bob4975 Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 (edited) Hi Everyone I apologize right now for the long post, I just need to get this out, if anyone does read until the end, god bless you I just signed up to this site yesterday but I have been reading threads for a while now and well I'm really in need of some help. I need other peoples opinion on my relationship My GF and I have been going out together for almost 2 years now with the exception of a two month span from November to January of this year where we were not together. We actually met at work shortly after I first started there. I saw her and thought she was so beautiful and had such a lively personality. We are both close in age, she is about to turn 24 and I am 23 and when we first started to go out things were amazing! I never thought I would meet someone in my life who I thought was as amazing and beautiful as this girl. We both had the same sense of humor, tastes in food, and we both loved doing a lot of the same things (watching movies for instance). Things were going great right from the start, sure there were a few bumpy arguements sometimes my fault and sometimes hers. Ok so maybe more my fault at times, but I was new at this relationship and well I might as well say it now this is my first serious relationship so I was new to a lot of things (IE// sometimes what not to say or do). At times we would have a fight and even if it wasn't my fault I would bend and give in and say things like "lets try and forget about it" but I think in the long run that was a big mistake on my part Anyways as time would go on last year things would be like a roller coaster, when they were great they were AMAZING. We would be so happy together going for walks, drives, just enjoying each others company. I couldn't wait for the weekend to come so we could spend time together. Yet when things got bad (a fight) they would turn horrible, sometimes she would hang up on me and not answer for days, I would call her each day and sometimes she would pick up if only to say a few words. As each day would pass we would talk a bit more until finally she would give in and we would spend time together and finally discuss what happened. We have had so many fights like this that I honestly cannot think of half the reasons for the fights anymore But around September things really started to change we began to fight more and more. The first big fight was when she thought I lied to her about going out and not wanting her to know, but in reality I had stayed home the entire night eaiting for her to return from a trip so we could spend time together (it was a friday night and we are both night owls - another thing in common) and after this night things just continued to get worse and honestly I'm not sure how to write it here. She had been lied to and cheated on in previous relationships and has at times when mad even told me that she thinks all men are the same; all wil lie and cheat. In the following months we would fight on average every 2nd week sometimes I would cause the fight and sometimes well sometimes I don't even know where the arguement started. I recall one fight where she thought I was calling her stupid when I made a comment on how hard it is to deal with people at work sometimes. She got so mad that she hit me twice. I Know that this point alone should be where I walked away but I didn't because I love her. After this fight she promised to never hit me again, and well so far so good (she had smacked me in the past but never as hard as this). I still think I ended up doing most of the apologizing even though I never meant for it to sound like I was calling her stupid. Shortly after this is where we had a fight that basically ended our relationship for 2 months. I used to play a lot of online games but until this point I was never told how uncomfortable she was with me playing these games. Anyways one night a person on this game came on to me, which I thought was funny in the first place since well it's a video game. So I laughed it off and just told the person on the game no thanks. The next day I told her about this and, yes i did expect a little but of unhappiness, well she told me it was over. She was mad at me for not telling her the night before (this happened at 11 or later in the night and at the time were note living together). I thought this was a bit much since well the way i look at it at least I was honest enough of a guy to tell her - I'm willing to bet there are a lot of guys out there who wouldn't even mention this. After this she said she gave me a choice stop playing these games or I lose her. So we argured as I didn't think it was fair for her to give me such an ultimatum. I know it sounds silly since it's a videogame but just picture it as if someone was asked to give up playing golf, or listening to certain kinds of music. Gaming is just a hobby of mine. For nearly a month and a half she would not talk to me or answer my calls, I know I should have taken the hint but I didn't want to lose her, so I would call just about every day. I got desperate, I know that is the worst thing to do but well when you are calm it's a lot easier to see that. Many of my friends and family told me to give up but well for some reason I just couldn't, I regretted acting so desperately. I gave up on all my video games just to show her that I loved her that much (my family has told me I should have never done that). When she finally did answer my calls she insisted that it was over and that she was going to find a 'real man'. I was ultimately crushed by this and began to move on. But less than a week later she texted me (when things were happy we would always be texting each other)asking if we could talk. Part of me wanted to say no but another part of me jumped at the opportunity as I wanted to see her so badly. So we talked, I picked her up in my car and we drove around a bit and talked some more. Finally as the night ended she asked me if I wanted to give it another try, and happily I said yes. I have heard so many stories of how people have horrible experiences like this but have reconciled to relationships that were so much stronger then before. So we got back together and took things slow at first, we talked about various things like how video games were something I would like to do in my spare time (I never once ignored her, or anyone, to play a video game) and wanted to continue to play some of these online games as I have close friends who live hours away who play these games as well and I can keep in touch with them easily. (These are my closest friends, ones I have grown up with from Junior School onward). And she seemed ok with it, her reasoning for her reactions before were that she easily becomes jealous and was fearful that someone would come on to me and I would fall for them. This to me makes me feel as if she thinks I would easily cheat on her - something I would never do or even think of, something I have constantly tried to reassure her of. I even made a promise to make sure to tell her things right away and