Hard2Think - Part II : Trying to Reconcile with W

Chapter2,

You do make a valid point. I didn't really mean to say that she mut accept my word and my word only. I know that it's unrealistic to expect that - especially at this point.

I guess I do think that if she were to understand what the marriage was like for me for the past years - she would understand that she has alot of control of how this relationship moves forward. Although I've never told her this - I'll tell you that I never would have cheated had we had a normal husband/wife relationship. It took me 13 years including lots of neglect and verbal abuse for me to get to this point.

But at the same time, I think some posters here are right. She may never change and she has no real impetus to do so. Can I live with that? That's what I'm stuggling with right now .. and I'm leaning towards a no.

You know what I would do?

I would institute a trial separation. No, this isn't something to be taken lightly, but perhaps with some time apart, you can rekindle the love that you once had long, long ago. Perhaps you will find that you cannot live without each other and together you are willing to work on and fix the problems in the marriage. Perhaps this will be the best thing you can do for the marriage.

Or perhaps not.

But, either way, you will get something moving on this stalemate.

What do ya think?

I think you're on to something, maybe ..

You know what I would do?

 

I would institute a trial separation. No, this isn't something to be taken lightly, but perhaps with some time apart, you can rekindle the love that you once had long, long ago. Perhaps you will find that you cannot live without each other and together you are willing to work on and fix the problems in the marriage. Perhaps this will be the best thing you can do for the marriage.

 

Or perhaps not.

 

But, either way, you will get something moving on this stalemate.

 

What do ya think?

I KNEW I liked you....

Having said that....let me reiterate. It isn't something to be taken lightly. But how can she miss you if you never go away?

Just some food for thought...

FIC,

 

You say that divorce is somehow honorable?

It is more "honest" and yes honorable than cheating. You keep making excuses for why cheating had to be... a divorce would hurt the kids because of making them visit. Doesn't have to. You don't visit. You disappear. Like you died in a plane crash... they'll get on without you. Amazing huh... you're not indispensible. As to your "provider role" courts will take care of that. Believe me...

The truth is, divorce would have been the best option for me.

But your suggestion to "just get a divorce" is extremely naive.

There is about zero hope for your marriage. You strike me as an arrogant controlling S.O.B. I say that because you write his whole thing as if some how the decision to D or not is soley your decision. Your wife has no say and couldn't possibly D you. Naw... I mean I can understand your wife being cold to you just from the way you post. You decide what's best for her and the kids. You decide cheating is the way to keep them from being hurt. Man... that's screwy. Like most cheaters it is all about you. You don't really care about your kids or your wife. And I'd pitty anyone else that got involved with you. Sorry man, that's just how I read it from here.

And yes, I know your wife was terrible to you for 13 years. So why did you let her get away with that crap for 13 years? Well maybe you're not so controlling after all.

No more A's, and I could have been involved in a real relationship instead of one with a mistress.

See what I mean? She wasn't a woman you loved. She was just a mistress to be used - to make you feel better no less. It couldn't have been a "real" relationship. I'm wondering if you'd know a real relationship if it bit you in the ass?

But good luck though, cause I think you'll need it.

And that's just how I view you from a very limited reading of your posts, so maybe I'm all wrong about you.

...

....But how can she miss you if you never go away?

Yeah, and I suggested you get out of Dodge a while back too... so your wife could think without your influence around.

She'll either decide she'll want you, or she'll decide she doesn't. Either way you end the stalemate rather than drag this thing out.

FIC: Do you even have an empathetic bone in your body? You beat up on him (H2T) and beat up on him...You are not being helpful you are being hurtful...

Thanks, GreenEyedLady -

FIC doesn't bother me at all. I know where he's coming from. He was getting little or no affection nor sex at home, he discussed it with his wife and much to her credit - she changed her ways and worked on getting the marriage better. I think he's got a great wife and he's very fortunate it all worked out. I'm happy for him.

Unfortunately, he's taken this as a sign that he's a genius with higher morals I and some others here. He wastes no keystrokes trying to lord this over us. Of course, he'd be singing maybe a completely different tune if his wife had reacted like mine. I know he thinks he would have done the "honorable thing" and gotten a divorce, or so he says. But I know first hand that we all tend to react differently than we thought when anticipated events arise. And he knows nothing about my situation as it compares to his - but I don't think that matters much to him.

