Ethical Dilemma after the Affair.

[Brionikos]

Hello all,

 

I am in need of advice. Any and all will be appreciated.

 

The nitty gritty: I am MM who ended an affair with OMW. A few weeks after the affair, my W brought certain things to my attention and I confessed to her. W brought up the issue that maybe OMW's H should know. I made a deal w/ W so she would not tell - I figured why ruin other people's lives, especially if they are working on rekindling their marriage. I informed OMW that my W knew, but I had made a deal and her H would not be informed. OMW thanked me.

 

The situation: I am an *********, and I admit it. OMW and I have remained friends... we don't see each other, we have IM chats and send occasional e-mails. But there is no desire in me to rekindle what we once had. OMW accused (maybe too strong a word) of manipulating the situation as a ploy to get her and I back together. I then laid out the exact details of the deal I made with my W in order for OMW's H not to be told. OMW apologised to me for her accusation, and is now saying to break the deal I put in place and let her get told on.

 

My dilemma: OMW and I are quite capable of remaining just friends. However, she says she doesn't want to have to deal with the feeling that she is the cause of my misery. My counter is if I let OMW get told on, then I have failed as a friend and pretty much sold her out for my benefit and now OMW has every right in the world to hate me. With my deal in place, I may have a modicum of misery but I still get to keep a friend. If I let the deal fall apart I may regain some happiness and freedom, but I lose a friend - because I don't see how OMW could be friends with someone who sold her out - even if she is the one saying go ahead and sell me out.

 

 

I have presented my side to OMW and am awaiting her response, but would like to hear what others have to say.

 

FYI: My marriage is over, there is no reconciliation. The deal has to do with $$$, custody, and possesions and the amounts there of.

 

 

Thank you.

[SnowWhite924]

,

 

 

OMW apologised to me for her accusation, and is now saying to break the deal I put in place and let her get told on.

 

Maybe she wants to get caught!

 

If I let the deal fall apart I may regain some happiness and freedom, but I lose a friend -

 

Is the deal worth losing your happiness and freedom?

 

 

FYI: My marriage is over, there is no reconciliation. The deal has to do with $$$, custody, and possesions and the amounts there of.

 

 

Sounds like your putting a lot on the line for a 'friend'.

[wildsoul]

It seems to me that things are comingled here that need to be untied.

 

Your wife has her reason for telling.

 

The xMW has some reason she's not telling.

 

The xMW sounds like she's taunting you to tell but doesn't mean it. It sounds like some kind of test of either your friendship or your desire to rekindle.

 

None of these have anything really to do with the xMM's husband. Because of that I think you should not tell him.

 

You can let xMW know that if he comes to you and asks, you will tell him the truth, but that you are not going to him. It's her job to go to him if she wants him to know.

 

I think it's also fair to tell your W that you would like to end the don't-tell agreement. Tell her you want nothing to do with it, that this doesn't mean you want her to tell. But just that you're leaving it up to her to decide for herself. (If you decide to not tell him, but respond only if he asks, let her know that's your plan.)

 

Looks a little complicated, but also like you can just end your part in the game. Take a stand for what you're going to do (or not do) then refuse to discuss it once everyone is clear.

[Ronni_W]

OP, is it helpful to know that you are both using (or trying to use) each other?

 

1. OMW ought not to have any say in your and your ex's agreements. If they are causing her guilty feelings, she HAS to deal with those...fall-out and potential negative feelings are part of the package to which she willingly signed up at the start of the affair.

 

2. You are assigning YOUR ethics, perceptions and interpretations to OMW. It does not sound as if SHE will perceive herself as being "sold out" by you. In fact, it sounds as if you will be doing her a favour. (The thing about "selling out" is coming off as being your excuse for not breaking your agreement with your ex. But YOU DON'T NEED AN EXCUSE or a reason! About your agreements, just act according to your own values and principles.)

 

3. Sounds like OMW WANTS your ex to do OMW's dirty work...so you'd actually be selling out your ex, if you encourage her to be "the snitch". OMW needs to clean her own house, IMO, not try to manipulate your ex to renege on agreements and act in ways that will satisfy OMW's wishes and desires.

