Decimated Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 I am looking for insight from CS's but I will listen any thoughts you may have. The main obstacle in my marriage recovery still seems to be my wife's inability to talk about her affair. I feel the rest of our recovery is going OK. We seem to be able to talk about everything else but this. I feel it is important for me to hear it from her…in her words, what happened and why it happened. The vast majority of what I know about her affair I learned from my detective work and the OM's wife. Over the last 6 months she has gave me bits and pieces...like a puzzle that I have to put together. She still seems to shut down whenever I bring it up and I will get very little. Her mood completely changes and suddenly she can't seem to look me in the eyes. She has said "Why do you want to know" and "Why can't you just forget it". My story aside, here are some general questions I have: Is this common for some CS's not to want to discuss their affair after the BS already knows most of the story? Why is this so hard for them to talk about? Are they afraid of making things worse if they talk about it? Could it be shame or embarrassment that prevents her from talking about it? Is this a compartmentalization of the affair? Could they be trying to forget what they did…suppressing it or some type of personal denial? Should they be given an ultimatum/time limit, to discuss this? Does a BS really need to hear this from the CS or is it possible to move forward in marriage recovery without it? Should we let this get in the way of our recovery?
Owl Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Lots of questions here. First off...it's not unusual that they try to deny/minimize/avoid anything to do with the affair. Let's face it...they committed a pretty horrible deed by most people's standards. It's no fun getting your nose rubbed in the poo you left on the floor. So not surprising that many try to get out of having to face that directly, head on. Is it required for them to do so? It depends a lot on the marriage and the people involved. In order for my marriage to reconcile, in order for me to truly forgive her, I had to completely understand what happened...what it was I was expected to forgive. Others don't have the same requirements that I did...but some do. You have to decide what it is YOU need in order to forgive. Another large part of this is that telling the truth NOW about what happened is one way that the cheating spouse can begin to rebuild trust..."at least they're being honest NOW". But if they're not willing to be honest and up front about what happened...how can you truly trust that they'll be honest with you about anything else that they're uncomfortable with in the future????? If she won't disclose the truth about the affair...how can you ever trust her again? That's something you have to decide.
analystfromhell Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 Part of it may be a lingering worry over what you intend to do with the information. If for instance, she is concerned that you might use the information against her in a divorce or other proceeding then there's a rational reason for her not wanting to disclose. It's very embarrassing obviously but that's an emotional response. Do you have an idea where her reluctance comes from? Do you think she understands and fully acknowledges her reluctance?
Author Decimated Posted August 30, 2011 Author Posted August 30, 2011 (edited) She is a classic conflict avoider. She internalizes her feelings…that is what got us into this mess to begin with. She can also be stubborn and selfish. I'm not sure if she actually understands her own reluctance to talk about it. I have many months of messages between her and the OM from during their affair. The OM's wife sent them to me…painful stuff all in chronological order. It does give me a window into their affair with perhaps too much detail…certainly more than I wanted to know. My point is that I already know a lot. All I am asking her for is the 1000 foot view and why she did it. She knows I already have all of the ammo would need if my goal was recrimination. She has told me that she feels ashamed for who she became during her affair. She even said that she was one of those people who hated cheating. She is afraid that our children or relatives or will find out. I am speculating that shame and even embarrassment has a lot to do with it. She cannot look at me when it I try to talk about it…no eye contact. It is very noticeable…like flipping a switch. She just stares at the floor sometimes she looks agitated. I think she wants to just forget it ever happened or at least wants me to forget it ever happened…compartmentalization? She has asked "why I want to know" and also "why can't I just forget it". I have also noticed that when I try to talk about it she becomes distant until the next day. It seems to drive her away emotionally. Usually the next day she is back to normal but she hold back and waits for me to make the first move in terms of conversation and affection. I need to hear, in her words, what happened and why. This will help me to trust her again. Maybe it will help me to understand. She is doing a lot of things right to regain my trust but I feel this is very important. I think hearing herself tell the story maybe she will realize something about herself and take ownership for her actions in some way. It could be like stripping down and looking in a mirror. You can't hide and you are forced to see all of your flaws and acknowledge them. Also, not hearing this from her is causing me to be reluctant to give 100% to our recovery because I feel, with her lack of admission, she is not as well. Edited August 30, 2011 by Decimated 1
whichwayisup Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 It's like she just can't be open and honest, put herself in your shoes, understand the pain and heartache you went through, how your trust and faith in her shook you, turned life upside down. Either she can't or won't own what she did because then she's vunerable and open to pain (which is something she doesn't want to feel or be responsible for, even though SHE created this mess), her pain and yours.. Or, she's just extremely selfish and has narcissistic traits. To hope that you will forget and sweep it under the rug and get over it is ridculous thinking on her behalf. She needs to do counselling.. On her own and with you (marriage counselling) so you two can rebuild and make the marriage better. She needs to work on herself, but I think she's scared of feeling and dealing with what went on inside her, the choices she made and the fallout.
