How many actual OW?

Hello yesmaybe.

I'm not against dating other people while I'm seeing MM. I've been on a few dates over the past 2 years, especially during the first year of the EMA (when it was still online) and during our 'not quite NC' period. I haven't really seen anything I like the look of But then, I am quite fussy in my standards and was single for 2 years before I met MM online.

Sound familiar? I am thinking like an MM! I am using MM as my "stable" relationship, and then test driving the SG to see if he will be better.

This is more or less 'cake-eating', though not exactly as presumably you want to end up with ONE man rather than two. I don't see that there's much wrong with dating two people at once... as long as they're both aware of it. Because I can't see what is the point of a R if there are lies and deception.

I think some of the things said about 'men can have multiple Rs but women can't'.. is bunkum. You can find MW having affairs on this board.

And I think it's really untrue to claim that men don't care if you use them for sex and lie to them and use them as test-out material. Men DO have feelings! I hope you're at least being honest with SG so that he knows you're seeing someone else and can make a choice about whether or not to get emotionally involved with you.

Jessie61 - you are not the fraud. MM is the fraud.

 

I also love my MM. This guy I'm dating right now, I like him but I infinitely prefer MM. Of course my mind is still on MM, not the Single Guy. But, then again, not having all my chips on MM is great. So, yes, I am using SG. But I don't think men mind!

 

As I mentioned, about a month ago, I deliberately planned and executed a one-night stand. And from then on, started dating other men. It made me sick to my stomach to do it at first, but I knew it had to be done.

 

Great Lessons learned from One-Night-Stand (I have never seen him again):

1. I had been single for 2 years when MM came in my life. Maybe MM is convenient because he provides excitement and distraction. But, there are single guys who provide that, too.

2. MM is not the last man who can give me good sex

3. MM is interesting and I love him...but there are other men who are interesting too. Hmm...maybe I should get to know them as well?

 

When I then started to date for real, I went through a lot of frogs before kissing a (maybe) prince! And I still do force myself to get excited when with my SG.

 

Women get emotionally attached to one man at a time. I think it's deeply instinctual, and of, reinforced by culture. I know I am 100% like that. Men, on the other hand, can be attached (sexually and/or emotionally) to multiple women at a time.

 

I decided, if I'm going to continue this A, I need to reduce as much harm as possible. MM has his wife and me. And now, I have MM and SG. There is some level of power I have regained.

 

Yesterday, I went out with SG for a 4 hour dinner date. 30 minutes later, he text me "Thanks for tonight. I wish we had spent more time together, though. Good night!"

 

Of course when I went home, I called MM for our daily convo. But, even now, I find myself thinking, "well, I will date SG. Maybe he'll be better than MM. And then I can move over to SG onxe that relationship is solid, and things will be great."

 

Sound familiar? I am thinking like an MM! I am using MM as my "stable" relationship, and then test driving the SG to see if he will be better.

 

Point is, it's complicated and I wish it was just me and MM. But I decided that, if I'm going to put myself in harm's way by being in an A, I should try to reduce the bad effects as much as possible.

Yesmaybe,

Your post is interesting.

Yes, you're right I am not the fraud, but I felt like it vis-a-vis SG being on a date under false pretences. MM is the fraud unless and until he does what he says he's going to do, namely leave his wife. It is in fact worst than that; I was invited out for dinner by someone who doesn't know about MM, and MM almost lost his reason with jealousy when he found out! I didn't go in the end.... MM is using the argument that how could he consider leaving his W for someone who is seeing someone else, and I am embarrassed to say that it has worked to some extent (even though I would never admit that to HIM!!!!) Aren't I the big idiot????

Like yourself I was single for 3 happy years before MM and I had no intention of actively looking for someone. Now I compare everyone to MM and nobody gets even close. I know that I am strictly speaking entitled to do anything that I want while he is still at home with his W, but I just can't. If I can't have MM in the end, then I need to get over him completely and THEN I might be able to look elsewhere. But I would hate to have to convince myself of someone; shouldn't it come naturally, like something you are just drawn to? I don't know. Like I said, I am a big idiot sometimes!

My friends are using exactly the same arguments that you are. I just feel that a relationship is so complicated even when 2 single people are involved, let alone one married/one single or (as they suggest) one married/two single.... I can only deal with one boyfriend at a time!

This should probably be a thread on its own..?

Hello yesmaybe.

