threebyfate Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Can't remember the last time I posted in this forum but as an observation, do any of you notice the similarities between PUA techniques and WS's? Food for thought.
jthorne Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Pickup Artists? Sure. The root problem is they both are messed up.
Author threebyfate Posted March 31, 2011 Author Posted March 31, 2011 Forget the judgments. Look at the conceptual similarities, as it relates to sociological and biological triggers.
jthorne Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 I wasn't making a judgement. People that tend to cheat or be pick up artists tend to have some kind of problem. Intimacy, mommy/daddy issues, conflict avoidance, etc etc etc. What I did notice by googling just now, is the alarming number of support sites there are for PUA's.
Author threebyfate Posted March 31, 2011 Author Posted March 31, 2011 Take a look at: Social proofValue and scarcity.Hook.
dreamingoftigers Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 And both's targets seem to be women with low self-esteem or in vulnerable positions. I would guess that it all links back to instant gratification. This with low self-esteem are instantly gratified with attention and affection that others would hold out on until they felt 100% confirmed secure with a person. The WS/PUA wants to get with "someone" quickly etc. And feels gratified for this. Really enjoying your posting of late TBF!
Author threebyfate Posted March 31, 2011 Author Posted March 31, 2011 Thanks dot, although I'd like to steer away from judgments pertaining to OW/OMs. Just observable sociobiological based techiques and how they can work on the unsuspecting.
2sunny Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Thanks dot, although I'd like to steer away from judgments pertaining to OW/OMs. Just observable sociobiological based techiques and how they can work on the unsuspecting. Can't remember the last time I posted in this forum but as an observation, do any of you notice the similarities between PUA techniques and WS's? Food for thought. i have experience in this area you are exploring... no judgement - just consistent evidence of the dynamics and how it works. the pursuer seeks attention... an ego feed. then looks around for an unsuspecting victim that seeks validation and NEEDS attention (another ego feed). the victim carries marked traits that allow the pursuer to understand they are week and vulnerable to what the pursuer offers AND what the victim lacks in their life. the pursuer reads the evidence and energy easily since they know what they seek, they tend to know the signs well. when the "right" vulnerable victim appears - the pursuer turns on the charm (and the lies) in order to reel in the victim to get what they want... ego feed at someone else's expense - based on lies. some pursuers wait patiently for a long time... prepping their prey, gain trust... others move easily from one to the next without blinking an eye. when the victim shows the most vulnerable time - that is when the pursuer moves in and takes action. does that make sense?
dreamingoftigers Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 And both's targets seem to be women with low self-esteem or in vulnerable positions. I would guess that it all links back to instant gratification. This with low self-esteem are instantly gratified with attention and affection that others would hold out on until they felt 100% confirmed secure with a person. The WS/PUA wants to get with "someone" quickly etc. And feels gratified for this. Really enjoying your posting of late TBF! This really wasn't a reflection on OW/OM per se because not all are like that for sure. But, the person who is getting pursued by WS/PUA would generally be gratified by such contact due to low self-esteem or vulnerable situation. It is more of an identifier for the type of person WS/PUA would pursue, making them easier to "hook." I am not really familiar with " social proof." I challenged a Sociology course 10 years ago and remember nothing of the exam.
jthorne Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) Social proof is like herd mentality in a way. Take Hugh Heffner. Plain vanilla womanizer jackwagon, but men see him with beautiful women, so they think he's the king of cool. In regards to MM, I assume some women find a MM more attractive BECAUSE he's married. I've oversimplified here, sorry. In a hurry. Edited April 1, 2011 by jthorne
Woggle Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 I respect Hugh Hefner and not just because he has plenty of women. I have a great deal of respect for people who build themselves up from nothing and become successful. Like him or not he is truly a self made man plus Playboy really does have great articles. It's a men's lifestyle magazine that does not insult our intelligence and just happens to have beautiful women. When I look at something like Maxim I get the feeling that they think men are a bunch of morons while Playboy realize that men can be smart and sexual at the same time.
