When The Lies Continue Is It Time To Say Goodbye?

[Spark1111]

It's been 1.5 years since DDay. I have forgiven him and his OW the affair. We attend IC and MC. He has seemed truly remorseful but not courageous enough to give me all the details I so desperately needed to make sense of a two year period of my life where he had been mean and critical of me and our children.

 

I know there has not been contact for one year.

 

Recently I have been again devastated to learn he lied about yet another fact/and or facts. Something died in me. I don't think I can do this anymore, the pain is too great.

 

I wasn't asking for the "why" of the affair. I and he both know it will take much more counseling for him to understand all of his motivations. That's okay. I've been very patient.

 

But given simple questions, such as: Where did you take her? How much money was spent? Why lie again? Why lie while sitting with me in the counselor's office?

 

Given that truth is necessary to restore trust and create transparency, why lie again?

 

I am shattered today. I am seriously thinking of separating. I just want to lead a pain-free life and while I do love him, he seems to be the source of all of my pain.

 

What would you do?

[2sure]

I dont believe I ever received every gory detail.

For me, after I had the general idea of what took place , I stopped asking questions. And to be honest, I'm glad. My H was reluctant to give me details because he thought they would give me a "visual" I would never get out of my head. And regardless of his motives, he was right.

 

To be honest, I think if we had gone the route of me asking and him answering every question about the details - it would never have ended:

 

*I would always have more questions. *One answer would have led to more questions, *D-Day would be fresh and relived every time there was new question and answer. *I would have constantly felt as though information were being kept from me because I wasnt asking the right questions or because he didnt understand what I needed.

 

For me, once the decision was made to move forward ...he had to show me remorse , re-prove his committment to me, and work to rebuild my trust in him. Like you we agreed on transparency, but for us this was access to communications not an explanation of details such as cash spent or meals eaten.

 

He had to do those things and still is . And me? What is the BS part in the process of recovery? Is it to forgive? That may be too much to ask for quite some time, but the BS does have an obligation in this process. If you have decided together to move forward, the BS has the obligation to participate in the process of forgiveness. For me, that process included not having to rehash, not having every detail.

 

I completely understand your desire to have them. But to what end? The questions you have will not be answered by details.

 

But hey Sparks - I could be way wrong here for both you and me.

[jasminetea]

Spark, I've read your threads and I could weep for you. You have obviously tried very, very hard and very badly want to make this work.

 

Have you thought that the expressing of that need, the working so hard at your marriage, may actually be detrimental? I know it sounds perverse, but your husband hasn't had any real consequences for his behaviour. He's not had to really work at getting your forgiveness it would seem. Why wouldn't he lie? It saves him any tears or questioning from you and he knows you'll forgive him if you find out.

 

Follow your heart and be true to yourself and your beliefs. I believe that that entails not forgiving him quite so easily, but demanding, by your actions, he 'wins' you back. That means, I feel, leaving him and very much creating a life of your own. Give him the opportunity to miss you and realise what you being his wife actually means to him.

[Owl]

Tell him that this is where you are at, and how you feel.

 

Make it clear to him that you are so close to done that you could have a fork stuck in you...and that this is all a direct result of his continued deception and lie by ommision.

 

Don't hold back with what you're feeling, what you're considering.

 

He needs to hear the consequences of his choice to withold the truth from you.

 

Even if it doesn't lead to reconciliation, you'll feel better for it.

[RoadtoRepair]

As a cheater and going through this with my wife, I agree with 2sure and ask "Do you REALLY want those answers". Sure, him not answering may be the easy way out that Jasmine refers to but it's not really like that. I am reading - we are reading - a great book, "Getting past the Affair" and even that book stats that intimate details are not necessary as much as the workign for the future.

