is a very common problem.

 

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by norcaldivr

As far as a therapist goes, I generally do not have a high opinion of them. By being self-aware and confronting problems in one's own mind much more progress is possible in my experience. I wouldn't even know how to go about finding a good therapist. Any ideas here ??? Cost ??? It may be worth a try.

 

My experience of therapy - and that of friends and acquaintances - has been largely positive. Although it does depend on the individual therapist.

 

You can find them through professional associations, your doctor or churches. I have no idea about cost in a North American context.

 

Desperation is bad, but so is lack of interest. If both partners are aiming for an interest level less than the other, the result is predictable You need to be confident enough to be yourself. But easier said than done

[noname]

see if this works...

try not to put so much stake in meeting somebody. i used to be the same way, but i took the pressure out of meeting people and it not only helped my confidence, it took the R out of rejection.

 

you don't have to look at every woman you speak to as a potential LTR. take that expectation out of the mix and you can become a person who merely enjoys conversation. it doesn't mean that you have to let go of you ultimate goal. it just means that you put it on the back-burner until you find the right match.

 

what i did was i started looking at every woman as a potential friend that maybe could work out into something more but whether it did or not didn't matter that much. if it was meant to work out, it would. it allowed me to have casual conversation without pretext and as a result i stessed approval a lot less. i was able to speak casually and rejection or disapproval meant very little because "oh well, i was just making conversation..."

 

even if we hit it off and stayed in contact, i just let it happen naturally and didn't force the issue. and i let them be fully aware that i had no pre-expectations for them and it actually draws them to you in many instances.

 

bottom line is when you you expect or think so much about something before you even start, it can make you nervous or appear nervous even when you are confident. if you are just being yourself, expect nothing, and build your expectations as you progress, it can more comfortable getting to know somebody. don't get me wrong, i am still no "walk accross the room and sweep somebody off their feet" kinda guy (and to tell you the truth, i am comfortable with that and don't feel any pressure to be anything but myself). but if i can make a conversation, i'm able to do it without getting any demons.

 

and trust me EVERY man and woman for that matter has an "inner need for approval" no matter how confident they are. confidence does not mean that you don't want to be accepted. we are social beings and need positive feedback. some of us just have to work a little harder to not let that fear get in the way...

 

if that fails, just make believe you have a girlfriend or your married. women always seem to pick up on that:) just kidding! you ever notice that women are always more interested in you when you are involved with someone? i am trying to figure out whether it is confidence or they can just smell the phermones on you...

[alphamale]

go places you feel comfortable and do things your comfortable with. if you are somewhere or doing something you are not good at or feel out of place with then you'll naturally come off in a more negative light.

 

i.e. try to meet women in settings, times and with activities that you are good at and know a lot about. if it is rock climbing that is great. if it is at the neighborhood pool hall that is great too. wherever and whatever makes u feel good.

[notmakingsense]

I hope the moderators leave this reference posted, but I would serioiusly consider trying this site:

 

http://www.doubleyourdating.com/

 

Sign up for the e-newsletter, then if you get convinced, purchase some of the materials.

 

At first, it looks like a bunch of crap about how to get more dates -- but as you get into it -- it is all about changing your "inner game", your perception of yourself, and a new realization about how interactions with women really work.

 

I've only just started, and have many of the same issues you describe -- so I understand.

 

Good luck!

[norcaldivr]

Originally posted by noname

see if this works...

try not to put so much stake in meeting somebody. i used to be the same way, but i took the pressure out of meeting people and it not only helped my confidence, it took the R out of rejection.

 

you don't have to look at every woman you speak to as a potential LTR. take that expectation out of the mix and you can become a person who merely enjoys conversation. it doesn't mean that you have to let go of you ultimate goal. it just means that you put it on the back-burner until you find the right match.

 

 

I think this is key. By doing this it takes the pressure off hence the need for approval. All I have to do is be able to do this at a subconscience level, no small task.

