Men "lowering their standards".....

[ThaWholigan]

One of my friends had an old book called "How To Be The Jerk Women Love". And one of the lines in that book struck a chord with me:

 

Most nice guys are desperately running around with an engagement ring in their back pocket, hoping to lock it on the finger of the first woman who treats him like a human being. Read that last sentence again and let it sink in.

Other nice guys have had to lower their standards on what women they desire and just take whatever they can get.

 

 

Now, I don't want to dip too deep into the "nice guy" rhetoric, but this phenomenon is all too clear for me. As always, I keep it unbiased and try not to apply this to myself as there are clear differences between what I am and how I do things compared to other men. When I thought about men lowering their standards, I didn't interpret this as solely dating a woman that they were unattracted to, even though a lot of these guys do this.

 

But in fact, I began to think of all the things that some of these guys put up with from women (I know men are bad to women too, but thats for another thread), and I really thought to myself, could I really put up with that, no matter how desperate I was?? No way, I thought. But why would other men, men I thought had even more character than me.

 

So, I know that people do downplay this stuff, but what is your take? Should these men really lower their standards? Should they date women they are not attracted to? I wouldn't personally, but your thoughts??

 

Also what about alternatives? Why shouldn't they watch porn? What about escorts? Sex therapy/surrogacy?? Why are they so looked down upon as options?

 

In regards to gaining confidence, where do you turn? I use my own personal analysis, I lift some tips from dating/seduction people such as Carlos Xuma, and every now and then some PUA stuff is useful. What would you suggest are their options???

 

Try not to be inflammatory people

[dasein]

People are lazy. I am lazily procrastinating filling out a form I need to send off right this minute while typing this. 99% of the problems men display here with initial dating stages are based on simple quantity deficiency IMO. If they approached dating and meeting women like any other skill, they would understand that you have to practice anything over and over to get good at it. Many guys grow up dedicating countless hours to sports and other hobby practice, then resent the fact that women don't just fall out of the sky into their laps. When you learn to hit a baseball or a golfball, you have to swing at the thing 1000s of times, you can't sit in the dugout or the cart watching and learn how to do it. IMO it has much less to do with lowering standards and more to do with approaching attraction and seduction like any other skill requiring significant practice to master.

[ThaWholigan]

People are lazy. I am lazily procrastinating filling out a form I need to send off right this minute while typing this. 99% of the problems men display here with initial dating stages are based on simple quantity deficiency IMO. If they approached dating and meeting women like any other skill, they would understand that you have to practice anything over and over to get good at it. Many guys grow up dedicating countless hours to sports and other hobby practice, then resent the fact that women don't just fall out of the sky into their laps. When you learn to hit a baseball or a golfball, you have to swing at the thing 1000s of times, you can't sit in the dugout or the cart watching and learn how to do it. IMO it has much less to do with lowering standards and more to do with approaching attraction and seduction like any other skill requiring significant practice to master.

 

I am in agreement. I have had to learn how to effectively socialize with people and dating is one aspect of that. I am trying to get over my anxiety problems and am conscious of the fact that all my problems in this arena are within my control. I feel that men can cultivate these problems, but they don't seem to have the appropriate encouragement to do so, but even then, sometimes there can be no helping them.

 

 

I do admit though that I try to empathize with them, and feel that they are given a raw deal by people even though it is still going to be difficult for them, this is partially why I made this thread. There was a post in the other thread from Elysian Powder that was quite harsh but was actually not far off from truth about average men. Even my mother was saying that she hates the way that men are treated by the women in their lives. So it's not just me.....

[somedude81]

Lower my standards or be alone, those are the only choices.

 

One problem that I keep seeing is, if I could be interested in a woman, it means that other men are as well, so she already has a boyfriend. Or if she's single, it's only because she wants to be.

 

Even fat girls have boyfriends though I have no way to know if her BF lowered his standards for her or if he's actually attracted to rolls...