 

Questions replace "made up" thoughts with REAL ones - and thoughts you will never get out of your head and that will make the recovery process even harder and longer. There are certain elements of an affair you know are there - emails, notes, conversations, niceities, and physical things. None of which address the "why and how" or help you move forward. It is those answer you want; not the details... As with people that suspect and affair and then KNOW an affair.. the escalation and the knowning is worse. As long as they 'suspect', there is something safe in that.. as soon as they KNOW, it hurts that much more. You can "think" about what they did and how they did it; but actually hearing those words from your husbands lips will kill you - or the recovery process. That is, if you want to recover.

 

Concentrate on his efforts now, his honesty and integrity... do you belive that? Money spent, time spent while all betrayal, is in the past and you two are workign for a future... and regardless of the degree of the affair or the details you know, it will all hurt the same.. and it all points to the same fact - he had an affair.

 

I hope I am not coming off cold. Its hard on you and if he is anything like me, he hates himself for what he did to you and these memories are as painful to him almost as much as they are painful to you. That is no consolation but he is hurting too.

[pelicanpreacher]

Tell him that this is where you are at, and how you feel.

 

Make it clear to him that you are so close to done that you could have a fork stuck in you...and that this is all a direct result of his continued deception and lie by ommision.

 

Don't hold back with what you're feeling, what you're considering.

 

He needs to hear the consequences of his choice to withold the truth from you.

 

Even if it doesn't lead to reconciliation, you'll feel better for it.

 

Here here! When you skirt the fear that resides at the center of your heart you too commit the lie of omission. Vanquish the lies of fear and the freedom of truth shall liberate your pain!

[Athena]

 

Recently I have been again devastated to learn he lied about yet another fact/and or facts. Something died in me. I don't think I can do this anymore, the pain is too great.

 

Why lie again? Why lie while sitting with me in the counselor's office?

 

 

What did he actually lie about?

Is it something that he may have not 'lied' about, but thought he was saying the correct details (but the details tend to get foggy for CS, NOT for BS)?

What happened

[carhill]

If you have truly forgiven the affair, history would be in the past and you and your H would be living in the present. Truthfully, there is always going to be a detail omitted, a recollection inaccurate, a description distorted by memory. Part of forgiving is accepting all those things as the past and working from a point forward. You and he decide that point. Live and love the present truth. Or divorce. It's really that simple, IMO.

 

If you allow fear to rule you, you will die in its grip. Life is short.

[Spark1111]

What did he actually lie about?

Is it something that he may have not 'lied' about, but thought he was saying the correct details (but the details tend to get foggy for CS, NOT for BS)?

What happened

 

Well, it's like this:

 

Other than blank, where did you take her. Nowhere, just there. The city? Never. Okay, why just there? Because I had business there, so it was a good excuse. (I accepted this hook, line and sinker. Very calmly.) A piece of the puzzle filled in.

 

Then discover two additional, VERY EXPENSIVE Resort towns, one when I was visiting my son in college. Which then made, his response in front of the counselor, "So, how much did you spend on her?" His answer of blank was also a lie. He spent ten times that amount.

 

Here's what hurts so much. His affair had so many elements of revenge to it. He hated me or was trying to punish me big time. These were places special to us or our families. They seem forever tainted to me now. But now he loves me? I can't believe anything that comes out of his mouth. So wish I could.

 

And I did tell him that 18 months of stumbling on receipts, bank statements, flowers, limos, trips was so cruel after I had begged him two months after DDay to hash it out, get past the baggage, bring it all home and let's put it to rest. He...refused. Said wait. I will. I'm not ready.

 

I woke up ....done. I woke up realizing how he may NEVER meet my emotional needs. The talk always gravitates back to him and his pain. It just struck me as unbelievable. Now??? Now you are going to divulge all???

 

He then said, I was going to tell everything tonight at MC, but you can't interrupt with any questions. Huh?

 

This feels oh, so controlling to me, still!

[Reggie]

I think theBS has an aboslute right to as much information as the BS wants. I disagree with the cocept that actual knowing is worse than the imagination. The BS makes the call on this, not the Ws , some author, or the WS. There are many books on this that run contrary to the "Getting Past The Affair" book.

