Caliguy: In a pickle here...

[CaliGuy]

So I got myself in predicament here...

 

There's this woman I know from a certain establishment I frequent. No, it's not one of THOSE kinds of establishments (pervs!). Anyway, over the past year we've become friends. Whenever I go there we usually end up chatting for 10-15 minutes. Lots of eye contact on both sides. She can tell that I have an interest in her, I can tell she has an interest in me. Her friends joke with her that I am her "other" fiancé.

 

Yes. She's engaged.

 

I haven't made any moves on her until this weekend. I told her when we first met that I respect the ring and I'm ok with being friends. And we have been for a year now. Well Friday she texted me and said she was going out with her friends on Sat night and if I'd like to come along I am welcome. Well I did and we all ended up hanging out and having a good time. During the course of the night she let it be known that she's not happy in her relationship and said, point blank, I am not going to marry him. She took the engagement ring off, briefly.

 

Now I am not sure if that was an open invitation or what, but I let it go until later that night. We got to dancing and you know how you get that feeling "This person really likes me!". Well she was giving that vibe off heavy. Anyway, we did end up exchanging a brief kiss before I left. I know, I know. Bad boy. She even called me as much as she SMILED at me afterwards.

 

I'll see her later this afternoon. I'm pretty sure I know how to handle it. I am not going to pressure her for anything. If she is to leave her fiancé then she needs to do that on her own accord. I am not going to twist her arm.

 

Do I want her? Uhh, unequivocally YES. She's everything I could ever want in a woman, and then some That's why her friends at work call me her "other" fiancé, because even they see that we'd make a great couple.

 

I just don't want to make any big mistakes. Yes, I know the "if she'll cheat on him, she'll cheat on you" thing but she made it clear she isn't going to stay with him. She even texted me on Sunday to say what a great time she had and that I was fun to talk to. She never mentioned the kiss (which was earth-shattering for both of us I think, lol).

 

Thoughts? Criticisms? Advice? Let's hear it. I'm all ears.

[Nevermind]

While the kiss is nothing I'd call cheating, there is one thing that bothers me and that could become a problem. She didn't really set clear boundaries with you during the time she was (I guess) happy with her fiancé. If she had, nobody would have called you her other fiancé. So this is something that should be adressed if the two of you should enter a relationship.

 

Other than that: wait till the engagement is broken. Do not start anything until this is a given.

 

I hope you'll be happy.

[Konfuzion]

I think the only thing that should have been handled differently is that she should have broke it off with the fiance before she kissed you, even though she said she was done with him it wasn't official. Anyway best of luck to you, I hope it works out.

[sunshinegirl]

While the kiss is nothing I'd call cheating, there is one thing that bothers me and that could become a problem. She didn't really set clear boundaries with you during the time she was (I guess) happy with her fiancé. If she had, nobody would have called you her other fiancé. So this is something that should be adressed if the two of you should enter a relationship.

 

Other than that: wait till the engagement is broken. Do not start anything until this is a given.

 

I hope you'll be happy.

 

WHOA, I vehemently disagree. Romantically kissing someone OTHER than your fiance is cheating. It is also an outward sign of the emotional flirtations they have been engaged in for the last months or even year.

 

Caliguy, you dish out plates of cold harsh reality to others on here, so take this in that spirit: back the hell off and see whether she follows through on breaking her engagement ASAP.

 

If she is telling you she's not going to marry this guy, is taking her ring off when around you, is kissing you, but doesn't break up with him in the next few DAYS or, to be generous, weeks, you know you are dealing with a totally selfish player.

 

Ohhh this chaps my hide, big time. She IS cheating on her fiancee, emotionally and now has done so physically.

[amaysngrace]

Well that's good I guess.

 

I wouldn't go out with her socializing until she gives her guy the ring back and breaks off the engagement. It's really not that hard to do. I don't know why she is stringing her guy along like that. It's not nice.

 

Honestly if I were you I'd apologize for kissing her the other night. You disrespected her relationship by doing so.