Author Decimated Posted August 30, 2011 Author Posted August 30, 2011 It's like she just can't be open and honest, put herself in your shoes, understand the pain and heartache you went through, how your trust and faith in her shook you, turned life upside down. Either she can't or won't own what she did because then she's vunerable and open to pain (which is something she doesn't want to feel or be responsible for, even though SHE created this mess), her pain and yours.. Or, she's just extremely selfish and has narcissistic traits. To hope that you will forget and sweep it under the rug and get over it is ridiculous thinking on her behalf. She needs to do counseling.. On her own and with you (marriage counseling) so you two can rebuild and make the marriage better. She needs to work on herself, but I think she's scared of feeling and dealing with what went on inside her, the choices she made and the fallout. She does say she understands the magnitude of what she did and how I feel as a result but doesn't expand on that. I believe she is selfish and may have some narcissistic traits. I have told her that I also need to hear the "What" and "Why" and need to see remorse, regret for her actions in order for me to forgive her completely. I agree, she needs to do IC to sort things out within her self. After that, we can do MC. Also, she does not seem to trust Therapists. She says she doesn't want someone else putting ideas in her head or judging her. I feel there are many factors that are involved in her decision to have an affair.She has admitted to some of them Death of her parents 4 months apart…both died in there 50's…young. She say's she started thinking about mortality. Her parents were divorced because her father was an alcoholic and had several affairs. Her mother put up with his **** for many years before divorcing him. She was real close to her mother but not that close to her father. Although towards the end she tried to be. He was much like her…conflict avoider and internalized emotion. She was approaching 40 years old Loss of friends Kids in school full time Dead end job Premenopausal Too much spare time Plenty of my money to spend Our 12 year old marriage possibly became too routine (child centric) but seemingly happy.
SoulStorm Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 If she can't face it and accept why she did it, she will be a prime candidate to do it again...despite if she says she won't. You can't bury your head in the sand with this kind of tragic circumstance. you must face it, own it and fix it or it will come back again.
Afishwithabike Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 I don't have first hand knowledge about infidelity, but after seeing several close friends betrayed by their spouses, I started reading and researching. Full disclosure is necessary for the betrayed partner to heal. I read this on another forum and it stuck with me. Maybe it will help you. Maybe you could share it with your wife so she understands why you need to know the details. I'm paraphrasing what I read but imagine a police office knocked on your door this evening. He stands there with a large briefcase in his hand. He looks at you sadly and informs you that your mother was murdered. You're stunned. When you finally recover your ability to speak, you say "What? How? I don't understand. Tell me more." The cop says "It doesn't matter. All you need to know is that she's dead." You say "Did she suffer? How did she die? How did the perpetrator find her? What did he do to her?" The police officer looks sadly at you and says "I have all those details in this briefcase. You don't need to know that information. It's just going to cause you more pain. You're going to cry and be upset. All you need to know is that your mother was murdered." Now how would you really want a police offier to act in that situation. Your wife is the cop and her memory of the events is the briefcase.
Bittersweetie Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 I am a fWW. Immediately after d-day, I was reluctant to share details with my H. I was ashamed. I didn't want to hurt him any more than I already had. Other selfish reasons. Finally I shared the whole thing, the whole truth, all of it. Whenever he asked a question, I was able to answer it fully and truly. And to be honest, I don't think our reconciliation really started until that happened. Also, immediately after d-day, I didn't have all the answers to why I did it. I had high-level answers, but it took time, introspection, and IC to really get down to the real reasons. When I would talk with my H and share, he would push me further. I am glad he pushed because it has helped me, and helped us. Some of those reasons you listed...they seem more high level. IMO, she needs to "peel the onion" to really get at why she would do such a painful thing. And the right therapist won't "put an idea in her head," they'll guide her, ask the right questions. It may take a couple of tries to find the right one; the first therapist my H went to was not a good match at all. But the second really helped him. Just keep looking.
wheelwright Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 A lot of thought processes for both BS and WS post DDay rest on the premise that the A was totally wrong. I am not saying there are not wrong elements, but in that time and place it seemed right to your W. This creates a psychic split for the WS which is extremely hard to confront. Post A thinking tends to de-contextualise the A, and view it only within the context of the post DDay M. This is harsh on the WS, who still has a full understanding of the context of the A which seemed right at the time. WS knows that explaining that to BS will result in PAIN and perceived justification. You know the details, and your WS has a conflicting set of contexts which you want resolved. Just be thankful that your WS has accepted the post DDay view of things as the 'correct one'. I didn't, and I put my xBH through hell as a result. The problem is, if your WS explains all, she will be justifying the A. That was the context she worked with at the time. But you already know that, don't you? Why ask?
dreamingoftigers Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 My husband is the same way. Refuses to give details or talk about them. It has eaten away at the remaining fabric of our marriage. He claims that I nag at him about it like I am his mother. I don't give him enough space and that he will never address it and just wants to drop it. Bringing up anything about it is "bashing him." I don't know what else to say, but I empathize with you. It hurts like Hell. Good luck.