[Spark1111]

I don't want sexual details, he'd never touch me again and our sex life is great. I just wanted to fill in the blanks of two years of my life that I thought he was working late and hard for us?

 

It is not sooo much that he had an affair. It is that he had to hate us to do so. That is the scariest part. I have no reassurances it will not happen again, and certainly without truthful explanations, even of the most basic questions, how can I go forward with any trust????

 

Didn't you guys get basic timetable information? I have two years of missing blanks to overcome.

[Athena]

 

This feels oh, so controlling to me, still!

 

Wow. That is tough. Yes, it also sounds controlling to me.

So -- when he lied about spending ten times less on OW than he actually did, did you tell the MC otherwise? In front of him?

How does he react?

 

Why does he not see your pain? Is he narcissistic? Will he ever change his ways? Or is his attempt at reconciliation his way of controlling whether you leave him or not?

He sounds very selfish

[Spark1111]

I think theBS has an aboslute right to as much information as the BS wants. I disagree with the cocept that actual knowing is worse than the imagination. The BS makes the call on this, not the Ws , some author, or the WS. There are many books on this that run contrary to the "Getting Past The Affair" book.

 

I have read that 50 percent divorce. Of the remaining 50 percent, half proceeed without details or just easy conversation. Of those who discuss it openly and repeatedly, 87 percent chance of success.

 

A friend of mine successfully reconciled. It has been 10 years. She still will ask a question. He still answers and apologizes. THEY are in a good place.

[Athena]

and certainly without truthful explanations, even of the most basic questions, how can I go forward with any trust????

 

Didn't you guys get basic timetable information? I have two years of missing blanks to overcome.

 

I hate to say this but my H gave me ALL the details (sexual too) (we still have great sex) and yes I did go forward with trust but -- guess what?

He did it again a couple of years later when I really seemed 'over' it all!

Then after that, he did it again, then again.

 

So now, I simply am too afraid to Get Over It. Ever. Because that is Precisely when he strikes again.

 

That doesn't mean it will be the same in your M. I just wish I had made my H suffer strong consequences. I didn't. I was so eager to heal and move forward. My mistake.

 

For all I know the SOB could be up to business as usual even as we speak right now... he works abroad.

[Reggie]

I think disclosure, to the extent the BS requires serves both the BS and the WS. It clears up a lot of confusion for the BS. And, it makes the WS stop burying it, never fully facing the extent of thier cruelty and deception.

[NewSunrise]

It be one thing if he's still cheating and still lying then I'd forge forward to divorceville.

 

If all you are doing is to get "truthful" details of the where, when, why, how much did you spend, it's a matter of interpretation AND perception which can be a LOSING battle for both sides that can hamper recovery.

 

Bluntly, you want details but he might be walking a thin line as to what sort of details you want all the while deciding in his mind if the details you want will be helpful or cause more pain and conflict.

 

Accept that details of a cheating spouse doing someone else is a dagger in the heart. Pain has NO sense or concept of time even if D-day happened 1.5 years or 10 years ago. There will always be "things" that remind you of the A and trigger every pain and anger.

 

When asking for details, you need to decide if those details will help in the healing progress of your marriage or will it trigger old pain that will take the life out of you. For every details you seek, it may cause two steps back from emotionally recovering for YOU and your marriage.

 

So if you want concrete details, ask your spouse before hand that you feel the need to know and how it pains you to not know and must guess. Tell him to "help you" process it and that's the best way you know how to deal with it. And if he's willing and understanding, you may get to the point that details, any of it, will no longer matter.

 

Good luck.

[jasminetea]

I think that you need the answers and your H needs to give them to you willingly and accept the fallout from them if you are to both move forward. I also agree with NewSunrise that you need to consider which questions you ask and you need to make the decision once you have the answer and the regret from your H, to let it go.

 

I think the act of witholding information is as hurtful as anything, it's lying by omission, which is a continuation of the situation during the affair, which is doesn't do much to reassure the BS.