to tell her everything (she felt I was hiding things and that was why it took me so long to tell her). She has always had an issue with trust, she has told me many times how so many guys in her past have lied to her. She values the truth more than anything. And every time we have a fight her response is I was really starting to trust you and now that's gone. We have had so many fights where she thinks I am out to hurt her, she reacts as if she does not trust me. We have talked about this many times before where I have told her if you do not have trust you cannot have love. Yet only a week after this she once again accused me of lying to her and I had enough it felt as if she was snooping on me since she began asking me about phone calls I would make on my cell phone. A few days passed and she begged me to forgive her and promised she would change and trust me more. For two months things were going fantastic after that, I mean perfect. Sure a few small arguements but nothing even noteworthy (more on the lines of no lets not do that tonight - but I want to do this, blah blah blah sort of things). Around the second month we decided to look for a place to move into together. This is something she had always wanted and I felt this was the time. I'm in love with her, and I wanted to spend even more time with her and I wanted to show her that she can trust me. Up until this point she was living at home with her parents (they are very protective of her). So for the first two weeks things were a bit rocky as she was feeling homesick and there was a lot of adjusting to do. We were both used to doing things a certain way and there was a bit of compromising to be done. But shortly after that is when things really took a turn for the worse... We began having these huge explosive fights. There were fights when I would want to go and spend a few hours with a friend to watch a sports game on a week night or if she felt I was going to spend too much time with my parents (I'm close with my family and I don't think that stopping in for a half hour here or there is a bad thing - my father is ill so I want to be with him at times). There have been fights where if I didn't mention a particular thing from throughout my day that she would automatically accuse me of lying to her (if I had a busy day and mention 99 things but don't mention #100 then I don't want her to know about something). If I was talking to a coworker the week before and mentioned it a week later she wants to know what day, if I cannot remember what day (lots of people talk to coworkers daily) she demands that I tell her and if I say I don't remember she will go through each day saying "it was tuesday wasn't it!?". We fight about such simple silly things that I'm almost embarassed to mention them. Also lately she has been becomming more jealous of late over other coworkers. The second I start to talk to a female co-worker and mention that person at home then I have become 'obsessed' with that person. I remember saying I can't wait for you to see 'person x's' new car it looks awesome. That sentance started an arguement. Many of our fights have ended with one of us saying 'it's over' but neither of us have actually followed through with it. She constantly reassures me that I will never find anyone else who loves me as much as she does, or anyone who will treat me as good but my question is if someone loves you so much, would they really want to fight this much? My family and friends have told me time and time again to just get out of this relationship as it is not a healthy or very happy one. Many times I have agreed but each time I convince myself that things will change, but they never do. I love this girl so much but all of the fighting has just placed such a stress on me. We have been living together for almost 4 months now but things don't seem to be getting any better. It's even gotten to the point that she will not pay the internet bill as she 'does not use it - only to check the weather and watch some youtube' which I don't agree with but well I still pay the bill. There have been times when I wanted to leave but just couldn't bring myself to do it, I don't want to hurt her feelings. The other month we mutally agreed to end things but before the night ended she was crying begging me not to abandon her. I'm sorry if this post was nothing but a jumble but it was so hard for me to get out. If I made myself seem like I'm looking for peoples pity then that is not what I am looking for, like I said I have been the cause of a few fights but still I don't think I have warrented a lot of the fights, or possibly even described in detail the extent of these fights. I just want someone elses opinion on this. Other people have used words to me like 'demanding' and wanting to be 'in control of everything - wanting to know your every move'. Sometimes i do feel like this but I was just wondering if anyone else can give me their opinion. Thank-you Edited June 8, 2010 by bob4975 fixed font tags
Feelin Frisky Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Sorry, I couldn't make it through all those HTML tags which complicate reading your long post. But if the issue is cyclicle fights with your GF, such rarely gets better. Make up your mind while you're still young and simply accept that this can't work because of irreconcilable differences. You don't want to keep something going where cyclicle fights turn into sustained contempt. No nookie is worth that.
Author bob4975 Posted June 8, 2010 Author Posted June 8, 2010 Thanks Frisky, I think I managed to clean up the html tags (I guess that's what you get for doing a copy and paste). Cycling fights is definitely a good way of putting it and I know this rarely gets better but am I being neive to constantly think it will get better? These fights are rarely about the exact same issue but always have the same underlying issues. To be honest I'm unsure what sustained contempt means but it don't sound too good. This girl is my first real love (think I might have missed mentioning that in the first post) and I am afraid to be alone again, but people constantly assure me there are people out there for me. . .
RedRussian Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 What drives your actions is fear bro. You must NEVER be afraid to lose a woman, because your actions through fear will not be yours. She seems to be abusive to you on emotional level, what you should do without fear, next time she stars her tantrums, is say "HEY! if you will not stop with your BS I will leave" And just go take a walk if she snaps at you for that. DO this every time, don't feed the troll, don't let her turn it on you and make sure SHE can see that you have no fear of her lose, let her fear to lose you as you are a real man who takes no Sh*T from anyone. You must be ready to walk if she does it again, she will relapse and say sorry this and that and it will get better for a week or two but then it will be all over again. You must be firm and never say sorry for things you not guilty of, no matter how crazy she gets.