Author threebyfate Posted April 1, 2011 Author Posted April 1, 2011 A quick and dirty of the PUA terms, from my understanding: Social proof = women are attracted to men that have been approved by other women. It means the men are safe (non-violent) and found to be attractive. Value and scarcity = pretty self-explanatory but taken men who act a certain way, give the impression of social "value". The scarcity aspect ties into human nature of wanting what people can't get. Hook = blowing hot and cold, to reel someone in emotionally since it triggers both ego and insecurities.
mizliz Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 A quick and dirty of the PUA terms, from my understanding: Social proof = women are attracted to men that have been approved by other women. It means the men are safe (non-violent) and found to be attractive. Value and scarcity = pretty self-explanatory but taken men who act a certain way, give the impression of social "value". The scarcity aspect ties into human nature of wanting what people can't get. Hook = blowing hot and cold, to reel someone in emotionally since it triggers both ego and insecurities. So, a comparison can be made between MM/MW (seeking sex and/or intimacy) and PUAs (seeking sex and/or intimacy)? What social/biological phenomenon exists here? Ego and insecurities have a basis in psychology, which is why (I assume) the responses to this will be value/judgement-laden.
BB07 Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 Everyone has an ego and insecurities and are vulnerable at certain times in life.............so what makes someone fall for it at one time and not another? Is is how great the vulnerability is at a specific time? And where does attraction fit in? Is attraction primal? Is attraction based on unconscious desires?
mizliz Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 Everyone has an ego and insecurities and are vulnerable at certain times in life.............so what makes someone fall for it at one time and not another? Is is how great the vulnerability is at a specific time? And where does attraction fit in? Is attraction primal? Is attraction based on unconscious desires? These are great questions! The answers are likely to vary
Author threebyfate Posted April 1, 2011 Author Posted April 1, 2011 The best people to answer those questions are yourselves. If you have the opportunity, you should go to youtube and start watching some of the PUA techniques, especially the Mystery methods. Forget what he looks like and see if you can't see any parallels. Bet some of you can, albeit only if it's viewed from an objective perspective.
Dust Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 PUA techniques are targeted at men who are afraid of women. Things like Social proof are real. It's just perverse the way they go about talking about it and other things.
Taramere Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 Can't remember the last time I posted in this forum but as an observation, do any of you notice the similarities between PUA techniques and WS's? Food for thought. I think it would depend on the circumstances underlying the affair. People who are very attractive physically, and who also have a lot of self confidence, are - presuming they come into a lot of contact with the opposite sex, always going to be presented with romantic attention and sexual opportunities by others who don't care about their relationship status. Some may have a strong value of fidelity, and resist for that reason. Others might be less concerned with the principle of fidelity, and take the opportunity if they think they can get away with it. PUAs I regard as pretenders who study and ape the behaviour of people who are naturally attractive. Whereas the natural player might be averse to the idea of hurting anybody, but not sufficiently averse to resist temptation when it's in their path, the PUA is more caught up with mindgames and power. Hurting other people is a success, because the person who has cultivated themselves as a "PUA" knows what it's like to be in that hurt, powerless feeling place...and it feels good to be on the strong end of the power imbalance. To be placing somebody else in the victim role. I think there are probably people who cheat for similar reasons....ie that it goes beyond simple opportunism and into the realms of trying to heal some past hurt by inflicting a similar hurt on another person. That other person could be the affair partner who they know they will "throw under the bus" at some point in the future...or it could be the marital partner. Perhaps both.
Author threebyfate Posted April 1, 2011 Author Posted April 1, 2011 I think it would depend on the circumstances underlying the affair. People who are very attractive physically, and who also have a lot of self confidence, are - presuming they come into a lot of contact with the opposite sex, always going to be presented with romantic attention and sexual opportunities by others who don't care about their relationship status. Some may have a strong value of fidelity, and resist for that reason. Others might be less concerned with the principle of fidelity, and take the opportunity if they think they can get away with it. PUAs I regard as pretenders who study and ape the behaviour of people who are naturally attractive. Whereas the natural player might be averse to the idea of hurting anybody, but not sufficiently averse to resist temptation when it's in their path, the PUA is more caught up with mindgames and power. Hurting other people is a success, because the person who has cultivated themselves as a "PUA" knows what it's like to be in that hurt, powerless feeling place...and it feels good to be on the strong end of the power imbalance. To be placing somebody else in the victim role. I think there are probably people who cheat for similar reasons....ie that it goes beyond simple opportunism and into the realms of trying to heal some past hurt by inflicting a similar hurt on another person. That other person could be the affair partner who they know they will "throw under the bus" at some point in the future...or it could be the marital partner. Perhaps both.Many affairs begin with a need for validation, many times an unhealthy need, at any expense. That's another aspect of PUA that aligns with affairs.