FIC: Do you even have an empathetic bone in your body? You beat up on him (H2T) and beat up on him...You are not being helpful you are being hurtful...

You must not have kids. Or at least I hope you don't - for their sakes .

It is more "honest" and yes honorable than cheating. You keep making excuses for why cheating had to be... a divorce would hurt the kids because of making them visit. Doesn't have to. You don't visit. You disappear. Like you died in a plane crash... they'll get on without you. Amazing huh... you're not indispensible. As to your "provider role" courts will take care of that. Believe me...

 

FIC: Do you even have an empathetic bone in your body? You beat up on him (H2T) and beat up on him...You are not being helpful you are being hurtful...

Empathy for what? He's a cheater? He is basically a dishonest person. It's part of his character. What's to help someone like that?

The person he hurt was his wife. She may have hurt him but his way of dealing with it was wrong.

You must not have kids. Or at least I hope you don't - for their sakes .

I've got three great kids, that I taught to be honest people. Part of that message was I didn't cheat on their mother, or rob banks, or steal from my employer, or ... .

What lesson have you taught your kids H2T? To solve problems it's OK to cheat? If one is unhappy it's OK to do what ever you want regardless of the impact on others?

Like I said, the only way I see to solve your problems is for you to leave, so your wife can decide if she wants you back or not. If she does then she has to realize that she has to change if she wants to make you happy. If she's not interested in changing to make you happy then you don't want to save the marrige, do you? Or are you now willing to live in a loveless marriage?

Unfortunately, he's taken this as a sign that he's a genius with higher morals I and some others here. He wastes no keystrokes trying to lord this over us. Of course, he'd be singing maybe a completely different tune if his wife had reacted like mine. I know he thinks he would have done the "honorable thing" and gotten a divorce, or so he says. But I know first hand that we all tend to react differently than we thought when anticipated events arise. And he knows nothing about my situation as it compares to his - but I don't think that matters much to him.

Exactly.

I guess no matter how many times you say that what you did was wrong and you're sorry people just don't understand that??

H- have you investigated any facts about narcassism?? And whether your wife may be one? Read up on it a bit and let me know what you think.

 

Originally Posted by Hard2Think View Post

Unfortunately, he's taken this as a sign that he's a genius with higher morals I and some others here. ... I know he thinks he would have done the "honorable thing" and gotten a divorce, or so he says. ..... And he knows nothing about my situation as it compares to his - but I don't think that matters much to him.

Exactly.

 

I guess no matter how many times you say that what you did was wrong and you're sorry people just don't understand that??

 

It's nice he's sorry. Most cheaters are when they get caught. But that doesn't undo the damage. Some people apparently think they can just say "sorry... let's move on" and that fixes it. And its not me that has to "understand" or "forgive" but his wife.

And yes, I have higher morals that H2T because I haven't cheated on my wife. And that's the thing that bothers me here and why I think their marriage is doomed to fail. H2T comes off as extremely arrogant to me and not one bit remorseful for his actions that got him where he is. That's just the impression I get from the way he words his posts. He still is trying to make his cheating "acceptable" or "justifiable" and blame his wife for it. And she's not going to buy that. Neither would I. He wants his wife to "fix the things she did wrong" so they can get over his affair. She's got to do her share etc. Well sorry that might have been the case before the affair but I doubt she's going to see this as her fault and she has to meet her H half way.

She's in a bind that he created. She's faced with living with this guy who betrayed her and is "sorry", but wants her to admit her "mistakes" as some sort of moral equivalency - which it's not - or divorce and lose house, kids, etc.

I still think the best, perhaps only way, to change her attitude toward him is for him to leave - live some place else and stop trying to control her. She will either decide she wants him back or she'll decide she doesn't want him back. It has to be her choice, not his.

Anyway, good luck. I hope you work it out. I just don't see it happening.