 

I'm not against dating other people while I'm seeing MM. I've been on a few dates over the past 2 years, especially during the first year of the EMA (when it was still online) and during our 'not quite NC' period. I haven't really seen anything I like the look of But then, I am quite fussy in my standards and was single for 2 years before I met MM online.

 

 

 

This is more or less 'cake-eating', though not exactly as presumably you want to end up with ONE man rather than two. I don't see that there's much wrong with dating two people at once... as long as they're both aware of it. Because I can't see what is the point of a R if there are lies and deception.

 

I think some of the things said about 'men can have multiple Rs but women can't'.. is bunkum. You can find MW having affairs on this board.

 

And I think it's really untrue to claim that men don't care if you use them for sex and lie to them and use them as test-out material. Men DO have feelings! I hope you're at least being honest with SG so that he knows you're seeing someone else and can make a choice about whether or not to get emotionally involved with you.

Sami,

As always I end up nodding in agreement with a lot of what you are saying..!

I'm not against an OW/OM dating "on the side" because for as long as MM/MW is still with the spouse, then all bets are off etc and MM/MW is certainly not in a position to complain! I also thinks it is a load of rubbish that women can't have more than one R. And of course men have feelings too!!!

But as I said in my previous post, I actually enjoy being genuinely single, I don't feel that I n-e-e-d a man in my life, and the only way that I will even consider it is when the man is actually worth it. (Has MM been worth it? Hmmmm......) So trying to convince myself...? No, thanks. I know that it kind of make logical sense to try out the water because you might discover that you actually quite like it, but still.... no thanks!

Like I said, a big idiot!!!!

If I can't have MM in the end, then I need to get over him completely and THEN I might be able to look elsewhere. But I would hate to have to convince myself of someone; shouldn't it come naturally, like something you are just drawn to? I don't know. Like I said, I am a big idiot sometimes!

 

That's not idiotic at all. That's just good sense. Deliberately using a third person as some kind of crutch isn't fair on anyone and makes for bad relationship decisions, I think.

But. We're all doing what we can, I suppose.

I actually enjoy being genuinely single, I don't feel that I n-e-e-d a man in my life, and the only way that I will even consider it is when the man is actually worth it. (Has MM been worth it? Hmmmm......) So trying to convince myself...? No, thanks.

Well exactly. I hear so much about 'you could be dating A single guy'... well yes, I could be. But you know, I could just as easily be single and happy. No, that's not what I want ultimately ~ I want a relationship. But I choose being single over 'any old relationship for the sake of it' any day.

I just thought I'd update this thread, since I've been posting about it on other threads.

----

I told MM earlier in the year that I couldn't do another Christmas... he said he understood, and he thought about it, but after a while he said he couldn't possibly leave this year unless things got bad at home that he thought it was definitely affecting the children. To me 'not this year' means 'sometime never', and I think it was that that sent me on a very bad downward spiral that ended up with me bursting into tears in the GP's surgery. GP sent me to see a psych nurse for depression.

Well it's been about a month now since I went to see the psych nurse and after hearing what he had to say about it being my R which was the root of all my problems (not like I didn't already KNOW that!). I then told MM that it's 'now or never' as I'm not waiting 'any longer' because I have my health to think about. So... my 'time limit' had suddenly gone from 'this year' to... NOW! (as far as reasonably possible)

So, as far as he's concerned I will wait to see if he tells her 'in the next few weeks' before ending it. But in all honesty, if he doesn't manage to sort it out this Thursday (when his W has a half-day from work and he can get time off) then he knows that I'm going to be really concerned that he's never going to do it. How I'll react then... I just don't know. Partly it depends on WHY exactly it couldn't happen Thursday. But the way I'm feeling it's as likely that I'll just SNAP and tell him to shove it as I'll back off for a bit and 'give him space' for a while longer. I don't know what's best... I don't have a plan. I'm just playing it by ear.

It's a juggling act between being understanding of the momentous thing he's facing, and protecting myself from his possibly endless procrastination.

I know... being understanding IS giving him more time. Like he hasn't already had enough time. Seems it's never enough.

But... MM would just think I'd gone crazy if I just suddenly go on a date after a year of nothing of the sort! Just now..? Just to make him jealous..? He'd look on it as the cheap trick it would seem.

Well, I just got off the phone to him... he was hedging on Thursday, what with his new job and extra work load. I knew he would do that. I know what's coming next too, because he has another of his yearly check-ups and he'll have to wait for that.

