What is a TRUE "Nice Guy"?

I keep reading and hearing all the time, on this site, and in life in general that "nice guys" get the shaft.

While I certainly can't speak for everyone, I think there are two kinds of "nice guys." I'm sure many will come on here claiming to be guy #1, and that they've just had no luck either, but I think there are really two kinds of "nice guys" out there. Feel free to chime in with what you think, but here is how I differentiate between a TRUE "nice guy" and a guy who thinks he's a "nice guy."

Nice guys:

- are reliable, call when they say they will, don't flake on you and follow through on promises.

- don't name call, have anger-management problems and treat others respectfully.

- are willing to forego their preferences at times to make their girlfriends happy, but understand give and take and demand "me" time.

- are willing to compromise, communicate their needs and aren't defensive in their responses.

- stand up for what they believe in, don't say whatever they feel will please her and does it all respectfully and thoughtfully. They have their own identity, their own thoughts and their own lives.

Thinks-he's-a-nice-guy guys -

- are constantly foregoing their own needs to give in to her; rarely express an opinion, and do whatever she wants to do.

- are conflict avoidant, don't express their needs or thoughts openly and have poor communication skills. They pretend that "everything is ok" so as not to risk a fight or a breakup.

- overcompensate for their own insecurities by giving too much, too soon. They invest too early, fall in love in a short amount of time and have unspoken expectations that she should behave like him or invest to the degree that he does. They get frustrated when she doesn't as a result, yet grow frustrated with her and passively blame her.

- don't demand "me" time or a real role in the relationship. They lose their identities, their friends, and consequently fall apart without her in their lives.

While both guys are nice, kind, and even possibly generous, they are very different animals. The first "nice guy" demands your respect, gives and takes and is willing to discuss issues. He keeps some things close to the hip and reveals others, when the time is right. He treats you with respect, because he respects himself.

And while the second "nice guy" is almost always kind and respectful, he lacks his own identity and wraps his entire existence up in his relationship. He is constantly frustrated and butting heads in his relationship because she just "isn't feeling it" the way he is, and he can't understand - because he's so NICE - why his relationships keep falling apart. And, in the meantime, he subscribes to the theory that women only like jerks because she goes on to date someone will will stand up for himself and has healthful boundaries, a mindset which lessens his chances of succeeding in relationships.

I'm sure this will create much discussion and, obviously, it's only my opinion and my observations based on my experiences in the past several years. And yes, I think an argument can be made for a gender reversal as well, but I don't constantly see "Nice girls can't get a break!" posted all over LS.

Thoughts?

Nice guys:

- are reliable, call when they say they will, don't flake on you and follow through on promises.

- don't name call, have anger-management problems and treat others respectfully.

- are willing to forego their preferences at times to make their girlfriends happy, but understand give and take and demand "me" time.

- are willing to compromise, communicate their needs and aren't defensive in their responses.

- stand up for what they believe in, don't say whatever they feel will please her and does it all respectfully and thoughtfully. They have their own identity, their own thoughts and their own lives.

this is "normal guy"

Yup. Spot on, IMO.

Nice guys:

- are reliable, call when they say they will, don't flake on you and follow through on promises.

- don't name call, have anger-management problems and treat others respectfully.

- are willing to forego their preferences at times to make their girlfriends happy, but understand give and take and demand "me" time.

- are willing to compromise, communicate their needs and aren't defensive in their responses.

- stand up for what they believe in, don't say whatever they feel will please her and does it all respectfully and thoughtfully. They have their own identity, their own thoughts and their own lives.

 

The true traits of a nice guy are: honesty, integrity, dependability, faithfulness, commitment, and an unrelenting desire to act honorably towards all women without a motive of seeking a reward. Much of what you said falls into the above.

It is the hardest road any man could choose to take (and it is a conscience choice). It requires the highest level of self control and sacrifice. But when you die, you will be long remembered far more than any jerk who banged 20 hot women because it feels good, or "Hey, they wanted it".