Author bob4975 Posted June 8, 2010 Author Posted June 8, 2010 What drives your actions is fear bro. You must NEVER be afraid to lose a woman, because your actions through fear will not be yours. She seems to be abusive to you on emotional level, what you should do without fear, next time she stars her tantrums, is say "HEY! if you will not stop with your BS I will leave" And just go take a walk if she snaps at you for that. DO this every time, don't feed the troll, don't let her turn it on you and make sure SHE can see that you have no fear of her lose, let her fear to lose you as you are a real man who takes no Sh*T from anyone. You must be ready to walk if she does it again, she will relapse and say sorry this and that and it will get better for a week or two but then it will be all over again. You must be firm and never say sorry for things you not guilty of, no matter how crazy she gets. Thanks for your response. I know that showing this fear is a big mistake and pretty much right from the start I made this mistake. There has been more than one time when I said 'I don't want to lose you'. It does feel abusive at times, its felt like she has been putting me down. A large part of me already wants to walk away from this, and a lot of my fear is of just not wanting to be alone, and just not knowing how to walk away. I've been rejected before but I've never been the one to say "this is not going to work out". I know, I've seen this trend enough, things go great again for a while but the second I do something she does not like then it's world war 3 all over.
RedRussian Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 It seems you know well enough what to do bro, I have said things like " i don't want to lose you" before and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan what an error, never again i say! Show no fear and have no fear, so you be single for a bit, big deal, go to gym, work out, take classes, finish that game you wanted to play, read a book, go clubbing, take your mind off fear and just focus on your self in a positive way. This woman is not best part of your life bro, she is just there in case you wish to include her and bless her with your awesome self. Let this little girl go, she is not grown up yet. Be strong, remember all the nasty things she says to you every time you feel weak.
reservoirdog1 Posted June 8, 2010 Posted June 8, 2010 Oh god, reading your post brought back memories of my 2-year relationship that ended in July 2008. We both had kids from past relationships and lived together, but a lot of what you describe is similar. Lots of good times, no doubt about it... but LOTS of fighting, dealing with her jealousy, fights erupting on those few occasions when I wanted to spend time outside the home with friends... I feel a bit ill thinking about that. When I ended it, I hadn't been the "dumper" either -- at least not with respect to a major relationship. Wasn't any kind of fun. And I definitely had to endure a lot of phone and email shyt from her as I extricated myself. But -- and not to sound cruel -- it was absolutely the best thing. When I was no longer living there and was my own person again, I felt like I'd just been paroled. Sure, I was alone -- but I was able to reconnect with my friends and family, rediscover interests I'd put aside, get involved in new things... my life has been far, far better. And yours will be too.
Author bob4975 Posted June 10, 2010 Author Posted June 10, 2010 Thank-you all for your input regarding this everyone. I really appreciate it. We had another fight on Tuesday night, I ended the relationship. This is by far the hardest and most painful thing I have ever done, I feel so relieved right now but at the same time I feel so empty but I know that I'm doing the right thing, it will be so hard on my for a while I know but hopefully I don't live to regret this. If anyone is interested I wrote a bit of a jumble here: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2835425#post2835425
Hop_prophet Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 Geez, I thought I had major problems in my relationship. No offense but your ex was a total nutjob. She actually got pissed for you spending 30 minutes with your ill father?!?!! That takes the cake. She would have continued to slowly suffocate you until you had no joy left in your life. I know you don't feel good now but you will. Congrats on taking control of your life and refusing to be that woman's lapdog. It takes a lot of courage to break things off like that. Oh and BTW I would not be surprised if she starts stalking you so be prepared.
that girl Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Obviously this relationship should end. Not only do you fight constantly but she HIT you. But looking at the big picture of what can you learn from future relationships (since that seems like something you are concerned about), this whole long story is pretty vague. I don't even get what you are fighting about all the time- sometimes fighting is a sign of a bad match, sometimes fighting is a sign of someone being too controlling, sometimes fighting is a sign of one person being thoughtless, etc. GF doesn't sound like a winner but one of the things about these boards is we are always hearing only one side, some relationships are unhealthy from both sides. I do think she way overreacted to some random person hitting on you in game, but I do not at all agree with the idea that she should be grateful that most guys wouldn't even tell her. Lots of people have unhealthy, unhappy relationships. Judging yourself by the crappy things other people do is not a good plan. On the whole "not wanting to lose someone," I disagree with the other posters. With someone who is a geniune catch, not just attractive but also kind, thoughtful and loyal, you should think "I don't want to lose you." And if push comes to shove over a reasonable issue, be willing to make a sacrifice to keep them. This relationship doesn't seem at all like something you should be worried about losing, but that doesn't mean that you should never be afraid to lose someone. Some people are worth compromise and sometimes it is reasonable for someone else to say "you need to change this or I'm walking." This "show no fear, never compromise" advice is half bluster and half recipe for unhappiness. But yeah, you need to break up with this girl.
