wtf! what a mess

[stop_the_lies]

Hi,

 

I typed a huge message but the comp crashed before I could finish it. I'll keep this one short and snappy.

 

5 year relationship, 2.5 year old son. She has Post Natal Depression (from stitches coming away making it difficult to cope and bond) and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (from childhood). A year ago last NYE she did some cocaine which made 2010 hell for both of us. Constantly calling ambulances and going to A&E, had every test you could think of, ECG, CT Scan, MRI the list is endless. All showed nothing. Had her implant removed in October and hasnt called an ambulance since or been to A&E. Still suffers with the panic attacks and dizziness but since found she has silent migraines. She said all through 2010 she would never touch cocaine again because of how much she loves her son and couldnt bare to think of him without a mother.

 

4 weeks ago I got a text while I was about to come home saying it was over, she was sorry, but couldnt live a lie anymore and would speak to me in a few days. Eventually admitted she met someone else, kissed him, blocked my family and friends from her facebook (which she uses more than anyone else I know!). Stopped me coming round the house uninvited, saying she could have had someone there. Said it wasnt cheating, cos we hadnt been together for a while (funny she kissed me before she went out on the saturday before when she met him?)

 

Went NC except for our son. She relented somewhat a week later and said they both decided they didnt want a relationship, and started inviting me in for tea, and to stay, which I did a few times. Said she might have some bar work and if I could have him Saturday nights it would help. We had money troubles both being (mature, im 30 she is 23) students, she was getting distinctions until we broke up.

 

Since then she said she might do some lapdancing. I was gobsmacked, that she broke up with me and so soon thought I'd somehow be cool about being cheated on, and then knowing she is out taking money off guys to show herself naked up close to them. I would not have had a problem if she was coming home to me and we were both benefitting from it!!

 

She is now working 3 or 4 nights a week at this place, and our son is being looked after by people that dont know him (her dad, her brother). The mornings after she is not being a mother at all, one time I knocked at 9.45am to hear my son awake saying "mummy, mummy, MUMMY" and she was still in bed.

 

We have had sex twice since the breakup. She would not kiss me either times, but we had good sex. It was just like before she gave birth. After the birth she had the stitches, an implant put in, and had Post Natal Depression so our sex life was pretty dead.

 

I have since found out she had been going to the lap dancing club a while before she told me she was "thinking about it".

 

I now believe there was no other guy. The new friends she made in January she told them we hadn't been together for ages, didn't love me, and I was only there cos I was good with our son. Some of these girls work lap dancing and I think she got sucked into thinking of the money while drunk, and thought I would never accept it. The funny thing is I would have accepted it had we been together, but we weren't and that made it difficult to see her as a friend.

 

The last time we slept together was Friday night, we ended up in the same club together but I blanked her as the way she has treated me would make me look like a dick to still talk to her in front of people that know us. The lies has made it impossible to consider her as a friend? I sent a text by mistake when I got home saying "ru still awake? x" .. it should have gone to a friend who's light I saw on.. she said "haha, you got a girl then, thanks whatever :(". This led to a conversation where she came to my place and we had really good sex. I dropped her back in the morning as her mum was staying at hers looking after her son. Back to normal NC except for our son. I told her this couldnt happen again, no more talking unless its about him as I felt I was getting stuck in a bad loop.

 

I am not sure what really happened. I would appreciate some advice and can provide more information, its just a big story and I tried to include the useful bits.

 

Thanks for any input. BTW we are in the uk where lap dancing is strictly no touch and the club has good rules and cctv for protection of staff.

[Mcnulty]

Sounds like she is pretty confused, easily led and immature.

 

She's lied to you , you suspect over having another guy, dumps you, doesn't seem like she is putting her son first and is playing with your head by sleeping with you!

 

You should not be sleeping with her, you're not together, where's the positive in doing this? Also she has bad mouthed you to other people and has stated that she doesn't love you...yet you are still running after her and sleeping with her.

 

It sounds like you are trying to get your head around the lap dancing thing, stating it has no touch policy etc...man, she's lied to you!

 

Get some clarity regarding, A) Did she lie to you re. having another guy. B) Does she still love you and want to try again and C) Most importantly, is your child's welfare being put first...that is surely the most important thing here?

[stop_the_lies]

Yeah she has been caught out repeatedly lying. Over and over again. She even lied to her friends about things and they have not taken kindly to it.