Owl Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 I'm going to disagree with WW on this one. Don't "be glad" for anything less than what you REQUIRE in order for reconciliation and recovery to take place. My wife had to be willing to discuss what happened, what led to it, and what we could do to help work things out between us...or we quite simply would not have been able to recover. From my perspective...if they won't be honest...there's no rebuilding of trust...there's no recovery. It's that point blank to me.
Spark1111 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 It is a process that requires a lot of courage, introspection and the ability, often painful, to confront conflict head-on and communicate it. No easy task for someone who cheats, since cheaters tend to AVOID conflict, poorly identify and communicate unmet needs, and have the courage to go to painful areas of self-introspection. Guilt is easy and often self-serving. Remorse, which is having a true understanding of the pain your deliberate actions inflicted on others, is much, much harder for a WS. Problem is, we weren't a blip on the radar during the affair. Being forced to go back and examine every action is often too much to bear for too long when you see the pain in your BS's face. She needs IC to find out why she did what she did. Obviously, she experienced many stressors prior and during it. But what we BS need to know is HOW and WHY she/he ever thought something as selfish and destructive as an affair would ever solve those problems or was an acceptible means of coping with life's stressors? In her particular case, a good IC will get her back to her FOO (family of origin) issues. Daddy not love her enough? Mommy took Daddy back over and over again with no consequences? Was it a household where everyone kept secrets to spare other's pain or avoid conflict? The more I learn, the more I come down solidly that most affairs have NOTHING to do with love for a spouse. They have to do with what is lacking within the cheater. But as a spouse, unless the cheater works very hard to self-fill what they lack, restoring trust and RESPECT is a very difficult to obtain.
Spark1111 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 A lot of thought processes for both BS and WS post DDay rest on the premise that the A was totally wrong. I am not saying there are not wrong elements, but in that time and place it seemed right to your W. This creates a psychic split for the WS which is extremely hard to confront. Post A thinking tends to de-contextualise the A, and view it only within the context of the post DDay M. This is harsh on the WS, who still has a full understanding of the context of the A which seemed right at the time. WS knows that explaining that to BS will result in PAIN and perceived justification. You know the details, and your WS has a conflicting set of contexts which you want resolved. Just be thankful that your WS has accepted the post DDay view of things as the 'correct one'. I didn't, and I put my xBH through hell as a result. The problem is, if your WS explains all, she will be justifying the A. That was the context she worked with at the time. But you already know that, don't you? Why ask? Because the justifictions make us feel less secure, not more secure. If you return to the marriage justifying your affair, you should not remain married. That demonstrates you have no remorse. Imagine if your xMM was loving another while with you. You find out, and then he justifies it. What does that say to you about the love you thought you had? Wouldn't you have questions for him?
Snowflower Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 If she can't face it and accept why she did it, she will be a prime candidate to do it again...despite if she says she won't. You can't bury your head in the sand with this kind of tragic circumstance. you must face it, own it and fix it or it will come back again. I agree 1000% IMHO, many WS and BS handle their reconciliation this way. The WS says they are sorry (and probably really do mean it) and the BS is so relieved to have their life return to normal and their spouse back that the affair is swept under the rug. Meanwhile, the affair still sits there smoldering between them. Never really discussed because it is too uncomfortable for the WS (too bad) and the BS doesn't want to stir the pot. More conflict avoidance from both partners. And it's very likely that another affair will occur in the future because nothing was solved in this situation. OP, don't let this be your situation.
sadcalifornian Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 She may realize the magnitude of what she has done and be remorseful, but she is still being too selfish to realize that your needs come first before her embarassment and shame. Of course, she wants to forget and live on as if it never happened. That is her wishful thinking. How many times in our lives, we all have such moment. She must learn that this is a part of the consequence of her A. It is not only what you need, but also something she needs to confront herself on her action and learn from it. Letting her act this way is not productive not only for you and herself. You say she is conflict avoider, and I can understand that. However, this is one act that she cannot run away from and pretend all is well, just because she ended it. Maybe the right MC may help her realize this. At any rate, she must confront this. There is no other way. And, you certainly should not let her get away with it.