Author bob4975 Posted June 11, 2010 Author Posted June 11, 2010 Obviously this relationship should end. Not only do you fight constantly but she HIT you. But looking at the big picture of what can you learn from future relationships (since that seems like something you are concerned about), this whole long story is pretty vague. I don't even get what you are fighting about all the time- sometimes fighting is a sign of a bad match, sometimes fighting is a sign of someone being too controlling, sometimes fighting is a sign of one person being thoughtless, etc. GF doesn't sound like a winner but one of the things about these boards is we are always hearing only one side, some relationships are unhealthy from both sides. I do think she way overreacted to some random person hitting on you in game, but I do not at all agree with the idea that she should be grateful that most guys wouldn't even tell her. Lots of people have unhealthy, unhappy relationships. Judging yourself by the crappy things other people do is not a good plan. On the whole "not wanting to lose someone," I disagree with the other posters. With someone who is a geniune catch, not just attractive but also kind, thoughtful and loyal, you should think "I don't want to lose you." And if push comes to shove over a reasonable issue, be willing to make a sacrifice to keep them. This relationship doesn't seem at all like something you should be worried about losing, but that doesn't mean that you should never be afraid to lose someone. Some people are worth compromise and sometimes it is reasonable for someone else to say "you need to change this or I'm walking." This "show no fear, never compromise" advice is half bluster and half recipe for unhappiness. But yeah, you need to break up with this girl. Hi that girl, thanks for your input. I think I may have said things wrong in an earlier post but while yes in the future of course I want to be in a relationship again but right now that is definitely not what I am looking for. This woman has meant a lot to me and there is no way I could easily replace her (this is why everything is so hard for me). I do agree that this is only one side of the story, something I fully understand what you are saying which is why a few times I tried to say that yes some of these fights are my fault too. There have been many times that she would agree with me when I said this relationship is not healthy or very stressful. I understand what you are saying with not judging by what other garbage people do to others. Just from my view I came to her and i told her about the incident and well yes I expected her to be mad but to pretty much not talk to me for a long time I still don't think that was a good thing. I too do believe that when you genuinely love and care about someone that it is ok to think and feel 'i don't want to lose you' but I think by saying it too often after a fight does cause issues in the long run of things. Multiple times after a fight she would say thing along the lines of "I knew you would give in because in your heart you know you love me". Which yes she was right about but at the same time to me it always sounded like "i know you will give in". Yes when someone is worth it giving up certain things is more than understandable and I fully agree but at the same time what is the limit on this? If someone loves you they will accept you for who you are, for the person you are which is what I thought was happening when this relationship first started but the more time I have to think about it the more she has tried to change me. Heck maybe I am guilty of the same things without even realizing it but at the same time I don't think I am. Sometimes I would change or do things to show "hey I do love you and we can work on this and you can trust me" but that trust never did show up. Thanks again to everyone for their input, I appreciate it.
paddington bear Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 She's controlling. She doesn't trust you. She's a drama queen. You are in the cycle of abuse my friend. When things are good, they are great, which keeps you there, hoping things will stay that way. Then she goes nuts, you are in hell, but keep hoping things will get better. They do (temporarily), and then the whole cycle starts all over again. Whatever happened in a previous relationship gave her trust issues, happened, but it does not give her an excuse to behave the way she is behaving now. You have shown her that you are trustworthy and instead her mistrust has escalated for no reason. Isolating you from your family and friends is what abusive, controlling, emotionally damaged people do. You might love her, but she is not good for you. Get out. You are not responsible for her dysfunctional approach to your relationship. You cannot make her change by stopping seeing your friends, family, stopping playing computer games, doing whatever she wants. No matter what you do, her behaviour will continue. If this relationship ends, be prepared for her to beg you to come back, seem like a changed person, only for the same behaviour to happen all over again. Ignore her begging you not to abandon her. There would be no need to even consider abandoning her, if she behaved like a normal, emotionally healthy human being. She has to take responsibility for her own actions and words, and the consequences of them. If you break it off, you will be painted as the bad guy who destroyed her. Ignore that. You will be a person who rightfully got himself out of an incredibly unhealthy relationship. It is up to her, on her own to figure out appropriate and normal behaviour. You hanging around while she behaves like this is just teaching her that she can do and say whatever the hell she likes and you'll still be there, or still come running back. Be selfish, look after your own emotional needs - she sure doesn't care about the effect her behaviour is having on you and your life. Read this (there are plenty of other articles on the internet along the same theme) http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/when-love-hurts-the-emotionally-abused-man/