[dasein]

I am trying to get over my anxiety problems and am conscious of the fact that all my problems in this arena are within my control.

 

The above is great news. You are closer than you realize, once you swing at the ball a bunch of times suddenly each swing doesn't matter so much, that's the next step. Start out small by talking to everyone you see. Go to the mall and walk up and down talking to people standing still. In line at the food court, ask "what's good here?" You will know you have graduated when you can walk up to anyone you see in most any environment and have a conversation. After that, start talking to women, all women, old, young, fat, skinny. You have graduated that when you can talk to any woman in any environment. Then and only then start asking for numbers, but never let that be the whole focus, just a cherry on top of the convo.

 

As far as women sucking and treating men badly, of course they do, most people of either gender aren't quality, are completely self-absorbed and idiots. It simply takes lots of repetition to cull those out.

[ThaWholigan]

Lower my standards or be alone, those are the only choices.

 

One problem that I keep seeing is, if I could be interested in a woman, it means that other men are as well, so she already has a boyfriend. Or if she's single, it's only because she wants to be.

 

Even fat girls have boyfriends though I have no way to know if her BF lowered his standards for her or if he's actually attracted to rolls...

 

As I addressed above, there are things that we can do to at least try and be upbeat. I have made a thread that is defending guys like you, but I will also equally explain that you mustn't be downbeat and give people a reason to **** on you and then **** on yourself. You mentioned you went to a PUA bootcamp, did it work?? I think you would benefit from the Beyond Words program, or the Rob Brinded book "Code of the Natural". Try to be a wordsmith, work on tonality.

 

See, despite being autistic, I have no excuse IMO, I can pick up skills fairly easily and I am tall and (allegedly) good looking. This suggests to me that I can easily attract the kind of woman I want IF I actually put stock into working hard on learning how to be attractive. It's not beyond me.

 

I suspect it's not beyond most of us, despite what is said. Yes you may feel hopeless and some guys shouldn't be chastised for picking porn/escorts as an option when they feel they will never date, but we still should put some work into the right areas IMO.

[grkBoy]

The problem is too many think "coming down to reality" means "lowering your standards".

 

This goes for men and women. In my past, I'd be overlooking average looking girls and only checking out very hot women. The problem with me though was that I didn't think deeply enough on IF those hot women really wanted my bland average self.

 

So I ended up getting friendzoned a lot, rejected a lot, etc. I had a couple of hippos in my past look my way, but I wasn't attracted to them...but I can't say I had no options.

 

I also would not bother with single moms, and even would want a woman who had a college degree and career. Again, if those women are not into someone like me, then obviously I'm chasing impossible standards.

 

"Coming down to reality" means that I OPENED UP MY HORIZONS. I stopped seeing single moms as "no way" and instead looked to each one of them on a case by case basis. I stopped thinking I could snag some 9 or 10 in a tight mini-dress dancing at the clubs...and went for average women...even finding them more genuine and cooler than the shallow hotties.

 

The problem is some would claim I settled...even a few think I settled on my fiance...but it's amazing how those few people are alone, and can't find anyone. Mainly because their standard would never look their way.

 

The only thing I ever tell Average Joes and "nice guys" is to make sure you didn't set the bar too high. Yes, a hot girl with a size 2 body and big boobs is always appealing...but pointless if women like that will never be into you. What about the size 6 or 8 body who doesn't look like a "before" photo for Jenny Craig? How about the girl who doesn't have a flawless face and hair? She might have a big nose.

 

 

Now...I'm sure you'll then say "what about the women? why can't they lower their standards?"

 

My answer is they should "come down to reality" if their standards aren't gaining them options. Look at the ones who are constantly single and/or getting into flings with jerks they hope to tame into husbands. This is the price they pay for keeping the bar too high. I've seen guys who bang the hot cocktail waitress and toy with her until they meet the hot-looking educated woman with the brains and body...and then the cocktail waitress wonders why she's not "marriage worthy" in the eyes of these guys.