...But when you die, you will be long remembered far more than any jerk who banged 20 hot women because it feels good, or "Hey, they wanted it".

I think I'd rather bang 20 hot women because it feels good...and not be remembered at all.

Why is it assumed that a "jerk" is a guy who is goodlooking and can get a lot of women in bed? Now if a man is handsome and wanted by females he is automatically labeled a "jerk"? How unfair! That is like females labeling all gorgeous women "sluts". WTF?

You're confusing nice guy with "Good, Well Balanced" men. There's a huge difference.

Nice guys are mostly DOOR MATS. They don't do nice things because they feel like it. They do it with an ulterior motive (to be liked, loved, for favors in return, etc). This is manipulative -- and deep down, all "nice guys" lack confidence.

Jerks are just as bad as nice guys, lacking confidence just as nice guys do, they just display it differently. Instead of being a people-pleasing-door mat, they treat people like crap. In this way, no one ever gets close enough to "hurt" them.

Well balanced men do good things because that's just who they are. They aren't looking for recognition or rewards. They simply enjoy doing good things. They're mean when they need to be and nice when they should be but they NEVER stay in either mode for long. They are WELL BALANCED men.

Cheers.

You're confusing nice guy with "Good, Well Balanced" men. There's a huge difference.

Fair enough. Since so many self-proclaimed "nice guys" constantly post about how women always want the "jerks" and elect to label themselves as "nice guys," it was easy for me to use such terminology.

I'd agree that the different types could be labelled "Well-balanced men" and "Nice guys," but I think the distinction between the two is still sound.

Also, good point, sagetalk. I agree.

The true traits of a nice guy are: honesty, integrity, dependability, faithfulness, commitment, and an unrelenting desire to act honorably towards all women without a motive of seeking a reward. Much of what you said falls into the above.

 

It is the hardest road any man could choose to take (and it is a conscience choice). It requires the highest level of self control and sacrifice. But when you die, you will be long remembered far more than any jerk who banged 20 hot women because it feels good, or "Hey, they wanted it".

That's right, guys. Die a virgin and let the women remember you as that sweet, somewhat awkward "friend" who they loved to pour their hearts out to after being dumped by yet another jerk. How noble.

That's right, guys. Die a virgin and let the women remember you as that sweet, somewhat awkward "friend" who they loved to pour their hearts out to after being dumped by yet another jerk. How noble.

Yup. What good is being remembered if you live a miserable life here on earth?

As for me, a nice guy is one who does not state by his behavior that he wants to have sex after the first dates. A nice guy is willing to offer his friendship to a girl, not just to use a girl as a sexual subject called sl.t.

A jerk is a guy who states by his behavior that he wants to use girls as disposable sexual objects.

Thinks-he's-a-nice-guy guys -

- are constantly foregoing their own needs to give in to her;

Or rather aren't high maintenance types and just don't care where to go eat lunch every time or what she wears out. Some men who are fairly content with life and laid back (otherwise known as generally HAPPY, not a word in many female vocabularies) get branded "too nice" because they just don't care about small stuff, and 99% of life is small stuff.

The above often decodes into "is not providing my drama quota which I require because I'm jaded and without my drama pickmeup for the day, feel dead inside otherwise. Gee that guy on the harley threatening some other guy with a broken beer bottle looks like he'd keep my drama tank all full up! Rawr!"

Girls just want to have fun, as Cyndi L. said, but men just want to relax and lead a stress-free, harmonious existence, no wonder you put us in the grave faster than we do you.

rarely express an opinion, and do whatever she wants to do.

It's only been in the highly feminized second half of the 20th century that people were expected to go around spouting opinions about everything under the sun. Moreover, some (mostly male) people learn that if they aren't knowledgeable enough on a particular subject, that perhaps any opinion they express will be ignorant and thus not worthy of the energy spent forming the vowels. Silence used to be an enviable trait, not some evil. "Keep your ears open and mouth shut" used to mean something. "Actions speak louder than words" used to be a statement of virtue... until our culture became so radically feminized. Now if you are a man, you are damned if you don't show enough feminine traits and damned if you show too many, but all of them inevitably involve keeping your mouth open at all times in person, via text, on the phone.