 

Yes, the answers are painful to hear, but when the truth is told about the affair, the affair stops being the monster under the bed. Once you know the whole truth, you'll not only know what you're dealing with, you'll also feel reassured that your H and the OW don't know anything you don't.

 

But most importantly, in my mind, having the truth will enable you to make informed decisions about whether to stay with the marriage or not and, if you do continue to stay, how best to make your marriage work.

 

Affairs thrive on secrecy and marriages fail because of it in my experience.

[sylviaguardian]

Sparks,

 

My wayward spouse lied all the way through counselling too.

It used to eat away at me that he was lying because:

 

1) it infuriated me that he thought I was that stupid

2) he believed he had 'changed'; my take on it was that he was doing exactly what he had done all along

3) his lying was a way of evading taking responsibility for what he had really done

 

One thing I learned from this pathetic mess was to trust my own instinct 100%. If you love someone it is so easy for them to manipulate you (if they are that way inclined). Two years after counselling I'd had enough and I looked him in the eye and told him 'I know you are lying; you know that I know you are lying. Why are you continuing to disrespect me?' At the end of that week he admitted that he had slept with her (he'd alway denied full-blown intercourse) and that he'd not used a condom (thanks SO much!).

 

In truth, it didn't hurt that much to hear it because my gut had told me that anyway. I didn't need any more details other than to confirm that he'd lied for around 5 years.

 

His reason? He said 'I wouldn't be able to handle it. I might have thrown him out'. The irony of it is that we are finished as far as a relationship goes; not because of the fact that he slept with her, but because he lied for so long. How could you ever trust someone who could look you in the eye every day for five years and keep insisting they were telling the truth when they knew deep down that they weren't. In the dark days, my WS even swore on his children's lives that he was telling the truth.

 

It's been 3 months since he told me. The biggest irony is that since he told me he said he has been 'feeling much happier in himself, at peace, and that he feels hopeful for our future together'.

 

It's not about information in my opinion. It's about knowing that the WS has the guts to front up to what they've done and that they are willing to accept responsibility for what really happened and not just the bits they choose to disclose. i agree with you that that is controlling behaviour. The choice is not about what YOU can handle it's about what they can handle in terms of fronting up to.

 

I wish you well. It's a horrible situation to be in but you can change it by calmly refusing to accept his lies and by making him aware that his lies are about to cost him his marriage. it might be food for thought.

[65tr6]

Spark, sorry to hear what you are going through.

 

You have every right to ask any question you want and your husband is expected to answer. And if you think he is lying through his teeth, look him in the eye and tell him that. How you feel about his lying.

 

I am not even sure why you are in Counselling if he is lying his way through. I would sit him down, ask for his undivided attention and have him answer all the question you have about the affair. Leave the C out. Just you and him.

[Spark1111]

Spark, sorry to hear what you are going through.

 

You have every right to ask any question you want and your husband is expected to answer. And if you think he is lying through his teeth, look him in the eye and tell him that. How you feel about his lying.

 

I am not even sure why you are in Counselling if he is lying his way through. I would sit him down, ask for his undivided attention and have him answer all the question you have about the affair. Leave the C out. Just you and him.

 

That is what I have been trying to do! I have begged to get to the point that this can be processed and put behind us! I told him I resent the marriage counselor as the ONLY venue to discuss the affair. We should be having, at this point in time, normal, insightful conversations on a daily basis. Just healing together. Every lie, omission, receipt sends me back to DDAy with rage and vitriol pouring out of me! I hate that person. I hate square one. I have worked too hard to move beyond square one.

 

And I so agree with Reggie, and any of the other reconciled posters who still obsess: Your imagination makes the "monster under the bed" ten times larger than it needs to be. Doesn't the WS see this pain? Care about this pain? Care enough to help ease this pain? Provide a timetable. Give a truthful explanation as best as can be remembered. Make ammends.