 

Yes, it is possible that you are letting your desire to remain friends with OMW cloud your thinking on other important decisions and choices that you need to make. Again, follow your own values and principles.

[jj33]

I would agree wholeheartedly. OMW has some other agenda going on there. And is it possible you might subconsiously as well if your communications caused her to think you were trying to rekindle, or was that just wishful thinking on her part? It does sound like she is looking for someone else to do the dirty work to tell her H.

 

If your resources happiness and freedom are on the line and OMW is not adverse to you breaking the deal, then I would say break it. You are trying to play God there (or a martyr) controlling your xWs behavior by making deals that punish you.

 

You are not in charge of your Ws behavior. It is not your fault that OMWs H may find out - its just one of the risks one takes in an affair (sorry to sound cavalier but it is). And it must be hard enough to go through a divorce why should you be punished while trying to start your new life by being in a significantly worse financial situation, just so that OMWs H does not find out. You dont even know that W wil definitely tell OMWs H - or maybe you do, you know your wife.

 

It sounds quite noble on your part but think deeply about your motivations. It sounds like there is a lot more going on behind the scenes.

 

Good luck with this.

[Ronni_W]

It sounds quite noble on your part but think deeply about your motivations.

Good point, jj. Not renegotiating an unreasonable agreement could also point to an underlying agenda to control and manipulate OMW's feelings and actions -- "look what I've sacrificed for you...how can you NOT stay my friend?" or whatever.

 

OP, I wholeheartedly agree with jj -- do your best to not allow misguided/cloudy thinking to influence you into settling on an agreement that does not take into account your own best (financial & parenting) interests.

[Brionikos]

Interesting replies, thank you all!

 

I generally don't delve into my psyche, because I pretty much think I know myself and how I am... but if others are seeing manipulation on my part, even if I don't mean for it to be so, it is the perception rather than the meaning that matters I suppose.

 

I am generally an altruistic person, who will bend over backwards for others... but I guess if others aren't used to dealing with people that are like that, they can see it as a manipulation - by an appeal to pity.

 

jj33 - I think you really may be on to something... I will have to ponder this further... I am not a rush to judgement type of person, rash decisions usually don't work out well.

 

Projection. Manipulation. Control. On my part.

 

 

What could her agenda be? That by saying for me to do it - knowing that it is totally against my nature - she reinforces the behavior in me so I won't do anything?

 

Please, keep them coming... this is very good and informative. Be able to have objective criticism and opinion is so very helpful.

[fubarred]

That's a bad deal man, and you should step back from that agreement with you wife. What guarantee do you have that months down the road, after you have fulfilled your end of the bargain, she won't tell anyway. She could send an anonymous letter and then claim to not know anything about it.

 

You have to give your OW some credit here. She might want to get caught so she has an easy out, but then again, she might just want what's best for you. She is aware of the situation and she has given you the green light to risk your wife telling.

 

Custody? I could see giving up the material stuff and some extra money if you felt the need to do so, but to include reduced custody? Screw that. Your kids are more important than her marriage, which she willingly risked in the first place. What happens when your kids find out about this agreement?

[carhill]

My take: I'd lose the friend and concentrate on myself and my children. TBH, friends like her you don't need and new healthy friendships are right outside your door. It sounds like you have a lot on your plate. Any exit IC or FC on tap for you and the kids here?

[Ronni_W]

What could her agenda be? That by saying for me to do it - knowing that it is totally against my nature - she reinforces the behavior in me so I won't do anything?

Since we are just brainstorming...

No, HER agenda would be about herself, her own needs and desires, not about reinforcing someone else's behaviour or satisfying their needs and desires.

 

One possibility is that she wants out of her marriage -- perhaps to reconnect with you now that you are divorcing...and perhaps not.

But she doesn't want to be the one who ends her marriage so..."let Hubby find out about my affair and surely he will kick me out. That way, HE is the "bad guy" and/or I can play the 'victim'." (Obviously misguided thinking and, to reiterate, it's just a possibility that her thoughts are running in this type of direction.)

 

 

If you "bend over backwards" for others, only as long as it is reasonable for YOU and within your personal abilities and resources, then you need not worry .