This kind of shame/common sense mechanism that precludes babbling on about things we don't know tends to elude many women for some reason, who will cheerfully blather forth on any topic, regardless of knowledge level, provided there are ears around to bore and annoy all to hell.

As far as doing what she wants to do all the time, most men know how to pick their battles, and rather than make life a constant female drama indulging bicker storm, just go with the flow and wait to make an issue on things that really matter to him. Another lesson women who will gladly bicker and dicker on endlessly haven't quite grasped.

- are conflict avoidant, don't express their needs or thoughts openly and have poor communication skills.

Getting into several fistfights growing up and suffering the consequences will generally teach one eventually to become at least some "conflict avoidant." As far as expressing thoughts and needs, again, this wasn't expected of men in times past, and they weren't thought "over-nice" why is it expected now? I know the answer, can anyone guess it?

Moreover, the "needs" incessant "needs" today . There are three "needs" food, clothing and shelter. Men aren't the ones who bought into Maslow's claptrap, and have no trouble at all distinguishing a -need- from a -desire-.

Finally, the good old communication skills, have heard that old chestnut of a phrase ad nausea, as has any man, yet another weasel word that had no practical existence in 1950. Wonder why it is emphasized so now? I know the answer already, can anyone else guess it?

I'm fortunate enough to be blessed with 99th percentile communication skills, and also blessed with the basic common sense to distinguish that there is a point in emotional and relationship discussions when anything resembling communication skills ceases, and emotional diahrrea begins. Am also blessed with a single brain cell worth of knowledge that tells me intuitively to take some quiet time and calm down before unloading my rather considerable verbal powers on loved ones unduly. Women will have none of it, and will sit slothfully and "communicate":lmao: for hours on end about.... nothing other than their self-indulgent hyper-emotionalizing. If you want to retire and cool off, you are conflict avoidant, incommunicative, and emotionally shut off, all feminized, Dr. Phil bogus assed weasel terms designed to guilt men for their natural masculinity.

I had a three hour "communication skills" session once about which hole to put my toothbrush in and why it was important, I sh*t you not. OH THE AGONY! Literally Ninth Circle of Hell stuff, but if I don't play along -every time-, there's something wrong with ME, right ladies?

They pretend that "everything is ok" so as not to risk a fight or a breakup.

This one is a legitimate bad habit, unless one has the not so rare misfortune of being with a woman who is prone to constant melodrama, with feelings and sensitivities thinner than the thinnest parchment. Then it becomes a necessary survival technique. Sure you can dump and move on, but since this melodramatic, paper thin sensitivity problem seems to afflict so many women, start dumping them for this alone at your sexual peril, as the ones who don't suffer thus are few and far between.

She may have gained 50 pounds in the year you have been dating, and none of her clothes fit so she wears sweatpants all the time, but o god forbid you ever mention it, in even the most tactful, subtle, affirming way, without getting in the hall and assuming the nuclear fallout position (or as they say, head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye").

- overcompensate for their own insecurities by giving too much, too soon. They invest too early, fall in love in a short amount of time and have unspoken expectations that she should behave like him or invest to the degree that he does. They get frustrated when she doesn't as a result, yet grow frustrated with her and passively blame her.

- don't demand "me" time or a real role in the relationship. They lose their identities, their friends, and consequently fall apart without her in their lives.

Eh, these two are legit, both the "pedestalizing" and the co-dependency, behaviors for anyone involved in a relationship, either gender, wise to avoid.

Why so vehement, why seemingly so bitter? I'm not really bitter, but tired to death of seeing these "faux nice guy" lists that lay every bit of blame on the men in question, and neglect entirely to lay some blame at the door of women.

