change Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 I never wanted to find myself here. But then again, I doubt anyone on this section of the LS forums wanted that. I'm going to attempt to keep this post short and readable. If anyone has more questions or wants clarification, I'd be happy to provide additional answers. My wife asked for a divorce/separation after almost seven years last week. We have not seen each other in person since, but we are meeting this weekend to talk and for her to come by and pick up some of her stuff. (When she left, it was just with a suitcase.) The why of the divorce is fairly simple. I've been very depressed over the last two/three years. I was in denial about my problems and in the selfishness of the depression and the deep darkness I was lost in... I neglected her. I didn't show her how much I cared. I wasn't supportive enough. I lost the ability to be physically intimate. She felt unattractive and unwanted in what became a sexless marriage. And I was deeply in denial and completely unwilling to seek therapy. When she left, I hit bottom. Rock bottom. And I was shocked to look around and see where my life was. The first thing I did the following day was to call and make an appointment with a counselor. Obviously a week and a half isn't a long period of time, but I can say firmly that I'm looking my issues straight in the eye and making substantive change. Change I was not brave enough or coherent enough to make before. I finally see the light at the end of the tunnel. In acknowledging my issues and beginning to work on them, I'm feeling hopeful for the first time in a long while. I see my future. I see our future again. Here's the matter in terms of the relationship: She said that she doesn't want to work on it. Doesn't want to seek marriage counseling. It's "too late." However, we've talked by phone a number of times since the break up and now our communication is back to the gem it was when we first got together. We're sharing again. We're tentative, but I think we're enjoying each other's company. She's clearly very insecure that I don't want her and doesn't want to be hurt again. She's angry. I also know she still loves me. And since we met at a young age (19/20), she's also wondering if she should stay single for awhile to discover "who she is." Meanwhile, I'm very actively pursuing her (flowers, card, regular supportive contact). She also says that she likes that and that I should keep it up. I'm lost, and I desperately miss my best friend and spouse. We had a really magical relationship before my depression, so much so that her family is in touch with me and still supportive. I don't know what to do leading into our first in person visit this weekend. I don't want her to keep living at a mutual friends house in her spare bedroom. I just want her to come home so that we can work through this, now that I'm willing to use the tools available to work through my issues. Does this kind of thing resolve itself? How do you pursue a spouse that's living outside of the home? This post ended up longer than I intended. Whoops.
Yasuandio Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) If I were you, I would not let much time slip by. I'd set up a meeting with her asap. I'd say to the following: "I now realize I have been severely depressed for a long time (don't get into too much why right now). I have been selfish by not seeking medical attention. (long pause) I just have been afraid to admit I have something wrong with me. The thought of losing you scared me into going to the doctor (wait for her to inquire). The doctor said I may need to take a medication and have IC for X period of time. I love you, I need you, I don't want to lose you. Please come home with me! Please, please don't leave me now, I don't know if I can face this without you by my side." Footnote. Often it takes time to get in to see a psychiatrist, but get the appt. booked anyway. Make sure you go to a REAL MD doctor, and also make sure you come home with a bunch of medications. I'm sure by now you need something for anxiety, sleep, stomach upset, the actual depression, etc. Your doctor is going to know, tell him ALL symptoms. I know, LS people may not like my recipe. In this case, however, I would do one "beg/plead" mixed with a "'poor me" to get his wife back in the house -- now that he "woke up." And dude, you had better do what the doctor says. BTW Severe depression calls for a psychiatrist's evaluation as well as therapy. If you get down and out again, you may not notice it, as time flies when your in a depressive state. If you get her back home, you gotta get a grip on this before she notices it again. That little speech will only work once, if at all. Good luck. Edited April 9, 2011 by Yasuandio
Author change Posted April 9, 2011 Author Posted April 9, 2011 Thank you, Yasuandio. We talked for three hours or so on Wednesday by phone. She does know that I'm seeing a counselor and taking immediate steps to correct the situation and work out my personal problems. We're also meeting in person on Sunday. I asked earlier if this was a "where we're at talk" or a "logistics talk." Got the answer that it was NOT logistics. However, she is still picking up more of her stuff (not sure how much or what) from our home on Sunday before we leave the house to talk. She was very explicit that I plan the whole event, and expressed that she liked that I was putting so much thought into it. I've also sent flowers in response to a major work victory that happened for her this week. She liked them. And a congratulations card I should have sent a long time ago for working through some major personal issues with her folks, etc., that took a lot of bravery on her part. We're talking about all of these things again and talking clearly. But she hasn't consented to come back home or to even start dating. For my part, I've said that I'm going to fight for me (to get better) and for the relationship. I'm going to pursue her and show her through actions exactly how much she means to me. But doing that when you're not living under the same roof is much harder than I'd ever anticipated. Any ideas? I'm treating Sunday as a light date. I don't know if that's wise, but it feels right. I really screwed up. And the depression isn't an excuse, but there truly was no infidelity, no screaming, no abuse. Just selfishness and neglect. We had such a great relationship before, and I know if I can get her 100% on board to work on it, we can again. I think she wants to see change from me for awhile before she'll come back. But won't that time and space and distance just set us further apart?
