What Would Jesus Do?

[Mio]

This thread is for interested parties to continue the debate in the What if your MM or MW had other Affairs? thread.

[Mio]

Bent,

You yourself take the name bible thumper. So if I am trying to get you to see my viewpoint on things it seems natural to utilize scriptures because they are powerful to you. I am agnostic (at best) but clearly you are not.

 

So using scriptures for reference is an attempt to communicate to you in what seems your point of reference in this world. Honestly Jesus was dealing with an adulterer in the passage Mio quoted. I cannot see how that is out of context at all. He said, very clearly, do not judge an adulterer and he also said it was a sin. The New Testament is included, to the best of my knowledge, in the Torah and the Quran so if you are of a western patriachial religion his words would apply.

 

Now you pointing out to me personally that the bible says this is a sin will hold no water as an arguement to sway me at all. So if you were my friend in real life you would not be likely to mention scriptures at all. Does this mean you are suddenly a part time agnostic? No. It simply means you are attempting to speak my language in order to have any influence on me.

 

I can't understand why the moralists in this forum are treating scripture like an inkblot test. No-one is trying to pull a fast one on you. No-one is trying to argue against the generally accepted view that adultery has painful consequences to marriages and the children of marriages. Nor is anyone trying to suggest that Christians view adultery as anything but a sin.

 

With that out of the way, I cannot understand why there is any argument about Jesus' position about judgment. Jesus says over and over again that he does not judge us:

 

John 8:15 - "You judge by human standards; I pass judgement on no one."

John 12:47 - "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it."

 

Could it be any clearer? This was the whole point of the doctrine of salvation. And of course, he said it again to the female adulterer:

 

John 8:11 - "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

 

This is not sophistry. This is not a selective reading of the Bible. Jesus saved us by taking away judgment.

 

So if Jesus doesn't judge us, why should we judge and condemn each other?

[Mio]

So, it is okay to "violate" the prohibition against labeling so long as it is done to make a point? I would think everyone is doing it to make a point. Your putting yourself in a box, here, Mio. You either subscribe to your beleif re judgemnet and lableing or you don't, Your reaching, big time, ifyou are trying to carve out an exception for "making a point". Gel already pointed out where you are inconsistent on this.

 

I really can't understand why you and GEL are high-fiving each other on this idiotic point. GEL made a complete non-sequitur i.e. that compassion was a value judgement. That anyone could say this just blows my mind.

 

 

As for a religous basis for this being wrong, it is wrong on just about any etical level one wants to consider. No need to bring religion into it , although it is valid to do so.

No-one is trying to say that adultery is ethical, right or wholesome. It's just not about that at all. It's about how a group of Moral Outragists chooses to respond on these boards, in particular on a support forum made specially for people in affairs.

[Geishawhelk]

So if Jesus doesn't judge us, why should we judge and condemn each other?

 

Well, even though he may not judge us, his dad does, big time.

we are all familiar with the saying of Jesus, 'Judge not that you be not judged.' This statement, however, is hardly a blanket prohibition of judgement.

The Bible is full of exhortations to people to behave themselves because God will come in final judgement. Jesus' job was just to cajole people into behaving. Hence the title "The Good Shepherd'. Round 'em up and point them in the right direction!

 

People have a moral code, an ethical code and a legal code.

Adultery is a citable offence for divorce, and in some states of America, it's a criminal offence.

 

To whit:

Alabama

Arizona

Colorado

Florida

Georgia

Illinois

Indiana

Kansas

Maryland

Massachusetts

Michigan

Minnesota

Mississippi

Missouri

Montana

North Carolina

Oklahoma

Rhode Island

South Carolina

Tennessee

Utah

Virginia

 

You can also be court-martialled for it, in the Army.

 

So we have every right to be pissy if we want to be, and to take the Moral high ground. Particularly if we have felt the havoc wreaked by infidelity.

 

Marriage is a man-made process devised initially to maintain wealth within families by linking them through matrimony. It then became a religious rite, and people had to make vows, promises - in front of witnesses - and be expected to keep them.

If people don't think they can keep the promise, they shouldn't make it in the first place.

If they then find it looks as if they're going to think with their nether regions, the most honest thing to do is to discuss it with their spouse, work it through, or separate.

 

but as is quite evident, people take the most attractive route to them, and they sca-rew around.

Why?

Because they feel like it.

Selfish, thoughtless and very, very unwise.

 

You follow your methods, we'll follow ours.

Because the one thing your method doesn't address, is how ashamed people should be of their actions.

Shame is something they need to feel, if they're ever going to understand their wrong-doing and repent, isn't it?

[Ronni_W]

So if Jesus doesn't judge us, why should we judge and condemn each other?