 

A) She won't let me ask questions about it. Says they both didn't want a relationship and only kissed. Whatever, lol..

 

B) Says she now realises she loves me but must be on her own for a while. Said we would probably get back together, I told her totally no way!

 

C) I think not. His routine is screwed and he is waking up to too many people other than mum or dad. He used to wake up every morning and we'd bring him in bed with both of us, right up until she ended it. Now 3 or 4 mornings a week she has either had not enough sleep or someone else looked after him like her mum, or whoever cos I'm not told.

 

And cos she lies so much, anything she said above is probably lies

[fetish]

not to burst your bubble (and i'm dealing w/ accepting the same thing as i just recently broke up w/my ex of 8 years). We just slept together this past weekend and I tell you, it started the pain all over again. But here's a few things to keep in mind.

 

1. She's a liar, so you don't know what all she's hid from you. Don't ever totally let the possibility go that there could've been another guy involved.

 

2. She's like my ex. She seems like an addict. My ex's addiction was gambling and manipulation. Your ex's addiction seems to be attention and a little bit of manipulation.

 

Either way, this doesn't sound healthy. She seems immature and was not ready for a kid, let alone a relaitonship. You're the older and wiser one. If its meant to be, it will be, but in the mean time you should try to step back and let yourself heal.

 

I used to date a girl before my recent ex who was talking about working in a strip club as a cocktail waitress right before we broke up. I told her i wasn't happy with it. She made her choice, that's why we're not together.

[stop_the_lies]

Yes, there is no chance of "us". She would have to do so much work that I doubt her capability of doing so. She does love attention, and I think her post natal depression lifting made her crave it even more. But then if it had lifted, she should be bonding with our son and spending time with him. She is most definitely not.

 

And I cannot believe a word she says so I really don't know what happened Just a few possible outcomes which are likely, it matters not.

 

She doesn't want people to know about it.. But she has kind of advertised it on facebook. Ironic in the extreme, her profile has pics of our kid on it It's ok for other people to know, but not if I tell them! hehe

[stop_the_lies]

Well up until all this. I wanted to spend my life with this woman. And my son, as a family.

 

Now, I don't.. But I still love her. It is hard to know, based on how many times I have been there for her (when much less bad things happened) when her health issues tipped her over the edge.

 

Am I never supposed to be there for her now? She is the mother of my child. Are telling lies like she has ever recoverable? I refuse to instigate any reconciliation on behalf of the way I was treated; but I might be open to her initiating it.. I seriously doubt she has the composure or ability to reflect to do this which is a seperate issue!

[stuckonyou]

Well up until all this. I wanted to spend my life with this woman. And my son, as a family.

 

Now, I don't.. But I still love her. It is hard to know, based on how many times I have been there for her (when much less bad things happened) when her health issues tipped her over the edge.

 

Am I never supposed to be there for her now? She is the mother of my child. Are telling lies like she has ever recoverable? I refuse to instigate any reconciliation on behalf of the way I was treated; but I might be open to her initiating it.. I seriously doubt she has the composure or ability to reflect to do this which is a seperate issue!

I feel for you. But for a moment stop and think. Do you really love her as a person or do you THINK you love her because she is the mother of your child? If the answer is yes you love her as a person, then give her some time.Going by whatever you've described of her as a person, she is still very immature. Physically she may be a mother, but in her head she has not left high school yet. Maybe it is the age gap between you and her that makes her feel old and do things she thinks she may have missed in life. But all these things will not be visible to her and cannot be explained to her too. My advice in this case would be to be indifferent to her.

As they say:“There are times when silence has the loudest voice”

Stay silent and meet/contact her only regarding your son. If you don't shoe neither anger nor love she would feel anxious and would try to win back your love. If this happens you can tell her about how you feel hurt by her doings.

 

If in the other case, you only THINK you love her since she's the mother of your child, then you should make yourself strong and snap ties with her. You may also contemplate legal action for custody of your son since she doesn't seem to be a good mother as of now.

 

In either which way, you need to be STRONG enough to not be carried away by her dependency on you(since it seems like you like feeling needed) and also to not SLEEP with her. Trust me, SEX will only COMPLICATE things between you two.

[stuckonyou]

n the previous post I meant "If you show neither anger nor love she would feel anxious and would try to win back your love. If this happens you can tell her about how you feel hurt by her doings."

