New to site, but all ! :(

[AlisaMarie]

Hi everyone! Just like everyone on this... I am struggling with emotions and ex boyfriend hurt. I would LOVE any advice or similar stories to inspire me to get out of this painful rut that I have thrown myself into. Let's just call him Richard. We were together for over a year... he was a bit younger- but we had so much in common and meshed like butter melting on mashed potatoes! Anyway, we had our bumps, his ex gf was preggers and I knew that between that and the age difference, we were in for some drama. What a great boyfriend, showered me with love and gifts and kindness, I NEVER had that in all of my life. He was for ME! After his child was born, his love for me got stronger. We talked and were both worried that seeing the birth may rekindle feelings for his ex. We were so open about that stuff. It only made us better. They moved in with me and things started getting hard. He was a great help, but he was so insecure. I had his baby when he was working and I NEVER cheated, lied, or anything! I was the perfect girl and not fake, that's how I am! His accusations became unbarable. I traveled for work and he would say I was getting drunk and meeting men. Eventually, it just got so bad that he chose to leave, and he did... in July. That was a very hard day- but he wasn't emotionally ready to have a baby and a great girl. He expected the worst and lost himself. Since then, it's been about 4 months, we have got back together 3 times. Once for a half and hour, and the other two times for 3 weeks. Never moved back in. What happens is I follow all of the rules, I don't call, text, email- but I have to admit to a couple weak moments...trust me, those get you no where! But after he missed me, he'd text, want to see me, tell me how much he loves me and knows it... then after 2 weeks, he'd change his mind. Leave, not talk to me... then it would happen all over. I am pretty sure other females are involved, but I don't stalk or try to find out because it just hurts. Anyway- this last time, he questioned his feelings after 2 weeks of promising he loves me, wants me, and telling me we are great. I told him I will make it easy... IT'S OVER. He said he didn't want to be enemies, but I told him he was dead to me because I am so beat from the roller coaster of emotions he has caused. He came and got his stuff, said some mean things via text, and I haven't talked to him since. That was 10 days ago. This is really the longest we have gone ever without talking. I can't lie, I don't want him out of my life. He was my best friend, and my best love. I was in a few long term relationships and NEVER felt what I had with him. Soooo, he's not coming back this time... and I don't know how to get him out of my head, and heart. I really don't want to... but I think I have to this time, for everyone's sake. ANY advice???

[Downtown]

Alisa, welcome to LoveShack. I'm so sorry to hear that you are in such pain over your on-again off-again relationship. With respect to your exBF, you are describing a number of well known behavioral traits: the push-away and pull-back cycle, insecurity, inability to trust (e.g., jealousy), and all-or-nothing thinking (e.g., you are adored for a few weeks and then, in ten seconds, he switches to devaluing you for several weeks (or hours). These are only a few of the pattern of traits called BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).

 

Whether such traits are sufficiently severe to meet the diagnostic criteria is a determination that only a professional can make. Moreover, even if his traits are severe, he would have to have several more (i.e., have at least 5 out of a total of 9) to be considered having BPD. That is, having only those few traits is not sufficient.

 

Hence, if he has strong BPD traits, you likely would also be seeing others like emotional instability (i.e., inability to control his emotions well), anger issues (directed outward or inward), lack of impulse control (e.g., risky behavior), a weak sense of who he is (thus acting differently around different people). Also, most BPDers experienced a trauma in early childhood (e.g., abuse or an emotionally unavailable mother) that stunted their emotional development. In addition, they tend to fall in love very quickly and mirror their partner's personality, making them feel like they have met their "soul mate." That honeymoon period, however, rarely lasts longer than six months.

 

If none of those traits sounds familiar, please ignore my post. If they generally do, however, you may want to read my overview of such traits in Inigo's thread, where the first of my two posts starts at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2826453#post2826453. Take care, Alisa.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Downtown

[AlisaMarie]

Downtown,

You nailed this one! Everything you said describes him to a T! Maybe I should forget him as a partner in life, but talk to him as a friend when I am emotionally ready. Everything you described is him... and that part that got me was when you said they mirror image their mate... he did that in relationships and with friendships. I knew in my heart it was beyond an immaturity thing. Thank you for all of your information. I still love him, and it still hurts- but now there is a little science to back up why I have been treated like this. Thank you!

[Downtown]

Alisa, I am glad to hear that the information is helpful. Like you, I found it enormously helpful when some folks gave it to me, so I am happy to pass it on. Also like you, I still love the BPDer person who used to be my W. Although she still lives here in the same city, I haven't spoken to her for over two years.

 

A person with strong BPD traits cannot handle a LTR unless they have many years of therapy to learn to control their feelings and traits. Moreover, they cannot handle a close friendship for the same reason. As a close friend, you will continue to pose a threat to your Ex because he will fear your abandonment of him and fear the engulfment caused by intimacy.

 

This means that you will continue to trigger one of those two fears, at which time he will turn on you in anger. And, as you already know too well, it takes only the most minor comment or action to do the triggering. What remains possible, then, is a casual friendship -- but I don't know how difficult that transition would be, given that you already are close in his mind. Just remember, anybody who (absent years of treatment) is incapable of trusting you is a person you will never be able to trust.