Well, I told him that it has to be this week or I won't have any faith in him leaving. He said yes... he knows that he's stalling. He told me again... it's because he can't imagine it will be BEST for the children if he leaves. I said to him well... how could you possibly ever get into a frame of mind where you know it's for the best for them if you leave? He's hoping for something that's not going to happen.

Left the conversation saying it has to be this week. I guess I made a deadline... not that I wanted to.

To OldEurope,

I really do have it in mind what you said... about your not knowing any situations like this that had a good ending unless some Ultimatum was given.

I'm just SO WEAK

I know... being understanding IS giving him more time. Like he hasn't already had enough time. Seems it's never enough.

 

But... MM would just think I'd gone crazy if I just suddenly go on a date after a year of nothing of the sort! Just now..? Just to make him jealous..? He'd look on it as the cheap trick it would seem.

 

Well, I just got off the phone to him... he was hedging on Thursday, what with his new job and extra work load. I knew he would do that. I know what's coming next too, because he has another of his yearly check-ups and he'll have to wait for that.

 

Well, I told him that it has to be this week or I won't have any faith in him leaving. He said yes... he knows that he's stalling. He told me again... it's because he can't imagine it will be BEST for the children if he leaves. I said to him well... how could you possibly ever get into a frame of mind where you know it's for the best for them if you leave? He's hoping for something that's not going to happen.

 

Left the conversation saying it has to be this week. I guess I made a deadline... not that I wanted to.

Sami - I'm moving this message over to your thread as you did. Seemed the right thing to do (lol)

Oh Sami. Hang in there. Of course you don't want to make a deadline. Its very scary. But that's what it usually takes to end this one way or the other and either move on with him or without. Only you know how much of this you can take.

You know what would happen with me? When my MM said he was going to do it, it was usually on a certain day in a few days. As the time got nearer, he would be tense, irritable, worry himself sick. Then either he would do it (with one toe in the water) and allow all the threats and backlash from his W scare him into staying a little longer, or he would not do it because something came up, then he was in a relieved state, promising some other time and he would act normal, until the next time he worked himself into a frenzy. I don't know that your MM has come to grips with this. It doesn't really sound like it. But I'll hope for the best for you.

I was just composing an email to MM to send later tonight IF our conversation this afternoon goes the way I think it might ~ like... me saying this is our last conversation, or deciding it is. The reason for that being that I think that it's not right of me to force his hand like this. It IS something huge he's facing... and yes, he might be stalling, but who wouldn't..? He does really, genuinely care that what he might be about to do might (might? Will!) really hurt his children.

Anyway... I am just thinking that there's some stuff we haven't talked about... like his guilt at always having worked away, his feelings that he's never been there for them, the way this has meant that his W has taken control of the decisions where the children are concerned so much so that he isn't even told (never asks) about what their activities are.

Giving an example... he was upset the other week because he found out that his boy (11) was staying home alone all morning and he hadn't even been told. He doesn't think 11 is an OK age to be alone at home... but more than that... he wasn't consulted about it, and this is something that's always happening. So, he got angry about it. Then.. the next week, MM was under the impression that his boy was staying home with a friend during the day while W and her friend and their daughters went out to IKEA. So... MM came home in the evening and said to son... did you have a good day at home with your friend today? Son said, 'I went to IKEA with Mum'. MM said... ooook. Then later thought... hmm... there's not enough seats in the car for that, and asked W... did you take son to IKEA..? And she said, no... I asked him to lie to you about it because I knew you'd be angry.

I don't know if that is the kind of thing that usually happens in families. But I know that MM already thinks he has no real input in their lives while he's living there... and he's scared that he'll be marginalised, forgotten, or blamed or not loved if he moves out.

Is he worrying for nothing? I've never been a parent. I have no idea.

that's what it usually takes to end this one way or the other and either move on with him or without. Only you know how much of this you can take.

You know what..? I could take a WHOLE lot more of this, if ONLY I knew that it would all be OK in the end.

I don't want to be out 'one way or the other'. I want the same thing he does... for us to be together, without having hurt his children in the process.

I know he's not lying about how he feels, and what he wants. I know he's not lying about his worries about his children. I KNOW he's not a cake-eater or someone who wants an affair. I know he's not deliberately hurting me.

Sometimes I think all my angst and unhappiness stems from reading these boards, and hearing about how MM are the scum of the Earth. And a whole lot of them are total users. I DON'T want to be the OW. I want him to be honest with his W about how he no longer loves her, and just have some faith in the idea that he won't completely mess up his children forever if he does what he WANTS to do.