 

Feel for the other guy if you can. It'll keep you on the high road.

[CaliGuy]

Duly noted.

 

On the "other fiance" thing -- that was sort of a running joke. I never took it seriously and I don't think she did either. Even though I knew both of us had/have an interest in each other, I did not "go there" with her, ever. I didn't have the first clue she was unhappy with the guy until Saturday night.

 

FYI she is 28, I am 39. Her fiance is the same age. He is what you would describe as a 'Beta Male'. Very passive about everything. He won't hang out with her when she goes out because he is insecure around her friends. I'm more of an Alpha Male type. I lead, especially in my house. Apparently at home, she is the leader because he won't take charge. It's turning her off.

 

She sees that I am different from most men she's dated and I think that, along with my charming personality (lol) has captivated her. She's either dated jerks or door mats. I happily fall in the middle (well balanced). She really likes that.

 

I appreciate the thoughts. I'm definitely not going to do anything until she breaks it off with him.

[Geishawhelk]

Yep.

Tell he that she's the gal of your dreams, and that you're happy to wait - but the action has to come form her.

She has to put her money where her mouth is.

Break it off with him, then approach you with a clean slate.

 

Do the right thing, hunk!

[Nevermind]

Sunshinegirl: yes, I partly agree. However, one brief kiss to me is not full-blown cheating. It is a sign of deep problems within a relationship. If a partner of mine would confess to me that he had been kissing another person, I would take it as a sign of trouble and discuss it. Since she professed that their relationship is over, there should be no discussion but a break-up ASAP.

 

Thinking about it: there is something really tasteless about ending an engagement in your mind and not telling your fiancé first of all people. Also, he may be a Beta Male but she did consider staying with him for a lifetime. Now she doesn't. Don't believe everything she tells you about him. There are similar stories in the OP-Section.

[Jilly Bean]

It always seems like the OM/OW (which you are in this situation) takes some kind of twisted pride in thinking they are somehow *better* than the person their love interest is already with. It appears like a contest.

 

And Nevermind made a great point - it sounds like she has been keeping up some heavy flirtation for a LONG time. And how appropriate is that? Now she may be poised to make you rebound guy.

 

I just always find it amazing that people in this situation would find the (cheater) to be some great prize. IMO, she doesn't have a lot of integrity, and if this is the kind of woman you admire, respect and would cherish, then power to ya.

[CaliGuy]

WHOA, I vehemently disagree. Romantically kissing someone OTHER than your fiance is cheating. It is also an outward sign of the emotional flirtations they have been engaged in for the last months or even year.

 

Caliguy, you dish out plates of cold harsh reality to others on here, so take this in that spirit: back the hell off and see whether she follows through on breaking her engagement ASAP.

 

If she is telling you she's not going to marry this guy, is taking her ring off when around you, is kissing you, but doesn't break up with him in the next few DAYS or, to be generous, weeks, you know you are dealing with a totally selfish player.

 

Ohhh this chaps my hide, big time. She IS cheating on her fiancee, emotionally and now has done so physically.

 

Remember what I've always said about women who end relationships? They emotionally detached weeks or months before they break it off. She admitted she has been talking to her sisters about breaking it off for a while now so I know she's serious. I would never pressure her to leave him. She needs to handle that on her own accord without my interference. If she doesn't break it off soon then I'll know she's full of it.

 

Well that's good I guess.

 

I wouldn't go out with her socializing until she gives her guy the ring back and breaks off the engagement. It's really not that hard to do. I don't know why she is stringing her guy along like that. It's not nice.

 

Honestly if I were you I'd apologize for kissing her the other night. You disrespected her relationship by doing so.

 

Feel for the other guy if you can. It'll keep you on the high road.

 

Yeah I will apologize when I see her tonight. The last thing I want to do is be the guy that interferes with a relationship because I have been on the other side as well. The thing is, she is the one who brought all this up and I would never have gone there if she hadn't taken the ring off in front of me.

