Well -- Here's what happened!

Well, here's what happened (sorry, this is long):

We met for dinner last night. What started out as a very light and fun converstaion soon turned into talks about the past, and confessions of love for one another. She apologized for the way things ended 3 months ago, and confirmed that it was for the same old reasons -- her fear that she's committing too soon and that the timing still isn't right.

I know, letting the discussion go there was a mistake on my part, but it was good to hear her say that she loves me and always has. When I told her that I thought her lack of communication meant that she had started to move on from me -- she told me that I was very, very wrong -- there was no other person, and her feelings for me had never changed. This was all an internal struggle on her part.

She told me that although she's been with friends and has been out on a date or two, that she has been thinking of me a lot, and missed me so much that she felt like she should call me and try to reconnect.

As the night progressed, things began to get steamy, but some serious talk continued. Specifically, she admitted that she still isn't ready to commit. She doesn't visualize herself with anyone else, but feels like she is somehow obligated to keep her options open and date even though she says she doesn't really feel like it.

I'll spare you all the conversational details, but it actually came down to her asking for a FWB relationship, except in her words "we aren't friends, because I love you."

Confusing huh?

I let my testosterone get the better of me, and we had an awesome night. Despite the difficulty of what we talked about, the lovemaking was as intimate as it ever has been, and there is no doubt that our bond still exists at all levels.

But now here I am -- its the next morning, and that painful feeling in the pit of my stomach is telling me I am fundamentally not at piece with the FWB idea. I'm left wondering what I should do.

I'm angry with myself that I can't take the same attitude that she is -- to keep the bond between us, yet also keep my options open. Why must I be "the chick" in this relationship?

My ideal scenario would be to harden my heart (a little), date others, and be happy I have a bond with her that will re-shape into friendship when and if either of us decide the options out there are better. But I also know that FWB things hurts whomever moves on last, and I don't hear many stories of them successfully turning into real relationships. I also need to remember that she is more social than I, which means the odds are for her, and against me.

I'm no longer scared of going back into No Contact, but I haven't convinced myself that is what I should do. I already know what the prevailing sentiment here is going to be: NC, NC, NC!!!!! Go ahead and tell me that, but I already know all the reasons for going that route. I'm really interested in hearing from women in their late 30's/early 40's who have been through a divorce. Was there a long period of time when you just needed to refuse to get back into a committed relationship? Did any of the men you dated during this time stick it out to see what happened on the other side of your transitionary period?

Thanks

I'll leave you with this NMS: "Why buy the cow when you can have the milk for free?"

My suggestion is to cut that off. No FWB. She will never respect you if you agree to that. Tell her your feelings for her just won't allow a FWB and that if she isn't ready to commit to you then well, you have to do what you have to do and that's take care of yourself.

I'm not going to tell you that NC is the only thing you can do. I'm going to tell you that you have to look out for yourself. Women like her who sit on the fence, they want to have their cake and eat it too. The best thing you could have done is when she asked for the FWB was to say "I'm not giving you my body when you won't give me your heart."

I then would have said "Enjoy the dating scene because so am I. I'm not waiting around for you forever."

She's a commitment phobe. Just like my ex. She will always be looking for someone better than you. That to me is just ridiculous. If you think there's someone better than me, why the hell do you keep coming back to me for sex? Fine, no sex. Go find someone better because that's exactly what I am going to do.

Find someone better - for me.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Having been through something similar I feel you'll be wasting your time waiting around for her. You are so much better off dating other women because you will eventually meet someone better than her and NOT afraid to commit.

Ok, NMS, here's my view...

I dated this woman (my most recent ex) who had just come out of 2 long-term relationships totalling 17 years of straight committment. I had known her for about 5 years. We hit it off from the bat on a relationship level. We had an intense connection that she in no way will deny. We connected sexually, communicatively (if that's even a word), and any other level you could imagine. Basically, once the committment took a very serious route, she freaked out and ran the other way. She said that she loves me, wants to date me, but can't commit to me or anyone else for that matter. She wanted to be able to date me and others at the same time. I guess I was the chick because I couldn't go back all the way to the beginning. I couldn't be intimate with her knowing she's intimate with others. It broke both of our hearts. I now realize that it had nothing to do with me...she needed to be free and date around and do whatever it is that she needs to do. The story is a lot longer but this post isn't about me.

Bottom line is that it's SO HARD to go from being so seriously involved to a FWB situation. It will drive you nuts wanting to know what/who she's doing. My ex and I went back/forth for 3 months trying to figure it out and realized that space is best right now. (no doubtedly for my own sake). It's better to end things now with the idea of a possible connection later on after this period she's going through is done as opposed to trying to do something you know you can't and possibly ruining any chance of even a friendship. (my ex told me that) Move on in your heart but don't let go. Start healing yourself. Who knows...you may realize that it's her you don't want to be with afterall. I know how hard it is. I'm still dealing with it every day. Be confident in your decision because there is no changing it. FWB is going to hurt like hell - regardless if you both still love each other. Have enough respect for yourself to not go that route with someone you truly, genuinely are in love with.