But... he's no more selfish than I am. We both want to do 'what's right'. But ... what IS right?

Sami, I really feel for you.

About a month ago, I realized that the only person I can control is myself. I can cry and complain to MM all I want, but unless he wants to change...he won't.

I'm guessing that your depressive self is not the person he fell in love with. And no doubt that your depression is scaring him, too - it's a vivious cycle. Men can only handle so much emotional pressure before they run away.

If you want him to leave his wife, you need to become happy again FOR YOU. This is the person he fell in love with. You need to be the best you again.

Also, you need to start cutting him out of your life. I know it's hard and you don't feel like it...but, if you want him to hurry up, this is the only method I can think of that will work. And if you truly want him to get movin', you gotta force yourself to start living a happy, single/dating single men, life.

Men love confident, independent, busy women. Well, women love confident, independent, busy men too. Don't let him walk all over you - start NC, get a fabulous haircut and shoes, start taking classes at a local college, find a new hobby, etc. etc.. Your MM will be intrigued and fascinated by you.

As for his kids...do some online research, buy him some books...give him some well-balanced info (including the negative) about divorce and children. Look on this website for threads specifically about this.

Ok, I have babbling way too much! Good luck.

 

I DON'T want to be the OW. I want him to be honest with his W about how he no longer loves her, and just have some faith in the idea that he won't completely mess up his children forever if he does what he WANTS to do.

Sami, you have your answer right there. You have GOT to set parameters to this relationship or it will just spin (and spin and spin) in place. I quote you again:

1) You do not want to be the OW --and you do NOT have to be!

2) You want him to tell his wife the truth, and that he no longer loves her--then require him to do so before you proceed with any more physical contact/meetings between you

3) You want him to have faith in the idea that his children will not be screwed up in the end--this you know he has to realize for himself; you cannot "teach" him any more than what arguments on this topic I assume you have already presented to him

Please step back, look at your posts, see the state that you are in. You know it is time to simply cut off your contact with him or at the very most reduce to polite, encouraging, but distant answers-to-HIS-calls (no calling from you). There is no magic wand, no special, magic pixie dust, no holding your breath counting to ten wishing that "suddenly" makes them decide. He has to panic like hell at the thought and THE REALITY of your absence from his life for him to start making major moves. Humans are true creatures of habit, people say they like change, most really do not. You have to engage in a bit of 'psychological warfare' at this point. You just do

 

I'm just SO WEAK

No, you're NOT! You're much tougher that you think when you have to!!!!

Sami

remember my posts in my thread ,where MM was sounding sincere because I was making no demands and he kept bringing it?..well thursday we had a talk and I got him to say it again he will probably never leave,he says even though that is what he wants he'd hurt to many people in the process.

which of coarse you know by what I've written I've kinda known that all along. but heres the kick in the face I got from him..I told him we have to stop the affaiar for both of us..for one we will get caught eventually and all these people he's afraid of hurting will be crushed and the people in my life as well.

and I told him also for me I can not have the pain of this affair going on at the same time I'm facing a divorce,it's just to much for me to bear..and Sami he literally tried to talk me into staying married so the affair can continue! I was stunned! all the while he was telling me he was in love with me...if he really loved me why would he want me to stay in a unhappy marriage? it was totally selfish and a side of my MM I wish I never seen.

the thing is we do know our MM's love us..I'm certian yours does as well as mine..I know he does...but do they love us enough? I asked myself after this convo with him...lets say a year from now he leaves his W and I'm single, you know after this I don't think I want him cause he didn't love me enough to stand by me..he's gonna let me face this divorce and pain alone. I will have a bitterness towards him that I'm sure I'll never shake off regaurdless of what happens now.

I want someone who can share this power of love on the same playing field ,i don't want another relationship where my love isn't reciprocated 100%...been there,done that, bought a tee-shirt.

I say take you experience and learn from it, I know I want someone like my MM but better.so I can thank him and move on..(I hope)

Sami

I want someone who can share this power of love on the same playing field ,i don't want another relationship where my love isn't reciprocated 100%...been there,done that, bought a tee-shirt.

 

I say take you experience and learn from it, I know I want someone like my MM but better.so I can thank him and move on..(I hope)

LNF, you've got it right.