Yasuandio Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 We are operating under this premise: you have severe depression for which you failed to seek proper treatment for. Therefore, remaining a depressed husband, you were not exactly the companion she bargained for, and she felt neglected because her emotional needs were not being met. You gotta get her back in the house. You have to restore hope in her again. Going to a theripist every week is not going to do jack shi_t for the kind of severe depression that has gone on as long as yours, and is so deep-seated, it it has even driven away your spouse. Sorry man, these are the cold hard facts. You need proper medical treatment. Right now, what your experiencing, is just a temporary adenaline push. The flowers and compliments are very nice for her to suddenly recieve, but this, coupled with a theripist, and new attitude is not enough to restore hope. Talk is talk. She needs to see action. Not kiss up stuff. She needs to see visual hardcore evidence that your Severe Depression is being treated properly. Severe depression is nothing to be up about, you'll realize this when the tempoary adrenline rush you are experiencing wears off. I really hope you method works. However, IMO, this lady has contemplated leaving the situation for a very long time. If you don't get her home right away to assist in your recovery (she is your wife and needs to be there with you) then the distance between the two of you is going to grow farther and farther apart. Read over that script I gave you. Get an urgent consultation and exam with you family MD. Or, come up with some way to get her back in that house asap. I think my idea is better than flowers, and a sudden change (she's not going to buy that). Maybe other LS members will have better ideas for you. I'm rather an opinionated type. Hope this helps.
Author change Posted April 9, 2011 Author Posted April 9, 2011 I hear you loud and clear. I will be on medication within the week. I'm sure she's been contemplating leaving for some time. And I agree completely that the hope/trust issue is HUGE. I have to restore her hope in me and my recovery. Showing in actions that I'm on the road to recovery (finally) is challenging as all hell when she's not living her anymore. I strongly believe from our conversations that she's considering giving me another chance, but I hear her also not trusting that the change is real. I guess what I'm saying is... I will absolutely use the script you mentioned on Sunday. Other than that, do you (or does anyone else) have any suggestions for other ways to show her with actions that I'm really working on it? I don't mean to do things that are kiss up actions. I really want to show her that I'm truly committed to recovering. Is there nothing additional that I can do other than tell her (repeatedly if necessary) the above type script? Because I'm willing to do that till the end of time. But adding more things to the "win her back" arsenal would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again, Y, for the responses.