Author bob4975 Posted June 11, 2010 Author Posted June 11, 2010 Thanks for the replies. You are right paddington she does not trust me, in moments of anger she has even told me this yet after each 'breakup/get back" she has promised to work on this, to keep trying but the second we have a fight the result is "I was just starting to trust you and now you have gone and done this and I can't trust you!" You hit the nail on the head about the cycle, things go amazing but then everything goes out the window. But yes she had been mistreated in past relationships, she told me that she was lied to on multiple occasions which is why I kept saying to myself just a bit more and she will start to trust me. . . Thank you for the link, I read through it and saw a few things that really do fit the description of what I have been going though. There have been times when I was almost in a panic because I was afraid that when I tell her what I have been up to or if I forget one detail of my day that we would get into another fight. And now I am going to talk about what I did last night, a mistake I made. I wanted to wait a bit and let it all process before I wrote about it. Last night I turned my phone on and replied to her texts asking her to understand it was over, I told her that I would love to be her friend and I will always be there for her as her friend but that the relationship could not continue. She asked me over and over again if we could just talk and I told her I would talk to her as her friend. So I went to her to talk, as soon as I was in the door I told her clearly that I was there only to be her friend and that things are over. She nodded as if to agree but the second we sat down to talk it all went out the window. I regret ever going to talk because it made me feel a million times worse. She began to cry and constantly beg me to take her back, she promised that she wouldn't get jealous anymore and that she would let me do "my own thing" that she would accept me for me if I can accept her for her. This is what killed me, only now is she saying she will love me for me. After two years and now she makes a promise I know she can't keep because we have been down this road so many times before. It got so bad that I had to get up to leave and that is when she grabbed me to hold and hug me and I did hug her back but I had to keep telling her no it was over. I felt like the devil because I never wanted to hurt her, i mean obviously it's going to be hard on her, heck it's killing me inside but I know she is strong enough that after a while she will be ok. She told me that I was killing her because I was breaking her heart, inever wanted to hear this but I can't go back, not now. So I finally left, i felt worse than when I went there but I felt like ****. Last night before going to bed I checked my phone and there were many texts asking me for another chance, just one more try but I can't do that I just can't. Can anyone tell me if I am being cold hearted or if I am doing the right thing? I have to contact her again tonight, just to let her know I'll be coming to get my things tomorrow, a friend is going to help me pack everything up. Thank you to everone who has responded to my messages, you have no idea how greatful I am to you all.
paddington bear Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Your situation is close to my heart because someone (male) I cared for got repeatedly sucked back into a dysfunctional relationship with an emotionally abusive other half - who also tried the same tricks on me, which got so bad that it sent me to therapy. It's not the same situation as you, but when I couldn't cope with this person's anger, manipulation any more, I just shut down and hid, and got bombarded with non-stop emails, many which said what a mean person I was, how could I do this, she had tried to apologise. It got so bad that I started shaking every time I opened my inbox. I showed my therapist some of the emails and she said 'she's trying to emotionally manipulate you and guilt trip you, don't fall for it'. It's hard in your circumstances because there was and still are feelings for this woman here. But...people who are controlling, and from the little you wrote it is clear that your now ex girlfriend is controlling, any attempt at you to leave them throws them into a spin. Take comfort in the fact that part of her distress is not just from losing you, the person she claims to love, but losing control over someone. And you don't want to be controlled. As I said earlier, she will promise the sun moon and stars to you right now to get you to change your mind, will guilt trip you, make you feel like the lowest, piece of crap on earth for doing this to her. Somehow you will have to rise above whatever comes out of her mouth. Just because she says it, does not mean it is true. Think of it this way, if she is feeling this bad, is hysterical over the breakup, she has caused herself this pain by her own words and actions. When she guilt trips you, those words should really be directed at herself. I have been dumped numerous times and every time I have accepted it. I may have cried, I may have said that I wished the guy felt differently, but ultimately if someone does not want to be with you any more, you cannot force them to think or feel differently. Her not accepting that both for you and her that the relationship is not functioning is another form of control over you, trying to force you to do what she wants you to do instead of treating you as an individual. I'm begging you, beyond contacting her to say that the friend is going to get your things, do NOT respond to any other pleading, guilt tripping, you are breaking my heat messages. If you are leaving, she's going to bring you down with her and make you feel as bad as possible about it. Don't fall for it. I know you feel like the bad guy here, but seriously in a month or two you will realise that you did the right thing. If it is any consolation you are helping her by leaving her. She has to learn to deal with her issues herself, without your presence there supporting her increasingly irrational behaviour. Ultimately, you cannot change her and the most important person in your life is YOU, not her. How can you care for someone when your mind is a hell? You need to look after yourself and recuperate from this relationship and the time has come to be selfish. I broke off one long term relationship and the guy begged and pleaded and promised me the world, and curled up into a ball on my mother's kitchen floor crying. A month later he was dating someone else. Just keep that in mind. You said it yourself, she will be ok in a month or two. It might be worth reading some threads on here about the NC no contact rule. Particularly in this instance. This girl will keep trying to get you to change your mind, will not give up and if you speak with her, email her, keep in contact, she will get to you eventually. My advice would be to tell her that you need a break from all contact with her for a while, and should you wish then speak with her in a couple of months when you can see things more clearly and without her attempting constantly to change your mind. Sorry to sound harsh, but I've seen this exact behaviour in action and can see what's coming your way. You have to be strong. Gather your friends and family around and get them to help you to be strong if you feel you are faltering, or come on LS and write about it (that has helped me a lot in the past). Best of luck and make sure to keep the conversation (or text message) short and sweet and disengage from any attempts to discuss matters further. You have stated your case, I know you feel s**tty and a bad guy, but don't change your mind. All you are being is an emotionally healthy person whose boundaries have been crossed once too often.