Hi nms. I can't really add much to skeptik's excellent post, but I thought I'd chime in as a 30-something woman who's been through a divorce and is now dating.

Everyone's different, and I can't pretend to know what's going on in her mind, but I wouldn't label her as a commitment-phobe. Especially considering that she has, in fact, been married (I assume, from your post, that that is the case?) Perhaps she's gunshy, perhaps she's working out what went wrong, perhaps any number of things.

Bottom line is, she's not ready to commit to you, right now. And she's being honest and telling you that. It sucks, because you want to find a way around that or through it - but there isn't anything you can change here. What she has told you is all the information you really need to know. And I think a FWB situation would be incredibly damaging to you - I know it's a way to ensure that she's still thinking about you, in touch with you, keeping the possibility of returning to full relationship open, getting to hear that she still loves you.

But it's not what you really want.

I'm reading a lot of stuff in your post, and in the other thread, that shows how highly you think of her - and, subtly, puts yourself down. Please, don't. You don't need to self-abnegate to demonstrate how much you care - the important thing here is for you to love yourself, and be kind to yourself. Don't hurt yourself more by accepting less than a full relationship, when it is crystal clear to you, and her, that that is what you want.

It's painful, but I think you should cut the tie.

All of your replies struck a major chord within me. I am so torn right now, I literally frozen from my over-active brain.

She even admitted what she was asking for was selfish, and at moments during our conversation, she started to cry and think that her own request wasn't the right thing to ask of me.

I really believe she loves me -- which makes all of this letting go so much harder for me. You are right that this isn't what I want -- but I so very much want to want that -- just to maintain the connection.

I'm hurting now.

Thanks again for your replies. I have a lot of thinking to do.

You meet her for the night have amazing sex, lots of intimate bonding. You express your love her she returns "I Love You too". You say I would love to see you again tomorrow night. She says I would love to but I have a date! Would you be able to accept that? Would you feel ok just being one of her options, no mattter how much she says she loves you. I couldn't handle that, most probably couldn't either.

NMS, she's not convinced you are the "one." Like I said, I just went through this and she strung me along for 2 years. I would have been so much better off had she just said "You're not the one." Instead, because sexually we were awesome together, she hid her true feelings from me to keep me on a leash until she found someone she liked better. Someone she *was* willing to commit to.

This to me is one of the most selfish and cruel things you do to anyone. You purpose hurt someone else for your own needs. That's why I feel karma will eventually pay her a visit.

In the meantime, what is best for YOU should be the priority. See you really aren't losing much if she finds someone else. If you are living your own life, seeing other people and being happy, then what she does really can't effect you. But if you enter into a FWB agreement with her while you still love her, you will never, ever be able to heal completely and date someone else.

And while she is getting her needs met by you, she'll be looking for the next guy to come along. Her heart will not be drawn to you because she knows that you'll always be there for her.

Do you see what that does? That gives her the cake (you) and the icing (other men). She gets to window shop men while you're "always there" for her.

This is selfish.

This is cruel.

This is complete bull-chips.

If you respect yourself you will not allow this to happen.

If you have confidence in yourself you will know that you will find someone more suitable for you.

I would tell her that a FWB is not acceptable and that if she can't commit to you then wish her luck, but you're moving on with your life. You don't want to be with a commitment phobe. You know what you want in your life. You're confident and self-assured and won't allow yourself to be used for her own selfish needs.

You meet her for the night have amazing sex, lots of intimate bonding. You express your love her she returns "I Love You too". You say I would love to see you again tomorrow night. She says I would love to but I have a date! Would you be able to accept that? Would you feel ok just being one of her options, no mattter how much she says she loves you. I couldn't handle that, most probably couldn't either.

Well said. The funny thing is, is that we talked a bit about this scenario last night. We both agreed that hearing about each-others dates would be torture, and that we'd avoid the subject. Thing-is, is that it doesn't matter, I always can "feel" when she's going to go on a date -- even if she uses some nondescript phrase like "going out with a friend."

I'm almost there friends. I may talk to her today and end all of this. I just don't know -- I'm tired and weary from lack of sleep, and I feel that I can't think rationally quite yet.

Do you see what that does? That gives her the cake (you) and the icing (other men). She gets to window shop men while you're "always there" for her.

 

This is selfish.

This is cruel.

This is complete bull-chips.

 

If you respect yourself you will not allow this to happen.

If you have confidence in yourself you will know that you will find someone more suitable for you.