 

sorry for the typo

[stop_the_lies]

I honestly love her. I love her as the mother of my child a very distant 2nd to that.

 

Does it mean anything that I love her when I can't trust a word she says? She hasn't tried at all to rebuild it yet.. Just more lies!

 

I think you are right about the age thing. I think her Facebook addiction helped it along by thinking she was missing out on lots of fun.

 

But how could I ever enter a relationship with her knowing what she did, how she did it, and not knowing if she'd do the same thing again? Do you really think you can get past that stuff?

[stuckonyou]

You said she has had Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and still has panic attacks. Are you sure she is not doing drugs again? She is doing lap dancing when she has a 2.5 year old son! She is doing a college degree and got distinctions up until now. Why would a girl with distinctions choose to do lap dance (a profession considered degrading for women by many) when she can do any other part time job to support her studies?

 

Its not about the lying right now. This girl has serious self-esteem issues and needs psychiatric help. She said she 'needs to be on her own for a while'. That means she is struggling with her esteem issues but not in a healthy way (not by doing lap dancing). In a way she is also acknowledging the fact that she has been dependent on you and also doesn't know if she actually loves you.

 

The question of believing what she says now or getting past what she said and did should come only when YOU know she is in perfect mental condition to take future decisions. Don't get me wrong, I know you love her, and so all I am saying is it is time that you ask yourself do you WANT to go through this with her? It will require a LOT of effort to HELP her to get to a mental condition good enough to be in a HEALTHY relationship. From your description, right now she is only thinking about herself and not even her son. She needs counselling so that AT LEAST she is a good mother. Once she realises her responsibilities as a mother and how immature she has been,only then can you expect her to UNDERSTAND your love and do something about it.

I am sure you don't want her to come back ONLY when she realises she is incapable of surviving on her own. It needs two to tango. You ALONE cannot sail this boat.She needs to be WITH you and not BEHIND or AHEAD of you.

When she is in a good state of mind, you may just start loving her the way you used to and forget everything she did just because you know she is a changed person. But thinking of this stage is getting ahead of ourselves I think.

Perhaps, you can try convincing her to get help first. The problem is half solved once she accepts she HAS a problem.

[stop_the_lies]

well.. turns out after we broke up she slept with two other guys (seperately) and myself. Hid this from me, I had an instinct and checked her phone.. I know of one of them and this was/is going on before and after we had sex. One was the guy she cheated on me for...

proper let down but now I can get on with my life, and not worrying about her..

[Mcnulty]

Sorry to hear this, but at least now, you know the full extent of her treachery and lies.

 

You are better than all of this...you must realize this now. She is not worth your energy or heartache, move on with your life and prosper...I wish you strength and luck.

[stop_the_lies]

Thank you.

 

Yes, I really know now. To not wait two weeks before sleeping with the guy she dumped our 5 year relationship for (to not have a relationship) after sleeping with me the week before..

 

Then sleeping with someone known to both of us in a big social circle of friends.. Then to reply "haha you got a girl then.. Thanks, whatever :(" when I genuinely sent a "are u awake? x" text to her by mistake (it was for my sister in law) which led to her coming to my place and having sex.

 

Then to sleep with each of these guys again after, and not say a word to me about either of them. I feel physically sick, and she has ruined herself to me. I believe she thought that we would get back together at some point down the line, and she even commented "I could have you back right now if I said it" and similar stuff.

 

She said some really hurtful things regarding what happened with them both. She never kissed me while we had sex (post break-up, she kissed me passionately before going on that night when she met him, two days before ending our 5 year relationship), which I wouldn't have paid attention to if she hadn't told me she kissed them while doing it.

 

She displayed a lot of guilt, tears and pain when talking to me about it. The guy who she cheated on me for actually goes to my university and knows what I look like as he has been in her house where my photos are on the walls. I don't know what he looks like, only his first name.

 

I am better than all this. I devoted my life to my degree for her, my son, and myself, and was there for her all through 2010 while she suffered seriously debilitating symptoms. Now they lift slightly, I get ALL the blame and she moves on in record time..

 

I am most embarrassed for my son. She threatens if I mention what she did (leading me on with sex while having sex with two other guys) then she will not be able to face me, or leave the house, and I will see my son in a contact centre.