It is only a problem when somebody is always doing "nice and kind" without consideration for her/his own needs, limits, preferences and desires. Usually it is to generate, in the other, feelings of love, admiration, appreciation, respect, etc. It is conditional -- "I will do this nice, kind thing for you IF (but then I expect) you will feel this nice, kind way about me."

It can become the preferred method to (try to) control/manipulate others towards those feelings of which the "nice, kind" person wants to be recipient. Generally it is subconscious because we don't like to admit such a thing within ourselves.

 

But, if one is honest, we all do have what I call "self-serving" reasons for doing nice and kind things -- we do things that (we hope) will support our positive self-image and highest vision of our Self.

[girlwithglasses]

There is no honor among thieves. Anyone who is willing to blackmail and manipulate you is not likely to honor your agreement. So you give W everything she asks for and as soon as the ink on the agreement is dry she will throw both you and OW to the wolves. You are being taken for a sucker, in my humble opinion. OW is a big girl. She can deal with her own mess. I suggest you do the same.

[jj33]

Brionikos - your reaction is very telling. "I am generally an altruistic person, who will bend over backwards for others... but I guess if others aren't used to dealing with people that are like that, they can see it as a manipulation - by an appeal to pity."

 

Noone is saying you are intentionally being maniupulative. But look at what Ronni W said:

 

 

"If you "bend over backwards" for others, only as long as it is reasonable for YOU and within your personal abilities and resources, then you need not worry ["It is only a problem when somebody is always doing "nice and kind" without consideration for her/his own needs, limits, preferences and desires. Usually it is to generate, in the other, feelings of love, admiration, appreciation, respect, etc. It is conditional -- "I will do this nice, kind thing for you IF (but then I expect) you will feel this nice, kind way about me."

It can become the preferred method to (try to) control/manipulate others towards those feelings of which the "nice, kind" person wants to be recipient. Generally it is subconscious because we don't like to admit such a thing within ourselves."

 

This is right on the mark. Again I am not saying you manipulate its that you see yourself as doing the "nice thing" - but the problem with bending over backwards to be nice to others is that you do it at the expense of yourself and in this case your children. Your need to see yourself as being the nice guy has gone way out of proportion and for someone with whom you dont currently have a relationship and whom you say you dont want a relationship.

 

Isnt the divorce going to be hard enough on the children is? Why does OWM come before your children? That is in my view very very misplaced loyalty. Now if you have some other reason for not wanting to have the custody rights you would otherwise have and are telling yourself oh I would do that but I cant do that to OWM? It doesnt ring true.

 

Do you have some reason you want to distance yourself from W and children? Has something gone wrong in your relationship with your children? A re they siding with your w in the divorce so you think it will just be easier this way? You dont owe me any answers but you do owe them to yourself.

[me003]

I am a little confused.

 

I can't give my opinion on this because i am not sure what the deal is exactly

... XOMW might feel that you are getting a crappy deal and that's why she wants her H to know.

Or will you be getting a better deal if W tells OW's H.

[Agent_99]

I'm trying to get the story straight. Basically the way i understand it. You agreed to certain things with your wife to protect OMW. OMW is saying, you don't have to agree to those things to protect her, let whatever happens happen.

 

Do you understand from her point of view the emotional burden to know that you are giving up so much to 'protect' her. I understand the altruism. but sometimes the recievers of altruism can be very uncomfortable with it. usually an altruistic move doesn't involve the person being protected knowing about the details. knowing takes away from the sacrific, by placing a burden on the reciever.

 

just my 2 cents

~99

[bentnotbroken]

Interesting replies, thank you all!

 

I generally don't delve into my psyche, because I pretty much think I know myself and how I am... but if others are seeing manipulation on my part, even if I don't mean for it to be so, it is the perception rather than the meaning that matters I suppose.

 

I am generally an altruistic person, who will bend over backwards for others... but I guess if others aren't used to dealing with people that are like that, they can see it as a manipulation - by an appeal to pity.

 

jj33 - I think you really may be on to something... I will have to ponder this further... I am not a rush to judgement type of person, rash decisions usually don't work out well.

 

Projection. Manipulation. Control. On my part.