[Nevermind]

One question: did she put the ring back on?

[sunshinegirl]

Remember what I've always said about women who end relationships? They emotionally detached weeks or months before they break it off. She admitted she has been talking to her sisters about breaking it off for a while now so I know she's serious. I would never pressure her to leave him. She needs to handle that on her own accord without my interference. If she doesn't break it off soon then I'll know she's full of it.

 

"Emotionally detaching" in no way justifies betraying her fiance. People with integrity and a smidgen of care, concern, and respect for the SO they plan to break things off with keep their hands, lips, dicks, and vaginas to themselves until they have done so.

 

I suspect that if you were giving advice to someone else in your shoes, you would say similar things as I am.

[CaliGuy]

It always seems like the OM/OW (which you are in this situation) takes some kind of twisted pride in thinking they are somehow *better* than the person their love interest is already with. It appears like a contest.

 

And Nevermind made a great point - it sounds like she has been keeping up some heavy flirtation for a LONG time. And how appropriate is that? Now she may be poised to make you rebound guy.

 

I just always find it amazing that people in this situation would find the (cheater) to be some great prize. IMO, she doesn't have a lot of integrity, and if this is the kind of woman you admire, respect and would cherish, then power to ya.

 

I never said I was better, Jilly, just different. It's not pride that I am feeling. This is a woman that I have been very interested in for a long but felt she was unobtainable. So I maintained a friendship with her. I was shocked when she told me this because until Saturday I thought she was completely happy with this guy.

 

I wouldn't say there was "heavy" flirtation. We have had a friendly relationship but it's never gone beyond talking to each other in a social environment and never anything remotely passionate until Saturday...

[Art_Critic]

Caliguy...

 

Just be straight up with her.. no Caliguy if she has a Anotherguy.

 

The thing to keep in mind is that you need to not be on the hook with her..continue to date others and PUT HER on the backburner..

If she likes you and it fizzles out with the other guy then she will call you...

 

By the way.. an alpha male would have banged her when he had the chance this last weekend.. ..

 

Just Saying.......

[CaliGuy]

One question: did she put the ring back on?

 

I honestly don't remember.

 

"Emotionally detaching" in no way justifies betraying her fiancé. People with integrity and a smidgen of care, concern, and respect for the SO they plan to break things off with keep their hands, lips, dicks, and vaginas to themselves until they have done so.

 

I suspect that if you were giving advice to someone else in your shoes, you would say similar things as I am.

 

Agreed. As I said before, I am going to stay hands off in regards to her until she has broken things off with him. I'm not defending her or myself or our actions. I regret what happened simply because I wouldn't want someone to do that with my fiancé either.

 

But there is definitely no denying there is a lot of attraction between us.

[Nevermind]

Whenever I go there we usually end up chatting for 10-15 minutes. Lots of eye contact on both sides. She can tell that I have an interest in her, I can tell she has an interest in me. Her friends joke with her that I am her "other" fiancé.

 

I wouldn't say there was "heavy" flirtation. We have had a friendly relationship but it's never gone beyond talking to each other in a social environment and never anything remotely passionate until Saturday...

 

She has known for a year that there is an interest from your side and that reacts positively to the idea. You have lot's of eye contact. Jokes. Friends call you her other fiancé. Don't fool yourself, that was flirtation. People within a situation sometimes cannot analyse their own behaviour, but be sure that had there been no flirtation, then nobody would have called you that name.

 

This is why I say: she has trouble setting boundaries and you should be wary of that. She can still be a person with integrity, so don't think I am trying to put her down. But watch out and don't be fooled.

[CaliGuy]

Caliguy...

 

Just be straight up with her.. no Caliguy if she has a Anotherguy.

 

That's the plan

 

The thing to keep in mind is that you need to not be on the hook with her..continue to date others and PUT HER on the backburner..

If she likes you and it fizzles out with the other guy then she will call you…

 

That's also the plan...

 

By the way.. an alpha male would have banged her when he had the chance this last weekend.. ..

