Owl Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 Kind of a general question to all the OW/OM out there... What exactly are you looking for when you post here? What is "support"? Are you looking for advice/support in continuing your affair with MM/MW? Are you looking for advice/support in ending your affair? Are you looking for objective recommendations on which of these choices you should make? Are you looking for advice from others who have been involved in an affair in some fashion? Bottom line...was is it...exactly...that you're hoping to find by posting? What do you hope to gain from your time spent here?
PLAYBRAT Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 Hey OWl.....good thread. I think for ME...I began looking for one thing and ended up finding another. I started reading this forum to gain insight into how affairs generally turn out. The more I read the more I realized this was NOT the R for me....and I deserved better. I learned Affairs are destructive...for EVERYONE. I learned that I have more integrity than I realized.. and so do many OTHERS who post here. All in all it's been a positive experience for me.
Tony Posted December 4, 2007 Senior Moderators Posted December 4, 2007 I think this is a very legitimate thread seeking important information that we can all use. I don't want this thread to end up being a war zone with a lot of members getting banned. Let's please stay on topic and answer the original post with enough detail that all will understand it completely. These are questions that I've wondered myself. Many posts in this category are vague and do not set forth a need. I am also requesting that people who come into this category give what is requested without lectures about morality. This is not a venue for sermons, it is a place to give help or simply listen to rants. Many thanks!
Tony Posted December 4, 2007 Senior Moderators Posted December 4, 2007 Hey OWl.....good thread. I think for ME...I began looking for one thing and ended up finding another. I started reading this forum to gain insight into how affairs generally turn out. The more I read the more I realized this was NOT the R for me....and I deserved better. I learned Affairs are destructive...for EVERYONE. I learned that I have more integrity than I realized.. and so do many OTHERS who post here. All in all it's been a positive experience for me. I had to really concentrate hard to find how this post related to the original thread. Try to make those kinds of things more obvious. This thread did not answer EVEN ONE of the OP's questions.
Shades of Grey Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 For me when I first found this site I was in SUCH despair and turmoil. I saw there were people here who knew what it was like and who have been through the same things and for someone who was never able to share anything about the situation with anyone else that was a huge support to me in itself.
CAT100 Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 Kind of a general question to all the OW/OM out there... What exactly are you looking for when you post here? What is "support"? 'Support' for me is feeling that I am talking to others than understand what it is like to be the OW, even if they do not necessarily agree with it Are you looking for advice/support in continuing your affair with MM/MW? I am not looking for encouragement as such. Advice yes Are you looking for advice/support in ending your affair? No I am not currently planning on ending the affair Are you looking for objective recommendations on which of these choices you should make? Yes. to some extent. Any constructive advice is welcome even if I do not agree with it Are you looking for advice from others who have been involved in an affair in some fashion? Yes of course. The most valuable advice, and the advice I listen to most is that which comes from someone who is or has been in my situation. As the saying goes 'never judge someone unless you have walked in their shoes...' Bottom line...was is it...exactly...that you're hoping to find by posting? What do you hope to gain from your time spent here? I hope to gain insight from others in the same/similar situation. To talk to others about how they deal with their situation, and see if I can learn anything from them To be able to 'vent' as I cannot do this with family or friends To help other people who are the OW as much as I can To get objective constructive advice about myself and my MM as far as is possible To make some online 'friends' that I can talk to & who can talk to me
OpenBook Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 Kind of a general question to all the OW/OM out there... What exactly are you looking for when you post here? What is "support"? Are you looking for advice/support in continuing your affair with MM/MW? Are you looking for advice/support in ending your affair? Are you looking for objective recommendations on which of these choices you should make? Are you looking for advice from others who have been involved in an affair in some fashion? Bottom line...was is it...exactly...that you're hoping to find by posting? What do you hope to gain from your time spent here? Insight, insight, and more insight!! Presenting my situation or point of view... and hoping that somewhere in the responses I'll be able to glean enough information to look at the "big picture" and determine the best course of action for myself. Also, when I see someone else posting who is now in a place where I've been before, providing them with the same advice I only WISH I could have received then!! And one more thing... I can't stand to see somebody being picked on. So unfortunately I go in and defend them... and sometimes get way off-topic. (Sorry, Tony!) I need to work on that!