 

My opinion is, I'm not in a relationship with her, so I can say and do whatever the hell I want to whoever the hell I want. I'm done trying to fix her mess; she is covered in it and she can clean herself off this time.

 

My life is now me, and my gorgeous little boy. It will not be long before he wants to live with me, I always put more effort than her into him in every aspect, and it reflects in the way he interacts with us (ignores her, will not leave me alone at all!).

Edited March 14, 2011 by stop_the_lies

[betterdeal]

She may have borderline (emotionally unstable) personality disorder. You've described a number of the criteria for diagnosis. I would be flabbergasted if she was not doing cocaine, given that she works in the sex industry which is awash with it. Read "Lost in the Mirror" to get a better idea of this condition.

[stop_the_lies]

Thats exactly what I stumbled across! BPD!

 

I can't do a thing to help her.. And yes, she was doing coke the night before we had sex after that 1st week. I dunno if she is doing it since, and she has lost her job at the lap dancing club cos she broke trust of one of the girls there..

 

There's nothing I can do about her mental state or illness. Tried involving family in many stages but none ever bothered because I think they have all had a gutful of her by now (thru childhood to here).

 

Where is "Lost in the Mirror"? --edit: Amazon

Edited March 14, 2011 by stop_the_lies

[Downtown]

STL, I agree with BetterDeal that the behavior you describe sounds like strong traits of BPD, which my exW suffers from. For a quick overview of what it is like to live with a typical BPDer, please see the three posts I wrote in Inigo's thread at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2826453#post2826453.

 

In one of those posts, I provide a link to a great article about why it can be so difficult to leave a BPDer. If you would find it helpful, I would be glad to suggest other online material -- written by professionals -- and to try to answer any questions you have about BPD. I am so sorry you are going through this awful mess. Take care.

[betterdeal]

I think that getting therapy, and spending a lot of time healing, accepting and understanding what you've been through is time well spent. You've been abused and you need to recover from that.

[stop_the_lies]

Thanks everyone.

 

Yes, I am sure she has this. So similar to the thread linked too, its quite amazing how similar her behaviour is.

 

I would appreciate any links you have Downtown, and thanks for your time and support.

[Downtown]

STL, at the same site you found the article about how to leave a BPDer, there are another nine articles that are excellent -- most are written by professionals. Also at that site (BPDfamily.com) is the largest and most active forum I have found that is targeted solely to those "Nons" who are dating or living with BPDers. It is so large that there are a dozen message boards for folks at various stages of the relationship. I suggest you check out the "Leaving a BPDer" message board, where you will find stories by hundreds of people like us. Another forum I like (which is much smaller) is at shrink4men.freeforums.org.

 

About three dozen articles about BPD are available from therapist Shari Schreiber at http://gettinbetter.com/articles.html. My favorite of the bunch is the first one, "Do You Love to be Needed, or Need to be Loved?" It provides the best explanation I've found as to why we caregiver-type guys are so willing to tolerate emotional abuse for years in order to take care of these BPDer women. Essentially, she explains that we were taught all through childhood that being needed is the equivalent of being loved -- with the result that we have great difficulty distinguishing between the two. That is, we mistakenly believe we are being loved only when we find a person who sorely needs us -- and we are convinced that they really love us even when they are abusive much of the time. Hence, our problem is that our need to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are).

 

Schreiber refers to this confusion of being needed with being loved as "codependence." I have strong aspects of codependency in my own personality when it is defined in that manner. Moreover, it sounds like you may have them too. I say this because we caregivers tend to walk right past the healthy, emotionally available women because they do not desperately need us. We keep walking until we find the emotionally unstable women. They will passionately adore us and claim we are their saviors. And they will mirror our best personality features, making us feel like we've met our soul mates. And, of course, they will make us feel so NEEDED. On top of that, they have spent a lifetime learning how to project a sense of vulnerability -- which to us is like catnip for cats. The danger for you, then, is that you may run away from your ex only to run into the arms of another woman just like her -- unless you take the time to read about BPD and learn the red flags, i.e., the nine traits. This is why I'm so glad to hear that you are so interested in reading about it.

 

As to your likely being "codependent" in some respects, I caution that "codependency" is neither well understood nor well defined. Online, you will find numerous wildly divergent definitions of it. At the website for the largest national organization dedicated to this issue (CoDA, or "Co-Dependents Anonymous"), you will find that CoDA lists more than fifty behavioral traits for a person having "codependency."