 

 

What could her agenda be? That by saying for me to do it - knowing that it is totally against my nature - she reinforces the behavior in me so I won't do anything?

 

Please, keep them coming... this is very good and informative. Be able to have objective criticism and opinion is so very helpful.

 

 

 

Let's pray she get busted and dumped without a dime. That would be nice. Too bad no one thought of ethics before the mess.

[Brionikos]

Clarifications:

W did not present the deal to me, I made the offer to her. No "blackmail" involved. If push came to shove, I have enough to make her honor the deal. Very dysfunctional, I know, but that is another issue altogether.

 

The nature of the deal as far as involving my child is that I will not attempt to take full custody. Both W and I, however horrible to each other we may be, are good and loving parents. OMW is not more important that my child, OMW knows this, knows full well that I would sell her out faster than lightning if there was a compelling issue involving my child.

 

OMW did not know the nature of the deal, did not know what really transpired until days... weeks, maybe... after it had been in place. It only came out after she had stated something akin to me manipulating her situation - it had come out that OMWs H had bits and pieces of the affair trickling in, I suggested maybe instead of trying to cover the lies with more lies, she try and mitigate damage by admitting to some of the "lesser crimes". The conversation started denigrating, with her telling me how Hellish it was becoming on her end, and in a rash action I had to go into oneupsmanship and tell her what Hell really was, and the nature of my deal was revealed.

 

OMW was a friend before the affair started, we had a prior non-romantic relationship. So I don't feel that my wanting to "protect" her is disporportional.

 

OMW is the one who stated she wanted the friendship to continue after the affair, I at first thought it a bad idea and that I wasn't properly equipped for it. We went through a period of NC, to center ourselves - so to speak. I feel I am being truly honest when I say I do not want to get back together with her in a romantic manner. I am the one who ended the romantic nature of our relationship.

 

 

Replies:

jj33 - oh, no no no. I know I wasn't being accussed of being intentional manipulative, I was actually agreeing that there was more than likely subconscious play at work, or that in cases of cynicism people think that because I am being nice that there must be a more ulterior motive for be such.

 

Agent99 - I agree, and it was never intentional that OMW found out, I sort of became fustrated and out it came.

 

Again, thank you all. And I appreciate all of the insight.

 

I hope I am not coming across as defensive or coming out with too much justification... if so, it really isn't intentional.

[SeaBrooke]

So your wife is essentially blackmailing you into agreeing in to a set of circumstances regarding your divorce that you otherwise would not, inorder to spare OMW's husband from finding out about the affair.

 

 

Seems to me the biggest problem you are having is about money, and the loss of what would be fair to you.

 

Your wife is getting more than her fair share....thus she must be satisfied with the deal you agreed too. You appear, cooperative in the end. Looking better for the on lookers.

 

OMW is safe either way, because she doesn't care if her husband finds out or not. If you really wanted to protect her, you would have made the deal and never said a word to her about it, and let her heal her marriage.

if she asked you could have told her, my wife will not tell him. period.

 

But you look like a hero of sorts to this OMW, saving her marriage at your own expense... Of course, this also saves you from having her husband know of your own behavior as well, doesn't it?

 

Not for nothing, but seems like ethics went out the window when you and omw, had an affair. I've been an OW so I know what I am talking about.

 

If OMW husband finds out, it will bring their marriage problems to the surface and that's not easy. But, she doesn't sound unwilling for that to happen. However, it may just mean.... That her Husband may be furious and she will be unale to continue her friendship as you both now have it arranged.

 

so from what I've read, your dilemma is not about her marriage for either you, your wife or even OMW. You say you can't imagine her being your friend if you sell her out, and she has told you she would be....

 

Your fear is ..... What if her husband won't let her. Because If she was going to leave him, she already would have told him. He isn't going to let her have a friendship with you.

 

That is what I think is really bothering you. From what I have read.

[Brionikos]

So your wife is essentially blackmailing you into agreeing in to a set of circumstances regarding your divorce that you otherwise would not, inorder to spare OMW's husband from finding out about the affair.

 

We essentially posted at the same time, clarified in my previous post

 

OMW is safe either way, because she doesn't care if her husband finds out or not. If you really wanted to protect her, you would have made the deal and never said a word to her about it, and let her heal her marriage. if she asked you could have told her, my wife will not tell him. period.