Mio,

I think it is not that humans "should" or "should not" judge each other, it is just that we have absolutely no clue how to NOT do that. I think judging and condemning are ways that the lower mind uses to feel (the illusion of being) safe and/or superior.

 

At least, that is what MY lower mind is up to, when it judges and condemns . Plus, I guess, things seem to hurt less when the mind is taken up with other activities, no matter what those might entail.

BUT. I am working on figuring out that whole "unconditional love" thing -- my Intuition insists that is what Jesus practiced so successfully. (And my further suspicion is that if he did that, his "dad" is likely doing it, too.)

 

So, hopefully some day, I'll be less prone to judging and condemning than I currently am. Until then, though, I'm not gonna, er, judge and condemn myself for my shortcomings

[jwi71]

Oh sheesh...what is this?

 

You know, I don't mind if Mio wants to spew his version of Religion/Jesus/Whatever on this board or any other.

 

I do mind seeing Religious themed threads popping up in certain forums. This is NOT a person seeking advice on his/her affair. True that Mio is cheater but in this thread he is NOT seeking advice but rather an argument based on his interpretation of Christianity. He's preaching.

 

Mods, can we move this to another forum?

 

I am NOT saying CLOSE the thread or censure Mio, I ask that we move this thread to a more appropriate forum/sub-forum based on the above.

[JamesM]

I agree...this should be in the Spirituality forum.

 

As for what would Jesus do...I think it is clear.

 

Just because He forgives and preaches forgiveness does not mean He would allow adultery. Far from it.

 

The Bible condemns adultery and affairs in many many places. Even when you read Jesus' own words...."He who looks at a woman with lust in his heart has committed adultery already..." or something like that.

 

Using the Bible and Jesus' words to justify an affair is despicable at best.

[Reggie]

I really can't understand why you and GEL are high-fiving each other on this idiotic point. GEL made a complete non-sequitur i.e. that compassion was a value judgement. That anyone could say this just blows my mind.

 

 

No-one is trying to say that adultery is ethical, right or wholesome. It's just not about that at all. It's about how a group of Moral Outragists chooses to respond on these boards, in particular on a support forum made specially for people in affairs.

 

The hypocrisy in your posts , or the inability to see where you do not adhere to your own alleged standards is amazing. You bandy about lables like "hater" or call folks statements "idiotic', yet have the temerity to take this weird position.

Look, cheating hurts folks, violates ethical codes, and is abusive as hell. I have no hesitation in saying the folks doing it are behaving badly and should stop. That is the most supportive position I can think of.

My take on Jesus is that he had no problem telling folks when they were violating God's laws. But, he offered forgivness. I would never take the position that someone that cheated is forever doomed and incapable of change.

[Mio]

Mods, can we move this to another forum?

 

I am NOT saying CLOSE the thread or censure Mio, I ask that we move this thread to a more appropriate forum/sub-forum based on the above.

 

 

This thread belongs on the OM/W forum because it was a discussion of what is appropriate in that particular forum. It started here and it should end here.

 

I would ask the mods not to move it because this is about OM/W, not religion per se.

[Mio]

As for what would Jesus do...I think it is clear.

 

Yes, I think it is clear too.

 

Just because He forgives and preaches forgiveness does not mean He would allow adultery. Far from it.

 

The Bible condemns adultery and affairs in many many places. Even when you read Jesus' own words...."He who looks at a woman with lust in his heart has committed adultery already..." or something like that.

 

Reference please. No waving at the Bible and saying "it's somewhere in the back section".

 

Using the Bible and Jesus' words to justify an affair is despicable at best.

 

WTF? Where did I, or anyone else, try to justify an affair with Jesus' words? A quote reference would be appropriate at this point, or an apology.

 

To quote myself from inches above:

 

No-one is trying to argue against the generally accepted view that adultery has painful consequences to marriages and the children of marriages. Nor is anyone trying to suggest that Christians view adultery as anything but a sin.

[Mio]

The hypocrisy in your posts , or the inability to see where you do not adhere to your own alleged standards is amazing. You bandy about lables like "hater" or call folks statements "idiotic', yet have the temerity to take this weird position.

 

I can hear the moral indignation dripping off every word of your posts. And yet you can't rebut what I said. Compassion is not a value judgement.

 

 

Look, cheating hurts folks, violates ethical codes, and is abusive as hell. I have no hesitation in saying the folks doing it are behaving badly and should stop. That is the most supportive position I can think of.

My take on Jesus is that he had no problem telling folks when they were violating God's laws. But, he offered forgivness. I would never take the position that someone that cheated is forever doomed and incapable of change.

 

So let me see if I get this straight. Your position is that it's OK to shame adulterers on the OM/W forum because the Bible gives you permission to?