 

The answer is she set the bar too high.

 

Same thing with the nice guys.

[AD1980]

Im 31 and never been with a women yet id stil rather be alone the rest of my life which is what will probably happen then be with someone i have no interest in or somebody who mistreats me but im with just to have someone..

 

While i dont think i have really high standards i at least have to be somewhat physically and mentally attracted to the women..ill never waiver on those..

 

At the same time if i do meet a women who fills those i understand that i may not be able to afford to be as picky at certian flaws as guys who get women and dates easily..if it took 31 years to get one date who knows how long til the net one..

 

That's the advantage men qwho get women and with options have..they can filter through a lot of women till they find a good one..a man who cant get women doesnt have as many options to find that special one if any at all..

[azsinglegal]

I think "lowering your standards" might be a bad phrase. How about changing what "you want" to what "you need" instead?

 

For example, you WANT a girl that's thin and hot. But what you NEED is a woman who respects you. They might not be one and the same.

 

Same goes for women. I WANT a guy who's 6' tall. But what I NEED is a guy who encourages me and is supportive. That guy currently comes in a 5'6" package. Am I complaining? Nope, because I've altered my perspective to my NEEDS and not my WANTS.

 

So maybe instead of looking at things as "lowering your standards" look at is as "altering your perspective"?

[ThaWholigan]

The problem is too many think "coming down to reality" means "lowering your standards".

 

This goes for men and women. In my past, I'd be overlooking average looking girls and only checking out very hot women. The problem with me though was that I didn't think deeply enough on IF those hot women really wanted my bland average self.

 

So I ended up getting friendzoned a lot, rejected a lot, etc. I had a couple of hippos in my past look my way, but I wasn't attracted to them...but I can't say I had no options.

 

I also would not bother with single moms, and even would want a woman who had a college degree and career. Again, if those women are not into someone like me, then obviously I'm chasing impossible standards.

 

"Coming down to reality" means that I OPENED UP MY HORIZONS. I stopped seeing single moms as "no way" and instead looked to each one of them on a case by case basis. I stopped thinking I could snag some 9 or 10 in a tight mini-dress dancing at the clubs...and went for average women...even finding them more genuine and cooler than the shallow hotties.

 

The problem is some would claim I settled...even a few think I settled on my fiance...but it's amazing how those few people are alone, and can't find anyone. Mainly because their standard would never look their way.

 

The only thing I ever tell Average Joes and "nice guys" is to make sure you didn't set the bar too high. Yes, a hot girl with a size 2 body and big boobs is always appealing...but pointless if women like that will never be into you. What about the size 6 or 8 body who doesn't look like a "before" photo for Jenny Craig? How about the girl who doesn't have a flawless face and hair? She might have a big nose.

 

 

Now...I'm sure you'll then say "what about the women? why can't they lower their standards?"

 

My answer is they should "come down to reality" if their standards aren't gaining them options. Look at the ones who are constantly single and/or getting into flings with jerks they hope to tame into husbands. This is the price they pay for keeping the bar too high. I've seen guys who bang the hot cocktail waitress and toy with her until they meet the hot-looking educated woman with the brains and body...and then the cocktail waitress wonders why she's not "marriage worthy" in the eyes of these guys.

 

The answer is she set the bar too high.

 

Same thing with the nice guys.

 

Oh I think that certainly is the case with a lot of people, where they have conditioned themselves to be attracted to a very small section of people.

 

Personally, I meet a lot of women I find attractive, it is broad for me. I think it is balance. I'm not trying to get super-hotty, but at the same time, I don't want someone I have no attraction too. Not just physically but mentally.

[ThaWholigan]

I think "lowering your standards" might be a bad phrase. How about changing what "you want" to what "you need" instead?

 

For example, you WANT a girl that's thin and hot. But what you NEED is a woman who respects you. They might not be one and the same.