PLAYBRAT Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 **Tony, thank you for pointing that out.I didn't exactly answer the OP's question properly..so now I will... Kind of a general question to all the OW/OM out there... What exactly are you looking for when you post here? Probably someone I can "vent" to..without criticism, blame or judgement. What is "support"? Something or someone I can count on in to be there in my hour of need....or the opportunity to be there for someone in theirs. Are you looking for advice/support in continuing your affair with MM/MW? Advice yes. Not validation. Are you looking for advice/support in ending your affair? Initially I wasn't...but realized after reading for a while that it IS what I was looking for. Are you looking for objective recommendations on which of these choices you should make? Definetely. Witout finger pointing , or blame. Are you looking for advice from others who have been involved in an affair in some fashion? Yes....though i take into account EVERYONES POV. There are so many insightful posters that it would be unfair to disregard anyone simply because they are not in my position. Bottom line...was is it...exactly...that you're hoping to find by posting? What do you hope to gain from your time spent here? I am hoping to find peace in my decision, and the knowledge that goes along with it. I hope in some way I can help someone else who has been in a similar position...and help THEM gain peace as well. I hope this reply was better
nadiaj2727 Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 It's funny you should ask this Owl, because I was thinking of this last night. I was thinking about the type of "support" this forum provided me in the beginning and the type of support I want to try to help other OWs with. I remembered that when I was an OW, I didn't have anyone to talk to except my out-of-state sister (and my therapist and my diary lol). When I was all swooning over xMM and thinking we were going to be together forever, I didn't feel the need to talk about it with anyone... I thought that after he got divorced, we would have a happy relationship and no one would ever know I had been his OW (in fact I didn't even consider myself an OW since I thought he was separated pending divorce.) But once I started to get stressed/ frustrated/ depressed/ guilty about my situation and realize that he was taking an awfully long time to get divorced, I look for "support" online... in the form of articles about separated men, forums where I could ask some questions for people's advice, etc. I needed an outlet to be able to talk about it without feeling "judged" by real life people. I think I was ready to be "judged" by online people b/c I was juding myself at that point -- I knew there was something funny about my situation and I was looking for a way out -- and they didn't know me so it was easier for me to hear tough love advice from "strangers." So to me, support was being able to say, "this is my story, please tell me what you think I should do," because I was at a total loss. I couldn't even be completely honest with my therapist because I felt so ashamed to admit the truth. Here on LS, I could be honest and part of me wanted to hear the "what are you doing?!" comments even though I didn't think that's what I wanted to hear. I've realized that some OWs just want to come talk about being an OW without having someone say "this is not a good situation for you." However, I find it really hard to do that, since I know how miserable I was in that situation and how happy and strong I felt to get out of it, with the help of posters on here... so my tendency is to provide the variety of advice that says "just cut off all ties and wait and see if he gets divorced", because that's what helped me. Plus, since I came here in turmoil, it's hard for me to see why any happy OW would come here and ask for advice. But I've realized that some just want to talk with other OWs, so I try to stay out of those conversations now, since I'm not an OW and the only thing I could think of to say is "honey don't be an OW." I think other OWs come on here just to gloat or stir up trouble, and they kind of ruin it, in my opinion, for the OWs who just want to say, "here's my story, I'm having a problem with this issue..." or for OWs like I used to be who come here to find out that they even are an OW, that it's not a "unique" situation like they thought, and that they need to get out of it. That being said I am trying to offer more "support" in terms of trying to accept that some women may want to stay in an affair for some reason. This is hard for me to understand, b/c as soon as I realized I was IN an affair, not a real relationship, I wanted out and I didn't see how anyone could want to stay in something so messed up!!, but I am really trying to understand that so that perhaps I can be more supportive.