 

I have children. The money aspect makes me crazy! Forget about me, that is their/our money. Should I sue him/her to get half of it back? That would be an interesting law suit. We lived pinching every penny on a budget I told him was not enough, but he "wanted to grow his business" and I supported that. Yeah, monkey business. He lived like a millionaire to squire this woman around in limos, so great was his need to impress HER.

 

I mean, how many areas of resentment do I have to overcome? I told him in the beginning that I prayed "love and counseling" would be enough. I know longer think it is.

[silktricks]

I can understand the need to know the truth, the complete unvarnished horrible to behold truth. That's a starting point that's solid. You know where you are and then you can truly decide where you go from there. I don't think most cheaters get it. They think if they tell the whole truth that you will leave. It took my husband something like 4 years after D-day to admit that in the beginning he had liked the OW -- as if I hadn't figured that out within about 2 minutes of him telling me in the first place!!

 

Here's what hurts so much. His affair had so many elements of revenge to it. He hated me or was trying to punish me big time. These were places special to us or our families. They seem forever tainted to me now. But now he loves me?

 

Please re-read the bolded part above. IMO most cheaters who actually do love their BS are cheating primarily out of revenge and/or anger. That was also the case with my H. He took the OW to my very favorite place. It was an important part of my childhood and one I had shared ONLY with my husband and children. Though it took me about 2 years to get over the overall affair, it took me almost 5 years to get past that particular betrayal and be able to go there again without thinking about the OW. At first my husband said he thought we should stay away from the place, but I insisted that we go back almost weekly, and I often went without him as well. I needed to reclaim it for myself.

 

No one can tell you what you should do, only you can decide that. But don't assume that your husband doesn't love you because it feels that he cheated on you out of anger.

[silktricks]

And I so agree with Reggie, and any of the other reconciled posters who still obsess: Your imagination makes the "monster under the bed" ten times larger than it needs to be. Doesn't the WS see this pain? Care about this pain? Care enough to help ease this pain? Provide a timetable. Give a truthful explanation as best as can be remembered. Make ammends.

 

They see the pain, but believe the complete truth will be harder to take then the little dribs and drabs they dole out. They do NOT understand. They think they'll make things worse by telling everything, and to be fair, for some people (maybe for them??) that would be true.

 

For others of us, though, we need the total truth so we can truly put it behind us. Otherwise it just keeps coming back like recycled garbage.

[jwi71]

Every lie and every omission rekindles the A for you.

 

It allows for the possibility of other lies and other omissions...and what you thought you knew is now in doubt. You find yourself back at square one...the mistrust, the doubt, the anger the pain...all of it just as fresh as day one.

 

It feels like all this time and money was a waste because here you are right back at square one. What good did it do? What did you learn? How are "we" better? When does this ***** end?

 

And there is NOTHING you can do to make it go away and still maintain the M. Nothing.

 

Nothing YOU can do because YOU aren't the problem. Your H is.

 

You can't move past it because you need HIS help. And he isn't helping. He isn't being honest which is what YOU need. HE isn't carrying his fair share of the load. Only HE can do that. No one else.

 

Your H knows he MUST be honest and chooses otherwise. The reason doesn't matter because YOUR needs supersede HIS - and the lies do NOT meet YOUR NEEDS, he places himself above you. After 18 months, your H will NOT change as it pertains to honesty and his A. Accept it. Or do not.

 

And you face a very hard decision...accept it or do not.

 

What do YOU want?

[Reggie]

That is what I have been trying to do! I have begged to get to the point that this can be processed and put behind us! I told him I resent the marriage counselor as the ONLY venue to discuss the affair. We should be having, at this point in time, normal, insightful conversations on a daily basis. Just healing together. Every lie, omission, receipt sends me back to DDAy with rage and vitriol pouring out of me! I hate that person. I hate square one. I have worked too hard to move beyond square one.

 

And I so agree with Reggie, and any of the other reconciled posters who still obsess: Your imagination makes the "monster under the bed" ten times larger than it needs to be. Doesn't the WS see this pain? Care about this pain? Care enough to help ease this pain? Provide a timetable. Give a truthful explanation as best as can be remembered. Make ammends.