Sami, I feel for you. I wish he would make a decision either way. I think that as long as you hold on hope of what you want him to do, you will continue on this state of flux.

Remember, like all the others have said, you cannot control what others do with their life, but you certainly has the power in you to control what you do with yours. I think you have stated clearly what you want, but he's not delivering. Maybe its time for you not to be so flexible?

Sami

 

remember my posts in my thread ,where MM was sounding sincere because I was making no demands and he kept bringing it?..well thursday we had a talk and I got him to say it again he will probably never leave,he says even though that is what he wants he'd hurt to many people in the process.

 

which of coarse you know by what I've written I've kinda known that all along. but heres the kick in the face I got from him..I told him we have to stop the affaiar for both of us..for one we will get caught eventually and all these people he's afraid of hurting will be crushed and the people in my life as well.

 

and I told him also for me I can not have the pain of this affair going on at the same time I'm facing a divorce,it's just to much for me to bear..and Sami he literally tried to talk me into staying married so the affair can continue! I was stunned! all the while he was telling me he was in love with me...if he really loved me why would he want me to stay in a unhappy marriage? it was totally selfish and a side of my MM I wish I never seen.

 

the thing is we do know our MM's love us..I'm certian yours does as well as mine..I know he does...but do they love us enough? I asked myself after this convo with him...lets say a year from now he leaves his W and I'm single, you know after this I don't think I want him cause he didn't love me enough to stand by me..he's gonna let me face this divorce and pain alone. I will have a bitterness towards him that I'm sure I'll never shake off regaurdless of what happens now.

 

I want someone who can share this power of love on the same playing field ,i don't want another relationship where my love isn't reciprocated 100%...been there,done that, bought a tee-shirt.

 

I say take you experience and learn from it, I know I want someone like my MM but better.so I can thank him and move on..(I hope)

Omigosh, LNF!

1. He doesn't want you available for someone else;

2. He won't feel guilty for not leaving his own W.

3. He'll feel more pressure to leave her if he thinks you were going to ultimately be out there waiting or pushing or whatever.

He's definitely not thinking about you, is he? Ugh. I'm so sorry for your pain - once again.

 

Anyway... I am just thinking that there's some stuff we haven't talked about... like his guilt at always having worked away, his feelings that he's never been there for them, the way this has meant that his W has taken control of the decisions where the children are concerned so much so that he isn't even told (never asks) about what their activities are.

 

I don't know if that is the kind of thing that usually happens in families. But I know that MM already thinks he has no real input in their lives while he's living there... and he's scared that he'll be marginalised, forgotten, or blamed or not loved if he moves out.

 

Sami,

I have had the same discussion with my MM more than once. The guilt about hurting the children and the fear that they will hate him forever and that he will lose them. I TOTALLY understand his concerns. But I am also smart enough to see that if these issues cannot be resolved, then I and the kids are mutually exclusive, and what is then the point in continuing the A? I will never be happy being an OW and HE can never leave the kids.... The only logical conclusion to this scenario is that HE has to stay at home forever, and I have to get on with my life?

It is very harsh, but it is the clinical truth. But it is the only thing that has made my MM make any moves towards leaving his W. He has read up on the effect on children and realised that they don't automatically turn into homocidal maniacs etc. He's told the W that he wants a D, and that he doesn't love her anymore. He is trying to get her to talk about HOW to actually complete the D, but so far she is sticking her head in the sand refusing to talk about anything etc. He has put a bid on house for him to live in etc. He has the time until the deadline expires to discuss things with the wife, talk to the kids etc. He keeps assuring me that he IS leaving, and he is begging me NOT to commit myself to starting a company abroad etc.

Does this means that he IS going to leave? I don't know. Seeing is believing. But I don't think that we would be where we are if I had not made him face the truth.

No, I am not telling you what to do. You have to decide all of this for yourself. I only hope that I can inspire you. Anyway, we're in the same boat, so we can try to help each other out????

 

You know what..? I could take a WHOLE lot more of this, if ONLY I knew that it would all be OK in the end.

 

I don't want to be out 'one way or the other'. I want the same thing he does... for us to be together, without having hurt his children in the process.

 

I know he's not lying about how he feels, and what he wants. I know he's not lying about his worries about his children. I KNOW he's not a cake-eater or someone who wants an affair. I know he's not deliberately hurting me.