 

At first that is exactly what happened. I told OMW "that my W knows, but she won't tell and you can trust me on it." It was only after a lapse of judgement did I let the cat out of the bag, so to speak.

 

But you look like a hero of sorts to this OMW, saving her marriage at your own expense... Of course, this also saves you from having her husband know of your own behavior as well, doesn't it?

 

Nothing to do with heroics, but everything to do with "why intentionally ruin something they are trying to rebuild? I am already in hot water, why should even more people suffer?"

As for saving me? Yes, but that is secondary. I most definitely deserve whatever came my way for my role - except maybe death

No one is punishing me more than me over this. Not my wife, not my priest, not my therapist. I have made a grave transgression, and I am trying to make amends - in my own way.

 

Not for nothing, but seems like ethics went out the window when you and omw, had an affair. I've been an OW so I know what I am talking about.

 

I couldn't agree with you more. A moment of weakness? A lack of judgement? No... pure selfishness. And it is something that I will have to deal with. I violated my principles, I became something I detested. I'm not sure I will ever be able to cleanse myself of this, but I am going to try and do what I think is the right thing.

 

 

 

Your fear is ..... What if her husband won't let her. Because If she was going to leave him, she already would have told him. He isn't going to let her have a friendship with you.

 

That is what I think is really bothering you. From what I have read.

 

Yes.

[Oakley]

In his first post, OP stated that he and his wife have decided to end their marriage, there will be no reconcilliation.

[SeaBrooke]

Brionikos: Looks like we did post at the same time. So this the deal you entered into with your wife was one you had thought of and were comfortable with. My guess is that you still are? So the divorce then is not an issue for you really nor the terms of your agreement.

 

 

I can understand you want to maintain, a friendship with her. When I was the OW, xMM and I tried that too. These affairs seem to go through many stages.

 

I myself was married and raised a family for many years myself. Never became the OW until years after I was divorced. Kind of Ironic huh?

 

But, if she has all this hellish, stuff going on as you've posted about little details of your relationship with her coming to light, at this time with her hubby. He's not going to be very understanding about the continued contact, because he's been living his life believing he could trust her, and she's violated that in having a relationship with you.

 

In your original post, you say the YOU, just ended an affair. Then do her a favor, and let her go. Let her be 100% present in her marriage. Let them have their privacy and deal with the aftermath on their own.

 

The thing with affairs, when they are over......it is very very difficult to remain friends, sometimes it's because of the chemistry,sex etc. It's hard to go from lovers and intimacy to the non physical. It happens, and you both could do that, but it's not just about You and Her anymore.

 

She is chosing her Marriage, and that makes HIM the largest part of this equasion. He is First now, not you and not her. I feel for you, and her too. But the reality is, As long as she is talking to you, because of everything that has happened between you both, he is unlikely to believe her that the sexual aspect of your relationship has stopped.

 

He will feel threatened, of your presence in her world, even via text or email messages, because essential it keeps the door ajar. Having said that, put yourself in his shoes maybe. That miight help you have an easier time, in deciding how you should really handle this matter.

 

I'm sure you feel you would like to help her, if the walls are starting to crumble around her because of the affair. But, she and her hubby need to resolve it, and it's not in your hands anymore.

 

I just see your being around, even via txr, and emails will only cause her more problems. Things have a way of surfacing. It won't in the long run be a help at all.

 

I'm sure you know the right thing to do for everybody, and you know all the details of all this far better than I do.

 

But, I wish all of you the best, and peace.

[Brionikos]

How's about a little update in the wondeful world of Brionikos' infidelity!

 

I backed out of the deal, I did not want to remain a slave to my mistakes.

 

Quick Background: W and I have a theraputic way of dealing with things, we do the "write a letter" thing - but never send it, just throw it away. We have gone a little more technie and now do it as an e-mail.

 

 

My W wrote - but did not send OMW's H an e-mail. W got called away to work unexpectedly. A couple hours later, my 13 year-old daughter logged on to her mom's (my W) computer, and lo and behold... the e-mail was up. (W and I have seperate PCs, I never log on to her's unless there is an "IT" issue.)