imstunned Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 What exactly are you looking for when you post here? -A for me this froum is a place to talk and offload as people in my real life are sick of me talking about my situation What is "support"? A - support comes for me from people postng replies to my posts and just acknowledging my situation, pain and upset. Are you looking for advice/support in continuing your affair with MM/MW? No - but had my situation turned out differently then I could have been looking for advce or supprt on how to continue the affair Are you looking for advice/support in ending your affair? A - no, but have found the information people have offered about how and why affairs end really helpful Are you looking for objective recommendations on which of these choices you should make? A - No - I KNOW what decision I should have made even though the choice was taken off me Are you looking for advice from others who have been involved in an affair in some fashion? A - Yes - I find it comforting that there are others who are/have been involved in similar situations - they know how it feels. Bottom line...was is it...exactly...that you're hoping to find by posting? What do you hope to gain from your time spent here? For Me LS has been a great find as it has allowed me to post and offload, cry and vent without people in my real life rolling their eyes at me. People in my own life have clearly had difficulty comprehending the pain I have felt upon discovering my "boyfriend" was a married man - but people here have been able to empathise and sypmathise. I hope - though talking things through with the people here that I will eventually see that I - rather than his wife - am the lucky one and that he is no prize.
Author Owl Posted December 4, 2007 Author Posted December 4, 2007 And, I'd like to add this from my own viewpoint. I'm not an OM/MM...I'm an ex-BS. I'm not bitter, not angry, and don't 'hate' anyone. I'm not here to bash anyone either. I've been through a LOT. I've dealt with infidelity in my own personal experience, I've spent a lot of time on this and other boards for a couple of years. I've done quite a bit of personal research, and bluntly, I'm the guy everyone comes and talks to when they've got a personal problem. I'm here to offer 'support' as I see it, where I can. I want to help people make the right choices, and stick to them. A lot of times, its hard for someone who's currently IN a situation to see what those choices are, or see how they can implement them when they make them. So I come here to help. To maybe help people avoid getting into the kind of situation I went through, or to help them deal with it if they're already there. That's about it.
OpenBook Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 And, I'd like to add this from my own viewpoint. I'm not an OM/MM...I'm an ex-BS. I'm not bitter, not angry, and don't 'hate' anyone. I'm not here to bash anyone either. I've been through a LOT. I've dealt with infidelity in my own personal experience, I've spent a lot of time on this and other boards for a couple of years. I've done quite a bit of personal research, and bluntly, I'm the guy everyone comes and talks to when they've got a personal problem. I'm here to offer 'support' as I see it, where I can. I want to help people make the right choices, and stick to them. A lot of times, its hard for someone who's currently IN a situation to see what those choices are, or see how they can implement them when they make them. So I come here to help. To maybe help people avoid getting into the kind of situation I went through, or to help them deal with it if they're already there. That's about it. And this is where I think a lot of the friction starts. Regardless of our intentions, we cannot really know - nor is it our place to determine - what is the "right" choice for someone else. We are each going thru our own life experiences... and learning different lessons. What is "right" for the poster may be totally different from our own definition of what is right. This may be what Tony referred to when he asked that people refrain from lecturing morality. Then again, it may not be. I could be totally wrong.:D
writeon Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 I think this is a very legitimate thread seeking important information that we can all use. I don't want this thread to end up being a war zone with a lot of members getting banned. Let's please stay on topic and answer the original post with enough detail that all will understand it completely. These are questions that I've wondered myself. Many posts in this category are vague and do not set forth a need. I am also requesting that people who come into this category give what is requested without lectures about morality. This is not a venue for sermons, it is a place to give help or simply listen to rants. Many thanks! I don't understand how we can discuss affairs without discussing morality, as many people consider affairs morally wrong. Are they not supposed to voice their opinion? I understand that they shouldn't say "you are morally wrong", but I thought that the rules permitted us to say "the idea of having physical intimacy outside a marriage without informing the other partner is morally wrong"? Am I incorrect? I guess I just don't understand the point of this forum in general, although I'm trying to. I feel like I am going to get in trouble just for asking this question, if people have been "banned." Banned for what? To me it is pointless to give "support" to someone without suggesting "perhaps this is not the right thing to do for everyone involved"? It seems Tony that you are saying that people who talk about morality/ right versus wrong on this forum get banned? If so, I guess I shouldn't be here... Anyway, to me support (at least in the context of a public forum) involves listening, trying to understand/ empathize, and giving constructive criticism and helpful advice. I understand that it doesn't mean screaming "you're immoral!" but I thought it encompassed "maybe you should think about how this choice is affecting your life and whether this choice is good or bad." But now I'm just all confused lol.