Here's what I mean, the nugget of truth: Many of the behaviors that nice guys are dissed for are actually their LACK of character flaws which feed PREEXISTING character flaws in women that our hyper feminized culture has somehow converted into something other than the raw character flaws they are.

A more accurate appraisal of relationships that are usually tossed into the "nice guy" lost the girl file would be man who seeks basic masculine peace and harmony in life in ways that DON'T feed into female character flaws such as drama addiction, immature attitudes about infatuation v. love, being a general empty headed blabbermouth, being high maintenance and overly picky about every little thing (I just don't understand that they can't put the onions in rings on my Big Mac; my BF is such a wimp he doesn't care how they make his... he's just too nice sometimes).

Most of the nice guy mistakes listed above are actually drama avoidance techniques designed to prevent us from lowering ourselves into the abyss of feminized picky, blathering, blablabla, trivial crap land. Shut up for a minute and don't make an issue of every mundane thing constantly, and you might find we have excellent communication skills, we are just generally terrified to use them.

Well, at least I'm not "passive aggressive" here, time for some aggressive-aggressive attitude, guys, in expressing our disgust and anger at these "nice guy" condemnations. Nice guy, for the most part = henpecked man. Time to accept some, even just a little accountability here ladies, but you won't of course, and that's just one more reason why we have little desire to "communicate" with you.

None of the above is directed at OP or her/his post, it's as you say, a very good and much needed topic for discussion.

That is all.

PS here are some preempts:

"Where do you find these women? I don't know any." BS, they are 80% of you and you know it, you sit around and run them down more mercilessly than we ever do, you just can't stand to hear a man doing it.

"You have a bad attitude about women, why do you even date women?"

Because 20% are tolerable odds, I keep looking, but mostly because I like p*ssy very much.

"I'm tired of every thread being turned back on a rant about women."

This thread itself is a rant about men, why aren't you lined up complaining about that... until someone points out that women are at fault too in the "nice guy" dynamic. Own that big chunk of the problem laying at your door, rather than rationalize that it's all some mythical group of "nice guys" who cause all the trouble.

I'm curious. how does living a life with integrity, honesty, dependability and a willingness to sacrifice in your relationships equal a life of misery?

Meerkat - I guess I would just say that if these experiences are a common occurrence for the man in question, that perhaps he should re-evaluate his selection strategy.

No one gender is "all" anything.

I'm curious. how does living a life with integrity, honesty, dependability and a willingness to sacrifice in your relationships equal a life of misery?

In the society we live in yes unless you find a woman that truly appreciates it which is very rare. We live in a society that rewards selfishness and a me me me attitude.

Yup. What good is being remembered if you live a miserable life here on earth?

Not to mention, when you're dead, you won't care one way or another about how you're being remembered.

And yes, I think an argument can be made for a gender reversal as well, but I don't constantly see "Nice girls can't get a break!" posted all over LS.

Interesting point. From my experience, while "nice guy" and "nice girl" issues may be similar, the dynamics in dating play out very differently.

"Nice guys" usually get shut down at or before date 1. "Nice girls" still have plenty of options for dating and sex -- the greater concern is getting played, which may last days or weeks or months. If this was the way "nice guys" crashed-and-burned there would be far less complaining -- just having the dates and the sex would remind the "nice guy" that he retains at least some masculinity.

In the society we live in yes unless you find a woman that truly appreciates it which is very rare. We live in a society that rewards selfishness and a me me me attitude.

I agree with that, generally.

But I set the bar higher, personally. I know I can deliver those things, so I refuse to believe that there is a partner out there who is incapable of the same thing.

I agree with that, generally.

 

But I set the bar higher, personally. I know I can deliver those things, so I refuse to believe that there is a partner out there who is incapable of the same thing.

I don't like it either but I did not make the rules. I did not make society what it is today but I have adapted to it.

Meerkat - I guess I would just say that if these experiences are a common occurrence for the man in question, that perhaps he should re-evaluate his selection strategy.