FiC, you certainly have yourself up on a pretttty high pedestal there buddy. But you better be careful....the old saying about the harder they fall. I'm glad you feel your morals are so much better than most of us here & that you have a place to come & point that out to us. But until you walk a mile in someone elses shoes maybe you should think more & type less. If what i did taught me anything (which according to you it couldn't possibly have taught me to never cheat again) it has taught me not to be so judgemental of people & what they do. If I could do this then anyone is capable. And you know what else. Maybe you haven't cheated on your wife & maybe you never will, but i doubt you can honestly say there is nothing in your life that you have ever done that you are ashamed of or that if given the chance to do over you wouldn't have done it or wouldn't have handled it differently.

H2T, I believe you are at least trying. To me, taking off as soon as you were busted would have totally been the cowards way out. Anyone that could suggest that to you is not thinking any clearer than you were when you had the affair. You are trying to save your marriage & keep your family together. You are NOT perfect, believe it or not, no one is. Neither is your wife. I do think there is a time when couples have to face that it may not work. I'm not sure if yours is there or not, & i hope not but i do realize that time may come for me as well.

just thought i would jump in here as this seemed like an interesting thread about morality and values and what we believe we would never do and what we would do in tricky situations....

and before i add something, i just wanted to mention something that i found interesting/curious while i was reading these posts - and it started me a thinking about something - something being, in many cases people make judgements on and place prioritization on certain 'wrong or immoral acts', such as cheating, over others.

now why is that? why is one 'act' more important than the other? isn't that missing the real issue? because, in its simplicity, isn't the root behind every immoral act, basically about the betrayal of trust? and the placement of importance on the 'act' instead of the 'root cause' just human nature?

i will try and explain - i think when we get hurt by someone, or are a third party looking at what someone has 'done' to another we tend to skip [not neglect] over, what is the root [trust] and move directly to the act.

it seems that almost every post i have read where someone talks about an incident where cheating is involved, they talk about how so and so had sex with so and so...that is so bad...a judgement on their character, their entire life, is based on one act.

and i think part of this reason is because that's how are brain's process information - people first go thru anger, and then examine what is really the core - so isn't it just anger that directs our thoughts towards something concrete [a physical act] because its easier to grasp and express and release that emotion [which is needed in order to think rationally again] and then we can move on to the issue of trust because in reality 'trust' is an abstract...you can't touch it, buy it, screw it...so, being able to 'see' what lies behind the reason of betrayal is an actual process....that we often forget about.

sorry, i rambled...fer a bit....basically, i needed to set up how i am making this point...

so if you can think of betrayal and the way we process information [events] in that way, if you can think that any betrayal at all is really all the same [trust], and most people realize that after months of stupid agony, why do we still then, after realizing that, continue to prioritize one 'act' over another and why do we 'allow' situations to be accountable and play a role in a betrayal but not for others? - and cheating is the best example because almost everyone states - you cheated that that's all there is to it. whatever was associated with the decision to do so is immediately invalid [is that fair] yet in other cases, we allow, association. look at how nasty people describe cheaters in here compared to someone that betrayed trust in a different manner? is it bilbical? the old adam and eve crap? are we as humans move wounded by acts of the flesh that it pushes aside wounds that are really far greater [trust]?

let me describe a situation and see who you feel bad about in this little makebelieve drama: lets say two people are truly in love, life starts to wear them down and things start to pull them apart. lets say the woman in the relationship is working really hard to keeping everything together and in doing so falls into a depression, and because she does so, feels like she has let everyone down, and starts being angry and abusive and self-punishes herself by using drugs, and that in turn makes her start to isolate herself and in her numb state starts going to chat rooms and chatting with men who are nothing more than text on a screen...

now say her husband, who has seen all this and has tried hard to break thru but reaches a point where he thinks its hopeless, and in his desparation turns to another woman, has an affair....

which one of these two people gets raked over the coals? which one of these two people is considered trash? which one is told that they had a choice and which one is told that situational events played a role and is looked upon as not as bad as the other? and, most importantly, why are either of them not viewed as people with integrity, two people that stumbled and fell - just like everyone else sometimes does in life?

why does a decision during a moment in one's lifetime negate the rest of that person's life and all the good qualities they possess? why do we punish and kick those when they are down, and reward those who don't need the helping hand?