 

When does this fabled Forgiveness come into it?

[Mio]

Mio,

I think it is not that humans "should" or "should not" judge each other, it is just that we have absolutely no clue how to NOT do that. I think judging and condemning are ways that the lower mind uses to feel (the illusion of being) safe and/or superior.

 

At least, that is what MY lower mind is up to, when it judges and condemns . Plus, I guess, things seem to hurt less when the mind is taken up with other activities, no matter what those might entail.

BUT. I am working on figuring out that whole "unconditional love" thing -- my Intuition insists that is what Jesus practiced so successfully. (And my further suspicion is that if he did that, his "dad" is likely doing it, too.)

 

So, hopefully some day, I'll be less prone to judging and condemning than I currently am. Until then, though, I'm not gonna, er, judge and condemn myself for my shortcomings

 

At last, someone who GETS it! Thanks Ronni W.

[Mio]

Because the one thing your method doesn't address, is how ashamed people should be of their actions.

Shame is something they need to feel, if they're ever going to understand their wrong-doing and repent, isn't it?

 

You'll need to explain this shame bit to me. Where in the Bible, or any psychology text, is shame considered to be a healing step? You seem quite convinced about shame.

[Mio]

I'm just gettin' a kick out of the fact that this thread lay dormant until your last five-in-a-row posts.

 

LOL! I laughed too at how the religious bigots ran out of things to say. Maybe they had to picket down at the local abortion clinic or something

 

Sneaking and lying is what it is. Some of us know that and do NOT support it. It has nothing to do with God or Jesus, just simply treating others the way we would like to be treated.

 

And yet this forum - OM/W - is for "Support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner".

 

So do you think it that non-supporters might be ill-placed to offer support? :lmao:

[SerenityX2]

Not all of us are here to condemn....some of us really are trying to help....however saying something is a sin and judgement are two different things. It's not judging to point out something is a sin, it's called trying to help your brother.

 

Does the Command to "Judge Not" Mean We Should Not Rebuke Sin?

 

First, we must understand that the Bible contains many passages showing that rebuking sin is something Christ did and Christians should do.

1) Not only did Jesus rebuke sin, but He also commanded His disciples to rebuke sin.

 

His apostles and disciples throughout the New Testament did condemn sin with His approval. One does not need to have lived all his life without sin in order to rebuke others. Jesus knew His disciples had committed sins, yet he still ordered them to rebuke sin. Consider these passages:

Luke 17:3 - If your brother sins, rebuke him (cf. Matthew 18:15).

Ephesians 5:11 - Do not have fellowship with sin, but reprove it.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 - The Lord's servant must correct those who have been taken captive by the Devil.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 - Preaching the word requires us to "reprove and rebuke" - this means to tell people when they are wrong.

Titus 1:9-14 - Elders must sharply reprove people who teach things they ought not.

James 5:19,20 - We should seek to convert those who go into sin and error.

Proverbs 28:4 - Those who keep the law, will contend with the wicked. (Cf. Proverbs 28:23; 24:24,25.)

[study also 1 Timothy 5:20; 1 Thessalonians 5:14; Titus 3:10; 2:15; Galatians 6:1; Proverbs 19:25; 25:12; Jude 3.]

Clearly, people do not need to live a sinless life in order to rebuke sin. In fact, if we fail to rebuke others when they sin, they we ourselves have committed the sin of disobeying the above passages!

(2) The Scriptures do not forbid all judging of sin, but in fact they require us to practice it.

 

John 7:24 says, "Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment." This is a "judge not" passage, but note that not all judging is wrong. Rather, we are required to judge "righteous judgment."

Matthew 7:1-6,12 is another "judge not" passage. It is probably the most common passage some folks quote saying we should not judge. But again the context condemns certain kinds of judging while commending other kinds.

The context says we should not condemn others while we practice a similar sin. How can you help a neighbor get a mote (a speck of sawdust) from his eye, when you have a beam (log) in your own eye (vv 3,4)? God is repulsed by hypocrites who condemn everyone else's sins, but never see their own (Romans 2:1-3,17-24). This kind of judging is what Matthew 7:1-5 condemns.

Does this say we should always overlook a brother's sins? Not at all. Verse 5 expressly tells us to help a brother remove his mote - it does not say to keep quiet about it. But we should do this only after we have corrected our own lives! Note that verses 6 and 15-20 also require making judgments.

When we study what the Bible teaches about rebuking sin and what it teaches about judging, we learn that the Bible forbids certain kinds of judgment, but it also requires us to rebuke sin in order to help people please God and be saved.

 

However I agree this really has no place on this forum, most good intentioned advice goes ignored, most want to turn a blind eye to God's truths as well, that's why they're on this forum instead of a Christian based one.