reboot Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 And this is where I think a lot of the friction starts. Regardless of our intentions, we cannot really know - nor is it our place to determine - what is the "right" choice for someone else. We are each going thru our own life experiences... and learning different lessons. What is "right" for the poster may be totally different from our own definition of what is right. This may be what Tony referred to when he asked that people refrain from lecturing morality. Then again, it may not be. I could be totally wrong.:DAbsolutely. Exactly. And that being the case, all we can do is offer our experiences to them and let them sort out what works best. The problem often is that a lot of people don't want to hear anything that differs from what they've already decided they want to hear. Just because someone says something someone else doesn't agree with doesn't mean they're bashing anyone or lecturing morality. Anyway, this probably isn't really on-topic so I'll shut up.
NoIDidn't Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 I hope not incur an infraction from Tony for this, as I am not in the limited group that Owl is addressing. This is my opinion on why many OW/OM post here. 1. They are looking for a place to talk and vent about their situations. Not necessarily for morality lessons. I think they already know that about the sitch and really have no one IRL to talk to so candidly or anonymously. 2. I don't think anyone comes here truly looking for advice on how to end an A. I think they come looking for others that have been or are in their shoes. I don't think it helps much, though, to already only want to hear one POV. And unfortunately, the ex-OPs are the least likely to be listened to as the enquirers aren't really looking to be told to end the A. I really think they want help in continuing the A. They want to know if what they are feeling under the circumstances is normal. They want to know what others have done in response to similar actions taken by their MP/AP. Whether its considered help continuing the A in their eyes or not, it is what it is. Its possible to have "supportive" discussions without going into morals even if they are wanting to keep in the A. But the forum rules are really confusing in regard to responding to "groups" or "individuals" or "factions" or whatever. And you can't help having them in this context. But if the Mods don't want the threads in this area to degenerate into bantering and other discussions of what to some is common sense, this forum may need to have additional restrictions and logons before ANYONE is allowed to post here. Its a volatile topic.
nadiaj2727 Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 2. I don't think anyone comes here truly looking for advice on how to end an A. I think they come looking for others that have been or are in their shoes. I think some people come here asking for advice about what to do about their situation (their guilt/ frustration/ etc.) and receive advice about ending the affair and then decide to take it. (That was me). Perhaps they knew they needed to end the affair when they came here, they just weren't ready to admit it. I believe I have seen some posts where people come here saying "I know I need to get out, but I don't know if I'm strong enough" etc. But I can't remember any specifically at the moment. I've seen a lot of "what should I do?" posts, like the ones I used to post. I think other people come here wanting sympathy for their guilt/ frustration without the advice to leave the affair. That's when it becomes unclear what kind of "support" these posters want or need. Do they need support to continue staying in something that they are saying makes them feel down? I'm not sure. That's what puzzles me.
Meaplus3 Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 Kind of a general question to all the OW/OM out there... What exactly are you looking for when you post here? What is "support"? Are you looking for advice/support in continuing your affair with MM/MW? Are you looking for advice/support in ending your affair? Are you looking for objective recommendations on which of these choices you should make? Are you looking for advice from others who have been involved in an affair in some fashion? Bottom line...was is it...exactly...that you're hoping to find by posting? What do you hope to gain from your time spent here? For me, I came here to ask if I was in an ea, and very well into the ea before finding LS. I stayed around to ask question's with regard's to ea's/a's in order to cope with the sitaution and try to end it. Now my ea is long over and I just like the site in general. AP:)
bish Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 I am also requesting that people who come into this category give what is requested without lectures about morality. This is not a venue for sermons, it is a place to give help or simply listen to rants. uh...i don't think a rant would be appropriate either....dont you?
JMC Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 So simple..... Listening, acknowledgements, validations, observations, viewpoints, anecdotes, discussion W I T H O U T judging, hostility, disrespect, "shoulds", blatant accusations, glaring assumptions, projecting personal situation rage and anger on us, unfairly comparing us to who your H might have cheated on you with, lumping us all in as one big group of immature, evil, sleazy, husband-chasin' harlots...come on! We're not kids. Being in an EMA was not our grand "dream" in life. It's not our ideal situation. But some of us are in them.