 

That is, they have a grocery list of every imaginable trait their membership groups have lobbied for. It is political nonsense, of course. Significantly, codependency is not even listed as a disorder in the Diagnostic Manual because a substantial share of the APA (American Phychological Association) membership is not yet persuaded that "codependency" constitutes an emotional disorder.

[stop_the_lies]

Thanks Downtown.

 

It's funny, because a previous partner of mine was very similar in a lot of aspects.. But my current ex took a while for it to come to a proper boiling point like this.

 

I have not mentioned even a small amount of the things I have put up with from my current ex. Like being arrested for assault when she assaulted me 9 or 10 times, the last time while holding my baby son in the other arm as she swung into my already bloody mouth (she had just woke up). She told the police I ragdolled her around my house, and luckily for all of us she eventually conceded her lies in a letter to the CPS which resulted in the charges being dropped.

 

I do feel looking back now, that she sorely, seriously, needed me. Many times I accused her of not loving me because her actions reflected otherwise. I guess I was actually right, no matter how much I didn't want to believe my accusations.

 

I would hate to run into the same kind of person again. Right now, I don't want any kind of person, but looking back I can see it has happened twice and therefore I must take some kind of preventative action to stop it happening again. I have my son to think of now.

 

I think I get the codependance thing. Does it mean I don't or didn't love her? I'm not so sure about that. But it is possible I confused love myself due to the mixed messages I recieved while in the relationship? Perhaps this will become clearer for me in the future.

 

Thanks again for the time you have taken, peace and good will to you.

[Downtown]

I have not mentioned even a small amount of the things I have put up with from my current ex. Like being arrested for assault when she assaulted me 9 or 10 times....

Like your ex, my exW went into a tantrum, chasing me room to room in her rage. When she was trying to destroy the door to a room I had retreated to, I pushed her away -- causing her to fall down. And because she was on blood thinner, she had bruses on her chest from where I had pushed her. She called the police and had me arrested. Because it was a Saturday morning, I was in jail for nearly three days until I could appear before the arraignment judge late on Monday afternoon. By that time, she had obtained a restraining order barring me from returning to my home for a year and a half. I have since read so many similar reports from other guys that I now know this is a common occurrence when BPDers decide to end the marriage or relationship.

I do feel looking back now, that she sorely, seriously, needed me. Many times I accused her of not loving me because her actions reflected otherwise. I guess I was actually right, no matter how much I didn't want to believe my accusations.

At the BPDfamily site I recommend, the consensus among "Nons" is that their BPDer ex-partners are incapable of loving. My view, however, is that she likely did love you -- but only in the immature way that a four year old child is able to love -- where "I love you" largely means "I desperately need you to love me."

I would hate to run into the same kind of person again.

It is very difficult not to fall in love with them. BPDers cannot tolerate being in touch with their conflicted feelings because they are not emotionally mature enough to tolerate ambiguities and paradox. Hence, they do black-white thinking, switching back and forth between one extreme view (adoring you) and its polar opposite (hating you). The result -- during the six month honeymoon -- is that you are bombarded with adoration. You experience a purity of emotion (i.e., unadulterated pure adoration) that is only found in adult BPDers and small children. It is hard to resist, particularly for us caregivers who have such a strong desire to be needed.

I think I get the codependence thing. Does it mean I don't or didn't love her?

No, not at all. Unlike BPDers, "codependents" are not frozen at the emotional development stage of a four year old. It only means, then, that you and I have such a strong desire to be needed that we have difficulty distinguishing "being loved" from "being needed." That is, I mistakenly believed that my exW truly loved me like any other adult would. Instead, she loved me in the crippled, impaired fashion of a young child. My love for her, though, was very real. Indeed, I still love her even though I never call her.

 

Because she never learned to love herself, she is incapable of loving me in a mature manner. And, because of my upbringing, I was unable to tell the difference. Indeed, even after she had me arrested on a bogus charge, I still could not believe she was capable of attesting to it in court (in front of my step children). I still thought that she really loved me -- just like any other adult would do.

 

So another six months passed before I witnessed her standing up in court and accusing me of brutalizing her. Only then did I finally understand that -- in the 45 years I had known her -- she never was capable of loving me in a selfless, mature way. At that point, I told my lawyer to file the divorce papers.