 

if that fails, just make believe you have a girlfriend or your married. women always seem to pick up on that:) just kidding! you ever notice that women are always more interested in you when you are involved with someone? i am trying to figure out whether it is confidence or they can just smell the phermones on you...

 

I think it is indifference that comes from confidence. I am convinced that indifference , at least for me, is what I need to strive for.

[norcaldivr]

Originally posted by notmakingsense

I hope the moderators leave this reference posted, but I would serioiusly consider trying this site:

 

http://www.doubleyourdating.com/

 

Sign up for the e-newsletter, then if you get convinced, purchase some of the materials.

 

At first, it looks like a bunch of crap about how to get more dates -- but as you get into it -- it is all about changing your "inner game", your perception of yourself, and a new realization about how interactions with women really work.

 

I've only just started, and have many of the same issues you describe -- so I understand.

 

Good luck!

 

I ordered it and YES, it changed many things for me. For the guys who have this stuff come naturally it might seem like a bunch of crap but for guys like me I cannot recommend it enough. It is also reasonably priced if I remember. Less than I would drop on one date.

 

Many parallels with the book "Stumbling naked in the dark". Hmmm, a pattern is beginning to emerge.

[notmakingsense]

Also... on another thread (of mine) ConfusedInOC suggested getting "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover. I just read the synopsis on Amazon -- and it convinced me to purchase. Seems to be right on point.

 

For me, I just hope my needy behavior didn't end things for good with the woman I am currently in the process of losing. In an amazing feat of up-frontedness, she actually told me that she needed someone who is more of a challenge. Felt like a stake in my heart -- but it is what I needed to hear.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by norcaldivr

I bought a self-help book on shyness, read it, and most importantly practiced. It was nothing short of a miracle. Though I can never totally escape my inner roots I have become a different person. This was about twenty years ago.

 

Self help books can do a LOT of good for you as long as the principals apply directly to you and you have the intestinal fortitude to see them through. Congrats to you on recognizing your problem and having the guts to face them head on. God gives us these challenges to make us stronger, not weaker!

 

Whenever I meet someone new, on the initial eye contact, I get something I can only describe as an inner need for approval. I really don't have this on any conscious level but it seems to be stubbornly rooted in my subconscience. It sends a subliminal message of neediness which of course is a total turn-off. Sometimes these demons stay supressed and let the "real me" come out. These are times when I feel on top of the world. When I can be in this mode I can see the other person literally beaming signs of interest. The trick is to be in the right frame of mind so that not only are these demons suppressed, they are non-existent. It's not about trying to be someone I'm not, just a better version of myself.

 

I know there is no magic bullet but any advice about how to be in this frame of mind would be greatly appreciated. To return the generosity of those who offer help I will report back after I complete the "lab" portion of class.

 

What are you showing when you make eye contact? I find that I have to force myself to make eye contact because that part of me is the shy part. Women notice men who can't make eye contact and it's the same, literally, as putting your tail between your legs. My ex loves my eyes and said every time I made significant eye contact with her, she melts. I've had a very sexy VP of HR tell me the same thing. Women love eye contact! It's a sign of confidence.

 

If you are having trouble, PSYCHE YOURSELF UP before you talk to a woman. Make sure you tell yourself "I am worth her time, I am confident, I am strong!" Sounds silly but it does work. Once you do and you make eye contact, as you said before, you can see the connection.

 

Good luck and keep reading those books because "Life is a lesson, you learn it when you're through."

[alphamale]

Originally posted by notmakingsense

For me, I just hope my needy behavior didn't end things for good with the woman I am currently in the process of losing.

Most likely it has N.M.S. The good news is that once you read the book and turn into a "bad boy" literally overnight then you'll plenty of honeys to practice your new found skills upon.

 

In an amazing feat of up-frontedness, she actually told me that she needed someone who is more of a challenge.

anything is easily attainable is worthless. just human nature i guess.

[ConfusedInOC]

Originally posted by notmakingsense

Also... on another thread (of mine) ConfusedInOC suggested getting "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover. I just read the synopsis on Amazon -- and it convinced me to purchase. Seems to be right on point.