 

Sometimes I think all my angst and unhappiness stems from reading these boards, and hearing about how MM are the scum of the Earth. And a whole lot of them are total users. I DON'T want to be the OW. I want him to be honest with his W about how he no longer loves her, and just have some faith in the idea that he won't completely mess up his children forever if he does what he WANTS to do.

 

But... he's no more selfish than I am. We both want to do 'what's right'. But ... what IS right?

Sami,

Yes it's ME! I'm back again!

I know what you mean about being able to take a whole lot more if you KNEW that you would be together in the end. I struggled with this one for ages and then I accepted that unless you have a functioning crystal ball, then I will NOT know how things will turn out.

I have also thought about how ALL MM's are supposed to be users and cake eaters and the rest of it. But I do ask myself how many exOW who got their men would be bothered to even look up these sites, never mind posting in to tell their stories??? They are busy getting on with their lives! I personally know of one happy ending; the guy was certainly NOT a cake eater and 10 years later he is still very happy with his exOW. Yes, the vast majority of MM's probably are real b*****ds, but I don't want to generalise and say that they ALL are. What is the point of this site if you can just trot out the same answer to solve similar problems??

Anyway, back to the problem. Why don't you read articles about how to deal with children in break up situations? Read articles across the whole spectrum of opinion and decide for yourself how you think you should deal with it. No, a break up of the family is far from ideal, but I gather from most of the stuff that I have read that there are ways of making it as easy as possible for the kids and that it is HOW you break up that is more important for the kids than the break up itself. A simple google search will throw up loads of sites and articles...

Sami

 

and I told him also for me I can not have the pain of this affair going on at the same time I'm facing a divorce,it's just to much for me to bear..and Sami he literally tried to talk me into staying married so the affair can continue! I was stunned! all the while he was telling me he was in love with me...if he really loved me why would he want me to stay in a unhappy marriage? it was totally selfish and a side of my MM I wish I never seen.

 

the thing is we do know our MM's love us..I'm certian yours does as well as mine..I know he does...but do they love us enough? I asked myself after this convo with him...lets say a year from now he leaves his W and I'm single, you know after this I don't think I want him cause he didn't love me enough to stand by me..he's gonna let me face this divorce and pain alone. I will have a bitterness towards him that I'm sure I'll never shake off regaurdless of what happens now.

 

LNF,

You are so right. What you are saying is far from easy to digest, but it is true. Of course they love us - why wouldn't they? But do they love us enough? This is what I am trying to find out. It is terrifying but I have to know. If his love is not enough, then I want to get on with it, and hopefully meet someone who WILL love me enough!

Have read your responses... THANK YOU... lots to think about (and lots from earlier that I passed on to him).

In the meantime. I just want to say, I had a(nother) tear-stained phone conversation with him tonight. He reaslised that he has always tried to avoid short-term pain (for his children) even if there is long-term gain. Lots of other stuff was discussed, as usual. The end of the conversation was that he was going home to 'do the deed'.

He said he'd talk to me tomorrow morning, and then I'd know what had happened.

So... let's see.

I just don't feel up to responding to your messages... really GREAT as they are! And thanks guys... from the bottom of my heart. I'll be back in the morning, or soon... to chat, pull it all apart, and wonder where I go from here.

THANK YOU all... see you soon.

 

Have read your responses... THANK YOU... lots to think about (and lots from earlier that I passed on to him).

 

In the meantime. I just want to say, I had a(nother) tear-stained phone conversation with him tonight. He reaslised that he has always tried to avoid short-term pain (for his children) even if there is long-term gain. Lots of other stuff was discussed, as usual. The end of the conversation was that he was going home to 'do the deed'.

 

He said he'd talk to me tomorrow morning, and then I'd know what had happened.

 

So... let's see.

 

I just don't feel up to responding to your messages... really GREAT as they are! And thanks guys... from the bottom of my heart. I'll be back in the morning, or soon... to chat, pull it all apart, and wonder where I go from here.

 

THANK YOU all... see you soon.

No need to thank!!! I, for one, am only happy to help if I can!

I am also painfully aware that I might have to ask YOU for advice in a few weeks time......

> ...I love you.

>

> I can't do this now. ***Daughter*** is poorly.

> ...I love you.

>

> I can't do this now. ***Daughter*** is poorly.

Oh sami! I'm so sorry to hear your pain! Good luck with your MM. I hope that he will live up to his promises to you!

> ...I love you.

>

> I can't do this now. ***Daughter*** is poorly.

I'm guessing you got this call tonight. I'm really sorry Sami.