basically, for me i couldn't give a crap about whether someone else thought i was swallowing my pride, or that it appeared to them that taking back a druggie or a sex fiend in my life, made me look weak to them - that is just there impression and has nothing to do with me...i also, couldn't care else if someone mocked or devalued me simply because I MAKE UP MY OWN MIND because them doing that is their problem..not mine. i am not a fan of negative campaigning and ain't about to start. i take and listen to advice that is based at least in part with logic not emotional baggage and in the end, its just me that lives with any decision i make and i don't ask anyone to make the same decision simply because i have...i guess i posted this long rant n roll simply because earlier i posted a 'deadline' thang and i did so because what i am, what i am capable of doing - has nothing to do with whether or not the person replies or not...either result is totally kewl with me...when i was a kid i used to hide and worry what others would think about me...and when you think about it...that's nuts...what they think about me is irrelavent to what decisions i make in my life or how i want to live it. you are either supportive and positive or a heckler in the cheap seats...and i only have room at at the inn for one of those two...guess which one i pick?

any thoughts on this loooooooooooooooooooong rambling brain fart of mine?

It's nice he's sorry. Most cheaters are when they get caught. But that doesn't undo the damage. Some people apparently think they can just say "sorry... let's move on" and that fixes it. And its not me that has to "understand" or "forgive" but his wife.

 

And yes, I have higher morals that H2T because I haven't cheated on my wife. And that's the thing that bothers me here and why I think their marriage is doomed to fail. H2T comes off as extremely arrogant to me and not one bit remorseful for his actions that got him where he is. That's just the impression I get from the way he words his posts. He still is trying to make his cheating "acceptable" or "justifiable" and blame his wife for it. And she's not going to buy that. Neither would I. He wants his wife to "fix the things she did wrong" so they can get over his affair. She's got to do her share etc. Well sorry that might have been the case before the affair but I doubt she's going to see this as her fault and she has to meet her H half way.

 

She's in a bind that he created. She's faced with living with this guy who betrayed her and is "sorry", but wants her to admit her "mistakes" as some sort of moral equivalency - which it's not - or divorce and lose house, kids, etc.

 

I still think the best, perhaps only way, to change her attitude toward him is for him to leave - live some place else and stop trying to control her. She will either decide she wants him back or she'll decide she doesn't want him back. It has to be her choice, not his.

 

Anyway, good luck. I hope you work it out. I just don't see it happening.

FIC,

I don't agree with everything you said, but most of it. I don't think his W needs to own anything right now, and that he is just trying to make her a co-conspirator in his mess. He complicated things, not her. Now he is just trying to make it seem like she is the one that ruined the M and caused the D. Not so. But if it helps him sleep better at night. Whatever.

I don't think you are being morally superior either. Take note that the only ones saying that are the admitted cheaters. Only the cheaters see moral grandstanding where non-cheaters simply see you telling it the way it is.

I feel sorry for H2T's W. She is unaware of all the bad advice that her H is listening to. He only takes away from this place what he wants to. What fits into what he has already decided to be the case. Its sad. I don't buy for one minute that he only says negative stuff here and is self-effacing towards her. I bet he is constantly resentful and she picks up on it.

Judging by how quick he dropped his OW, I don't think H2T knows what love really is. I don't blame his W for not committing to R with him. I don't blame her for not accepting some of the blame for his A. Its not hers to accept. I hope that they can come to some sort of decision regarding their M, though.

Oh, wake up already!

Women pretend to enjoy sex (hell, they actually might, but they can happily live without it) until they have a man legally shackled to them.

Then, it becomes a "favor" they "grant" the man.

Then, it becomes a chore.

Then, it ends.

All puffery about "alphas" aside, you will find this in a majority of marriages.

I've tried everything.

I even tried marriage counseling 8 times at $140 an hour. I checked with the OB/GYN. I bought her books. I bought ME books. I took over cooking. I do the cleaning when I can. I give her all Saturday off, while I watch the kids. I've paid for expensive vacations. I've gone in, out, and back in to shape. Wine, roses, candles...

But she knows she has me by the short hairs. I'm not gonna divorce and have my children turn into promisuous Gen-Y-esque male-attention-seeking cumwhores.

So I wait.

As a woman I like my friends have said. If he makes love really good you can't hardly keep your legs closed. When men complain that they don't get enough sex from their wives and girlfriends trust me - it's because the sex you provide isn't that great. We need it just like you do but if we are not turned on it's hard for us to want to get into it. Do you ever wonder why some guys don't have to spend a dime and are constantly getting laid? It's because of their skills in bed.