 

Moreover, you will never be able to build up a store of good will with an untreated BPDer because his feelings -- though intense -- are fleeting and shallow due to his inability to control emotions. Finally, none of what I say is intended to excuse his behavior because, at any time, he can choose to get better if he wants to. I am only trying to explain his behavior so you have a better understanding of what can be expected. Take care.

[AlisaMarie]

Downtown,

The info you gave me surely made me feel somewhat better about the situation. I read the article that you posted in the other thread and I couldn't believe how it described everything so close to home. When I was with this individual, I did know something wasn't right with his behavior. There is a difference between a douche and someone with mental problems. He has told me several times that he isn't right and his mind doesn't think like the normal person. I wish that I could bring myself to talk to him right now and help him help himself. One of the times that we got back together... I offered to go to couples counciling with him, and he said he would be willing to make things right between us, but after gaining this information...I see that he needs to do this on his own. So do you think that I should try to communicate and talk to him? Or am I just another victim in his pretend insecure world? I would actually like him to read that article... but I don't know how to even approach him at this point. It's almost been 2 weeks NC. I don't know... what do you think?

[Downtown]

He has told me several times that he isn't right and his mind doesn't think like the normal person.

Generally, even the high functioning BPDers (i.e., those with strong BPD traits like your Ex) know that something is wrong with them. And they generally realize that the image they are projecting is false, leaving them with a feeling of being a fake -- and fearing that their loved ones will find out they are not as strong as they pretend. IMO, partners who think this is manipulative don't realize the extent of their impairment. Because a BPDer fails to integrate his self concept as a child, he has been using others to center him all his life.

 

What is very unusual with you Ex, though, is that he had sufficient self awareness and courage to acknowledge that flaw to you. I mention this in case you ever decide to discuss it with him. If you do, tell him that his self awareness is a very good sign that he could do well in therapy if he chooses to go down that path.

I wish that I could bring myself to talk to him right now and help him help himself.... I would actually like him to read that article...

On all the BPD websites targeted to "Nons" like us, the consensus is that you should leave it up to the therapist to tell him because, given his inability to trust, he will not believe you. Instead, he likely will just project it back onto you, believing that you are the one with BPD.

 

That said, there was no way that I was going to walk away from my sick loved one without telling her what she is suffering from. So, knowing that there was little chance of it doing any good, I did tell her after we had separated. As expected, she projected it back onto me, so she now believes that -- in addition to my being a continual liar and physically abusive -- I also have BPD. Even so, it was worth a lot to me to have left no stone unturned and I thus have no regrets in having told her.

 

Given that he has acknowledged having a thought disorder (which is what BPD is), I would tell him if I were you. Or, to avoid having to break NC, I would order a book on the subject and have it mailed to him. One book that is popular with the self aware BPDers is "Borderline Personality Disorder Demystified" by Robert Friedel. I would avoid sending him a book targeted to us Non partners.

 

Having said that, I again caution you that doing so goes contrary to the conventional wisdom. I nonetheless think that breaking the rule may be okay in this situation because of his unusual admission to you. And, like I said, I chose to inform my exW even though she never had the self awareness that your Ex apparently has. But, to avoid being sucked back into the toxic relationship, you likely are much safer by sending him the book -- or giving it to a friend to hand to him. You are at great risk of being pulled back into that relationship if you break NC.

I offered to go to couples counciling with him, and he said he would be willing to make things right between us, but ....I see that he needs to do this on his own.

As I explained in other threads, couples counciling is worthless when one party suffers serious damage to his emotional core. So, yes, he will need several years -- probably 3 to 5 years before a substantial improvement in his behavior would be evident. I say this because, when a BPDer is acting good toward you, it is VERY VERY good -- which is why it is so difficult to leave them.

 

Hence, if he does start individual treatments, there likely will be many times over the next 3 years where he comes back pronouncing himself to be a changed man -- and he will believe it. Then you will learn, as you have on many prior occasions, that you have been pulled back into the toxic push-away and pull-back cycle -- and there has been little or no improvement at all. Indeed, if you decide to wait around for him to improve, I have no idea how you will ever know, given his ability to act wonderful for a period of several weeks. My exW, for example, failed to improve even though she was in weekly therapy (and bi-weekly couples counseling) for 15 years.

Am I just another victim in his pretend insecure world?

Yes, but you are not the only victim of that toxic relationship. It takes two willing parties to create a toxic relationship lasting a year. So you played a role just as much as he. Moreover, the toxicity harmed both of you, not just one of you. So he was a victim too.

 

I say this to explain the relationship dynamics to you so you can avoid repeating it again with someone else like him. Significantly, I am not trying to justify his behavior. The only way he can get better is to start taking responsibility for his own actions -- instead of going through life pretending to be a victim and blaming every misfortune on someone else.

 

This means that the people around him should stop walking on eggshells and sheltering him from the consequences of his own actions. Having to confront the logical consequences of his own nasty behavior (e.g., seeing you and other loved ones leave) is his only chance for deciding to confront his illness.