Untouchable_Fire Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 Everyone has an ego and insecurities and are vulnerable at certain times in life.............so what makes someone fall for it at one time and not another? Is is how great the vulnerability is at a specific time? And where does attraction fit in? Is attraction primal? Is attraction based on unconscious desires? I look at it in terms of cost vs. benefit. Were I to consider cheating... I would look strongly at what my potential BS's reaction to finding out would be... and the consequences from that. If I have a lot to lose, then no amount of "primal attraction" is going to make me do something stupid. In fact... I would never let that attraction grow beyond a certain point anyway. The primary issue with this OW forum is men who have lost touch with reality regarding this... or who honestly believe their spouse cannot/will not leverage any serious consequences.
dreamingoftigers Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 There seems to be the sense among a lot of WS that they won't be caught so the consequence never comes down the pipe. With PUA there is nothing to "catch" (aside from the occasional STD) so that may influence their ways of doing things slightly. Both lack an incredible amount of empathy for other people. Shockingly so.
Taramere Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) Many affairs begin with a need for validation, many times an unhealthy need, at any expense. That's another aspect of PUA that aligns with affairs. I tend to the view that when a man with a high sex drive is confronted with a woman he finds sexually attractive, who indicates that she is willing to sleep with him, he's probably going to get sexual with her unless he is struck by persuasive reasons not to. Persuasive reasons could be performance anxiety, fear of a rape allegation (particularly where he feels very mistrustful of the woman) or the fact that he is in a relationship that he doesn't want to jeopardise, or that she is in a relationship with his friend/brother. In all four scenarios, the core fear is that he will lose something as a result of sleeping with the woman (his reputation if he screws up the encounter and the woman mocks him for it - or if she makes a rape allegation - his wife, his relationship with his friend/brother etc). So, as Untouchable Fire has said, he's dissuaded because the potential costs outweigh the benefits. A woman might take the view "my partner wouldn't cheat on me because he would never want to hurt me like that. If he does cheat on me, he must really want to hurt me - which is totally screwed up and abusive." Meantime, from his perspective the potential emotional impact on her of his infidelity might not even factor in the decision making process - until such time as it is too late. When the deed is done, he's been caught and he is confronted with her grief, tears and anger. If he doesn't want to lose his partner, he'll either not take the risk at all...or (as probably happened in many cases) he'll try to cover his tracks so that he doesn't get caught. Or he might go ahead with the infidelity, convinced that if he does get caught out he'll be able to sweet-talk his partner into forgiving him. Not to say men never care about hurting their women's feelings - but it's notable how frequently a man, in discussing the subject of infidelity, will focus more on what he might lose than on how it would make his partner feel. Pick-up artistry seems far more concerned with mental processes. With trying to get power and the upper hand. It seems to draw in a lot of men who are consumed by hurt from a failed relationship, who are looking for something that can anaesthetise them against future pain - and believe that in the process of becoming expert PUAs they will lose their insecurities and learn to master their emotions. PUA as a form of therapy. PUA as a road to becoming Master of the Universe. For a lot of them, sex seems to be only a small part of the equation...and so in that sense I do agree that there is a correlation between the PUA and some wayward spouses. Woggle touched on it in his player thread, when he talked of players being more into getting validation from having a pretty woman on their arm, and engaging in locker room gossip about her than they are actually into having sex with that pretty woman. However, I do think there are men out there who have extra marital sex for no particular reason other than the physical thrill of having sex with a new woman and the belief that they won't get caught. Edited April 1, 2011 by Taramere
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