D-Lish Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) This might actually be a really good time to work on your recovery and allow her some time to have some space herself. You really need to make sure you are better before you can truly be a good husband to her again. I'd continue to communicate with her often, let her know you are working toward a better life for her to come back to. Your recovery and a reconciliation may be a lot to handle at this juncture. You don't want to jump back into a reconciliation if you aren't ready to make a constant and concerted effort. I think it's great you are willing to make the effort to recover, but something you need to ask yourself if why you waited so long- she's probably asking herself this. I'm just saying, it may not be a bad thing for the two of you to remain apart for a while in order for both of you to come back with clearer heads. You guys could revisit what it's like to date again- get to know one another again. You may be setting yourself up for failure if you have unrealistic expectations of just picking up where you left off three years ago when your marriage was on track. You have a lot to make up for, a lot to repair, and as much as you want to, you can't rush things. Things broke down gradually, and things will have to be built up again gradually. Everything you are doing is a good start, but the road to recovery for both your marriage and your despression is going to be a long journey. It's going to take more than wooing her and courting her- if and when she does come back, she's going to have resentment and hurt you're going to have to deal with. Don't give up though- the work will be hard, so just make sure YOU are in the best possible place to do that work. That's why I suggested that you really deal with the depression head on first before making getting her back your number one priority. You have to fix yourself first and wholly before you will be in the best possible position to fight for your marriage. You'll have a much better chance of suceeding if you do. I've had depression, and it's a horrible hole to live in. IMO, you should climb out of that particular hole first before trying to make everything right all at once. That doesn't mean you forget about her, or ignore her- keep up what you're doing. But it may not be the best time to move back into the home together again. The meds will take about 6 weeks to start to have a positive effect, and you may have to juggle different doses/combinations/treatments to find the treatment that works best for you. Your treatment for your depression has to get sorted first before you jump into a reconciliation full tilt- because as much as you might think you're ready to meet this head on, chances are you're not. You're intentions are good, but your tools may not be as sharp as you need them to be just yet. So get on your meds asap- because not everyone responds well to the first med they try. The best of luck to you- just remember that it took a long time for things to deteriorate to the point they are at now- and they won't rebuild overnight. So make sure you are a recovered man as you endeavour to put your marriage back together- it will make you that much more likely to succeed, because you'll have a much clearer head, and much stronger tools. I know you think getting her back into the home ASAP so you can work on the marriage right away is the best idea- but it really may not be the best way to go about this. Don't forget that she's been through a hell of a lot these past few years- she has a lot of hard feelings to process. This may require you to be selfless and actually let her have that space she said she needed. This space may also be something SHE needs right now so she can find her way back stronger and in a better position to work with you as well. If she needs space- don't push her moving back in. Be patient, and allow her space. Continue to court her of course- but allow the decision to move back in, to be hers.... No pressure. Just a "hey, I want you back, I'm going to do everything I have to do to fight for us- and when you're ready, my door and my heart is open". Then make sure your actions reflect that message and work on it everyday. Best of luck- I've rambled and said too much! I'm pulling for you. Edited April 9, 2011 by D-Lish
Yasuandio Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) There will be other points of view. But everyone will agree about medical treatment. With the vows you and your wife made, I counter above: "For better or for worse, in sickness and in health..." Meds or no meds, your depression is likely to take a nose dive while your wife stays away. Medication and therapy don't fix everything, far from it. When a crisis is going on amist the depression, the illness may get worse, and new disorders may emerge (anxiety and panic disorders, insomnia, etc.). These, amoung other issues I didn't list, are not pleasant to be around. BTW It doesn't take a medical doctor to figure this out, as these are the same symptoms that present often times in separation/divorce. With years of existing deep depression, I think "change" can do without abandonment at this time if at all possible. He can give his wife the space she needs in their own home. Right Change? That means stop running after her and doing stuff for her, period. Only once do I suggest the beg/plead/poor-me routine. Just to get her home. You never pull that again. And don't gush it up with a bunch of extra junk. Clean and simple. Now get that doctor stuff done, fill the medications so you have them to "get her assistance with."I am hoping and praying she'll love the role of Nursy Nancy. (Don't forget to ask the Doctor for the Viagra, seriously.) You'll hear from other LS vets too. All points of view are valid. It ultimately is up to you to decide how to handle. Debtman gives great advice. You'll hear from him I'm sure. PS One more negative about her being out of the house: And when she is not in the home with you, she is outside the home without you. You feel me soldier? Even "Marriage Builders" web sight recommends a married couple always spend the night together because of our natural inclinations as human beings. Edited April 9, 2011 by Yasuandio