[AlisaMarie]

I tried to talk to him about it. Of course it blew up in my face. I think he's "nuts" and it brought out an almost scary empty side of him. While I discussed it- I told him that I came across this theory while I was trying to figure myself out. I told him to read up on it and maybe go to therapy. He refused and has been disgusted with me ever since. He even has been seeing someone else... a really odd choice too, but I guess that's how they work. I just don't want him to put her through what he did to me because at this point in their relationship, he's probably her hero and telling her what a crazy person I am... because that's what he did to me then bashed his ex. I feel like I am going crazy being a part of it but I don't even know how to disengage myself at this point!

[Downtown]

I think he's "nuts" and it brought out an almost scary empty side of him.

If he is really acting "nuts," it is not due to the BPD traits. BPDers generally are not psychotic. But I know so very well what you mean by the "scary empty side." I have seen it in my exW on a number of occasions. It happened when she flipped from liking me to hating me and it occurred within ten seconds.

While I discussed it- I told him that I came across this theory while I was trying to figure myself out. I told him to read up on it and maybe go to therapy.

Nice try. Sounds like you did it in the most gentle way possible. Like I said before, there was virtually no chance it would work but you at least have the satisfaction of having left no stone unturned in your effort to help him.

He's probably her hero and telling her what a crazy person I am...

You can bet on it. Like you did, she probably is finding that she is meshing with him "like butter melting on mashed potatoes." As I explained in Inigo's thread at the link above, a BPDer will mirror the person's personality during the honeymoon period. And, because he thinks of himself as a perpetual victim, he likely will blame you entirely for the breakup.

I feel like I am going crazy being a part of it but I don't even know how to disengage myself at this point!

Yes, it is extremely difficult to disengage from a BPDer because, when he was good, he was so VERY VERY good -- treating you with a passionate intensity that usually is only seen in children and emotionally unstable adults. Disengagement is more difficult, still, if you are codependent like I am. Codependents are so focused on helping others that they never learned to develop strong personal boundaries -- making it difficult to know where your needs/problems leave off and his begin. I also describe the codependency problem in Inigo's thread. I would be glad to discuss it further if you want. If you are having serious problems with it, you should consider seeing a therapist for a few sessions to get a professional opinion.

[AlisaMarie]

Downtown,

You should get paid for your advice! When he went "nuts" it was just like an enraged angry episode full of emotion, yet his eyes almost looked black as if he actually had no soul for a minute.

As for codependency, ahhh, yes- I am surely codependent. I am a fixer. I need them, I need to fix them, I can't live without them. However, I am one of those that is very independent about everything else except my emotions. I did read that codependent people latch on to BPDers because of that fufillment they give us durning the honeymoon phase. It took me a long time, but I understand that has gone out the window and I am only a trigger now. I told him today that I wanted to talk to him and he called, 4 times, and I ignored the call. I don't know why I did, I told him to call me... I just feel like I am beating a dead horse. Serioulsy, is there anything else I can do? And how should I act if I do break down and respond to him?

[Downtown]

I am one of those that is very independent about everything else except my emotions.

Most codependents that I've met are fiercely independent in nearly every other respect. It is not unusual, then, to find a codependent like us handling a full time job and then going home to take care of three children and five dogs -- and still find time to go out on weekends looking for a mate to take care of too.

I did read that codependent people latch on to BPDers because of that fufillment they give us durning the honeymoon phase.

Yes, they make us feel like we are knights on white horses who have swept in to rescue them. And we oblige by repeatedly rescuing them, never noticing that -- every time we pull them from the raging seas -- they jump right back into the water. As far as I can tell, what they want is not to be actually rescued but, rather, for us to participate in all the drama that supports their misguided belief that they are victims, always victims. Another "benefit" to us -- if we have problems dealing with intimacy -- is that we get regular mini-vacations from the intimacy every two weeks or so when the BPDer pushes us away.

he called, 4 times, and I ignored the call. I don't know why I did, I told him to call me... I just feel like I am beating a dead horse. Serioulsy, is there anything else I can do? And how should I act if I do break down and respond to him?

No, there is nothing else you can do because he is the only one who can fix himself (if he gets professional guidance). Your suggestions likely will be ignored because he probably is incapable of trusting you. If you break down and respond to him, it really does not matter much what you say as long as you hold firm in staying away from him. I say that because, no matter what impression you make in talking with him, its emotional significance to him will be washed aside by the next intense feeling sweeping over him. As I said, it is impossible to build up a store of good will with a BPDer. Instead, it is always "what have you done for me lately." Ideally, you will now go NC. If you fail to stay away, don't beat yourself up about it. Leaving a BPDer is so difficult -- especially for us codependents -- that it is more a process than a single event. It therefore is common for folks like us to try to leave a number of times before we are successful (i.e., is like quitting cigarettes in that regard). The most encouraging thing is that you started this process before a year had passed. In contrast, I stayed for 15 years and never would have left her -- she abandoned me.