 

Congrats. You will definitely learn a LOT from that book as far as your behavior goes and where it was rooted. I wasn't suprised at all until I learned what I was subconciously doing!

 

For me, I just hope my needy behavior didn't end things for good with the woman I am currently in the process of losing. In an amazing feat of up-frontedness, she actually told me that she needed someone who is more of a challenge. Felt like a stake in my heart -- but it is what I needed to hear.

 

And you become that way by having more friends, hobbies and staying busy. Don't ever make her the FOCUS of your life. You should compliment each other but never be the entire focus of your life.

[Marshbear]

RR's advice on not putting to much weight in the initial meeting of women is good advice. A lot of men sit back and spy out that 1 women that catches their fancy and if she dogs them or isn't receptive then their evening is lost. The best advice is to talk to as many women as possible with a " devil may care attitude " and it will help you so much with women you can't believe it. They will wonder about you and THEY will want to get to know you. Everyone enjoys the chase and if you go in with the attitude that you just want to meet them and the outcome is unimportant then you become soooo much more attractive to them.

You don't have to be a player. Just be confident and charming and they will be into you like never before.

 

Peace...

[noname]

Originally posted by norcaldivr

I think it is indifference that comes from confidence. I am convinced that indifference , at least for me, is what I need to strive for.

 

i agree totally, but i wouldn't rule out the pheromones thing. they leave their scent all over us just like any animal...

 

I think this is key. By doing this it takes the pressure off hence the need for approval. All I have to do is be able to do this at a subconscience level, no small task.

 

 

no small task yes... but check it out...

 

you recognize your problem. that's step 1

you want to do something about it. that's step 2

you went and sought out materials that may help. that's step 3

and being mature enough to ask for help from a bunch of guys you don't know. that is like step 20

 

that alone is 4 of the most brave things that any man can do. you are miles ahead of many men who are just like you, who will die not having a clue. try putting that in you subconcious. that should give you confidence enough to take on the world. keep on plugging away. all you need is a little fine tuning...

[norcaldivr]

Well after much ado I finally recieved my copy of "No more Mr. Nice guy" in the mail. As I promised I am reporting back to the group.

 

I have just finished chapter one and all I can say is *wow*. So far that book could be a biography about me. It so closely describes me it's sacry. I look forward to reading on and most importantly applying the steps.

 

I can almost see it:

 

Hi, I'm John and I'm a nice guy

 

[chorus from group]

 

Hi John

 

 

I'll continue to report back but for now I can't say enough good things about the book

[norcaldivr]

Well after much ado I finally recieved my copy of "No more Mr. Nice guy" in the mail. As I promised I am reporting back to the group.

 

I have just finished chapter one and all I can say is *wow*. So far that book could be a biography about me. It so closely describes me it's sacry. I look forward to reading on and most importantly applying the steps.

 

I can almost see it:

 

Hi, I'm John and I'm a nice guy

 

[chorus from group]

 

Hi John

 

 

I'll continue to report back but for now I can't say enough good things about the book

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by norcaldivr

[chorus from group]

 

Hi John

 

Nicely and politely, of course

 

Seriously, good luck with the book. Tell us the key points you learn

[SoleMate]

I actually DO have a magic bullet for that problem of those inner demons. It works great for me and for many others. Here it is:

 

STOP THINKING ABOUT YOURSELF, FOCUS TOTALLY ON OTHER PEOPLE. Don't think about your own feelings, wonder and ask about theirs. Don't wonder whether you're comfortable or confident, help them feel more comfortable. Sure, it takes practice, but I have found that the reduced self-awareness feels so much better, it's an easy habit to get into.

 

Try it, if it works, send me US$20.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by SoleMate

STOP THINKING ABOUT YOURSELF, FOCUS TOTALLY ON OTHER PEOPLE. Don't think about your own feelings, wonder and ask about theirs. Don't wonder whether you're comfortable or confident, help them feel more comfortable.

 

Actually, I think this is part of the problem of nice guy syndrome...