 

Just Saying.......

 

You know, while I agree with you to some degree, I think it wasn't the right time. Plus, I don't think she would have respected me and I would have lost respect for her as well. She needs to break things off the other guy first. Once she clear and free then we'll take

[Jilly Bean]

I never said I was better, Jilly, just different. It's not pride that I am feeling. This is a woman that I have been very interested in for a long but felt she was unobtainable. So I maintained a friendship with her. I was shocked when she told me this because until Saturday I thought she was completely happy with this guy.

 

I wouldn't say there was "heavy" flirtation. We have had a friendly relationship but it's never gone beyond talking to each other in a social environment and never anything remotely passionate until Saturday...

 

You wrote that he was beta, you're alpha, he turns her off, you're more her type, she's dated losers, thats not you... All contest posturing.

 

And as NM pointed out, if you were merely very casual acquaintances, then why did her friends deem you the "other fiance"?

 

But again, if you find this type of woman to be honorable and loaded with integrity and therefore supremely desirable, then go for it. Just don't be surprised when she does the same thing to you.

 

Maybe this thread should have been in the OW/OM section?

[amaysngrace]

The thing to keep in mind is that you need to not be on the hook with her..continue to date others and PUT HER on the backburner..

 

Right here are words of wisdom Cali.

 

Although I have to say it's really good you two are friends. I'm in your corner on this one. Just do it the right way which I'm sure that you will.

[Vertex]

To be honest, caliguy, I'm a little surprised. I've been coming here for a while now, and I've generally thought your advice to be extremely wise, accurate, and easy to understand. However, this situation strikes me as a huge red flag.

 

1. You say the kiss was earth-shattering... what kind of kiss was it? Would you classify it as infidelity? My intuition here would guess that it was perhaps inappropriate... perhaps even discrediting her relationship despite the fact you say you don't wish to interfere.

 

2. I understand that women emotionally detach a while before they eventually splinter off. I've seen it happen countless times to many people. However, I fail to see how this declining affection means it was okay to reciprocate her level of affections when she was still engaged. Just because she took the ring off, in my mind, is irrelevant. She's still with the guy. Regardless of how much she is flirting with you, it seems like it would have been more appropriate to maintain a cautious distance from the getgo, simply because of this fact.

 

 

I'm not sure what type of relationship you're aiming for out of this, but the entire situation just doesn't seem like the strongest springboard for something possessing high integrity/honesty/etc. Just because a woman detaches for a while doesn't automatically grant them a "four-week string-along" pass that allows them to take their time when it comes to relationship transitioning. If she's thinking of breaking off an engagement to pursue something with you, she'd better know for damn sure she's making the right choice, and she needs to make that choice ASAP.

[Stockalone]

I told her when we first met that I respect the ring and I'm ok with being friends. And we have been for a year now. Well Friday she texted me and said she was going out with her friends on Sat night and if I'd like to come along I am welcome. Well I did and we all ended up hanging out and having a good time. During the course of the night she let it be known that she's not happy in her relationship and said, point blank, I am not going to marry him. She took the engagement ring off, briefly.

 

As far as I am concerned, as long as a relationship has not been officially ended, the people in that relationship are off limits. I call BS on your claim that you respected their engagement and were ever okay with only being friends with this woman.

 

 

Do I want her? Uhh, unequivocally YES. She's everything I could ever want in a woman, and then some That's why her friends at work call me her "other" fiancé, because even they see that we'd make a great couple.

 

Do you think that her friends would have used the term "other fiancé" if your "friendship" with this woman would have been completely innocent. Somehow I doubt it.

 

 

Anyway, we did end up exchanging a brief kiss before I left. I know, I know. Bad boy. She even called me as much as she SMILED at me afterwards.

 

Personally, I call this kiss cheating.

 

 

She sees that I am different from most men she's dated and I think that, along with my charming personality (lol) has captivated her. She's either dated jerks or door mats. I happily fall in the middle (well balanced). She really likes that.