 

No one gender is "all" anything.

1. Men don't select, we display. Women select. I can display in front of ten women, and the one I want may not like me. Unless we are solidly in the top 5% of men in height, looks, wealth and social value, we have very little choice or "selection strategy" available.

2. Where on the green earth could you possibly extrapolate that I said that any one gender is "all" anything? Whenever a man asks a woman, or women generally to accept that some of the blame lies on their gender for gender disputes or issues, this is the inevitable type of reply. You may be male or female, I don't know, but the underlined statement is the perfect example of why men don't want to "communicate" more than they do.

1. Men don't select, we display. Women select. I can display in front of ten women, and the one I want may not like me. Unless we are solidly in the top 5% of men in height, looks, wealth and social value, we have very little choice or "selection strategy" available.

 

2. Where on the green earth could you possibly extrapolate that I said that any one gender is "all" anything? Whenever a man asks a woman, or women generally to accept that some of the blame lies on their gender for gender disputes or issues, this is the inevitable type of reply. You may be male or female, I don't know, but the underlined statement is the perfect example of why men don't want to "communicate" more than they do.

Sorry if I insulted you. I saw several references to "Women" and "nice guys" and "men" doing or not doing or thinking and not thinking as whole so felt safe saying that no one gender is "all" anything. My apologies if I misunderstood.

I'm curious. how does living a life with integrity, honesty, dependability and a willingness to sacrifice in your relationships equal a life of misery?

Because women do not value any of those things in a mate, no matter how much they like to pretend otherwise. Here's how your list of qualities translates into the real world:

integrity: being hesitant to approach women out of fear of doing something you're "not supposed to" (which means that you miss the window of opportunity for making a move and the girl goes to some other guy with less "integrity")

honesty: being unable to tell women what they want to hear (no score for you)

dependability: allowing yourself to be used and taken for granted

sacrifice in your relationships: your wife cheats on you with some jerk, then dumps your ass, takes half of what you own, and drives around town with a "was his" license plate

If you don't see how those things translate into a life of misery, I don't know what to tell you.

Because women do not value any of those things in a mate, no matter how much they like to pretend otherwise. Here's how your list of qualities translates into the real world:

 

integrity: being hesitant to approach women out of fear of doing something you're "not supposed to" (which means that you miss the window of opportunity for making a move and the girl goes to some other guy with less "integrity")

 

honesty: being unable to tell women what they want to hear (no score for you)

 

dependability: allowing yourself to be used and taken for granted

 

sacrifice in your relationships: your wife cheats on you with some jerk, then dumps your ass, takes half of what you own, and drives around town with a "was his" license plate

 

If you don't see how those things translate into a life of misery, I don't know what to tell you.

Would you consider the possibility that this is just YOUR truth and how YOU choose to perceive the world?

I guess I see many successful relationships that do display these traits. So while I certainly respect your right to your opinion, I have seen and see evidence to the contrary.

Sorry if I insulted you. I saw several references to "Women" and "nice guys" and "men" doing or not doing or thinking and not thinking as whole so felt safe saying that no one gender is "all" anything. My apologies if I misunderstood.

You didn't insult me, I was ranting in my original too long post, and have an abrasive style (job hazard). I just get tired of the stock answers anytime the topic of women accepting part of the blame for gender issues comes up. Inevitably, "you are making bad choices" or "you are overgeneralizing" are two of the pet rationalizations women make to males who have issues with women here.

You may not know it, but the "nice guy" topic has been done and done here recently, and some of us have well entrenched positions we love to rant on about. I apologize to you for any perceived tone. I'm not as emotionally involved as it seems, just florid with prose.

Would you consider the possibility that this is just YOUR truth and how YOU choose to perceive the world?

 

I guess I see many successful relationships that do display these traits. So while I certainly respect your right to your opinion, I have seen and see evidence to the contrary.

Many men do end up in these situations and they usually never see it coming.