Yasuandio Posted April 9, 2011 Posted April 9, 2011 (edited) More Script: "I love you. I am prepared to do anything it takes to save our marriage." "Please come back to our home. We will designate a specific area in OUR home so you may have all the private time and space you need and desire." ***The point is -- this is a one time justified request in your time of need. ONE SHOT ONLY. Otherwise you will look like a woosie-beggar. It has to be framed just right. You can't say too much. Pick and choose from what I I gave you and your own ideas. You don't wanna look like a total spinnless jellyfish. It takes steel balls for a man to face up to a mental illness. You take can take that to the bank. That gives another script idea: "when your a man it is really hard to admit that you might have depression."(say the last word like your embarrassed) Since you will be seeing her tomorrow, keep it really low key. The big 5 sentence speech is when the bag of meds are in your hand. Tommow at the coffee, express some concern about seeing the professionals. Admit that you are frightened. Stop by Target and pick her up a huge stuffed bunny rabbit from the Easter department. If you can afford it, get the big plush real looking one for her to cuddle with. Then you can name him or her together! (use it as a symbol, "maybe I'll be a better man by Easter!). That will really tug at her heart strings. (save the receipt just in case). Somehow, be different tomorow -- reflective, NOT NEEDY. If the time feels right, the "when you're a man....." script (above) might work in well tomorrow. No more plans until after you see the docs. Good luck. I hope Debtman writes in tonight. Edited April 9, 2011 by Yasuandio
Author change Posted April 13, 2011 Author Posted April 13, 2011 Thank you for both of your feedback. The conversation on Sunday went very well. We're going into couples counseling. She expressed a desire to move back in but then changed her mind when she realized that she wanted to be won back. The issue with an in house separation is that we only have a bedroom, a living room, and a kitchen. Small quarters. Not much space to have real, actual separate space. Last night's conversation left me with the impression that I'd pushed her further away again. We talked at home instead of at a neutral place. I think that was a mistake. After her expressing so strongly that she wanted to come home and then going out for dinner, I came into the conversation with the focus on saving the marriage instead of giving her the space and tools she needs to rebuild herself first. That seemed natural, but set off a lot of triggers for her, I think. It made her afraid that things weren't really changing, that she was being pushed -- which made her run in the other direction. It was terribly hard to hear that she doesn't miss me right now (although crying and suddenly saying you want to come feel like missing to me). She's going to her therapist today. We're going to schedule another time to talk again either this weekend or next week. Sunday left me feeling hopeful. Now I'm back to being terrified. I don't understand what's going on. She's not ready to be pursued, but she wants to be won back? She loves me and wants to work on it, but she doesn't know when the attraction will return and she doesn't miss me? Help?
Yasuandio Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 OK. This seems normal, since the conversation got all gooshy and detailed. It was suppossed to be light). Too much of this kind of stuff that YOU wish answers to at the moment, pushes her away. It is a really delicate line. But you have to stop now. Too late for the bag of medication idea. Forget the stuffed rabbit too. Change, you did not say one thing about the ACTIONS you have taken toward treating your depression. What is your progress thereto? What urgent appontments are on the books for this week? Who have you already seen?
Author change Posted April 15, 2011 Author Posted April 15, 2011 Yasuandio: I think I answered this elsewhere, but I am on meds and in IC. We're also entering MC next week. I am putting my life back together (as much as possible). I'm identifying traits that I have esteemed in the past in myself as well as where I'd like to go in the future as a person and trying to execute that vision. I am also trying through action to demonstrate such to her and that I really do love her (something she doubts since it took so long for me to see the problems), but that's difficult when you're not living together.
Author change Posted April 15, 2011 Author Posted April 15, 2011 D-Lish: All of what you're saying makes sense. I'm trying to allay my concern that during a "cooling off" period she won't find someone else while we're both working on ourselves. She hasn't decided to date other people, but she has brought up the idea of casually dating other people as a part of her self-discovery and development. That terrifies me, quite honestly. But I guess it's not the nail in the coffin either, so long as I'm still working on being a man that she wants to come home to? She's very hurt and angry still at times. I guess that's good since we've only been separated for a little over two weeks.
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