 

Same goes for women. I WANT a guy who's 6' tall. But what I NEED is a guy who encourages me and is supportive. That guy currently comes in a 5'6" package. Am I complaining? Nope, because I've altered my perspective to my NEEDS and not my WANTS.

 

So maybe instead of looking at things as "lowering your standards" look at is as "altering your perspective"?

 

Honestly, I'm not really attracted to "thin" girls. I like them to at least be a bit bigger, not huge but just not skinny. Slim is nice.

 

I have quite a broad perspective in what I find attractive, I don't feel I have a narrow view when it comes to women....

[azsinglegal]

Honestly, I'm not really attracted to "thin" girls. I like them to at least be a bit bigger, not huge but just not skinny. Slim is nice.

 

I have quite a broad perspective in what I find attractive, I don't feel I have a narrow view when it comes to women....

 

That was just an example of WANTS vs NEEDS.

[Disillusioned]

If a man lowers his standards, then it's very likely he won't be totally happy with the first woman he nabs.

 

Just ask any divorced man.

[jobaba]

I think if you have limited to no dating experience, and have been marginalized by the dating game, you take what you can get.

 

Build up some experience and learn the pitfalls and ins and outs of dating. What is going to happen when a 33 year old man who has never had a relationship, dated, or slept with a woman meets a woman who is up to his standards and he falls gaga for her?

 

She's going to find out he's a 33 year old virgin, with virtually no dating experience and probably be scared off.

 

Each woman you date changes and refines your standards, so don't wait for the pretty little girl who shares your sense of obscure sense of humor for BBC comedies.

 

Marriage is a different story.

[mortensorchid]

I have had a lot of conflict about this issue myself. I think people do lower their standards for others. There are all kind of reasons they do. It's different for men and women, but I think you must have things boil down to one thing : What do you want to put up with because no one is perfect?

 

If he won't part with his childhood baseball card collection, lets laundry and dishes pile up, and belches a lot, that's not something to complain about. If he's a complete Alpha Male who is always out drinking, screaming at others, getting into crazy shenanigans, and flirting with other women, then it's not what you need nor want.

[verhrzn]

The problem is too many think "coming down to reality" means "lowering your standards".

 

 

The problem is some would claim I settled...even a few think I settled on my fiance...but it's amazing how those few people are alone, and can't find anyone. Mainly because their standard would never look their way.

 

The only thing I ever tell Average Joes and "nice guys" is to make sure you didn't set the bar too high. Yes, a hot girl with a size 2 body and big boobs is always appealing...but pointless if women like that will never be into you. What about the size 6 or 8 body who doesn't look like a "before" photo for Jenny Craig? How about the girl who doesn't have a flawless face and hair? She might have a big nose.

 

Now...I'm sure you'll then say "what about the women? why can't they lower their standards?"

 

My answer is they should "come down to reality" if their standards aren't gaining them options. Look at the ones who are constantly single and/or getting into flings with jerks they hope to tame into husbands. This is the price they pay for keeping the bar too high. I've seen guys who bang the hot cocktail waitress and toy with her until they meet the hot-looking educated woman with the brains and body...and then the cocktail waitress wonders why she's not "marriage worthy" in the eyes of these guys.

 

The answer is she set the bar too high.

 

Same thing with the nice guys.

 

I've seen pictures of your fiancee, and I don't think you settled at all. She is a very attractive lady. I think, and this is the ironic part of attraction, that once you "opened your horizons" to reality, and evaluated women based on more than just their looks, but whether they were actually a good fit for you on a case by case basis, you ended up with someone that was both attractive AND a good fit.

 

I don't necessarily agree that women need to "come down to reality." Some certainly do.... but in my conversations with both men and women, it seems women are a lot more willing to give ground on requirements if the guy treats them like a prince and isn't creepy.

 

But then again, the women I know who have realistic standards and still can't find a guy are girls who aren't that good looking. They really CAN'T lower their standards much further without dating the unemployed guy who never finished college and lives in his parents' basement.