Author bob4975 Posted June 11, 2010 Author Posted June 11, 2010 Paddington, Thank you so much for posting what you did, right now more than ever I needed some reassurance I turned my phone on today when I returned from work and I was bombarded with texts saying things like I know we can work through this, I know you have to be hurting inside too so if you are hurting why are you doing this? But the text I just received then is what hurts the most she said I want us to try again, all I have is you and all you have is me so what do we have to lose? That made me feel like she thinks so little of me as to say that I have no one else. I have my family, and although most of them live a few hours away I have my friends. I want this to be over and i want her to understand that. All I want to do tonight is send her one last message saying that I am serious about this being over and tomorrow my friend and I will be coming to pick up my things but I'm finding that so hard because I know that the second I do that I will be bombarded with messages like last night saying please can we talk? I don't want that and it kills me but I must stand up to that. I'm sick to my stomach here just thinking about it. Believe me when I say this, I too have/am in the same boat as you are with the stress. When we fight and she comes back to the apartment or sometimes if she just asks a question I get so stressed out. My heart races and my chest pounds and my hands shake, they shake so bad at times. My closest and best friend (practically grew up together) even tells me that sure it will be hard now but be strong and I will get through this. Thing is I'm weak. I'm trying my best to be strong, I know this is over but what is making this so hard on me now is knowing that I am hurting her, I just want this to end, I have told her multiple times now that this is what I want but she will not accept it. This is what is killing me. I know I have to be strong, I'm already trying to plan out my days for the next while to keep me busy, no definite plans just "i can do this one day and that the next". I know this is going to be hard but it's what I want to do. I never thought I would be doing it (especially if you ask me a year ago because things were so amazing) but I know now that I am. Thank you again, if only for a bit your words made me feel so much better. I'm feeling sick to my stomach now because I have to send her a message saying it's over and to please stop.
Author bob4975 Posted June 11, 2010 Author Posted June 11, 2010 Y It's not the same situation as you, but when I couldn't cope with this person's anger, manipulation any more, I just shut down and hid, and got bombarded with non-stop emails, many which said what a mean person I was, how could I do this, she had tried to apologise. It got so bad that I started shaking every time I opened my inbox. I forgot to mention this but I have the same issue, just it's my phone and not my inbox. . .well maybe the inbox on my phone. When we would fight whenever I would hear my phone make a noise or hear a noise that sounded like my phone I could just hear my blood pressure rising. Clearly it's not healthy.
paddington bear Posted June 12, 2010 Posted June 12, 2010 How did you get on? I agree with sadintexas. It could well be that she has BPD - if this is the case with this girl, I read that on leaving and just after leaving thrm is when there will be the most trouble from them. So, if you are suffering from accusations etc. just be aware it will only continue like this for a little while longer and then will stop. And also wanted to say, that when the dust has settled from this, to take the time to examine yourself. It seems like nice, sensitive people often end up with - putting it politely - not so nice sensitive people who use their sensitivity against them. Might be wise to figure out what thought procesess you had when this behaviour of hers started, and if there were red flags you ignored, just so you don't end up in the same situation again with someone else - this can end up a pattern and if you don't want to end up with someone who acts similarly you need to figure out what behaviour of yours you can change to prevent that. You are not weak, just in a vulnerable position right now and will feel stronger in a while - you need space and time to think, or even not think away from you ex/girlfriend and then things will seem much clearer with emotional distance. In any case, I hope you managed to see it through without too much drama and it is good that your old friend is there for you.
Author bob4975 Posted June 12, 2010 Author Posted June 12, 2010 Well I sent her the message last night asking her to please stop this. That i would be he friend and that's it and that tomorrow (which is now today) me and my friend were coming to pick my things up. She responded with a single message that she knows that I have made up my mind, but she still loves me and does not think us breaking up is the right thing to do and that she misses me. And that was her last message. It makes me feel so bad right now but I am glad that was her last message. Obviously I do miss her too but at the same time when I don't think about things I feel so much better. Last night i did a bunch of things to keep myself busy, I even went for a long drive and did a tiny bit of shopping but I think the shopping did me worse than good. I live in a smaller area and there are not a lot of stores here so I ended up going to the store we (me and my ex) would go to a lot, I was glad to buy a few things for myself but at the same time I thought more and more about her. About all the things I am going to miss, but I tried to reassure myself that I may miss things but at least I won't be under the stress of all the fighting and mistrust. I will be strong and get through this. Today is going to be extremely hard for me. I went for a drive this morning and she is still at the apartment. I was hoping she would at least give me the decency of leaving for the afternoon to allow me to get my things in peace but something tells me she is going to stay there the whole time. I have way too much stuff there for just my friend to pick up (bed, couch, etc. most of the stuff in the apartment is mine) so I'm going to have to face her today for sure, and it's going to be for a few hours at least, so much stuff to pack up. This has my head running in circles. I don't even know if I should message her one last time just to say "im coming to get my stuff" or just show up. I think I will just show up, she will know it's me by the big van. Another killer, I couldn't get a truck so I got a van to move my stuff, going to take more than one trip for sure. Not so good at all. Thanks for the support again. I'm not trying to say I am a perfect person, cause everyone has faults but well I don't think I'm that bad of a guy and I try to treat people as nicely as I can and maybe i did ignore some of the signs because I just wanted to be with her and be happy, so I well I rolled over and died on arguments when I should have stood my ground. Maybe. I don't know. Thanks again to you all for your support, I know in reality that I'm writing to no one person in particular but it just helps relieve the stress and when you all respond well it means a lot to me. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
ADF Posted June 12, 2010 Posted June 12, 2010 I think the way you write is a good reflection of why you fight. Your post isn't long because it needs to be. It is long because you are unable to distinguish between important information and extraneous detail. You give every fact equal weight, regardless of how much it really matters. You can't leave anything alone. Everything, everything, everything needs to be dealt with. In your writing, that results in a narrative than rambles on needlessly and where details choke each other out like weeds in a poorly tended garden. In your relationship, that mean you've developed a dynamic where neither of you can let anything go. Everything matters just as much as everything else. And nothing--NOTHING--it too trivial to fight about.