Author Owl Posted December 4, 2007 Author Posted December 4, 2007 JMC- I can agree with most of what you say... Being insulted/attacked/etc...doesn't do any good. But I would also like to point out that comparing what you're going through to what others have gone through is valid...because while most OP hate to hear this, these things truly do seem to follow a 'script' that varies very little on a case by case basis. And getting advice on how to deal with the situation from people who have seen this before is probably the single great thing that I think anyone could get here. Listening and simply commiserating solves nothing...the only way to make a bad situation better is to make a change. If you change nothing...nothing changes.
OWoman Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 Kind of a general question to all the OW/OM out there... What exactly are you looking for when you post here? What is "support"? Are you looking for advice/support in continuing your affair with MM/MW? Are you looking for advice/support in ending your affair? Are you looking for objective recommendations on which of these choices you should make? Are you looking for advice from others who have been involved in an affair in some fashion? Bottom line...was is it...exactly...that you're hoping to find by posting? What do you hope to gain from your time spent here? OK Owl, I'll give it a shot: I came looking for advice on a specific issue, hoping to learn from the experiences of others who'd been through something similar (and I'd originally envisioned it as specifically those in a similar position on a similar situation, ie other OWs / OMs rather than BSs). It wasn't that I had no one to speak to about these kinds of things - where I live, As are commonplace, pretty mainstream and there's no stigma attached - but I wanted the space to be able to raise the kinds of things I'd feel uncomfortable raising with people who know me and MM, because of issues of loyalty and confidentiality. I thought an anonymous space would be helpful in terms of speaking freely, and having others speak freely in return. What I got was so much more than I expected - both good and bad! On the down side, I got some real rockets - I suppose the "speaking freely" that anonymity offers also allows people to call others whores etc for being unrepentant about not sharing their moral views; I discovered how intolerant some people can be which blew my mind a little as people where I live are just not like that; I discovered how easily I could also be drawn into flame wars and off-topic meanderings and less-than-helpful exchanges; I discovered that there are some posters who, the more they post, the less I like, and that we'll probably never find common ground... On the up side, I found a whole bunch of people with a lot of wisdom, insight, humour and compassion to offer; I found a number of my prejudices challenged; I found myself relating to situations I'd never have been able to imagine myself in, with understanding; I found a community that was supportive to members and open to newbies, as well as being challenging and at times brutally honest with each other and that was largely motivated by good intentions (with some exceptions, as one would expect). I found some surprising things and people to respect. I didn't come looking for support either to continue, or to end, the affair. We were moving from an A to a full-time, long-term R (it's been open from the start to everyone but his W) and neither of those was, or is, really relevant. But from the experience of those who'd lived through analogous situations FROM EITHER SIDE I learned a great deal of what was likely, or even just possible, to arise as an issue, and it's made me better prepared to face it as it happens. It's brought me face to face with the full complexity of the situation. And probably moderated my behaviour in some ways as a result. And, in turn, it's created a space to share some of the insights and views I've gained through the process for others to reflect on, take or leave as suits their situations. Owl, I suppose, to sum up in response to your final question, what I hope to gain is some insight and perspective that can inform my choices, moderate my behaviour, polish my understanding and emerge in time as something which in turn might be of some use to someone else some other time. Not sure if those were the kinds of answers you were looking for...?