nyrias2 Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 It is not only what you need, but also something she needs to confront herself on her action and learn from it. Letting her act this way is not productive not only for you and herself. You say she is conflict avoider, and I can understand that. However, this is one act that she cannot run away from and pretend all is well, just because she ended it. Maybe the right MC may help her realize this. At any rate, she must confront this. There is no other way. And, you certainly should not let her get away with it. "And, you certainly should not let her get away with it" .. this is the most important sentence in the post. Of course the WS *can* avoid it if the BS let him or her. And of course, there is always a possibility that if the BS pushes, the marriage will fall apart. So there are three scenarios: 1) BS let it go, no true recovery, but the parties stay together. 2) BS pushes it, true recovery, marriage reconciled. 3) BS pushes it, WS cannot take it, the parties split. Most here are advocating (2)/(3) ... but I think some BS may prefer (1) depends on factors like economics, children, status in society, and many other things. I do NOT believe all BS want true recovery. Some just want to stay together for other reasons.
wheelwright Posted August 31, 2011 Posted August 31, 2011 Because the justifictions make us feel less secure, not more secure. If you return to the marriage justifying your affair, you should not remain married. That demonstrates you have no remorse. Imagine if your xMM was loving another while with you. You find out, and then he justifies it. What does that say to you about the love you thought you had? Wouldn't you have questions for him? TBH Spark, questions for xMOM no longer required. He snogged an 18-year-old immediately after the A. If he had been doing this throughout and I found out now, I would shrug. I did not discuss remorse in my post. But this is part of the post-DDay picture. However strong the feelings of a WS for OP, they will feel remorse on being presented with BS's pain. This is obvious to me. I am just drawing attention to this (largely unforseen by APs) painful consequence of a love A. There are two contexts in the mind of the WS - and one is the pre-DDay one. Some hate themselves, some do a 180 re the AP, some remain split. None of these happen without a reckoning in the psyche of the WS. DDay is well named.
Memphis Raines Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 I am looking for insight from CS's but I will listen any thoughts you may have. The main obstacle in my marriage recovery still seems to be my wife's inability to talk about her affair. could be she doesn't want to talk about something humiliating. how many people would really want to talk about how they are a cheating POC?
drifter777 Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 According to my WW, she hated to talk about it and demanded I "get over it" and not live in the past. She held on to the idea that she was sorry it hurt me but she learned some valuable lessons. She now freely admits she avoided talking about it because she was ashamed of what she did and didn't want to face the fact that she was a cheater. She believes cheating is something only a "bad" person would do and she couldn't accept she was a bad person.
silktricks Posted September 7, 2011 Posted September 7, 2011 I am looking for insight from CS's but I will listen any thoughts you may have. The main obstacle in my marriage recovery still seems to be my wife's inability to talk about her affair. I feel the rest of our recovery is going OK. We seem to be able to talk about everything else but this. I feel it is important for me to hear it from her…in her words, what happened and why it happened. The vast majority of what I know about her affair I learned from my detective work and the OM's wife. Over the last 6 months she has gave me bits and pieces...like a puzzle that I have to put together. She still seems to shut down whenever I bring it up and I will get very little. Her mood completely changes and suddenly she can't seem to look me in the eyes. She has said "Why do you want to know" and "Why can't you just forget it". My story aside, here are some general questions I have: I haven't read this thread, so am probably repeating what others have already said. However: Is this common for some CS's not to want to discuss their affair after the BS already knows most of the story? I think it's probable that very FEW CS wish to discuss their affair with their BS - most especially if they want to stay married. Why is this so hard for them to talk about? They are ashamed. They want it to "go away". They want everything to be "the way it used to be" (even though they were obviously unhappy with things the way they "used to be" or they wouldn't have had the affair in the first place). . They don't want to be the "bad" guy. Are they afraid of making things worse if they talk about it? Yes Could it be shame or embarrassment that prevents her from talking about it? Absolutely!!! Is this a compartmentalization of the affair? I don't believe in compartmentalization, so cannot speak to this. Could they be trying to forget what they did…suppressing it or some type of personal denial? For the most part they want to forget it happened, like it was really some kind of a bad dream that they didn't have any control over. Should they be given an ultimatum/time limit, to discuss this? My opinion - if you really want to recover the marriage, you cannot let them cover over what happened. It will drive you crazy and doom any possibility that the marriage can be a good and happy one. But you need to be fully aware of the fact that the CS may not be able to handle the discussion and may opt out. I personally was not willing to have a half marriage, so I pushed relentlessly until everything was exposed and/or I reached a place of peace within myself. Does a BS really need to hear this from the CS or is it possible to move forward in marriage recovery without it? It probably depends upon the BS. I really needed to hear it all from his mouth, and was not able to progress whenever I heard the "I don't remember" line. Should we let this get in the way of our recovery? No one can answer this but you. Does it get in the way of your recovery? If the answer is "Yes", then you have no choice, as the recovery of your marriage depends upon your own personal recovery, and your spouse's personal recovery as well. You cannot have a healthy marriage made up of unhealthy people.
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