Author bob4975 Posted June 12, 2010 Author Posted June 12, 2010 Thanks for your opinion ADF. I do think you are right on that, maybe we are both guilty of this but I do know there were times when I wanted to let things go but she just would not. I think that is the reason why some of our fights would escalate to the extent that they did but like I said I may have been guilty of this too. I just sent her a message to let her know that me and my friend will be coming to pack/pick up my things in a few hours. I think I did the right thing there since at least she won't be caught off guard and well maybe she will leave the apartment for a bit before we get there. I hope.
Confusedalways Posted June 12, 2010 Posted June 12, 2010 Wow. This sounds like a complete nightmare. You definitely did the right thing in breaking up with her. You are WAY TOO YOUNG to have that kind of drama in your life. That was a completely unhealthy relationship. I sincerely hope you plan to cut her out of your life forever.
Downtown Posted June 12, 2010 Posted June 12, 2010 Bob, I agree with Sad that it sounds like your exGF has strong traits of BPD (borderline personality disorder). BPDers have a strong fear of engulfment and abandonment. Hence, when you draw close to her and become intimate, she will feel engulfed by your strong personality and feel like she is disappearing. Being that close to you is very frightening because her self image is very fragile and unstable, having been nearly destroyed by the time she was 3 or 4. This is why, after every great evening or intimate encounter, she would push you away the next morning -- if not that same night -- by creating a fight "over nothing." This is why you two had so many fights over issues so tiny that you cannot even recall what they were. Yet, as you backed off to give her breathing room, you triggered her other great fear -- fear of abandonment. She therefore would become all sweet and enticing to pull you back into the relationship. This push-you-away and pull-you-back behavior is one of the hallmarks of BPD. With my exW, I spent 15 years trying to find the "Goldilocks position" mid-way between "too close" and "too far away." It took me that long to learn that, if it exists at all, it is a knife edge that is continually shifting. Moreover, your exGF likely is incapable of trusting you or anyone else because the ability to trust also was destroyed in early childhood. This would explain why she is so jealous of your spending time with any friends or family members. My exW was the same way, to the point that she was even jealous of girls I had dated decades earlier. Significantly, this combination of fearing abandonment and lacking trust means BPDers cannot sustain LTRs unless they work hard to control their disorder in years of therapy. Sadly, very few of them seek therapy because -- having such weak self images -- it is too painful for them to acknowledge that they have a flaw. This is why your exGF likely was blaming everything on you all the time. Because it is so painful for you to walk away from a loved one who is sick, I strongly recommend that you read an article that clearly explains why it is important for you to do exactly that, i.e., to leave the toxic relationship. It is at http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/10_beliefs.pdf. This article has given comfort to many men like you and me, who had to walk away from a toxic relationship. I believe it is important that you learn the red flags for recognizing this disorder because I suspect that, like me, you have a caretaker personality and thus will be attracted to other vulnerable women like your exGF. The danger is that you will run from her arms right into the arms of another just like her. Believe me, that is very easy to do. Because they have no stable self image, a BPDer will mirror your personality for about six months when you are first dating her. It will make you feel like you have met your "soul mate." Moreover, because they have the emotional development of a four-year-old, they have a child-like warmth and passion that is "catnip" to caregivers like us. So please be careful and learn to establish stronger personal boundaries, as I have learned to do.
paddington bear Posted June 12, 2010 Posted June 12, 2010 Downtown, just curious, did you split from your wife of 15 years eventually? And if so, what was the final straw or trigger that made you see the light? And trying to walk that knife-edge...how come you stayed for so long (I get the caregiver mentality) but was there something else there that made you persist in what I can imagine was a stressful situation? (OP sorry for the thread-jack) I'm asking because despite being now isolated forever from my once good friend by his BPD wife I would like to hope, for his sake, that one day he might break free - I'd be happy to think that that was somehow possible - and am just pondering what the chances of that are since she has alienated everyone 'normal' from his life and has total control over all forms of his communication, emails, phones, and constant interruptions checking up on his whereabouts when she's not physically there with him? Do you need someone else to help you think straight and gently alter your way of thinking of how the relationship is and what is and isn't normal or right, or in the midst of this kind of relationship can you still manage to think rationally and work it out for yourself that something is very wrong and abnormal?