Gwyneth Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 What exactly are you looking for when you post here? I'm really just venting and it's easier for me to write out how I feel than talking to my friends and family about it. A little bit of optimism, understanding, and some support is always nice. Hearing the negative side of it isn't what I'm here for. What is "support"? Support is trying to understand where I'm coming from by not referring to me as naive, immature, stupid, clueless, and other names I have been called on here. I really thought I'd only be talking to other [current] OW on here--not BSs. I think it's a real bad idea for OW and BSs to be in the same room. Are you looking for advice/support in continuing your affair with MM/MW? No. I'll continue or not continue at my own will. I am a big girl and make decisions and choices for myself. Are you looking for advice/support in ending your affair? Depends on the time of the month. Are you looking for objective recommendations on which of these choices you should make? Sometimes, such as "what should I have said when asked if I was his girlfriend." Instead, I got a lot of nasty replies and lectures about morality. I know I'm wrong, so I'm not here to see over and over that I'm wrong and clueless. I'm confused--I think that's quite simple and understandable. Are you looking for advice from others who have been involved in an affair in some fashion? Depends. I hate negative endings, and when a negative ending happened to one person, I think sometimes they assume it will happen to anyone else. I have seen many affairs work out for the best for the OP. I have a bit of optimism. Bottom line...was is it...exactly...that you're hoping to find by posting? What do you hope to gain from your time spent here? I just need to vent sometimes, or come here to express my feelings, like I would to a diary, or a best friend. I am not here for a whole lot of negative feedback, or--as I have said--being told how naive and immature I am. That is definitely not what I need to hear. JMC Said, and I completely agree with: So simple..... Listening, acknowledgements, validations, observations, viewpoints, anecdotes, discussion W I T H O U T judging, hostility, disrespect, "shoulds", blatant accusations, glaring assumptions, projecting personal situation rage and anger on us, unfairly comparing us to who your H might have cheated on you with, lumping us all in as one big group of immature, evil, sleazy, husband-chasin' harlots...come on! We're not kids. Being in an EMA was not our grand "dream" in life. It's not our ideal situation. But some of us are in them. VERY well said, JMC. Thank you for asking, Owl--I think you are really trying to understand us Others, and to me, that shows you have a big heart
JMC Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 JMC- But I would also like to point out that comparing what you're going through to what others have gone through is valid...because while most OP hate to hear this, these things truly do seem to follow a 'script' that varies very little on a case by case basis. Comparing per se is OK; it's just the nasty, sneering, derisive, contemptuous attitudes that sometimes accompany it that none of us deserve. Listening and simply commiserating solves nothing...the only way to make a bad situation better is to make a change. If you change nothing...nothing changes. I don't mean this mean at all - not trying to start anything here!!!! - but your second quote - I hope I'm perceiving it wrong when I say that it sounds like the exact sort of blanket assumption I repeatedly see on this board. Not every situation presented here and posted about is "bad"!! It is completely up to each individual to decide if their situation is good or bad, and it should be their option to listen and commiserate about it, in my opinion. I wonder about this board - it seems to carry an overall, unwritten theme of "Other Women/Men: We know what's best for you and will pound it into your head whether you want to hear it or not". If this is S O....then Moderators please rename this forum to reflect such.
OpenBook Posted December 4, 2007 Posted December 4, 2007 I'm going to honor Tony's request that we not let this thread break down into a discussion of moral's, or 'right and wrong'. Morality wasn't part of the question. And I believe that's what Tony was trying to make clear. Oh, OK. So you're directing this at only CERTAIN posters who shouldn't be allowed to talk about morality... but it's OK for you and others (that you deign) to talk about it. Gotcha. Now I understand. I want to help people make the right choices, and stick to them. 1. They are looking for a place to talk and vent about their situations. Not necessarily for morality lessons... Its possible to have "supportive" discussions without going into morals even if they are wanting to keep in the A. So simple..... Listening, acknowledgements, validations, observations, viewpoints, anecdotes, discussion W I T H O U T judging, hostility, disrespect, "shoulds", blatant accusations,... On the down side, I got some real rockets - I suppose the "speaking freely" that anonymity offers also allows people to call others whores etc for being unrepentant about not sharing their moral views; I discovered how intolerant some people can be which blew my mind a little as people where I live are just not like that...
Author Owl Posted December 4, 2007 Author Posted December 4, 2007 Openbook- If you take note... My response was to indicate that this thread isn't to sit and discuss what's right/moral, etc... My attempt to answer the question does talk about what's "right"...but I'm not attempting to DEFINE that, or DEBATE it, on this thread. What I'm trying to avoid is discussing that "right and wrong", and focus on seeing what reasons people are posting here. The right/wrong/moral discussion NEEDS to take place...but please do so on a seperate thread to keep from distracting from THIS discussion. If you want to discuss about right/wrong moral...start your own thread. I'll gladly post and discuss there. Thanks.
Recommended Posts