 

I have children. The money aspect makes me crazy! Forget about me, that is their/our money. Should I sue him/her to get half of it back? That would be an interesting law suit. We lived pinching every penny on a budget I told him was not enough, but he "wanted to grow his business" and I supported that. Yeah, monkey business. He lived like a millionaire to squire this woman around in limos, so great was his need to impress HER.

 

I mean, how many areas of resentment do I have to overcome? I told him in the beginning that I prayed "love and counseling" would be enough. I know longer think it is.

 

It is very infuriating when they squander the family resources to subsidize their cheating, isn't it. In my case, I gave my XW the $$ to pay the kids school tuition, only to find, after D-day, that she had spent it on her affair and lied to me about having paid it. I had to plead with the school to let them stay in and give me time to pay it off. WTF? She needed lots of lingerie and bikinis for this guy, I guess.

I think making restitution is a critical part of gaining forgiveness. This is an established requirement for forgiveness in Judaism and many authors talk about it

Restitution serves both the victim and the perpetrator. It helps dissipate, to some extent, the resentment the BS feels about having been denied similar access to the funds and it allows the cheater to make some concrete, tangible amends.

Perhaps your H should consider taking a second job or forgoing use of any discretionary income until the debt is paid back. I also think a WS should offer to subsidize the rest of the family having a similar amount of "fun" at his expense, something that falls in line with your morals(not like a revenge affair). I think any remoseful WS should be willing to pay for you and the kids to take vacations, buy Harelys or whatever using $$ he earns above and beyond his regular income or by using any funds he would normally use for himself and entertainment or discretionary purchases.

 

One way to quantify the extent of the dbet would be to ask how many encounters he had, figure the cost of a hooker in your area for those encounters(Number of encounters x pusrchase price), throw in the cost of your having watched the kids while he was engaging(babysitting cost) , and add in the expenditures he made on the cheating.

He should be willing to pay off that debt as restitution. Maybe trhow in an hourly rate for the time you have had to devote to getting therapy, as well. Fair is fair.

[couldnotsee]

I am somewhat new to this site, so please pardon any mistakes that I make, besides the biggest one I have ever made.

I am a cheat. She knows it. I have not always been just recently.

 

I have tried to get the courage up to tell my wife of my infidelity and thought that the relationship, that I want to keep with my wife, would not sustain the presure and heart ache. Read the same thing in another blog.

 

I fear her tears and her anger, but most of all causing her more pain.

 

I feel like I'm going down, going down slow.

 

Why could I not tell her some time ago?

 

I read your thread Spark and your husband sounds alot like me. I could not speak of it until I understood it myself.

 

If your husband speaks of the affair how would you react? You said he has been remorseful. Would you still want him in your Life as husband and wife. This is my fear, that she won't.

 

It is eating at the core of my soul I can't lose this gift I was given so long ago.

 

She is more than I am or dream to be. I lost sight of that.

It's been 1.5 years since DDay. I have forgiven him and his OW the affair. We attend IC and MC. He has seemed truly remorseful but not courageous enough to give me all the details I so desperately needed to make sense of a two year period of my life where he had been mean and critical of me and our children.

 

I know there has not been contact for one year.

 

Recently I have been again devastated to learn he lied about yet another fact/and or facts. Something died in me. I don't think I can do this anymore, the pain is too great.

 

I wasn't asking for the "why" of the affair. I and he both know it will take much more counseling for him to understand all of his motivations. That's okay. I've been very patient.

 

But given simple questions, such as: Where did you take her? How much money was spent? Why lie again? Why lie while sitting with me in the counselor's office?

 

Given that truth is necessary to restore trust and create transparency, why lie again?

 

I am shattered today. I am seriously thinking of separating. I just want to lead a pain-free life and while I do love him, he seems to be the source of all of my pain.

 

What would you do?