Scrivdog, not all women are that way.

I am sorry that you are married to a woman like that.

I AM divorced and my daughters are beautiful, kind, generous, dignified adults. They are nowhere near being promiscuous, male-attention-seeking-cumwhores. On the contrary. They respect themselves and the men who date them respect them in return.

Perhaps your views on women are part of the reason that your wife feels as she does.

I've been keeping a tab on H2T and his two part saga has turned into a feeding frenzy!

If this were to be tried in the divorce court, everything H2T has said is NOTHING but "heresay", a "he said, she said". Every advice and feedback he's has solicitated is based on his perception.

Biggest problem with marriages? Men and women look at the same situation completely different, if not, most often opposite. So, this begs the question, what is his wife's version? Chances are as in "real life", the TRUTH is somewhere in the middle. But we're only getting YOUR version of the story which comes across somewhat biased against her.

So, H2T, have you ever tried encourage your wife to post here or on some similar forum?

If I could do this then anyone is capable. And you know what else. Maybe you haven't cheated on your wife & maybe you never will, but i doubt you can honestly say there is nothing in your life that you have ever done that you are ashamed of or that if given the chance to do over you wouldn't have done it or wouldn't have handled it differently.

Yeah, it's kinda funny. When someone else does something wrong judgmental people want to point out their one mistake and make that person the most horrible person that's ever lived.

Now, let them do something bad and they immediately want forgiveness and say "But I said I was sorry"

It's only harsh judgement when it's directed at someone else.

. If he makes love really good you can't hardly keep your legs closed.

:lmao: :lmao:

I guess there is a little truth to this, while inflammatory. Because dang it if I can be mad at my H when it comes down to having sex. It's like all that goes out the window as soon as he starts to initate sex.

Originally Posted by InaPanic View Post

If I could do this then anyone is capable. And you know what else. Maybe you haven't cheated on your wife & maybe you never will, but i doubt you can honestly say there is nothing in your life that you have ever done that you are ashamed of or that if given the chance to do over you wouldn't have done it or wouldn't have handled it differently.

When he had the chance to do it over again, he did the exact same thing - had another A.

Yeah, it's kinda funny. When someone else does something wrong judgmental people want to point out their one mistake and make that person the most horrible person that's ever lived.

 

Now, let them do something bad and they immediately want forgiveness and say "But I said I was sorry"

 

It's only harsh judgement when it's directed at someone else.

A mistake is something you do once or twice, not for a year or repeatedly. A mistake is not something that will have another woman showing up at someone's house with a year worth of e-mail in tow. The A was a choice and that is the way most of the non-cheaters see it.

I'm sure that I will be called one of those judgemental people (and maybe I am), but I wanted to point this out.

Except that when cheaters cheat and do the nasty deed the first time, they try to convince themselves they just made a mistake.

But, ooooopss!....they do it again, and again, and again. Before you know it, they've been making the same dang mistake for 2 years. Some cheaters even do it longer! The mistake cheaters did two years ago, is no longer a mistake 2 years later! You can't say "I'm, sorry" for two years for the same dang mistake banging the same person who is NOT your wife or husband!

For H2T, he's lucky that his OW just showed up at his door and not with a gun!

Anyone seen "Fatal Attraction?" I don't know about you all, but the possibility of having an affair turn deadly is pretty real.

But isn't it a wonder how we're more afraid of the IRS if we don't pay taxes than the idea of losing everything, your spouse, children, finances, house, and reputation because of infidelity, not to mention a life sentence from STD?

A mistake is something you do once or twice, not for a year or repeatedly. A mistake is not something that will have another woman showing up at someone's house with a year worth of e-mail in tow. The A was a choice and that is the way most of the non-cheaters see it.

 

I'm not saying the A wasn't a choice. It was, a bad one. I also agree with you that a mistake is something you do once or twice- that was certainly my experience in my A.

But unless you have experienced what he has experienced you can't understand what it does to you, emotionally and mentally. Was he wrong, yes he was. I've said that a million times. Yet at the same time his wife hasn't treated him well or with any kind of care either. They have both mistreated each other and just because his involved sex it makes him the worse offender?? I just don't believe that. They are both at fault here.