 

My daughter read the e-mail "to be sent" to MW's H. My daughter hit the send button.

 

The results were not pretty, OMW's H threatened my W.

 

I read the e-mail that was sent, it wasn't very graphic and it didn't lay out the details. It was more her asking questions of OMW's H. She never stated the fact that there was sex involved.

 

OMW's H threatened my W. I still cannot get over it.

 

OMW contacted me the next day, and started disparaging my W (this was before I knew it had been sent) and told me W had sent the e-mail. I went ballistic.

 

It has put me in a very awkward position, and in its own way has actually brought my W and I closer, where we are now considering saving what we have.

 

 

Results:

 

Family counseling starts this week. I have to find a way to make amends to my daughter.

 

I wrote OMW a final e-mail, stating she and I can never, ever, talk again. I won't put my family through this garbage anymore, and I won't stand for my W to be threatened - even if she and I don't stay together. I then told OMW the following - what will happen if she contacts me ever again:

 

What is the nuclear option? It is everything. I will tell everything. Dates and times. I will provide information on conversations I shouldn't have been privy to because I shouldn't have been there: I will tell what hotels you called that night, within five minutes of the times made. I will tell portions of conversations you had with Nick on nights we were together. I will provide .dat files of all our IMs. I will tell things about your body that no other man should know, that no other man could know unless they were intimate with you. Hell, I might even channel the biggest a*****e in history (whomever that may be) and deliver the news in person - at least then I could have the satisfaction of getting my a** kicked for being such a f******d. It disgusts me that this is what I have to become... what I have to do... don't make me become a total f******d.

 

That chapter is now over in my life. A new one is about to begin.

[bentnotbroken]

WOW:eek: God has a way of exposing the things done in the dark to the light. I am sad that your daughter was exposed to the nastiness, that's always one of the consequences that no one really considers. The true pain of the kids. I have read on here how they will adjust and get over, but why should they have been put in the position to get over it or adjust? It kills a part of their innonce that they never get back.

[Chrome Barracuda]

All that lying, deceit, misguided projection of half truths, to protect the specter of the affair.

 

And in the end it all meant nothing...

[Brionikos]

I feel so very different now, like I am waking up from a horrible dream.

"Who was that person that did all those vile things?" I ask myself.

 

Using the threat of the "Nuclear Option" I think was exactly what I needed, to make a stand on who's side I am really on.

 

When things were being said about my wife the day after the e-mail had been sent (and prior to the whole story being known), it did something, made me think "What right do you have saying that about her? What did she really do to deserve your spite? She didn't force us to have an affair. She didn't force us to lie. She didn't force you to spread your legs, and she certainly didn't force me to have sex with you. She didn't break any vows. How is she the 'bad-guy'?"

 

It made me truly realise how hurt my wife was... how much pain she was really in. How truly strong she is. Whether she and I make it (now that we are going to give it another chance), I am in awe of her.

 

 

I no longer care what happens between OMW and her H. If he wants to bury his head in the sand, all the more power to him. If she wants to continue lying, all the more power to her. I will care about her as a person, and hope she can lead a happy life, but que sera sera. She is now forever out of my life, and I can focus on what is truly important to me. I lost a friend, but I think I may have regained another friend once lost to me - my wife.

 

 

My wife, my daughter, and I took a break from reality over the weekend, went back to when we were a functional, happy family.

 

Family counseling, well I hope it helps. My daughter wants Individual counseling as well, and I will give that to her. I will work every day to regain her trust... work so she can once again have faith in her dad, that she one day will know that her dad is a good man who did bad thing. It will be a long road... but no matter how long or hard, it will be the only thing in my life worth doing.

 

Life will never be the same, but with a little hard work and a little hope, life will get better.

 

B

[2sunny]

i'm sorry for this latest turn of events that has your wife in such a chaotic position.

 

i'm unclear as to why she would have addressed an email to the OMW or her H... if it was intended to only be read by you - wouldn't she have put your email address in the info to be sent?

 

it seems your daughter thought she was helping out - but i can't understand such a big blunder... how did your W have that email address to begin with?