[Reggie]

I can hear the moral indignation dripping off every word of your posts. And yet you can't rebut what I said. Compassion is not a value judgement.

 

 

 

 

So let me see if I get this straight. Your position is that it's OK to shame adulterers on the OM/W forum because the Bible gives you permission to?

 

When does this fabled Forgiveness come into it?

 

Well, then give me some of what you are smoking. I am the last person to use the bible or Jesus for authority on this.

As for rebutting things, you've ignored my pointing out your inconsistencey. Your characterization of one poster as lacking compassion clearly violates your alleged philosophy.

[herenow]

LOL! I laughed too at how the religious bigots ran out of things to say. Maybe they had to picket down at the local abortion clinic or something

 

 

 

And yet this forum - OM/W - is for "Support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner".

 

So do you think it that non-supporters might be ill-placed to offer support? :lmao:

 

Non-supporters as you call us are here because it's a topic we are close to as well. If you only want to hear "support", then you are closing your eyes to the real consequences of adultery. Why are you so opposed to us being here?

 

I come and go from this forum based on how busy I am. Just happens that January is a slow month for me so I have more sit around time at the office. I'm at a point now where my passion for this topic is fading, but there are many BW who are hurting and looking for answers just like the affair partners that come here for support.

 

When I first came here, I was angry and yes, bitter. I came here because I didn't want to have anything to do with the OW in real life, but I had a need to understand her views. I would hope that some insight from a hurting BW would do the same for an OW.

[Mio]

Well, then give me some of what you are smoking. I am the last person to use the bible or Jesus for authority on this.

As for rebutting things, you've ignored my pointing out your inconsistencey. Your characterization of one poster as lacking compassion clearly violates your alleged philosophy.

 

I never 'characterized a poster' - that would be a judgement. I characterised their posting stance as compassionless. Big difference.

[Geishawhelk]

You'll need to explain this shame bit to me. Where in the Bible, or any psychology text, is shame considered to be a healing step? You seem quite convinced about shame.

 

Well, for my part, I'm not a Christian, so the Biblical question doesn't apply to me. Thanks for asking.

 

Shame?

Remorse?

Guilt?

All extremely important emotions to own and suck up to.

A person has to confess their part, or step up to the plate', before moving on.

And if there is no shame/remorse/guilt, then the person stays in an unrepentant state of mind, sees nothing wrong in what they've done and is likely to do that again.

 

Common knowledge.

[Mio]

Well, for my part, I'm not a Christian, so the Biblical question doesn't apply to me. Thanks for asking.

 

Shame?

Remorse?

Guilt?

All extremely important emotions to own and suck up to.

A person has to confess their part, or step up to the plate', before moving on.

And if there is no shame/remorse/guilt, then the person stays in an unrepentant state of mind, sees nothing wrong in what they've done and is likely to do that again.

 

Common knowledge.

 

At this risk of sounding petty, these things are not 'emotions'. Guilt and shame are feelings borne of judgement.

 

Remorse is the only healthy response on your list. Do we need to shame someone to bring them to remorse? I wouldn't have thought so.

[Mio]

And LS, as stated on the very first page of the site, also says, in part, "...a forum to confront personal conflicts, promote participation in self-discovery and responsibility... "

 

So, yes. The non-supporters are welcome, otherwise who is going to "promote participation in responsibility?"

 

LOL. Nice comeback

[Geishawhelk]

Mio, the value and wonder of a forum like this one is that individuals are different. That's what makes them individual. Without a healthy balance of a good cross-section of responses, how is anyone ever going to receive an adequately diverse variety of responses from which to glean a good cross-section of advice?

[Dexter Morgan]

No-one is trying to say that adultery is ethical, right or wholesome. It's just not about that at all. It's about how a group of Moral Outragists chooses to respond on these boards, in particular on a support forum made specially for people in affairs.

 

Morality doesn't have to play into what people say on this board. It doesn't take a morally superior person to despise the kind of hurt that cheaters bestow on their so-called loved one.

[Mio]

You can't feel remorse until you feel shame or guilt. If you have no problems with your behavior, you cannot feel remorse. And guilt and shame ARE emotions. Remorse is an act borne of the emtions.

 

These things are sometimes called "secondary emotions", because they aren't real emotions like anger, hurt, fear. Shame and guilt are really manifestations of hurt but overladen with moral judgement.

 

I agree that people need to know that their actions are hurting someone else, in order to feel remorse. That can be down without moral outrage though.

[Geishawhelk]

That can be down without moral outrage though.

 

Given that they lie, cheat, cause pain and suffering and break the law (possibly) and God's commandment (definitely), why should the outrage NOT be moral?