 

I am sure that her fiancé would disagree with you on that. "No more Mr. Nice Guy" sure seems to have worked for you. The nice guy is certainly gone, I am not sure though, if the result is what I would call a balanced man.

[Ruby Slippers]

Yeah, flirting is one thing -- kissing or anything physical is another. I was in a relationship that wasn't working a few years ago, and a mild flirtation with another guy emerged after I made clear I was unhappy and seriously considering leaving. The flirty guy was my next boyfriend, but we did nothing physical whatsoever until six months after the first relationship ended, once I'd had time to get over it and get back on my feet. And I was totally honest with my boyfriend about the flirtation, and he knew I wasn't happy and was considering breaking up with him.

 

I couldn't feel good about being with a guy who would kiss me while engaged to someone else, and yeah, as they say, if you get with this woman, do not be surprised if she cheats on you if doubts about you should emerge in the future.

[CommitmentPhobe]

Good job.

 

Now all you have to do is get her into bed.

 

Start celebrating, the pr1ck who she was engaged to, it's his problem

[CaliGuy]

You wrote that he was beta, you're alpha, he turns her off, you're more her type, she's dated losers, thats not you... All contest posturing.

 

And as NM pointed out, if you were merely very casual acquaintances, then why did her friends deem you the "other fiance"?

 

But again, if you find this type of woman to be honorable and loaded with integrity and therefore supremely desirable, then go for it. Just don't be surprised when she does the same thing to you.

 

Maybe this thread should have been in the OW/OM section?

 

Maybe....

 

Right here are words of wisdom Cali.

 

Although I have to say it's really good you two are friends. I'm in your corner on this one. Just do it the right way which I'm sure that you will.

 

Yes, I agree with Art's advice completely.

 

To be honest, caliguy, I'm a little surprised. I've been coming here for a while now, and I've generally thought your advice to be extremely wise, accurate, and easy to understand. However, this situation strikes me as a huge red flag.

 

1. You say the kiss was earth-shattering... what kind of kiss was it? Would you classify it as infidelity? My intuition here would guess that it was perhaps inappropriate... perhaps even discrediting her relationship despite the fact you say you don't wish to interfere.

 

It was not appropriate for us to kiss, regardless of how the kiss was.

 

2. I understand that women emotionally detach a while before they eventually splinter off. I've seen it happen countless times to many people. However, I fail to see how this declining affection means it was okay to reciprocate her level of affections when she was still engaged. Just because she took the ring off, in my mind, is irrelevant. She's still with the guy. Regardless of how much she is flirting with you, it seems like it would have been more appropriate to maintain a cautious distance from the getgo, simply because of this fact.

 

After the kiss, yes, we both kind of went "Ok, that was great but totally inapprpropriate." I'm not saying it was OK. I don't think it was, but the simple fact is the attraction level between us is really high. I don't want to interfere in her business either, that's why I backed off. Art said "why didn't you bang her if you're an alpha male" and this is reason. If I push her to break it off, by going with passion rather than reason in this case, then I'm reponsible for their relationship ending. That's not what I want.

 

If she is going to leave him, she has to do that on her own. I am not going to pressure her one bit. I want her to run to me. If I have to grab her arm and yank her, then it's not right. Like Art said, I will continue to date others and see where it goes. I'm not going to sit around waiting for her.

 

I'm not sure what type of relationship you're aiming for out of this, but the entire situation just doesn't seem like the strongest springboard for something possessing high integrity/honesty/etc. Just because a woman detaches for a while doesn't automatically grant them a "four-week string-along" pass that allows them to take their time when it comes to relationship transitioning. If she's thinking of breaking off an engagement to pursue something with you, she'd better know for damn sure she's making the right choice, and she needs to make that choice ASAP.

 

Agreed. I'm sure we'll talk more about this soon. Like I said, I'll see her today and I'll square things away.

[Trialbyfire]

Cali,

 

Fill in the blanks.

 

I don't think I need to give you advice. You know what to do.