Downtown Posted June 13, 2010 Posted June 13, 2010 Paddington, like Sad, you really nailed it on the head when advising Bob to learn what it is that caused him to stay so long and put up with the verbal and physical abuse. A therapist who has treated many BPD couples says that BPD relationships typically last either 18 months or 15 years. They last 18 months, he explains, when the Non has strong personal boundaries. The Non enjoys the 6 month honeymoon period of mirroring and then is willing to spend up to a year trying to reestablish the honeymoon conditions. Then he bails. The toxic relationship lasts 15 years, he explains, when the Non has strong codependency traits and thus has low personal boundaries. Such a Non typically never bails. Instead, the BPD leaves him because, as the years go by, she becomes increasingly resentful of his inability to make her happy or fix her. Also, she will become increasingly fearful of abandonment as age takes its toll on her appearance. This explanation struck a strong chord with me because my relationship lasted 15 years, at which time my wife abandoned and betrayed me. So, to answer your question, Paddington, I never was willing to leave. Doing so would have gone against my family's values, my religious beliefs, and every fiber of my being. For caretakers like me, the notion of walking out on a sick loved one is anathema. Instead, I spent over $200,000 taking my exW to six different therapists for weekly visits during that 15 year period -- all to no avail. Therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. I'm afraid that this response does not bode well for your male friend unless someone explains to him what he is dealing with (more about that below). If he were willing to leave the toxic relationship after 18 months or less -- as Bob has successfully done -- his codependency traits likely would be at a low level and he would have established personal boundaries strong enough to protect himself. Yet, because he has done none of those things, your friend likely is very codependent like me and thus is likely to follow my misguided path. Paddington, I also like your advice to Bob about him not being weak. Indeed, I would even say that your male friend -- who likely is far more codependent than Bob -- is not weak. "Codependency" is such a misleading, badly named term. Most codependents I've met are fiercely independent in nearly all respects. They are the type of folks who will be working full time, going home to take care of three kids and five dogs, and still find time to go out on weekends looking for a spouse to take care of too. So, as you say, weakness is not the problem for codependents like your friend and me. Instead, the problem is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the person we already are). Hence, the problem is not that we want to help people but, rather, that we keep doing so even when it is to our great detriment. This arises from our mistaken belief -- learned in childhood from our parents -- that being needed is the same thing as being loved.Do you need someone else to help you think straight and gently alter your way of thinking of how the relationship is and what is and isn't normal or right, or in the midst of this kind of relationship can you still manage to think rationally and work it out for yourself that something is very wrong and abnormal?Yes, your friend likely needs help. The Nons who are caught up in long-term toxic relationships with BPDers need information because nothing in our society prepares them for such a calamity. Indeed, I believe information about personality disorders should be taught in school to 18 year olds so they have a prayer's chance of avoiding such a relationship when they are starting to date. Instead, our culture is full of codependent type thinking in songs and movies, e.g., "love heals all," "you had me with hello," and "love means never having to say you're sorry." Sadly, he is not likely to get that information from marriage counselors, who are trained to teach communication skills which fall far short of what is needed when one spouse has a personality disorder. And he may not get it from a psychologist, who may diagnose BPD as one of the associated symptoms (e.g., depression or bipolar disorder) because insurance companies usually cover some symptoms but not BPD itself. Moreover, the psychologist may never tell the BPDer the true diagnosis because BPDers typically drop out of therapy on hearing that dreaded label. I therefore suggest that you purchase a classic book on BPD targeted to the Non partners (e.g., "Stop Walking on Eggshells") and leave it where your friend is sure to see it. I am sure that, if he were receptive to hearing your views on the matter, you would already be talking to him about it. After he understands how his wife has a thought disorder that is distorting her perceptions of him, he will be more receptive to information about his codependency. But I suggest starting with something that explains BPD because, until he understands that he is living with an abusive sick woman who cannot be fixed by him, he likely will not believe he is codependent. Moreover, he should get a professional's evaluation of the situation. He therefore should see his own psychologist, who will speak candidly with him about his W's BPD as long as he is treating only your friend. Finally, do not worry about his being unable to recognize BPD traits. This is not rocket science. All healthy human beings have all nine BPD traits, albeit at a low level. We therefore can quickly recognize strong patterns of those traits when they occur in another person -- as long as someone tells us what the nine traits are so we know what to look for. Of the nine traits, the most intimidating -- by far -- is the trait called splitting (i.e., dissociation). Yet, you can learn to spot splitting without having a PhD in psychology because you already are very familiar with it. This is something that we all did regularly at three years of age and still do occassionally as adults. You experience it, for example, when you are driving and suddenly realize that you cannot remember anything about the past ten miles, not even passing through intersections with stop lights. It also occurs when you reach to open the refrigerator door and suddenly realize you have no idea what it was you wanted from the refrigerator. Well, BPD sufferers experience that far more frequently and more intensely than most people do. What is hard is making a clincal diagnosis because that requires determining whether the severity exceeds the diagnostic threshold and teasing apart the contributions of other PDs and illnesses. For Bob and your male friend, however, it hardly matters whether the woman's BPD traits warrant a clinical diagnosis as such. Even when BPD traits are well short of the diagnostic threshold, they can make the relationship very destructive for both individuals.
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