[thatone]

honestly, the people hung up on physical attraction have it easier. you can change your physical appearance if you work hard enough at it (short of altering height, pun intended).

 

mental capacity isn't going to change. and nothing is more un-attractive to me than lesser mental capacity. i want my intellectual equal, complete with equally open mind about religion, literature, music, the whole 9.

 

i don't have a list of physical traits that i MUST have. if she's reasonably average and has the mental aspects and comparable personality, i'm hooked.

 

where are the women who also can debate shakespeare with tool playing in the background ? who can talk about texas blues and architectural details at the same time? or at least similar?

 

physical attractiveness is easy to find, there are plenty of women every time i step into a bar that are physically attractive, the problem is i rarely give half a sh*t about what any of them have to say . and after sex conversation is a very close second, in fact sometimes it's first, sex is a given.

[ChessPieceFace]

People are lazy. I am lazily procrastinating filling out a form I need to send off right this minute while typing this. 99% of the problems men display here with initial dating stages are based on simple quantity deficiency IMO. If they approached dating and meeting women like any other skill, they would understand that you have to practice anything over and over to get good at it. Many guys grow up dedicating countless hours to sports and other hobby practice, then resent the fact that women don't just fall out of the sky into their laps. When you learn to hit a baseball or a golfball, you have to swing at the thing 1000s of times, you can't sit in the dugout or the cart watching and learn how to do it.

 

Excuse me but you forgot the important differences. Dating shouldn't be a hobby, since that would be unnatural - you don't do it until your late teens (or later), then you have it as your "hobby" until you meet the "right person", and then you have to quit forever? That is not rational.

 

But more importantly - failing at it and/or meeting 1000 people who are wrong for you isn't fun. Conversely, learning golf or baseball IS fun for a lot of people. And I also know a lot of people who tried golf and hated it. Thankfully they are not forced by society to golf, or feel that there is something wrong with them for not doing it. I've made this point before. What if you lived in a world where EVERYONE had to play chess and get good at chess to supposedly have a fulfilling life, according to everyone else? And you !^@$ing hated chess. And you weren't good at it. That's the world we are living in, except it's dating and not chess. And in dating, men are already missing their queen and a rook, at least...

[dasein]

Excuse me but you forgot the important differences. Dating shouldn't be a hobby, since that would be unnatural - you don't do it until your late teens (or later), then you have it as your "hobby" until you meet the "right person", and then you have to quit forever? That is not rational.

 

Having success with the opposite sex is a skill, very few are naturals at it, and as far as comparing it to sports and hobbies, the purpose of the analogy, to suggest that it takes effort to get what you want in life, stands.

 

But more importantly - failing at it and/or meeting 1000 people who are wrong for you isn't fun.

 

Nor was striking out in t-ball fun (I did that actually when 7-8). Most guys who are complaining about it aren't even taking the basic steps to start to make the process of learning how to attract women fun. It doesn't take that long to start getting enjoyment from it. Learning a foreign language isn't fun either at the start when you know nothing, but once you start to put some sentences together, it gets more fun quickly.

 

I don't disagree with being down a rook where male and female experience of dating is concerned, rook and queen is a bit much, that would be a 5' tall 300 lb guy with a mohawk and a Justin Beiber t-shirt, and I doubt anyone here is in that situation. Whatever the handicap, it's just a given reality to be perceived as a challenge or an excuse.

[grkBoy]

I've seen pictures of your fiancee, and I don't think you settled at all. She is a very attractive lady. I think, and this is the ironic part of attraction, that once you "opened your horizons" to reality, and evaluated women based on more than just their looks, but whether they were actually a good fit for you on a case by case basis, you ended up with someone that was both attractive AND a good fit.

 

Believe me...the only "settling" I did was "settling down".

 

The few folks I know who claimed I "settled" are the ones still single and hoping for an impossible standard. Thus I don't take them seriously.

 

I don't necessarily agree that women need to "come down to reality." Some certainly do.... but in my conversations with both men and women, it seems women are a lot more willing to give ground on requirements if the guy treats them like a prince and isn't creepy.

 

Well...I was mainly thinking of the women who keep hoping for a guy that looks like Bradley Cooper, parties like a rockstar, and yet will give up easy sex with women every week to marry them.

 

You and your friends IMHO are not being unrealistic in what you want.

 

But then again, the women I know who have realistic standards and still can't find a guy are girls who aren't that good looking. They really CAN'T lower their standards much further without dating the unemployed guy who never finished college and lives in his parents' basement.

 

I hear you. Based on our own personal talks...the problem in your area is the men. It's not like you're hoping for some perfect 10 millionaire...but apparently the guys who do come calling are creepy or flaky. I wouldn't tell a guy to give the creepy/flaky girl a chance...nor will I tell you that.

 

The standards thing isn't the only problem, but part of it. I think also that commitment and such have become "outdated" in the eyes of many.

 

I still also think the media plays a bad role is keeping everyone believing there are fashion models around every corner for everyone.

[El Brujo]

The standards thing isn't the only problem, but part of it. I think also that commitment and such have become "outdated" in the eyes of many.

 

Yes, but only because people with access to the media keep telling us it is.

 

Personally, I'll always think the aversion to commitment, bad-mouthing virgins, and all that, just sounds selfish and sleazy, and there's no way to pretty it up and make me respect it.

 

In other words, you can't polish a turd.

 

I still also think the media plays a bad role is keeping everyone believing there are fashion models around every corner for everyone.

 

Yes, well... they've also convinced me there are a few guys out there who have long scraggly hair and say "dude" a lot, who are out there doing most of the hookups and then spreading the gospel about it.

[ThaWholigan]

I think the best thing that men can do personally is work on self-improvement, solidify their character, their masculinity, physical fitness & attractiveness, intelligence/knowledge/wisdom, and generally have a greater understanding of their emotions and thus, control them.

 

They will then find it easier to live life and date women IMO.

 

And as for height.......doesn't matter. My 5 foot 6 younger brother pulls girls like crazy .

[somedude81]

I think the best thing that men can do personally is work on self-improvement, solidify their character, their masculinity, physical fitness & attractiveness, intelligence/knowledge/wisdom, and generally have a greater understanding of their emotions and thus, control them.

 

They will then find it easier to live life and date women IMO.

 

And as for height.......doesn't matter. My 5 foot 6 younger brother pulls girls like crazy .

Any chance that he's very outgoing?

[ThaWholigan]

Any chance that he's very outgoing?

 

Of course......you know, even if your an introvert, it helps to have a much more balanced stance on socializing. It will make things easier. I was never much of a social being until I went to College/Uni. I've changed a lot since then and now I have a much better time relating and talking to people.

 

I know I have the ability to make friends with anyone, and also I have the capacity to attract girls provided my mentality is augmented and my life is brought to a place where I feel it needs to be.

 

The point is, I'm optimistic. I always maintain a healthy positivity about things. So I know I can improve and get to point in my life where I am in control of my destiny.

[Wolf18]

American women are like diamonds... Their high value is completely artificial

 

It's interesting to contrast how in America the men are always better looking than women in couples (unless the man has a lot of money), men seem to put in as much effort as women into their appearance, and quite a bit more effort into building their status/money. Yet if you look at couples from places like Serbia or Bulgaria ( a quick facebook search, trust me) you'll see these gorgeous and intelligent women who cook and clean dating some guy who drinks all his money away, is missing teeth and wears those tacky striped Adidas sweatpants everywhere, a lot of times the men even cheat

 

In America girls don't think I'm good enough no matter how much I have to offer, but in other countries I'm hot just for bathing and having all my teeth!! Haw Haw haw.

 

All the men of LS ought to take a group trip to one of those countries, just to get your dong moist and see that there is light at the end of the tunnel if you just leave America.