I know Cali, I know. I'm searching the on-line pharmacies for some balls-growing potion right now.

I know Cali, I know. I'm searching the on-line pharmacies for some balls-growing potion right now.

It's all about self-respect my friend.

"Honor thy self"

If you want to be her marionette, then by all means appease her needs while neglecting your own.

You have needs. You want a relationship. You want a solid one. She does not.

Who's needs are more important? In this case, your needs are not being met at all. She's unwilling to commit to you then fine, no FWB. Go back to NC and start dating other women. Put her out of your mind. Yes, she wants to go kiss frogs and so be it, but you're not going to wait around for her.

And mean it.

Do it.

Live your life and forget about her because chances are she's never going to commit to you.

And she definitely will not if you give her the milk for free.

I want to comment on the excerpt below from your post, NMS.

My ideal scenario would be to harden my heart (a little), date others, and be happy I have a bond with her that will re-shape into friendship when and if either of us decide the options out there are better. But I also know that FWB things hurts whomever moves on last, and I don't hear many stories of them successfully turning into real relationships.

My comment focuses on the Friends With Benefits that you mention with someone you have had a serious relationship.

Early on in one of my own posts, I answered to another poster, without clarifying, -that friends with benefits never works.

I want to clarify my statement now, using your post.

I truly believe that FWB does not, cannot work in a relationship where two people have been emotionally and physically connected in a serious relationship that has undergone drastic changes as those occurring in a permanent break-up situation.

It simply is too agonizing.

I also think you are proving my point in your post.

It's what we think will work, it's what we want, -but because of the painful emotions still present, all it renders is heartbreak and disappointment.

This also validates the core basis for strict 'No Contact' and good reason to use it, -it removes you from the direct, in-person turning of the knife in an already bleeding wound.

And, note that it's something that you do to yourself!

When the relationship is dead for all practical reasons and there is zero hope of reviving, from a sensible, healthy viewpoint, the status of the partnership, FWB only delays the recovery process.

The status of the relationship will be this: one of you will always be turning the knife, and the other will always be feeling the pain.

At some point, you have to realize, as a human being, you were only built to withstand so much pain rendered by another, and only you stand in the way of that happening or not.

You are not totally without options to protect yourself from feeling this kind of pain: No Contact.

So, then, -how- and in what situations is FWB OK?

Answer: In relationships where respect of each other is present and no serious romantic expectations exist, nor the expectations of a long-term relationship.

First of all, the criteria of 'friendship' should be established, and the boundaries clearly discussed , -and just as importantly, the length of the relationship, and the frequency that you meet with each other should be very limited.

This inhibits, -but does not secure- your chances of getting caught up in an emotional romantic farce.

I hope this post has helped someone.

NMS, I am sorry for your pain, and know you will continue to be hurt for some time, yet, but I also know that your intelligence will triumph in this situation.

Take care.

-Rio

Again, I strongly suggest the following links to anyone in this situation:

____________________________________

CaliGuy's Guide to Being a Balanced Man

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=697117&postcount=1

No Foolin's Guide to No Contact

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=56954

Pro-Active Healing From A Break-Up

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=695430&postcount=1

<<Tell her your feelings for her just won't allow a FWB and that if she isn't ready to commit to you then well, you have to do what you have to do and that's take care of yourself.>>

It's obvious (to me) that this is what you need to do, since a FWB scenario w/her doesn't sit well with you. You'll never be satisfied and knowing that could be with someone else at any given time will eat away at you.

<< Women like her who sit on the fence, they want to have their cake and eat it too. >>

This is a bit harsh. Cheating on you would be more along the lines of 'having her cake and eating it too'. She is being honest with you about where she 'is' at this moment and giving you the option of taking it or leaving it. It is, after all, your choice.

I have never been one who is able to date more than one person at a time, however, after my divorce it took years to want to be in a serious relationship. It took awhile to shake the marriage (i asked for the divorce, btw) out of my system and I was in no way ready to commit to another relationship. But when I was ready(3 years later), it was something I 100% wanted. (although I don't know if I was ready because of timing or the guy)

How long has this woman been divorced?? And isn't she bothered by the prospect of you dating others? Or is she getting the impression that you won't/don't?

This is a bit harsh. Cheating on you would be more along the lines of 'having her cake and eating it too'. She is being honest with you about where she 'is' at this moment and giving you the option of taking it or leaving it. It is, after all, your choice.

She made it clear she wants to 'date' other men while having a FWB situation with him. It may or may not be cheating to you physically but it's the emotional 'cheating' that I'm concerned about.

cali, i'm not one to defend cheating in any form, but i do think that it involves, at the most fundamental level, lying to your committed partner. she isn't doing that at all (neither lying, nor are they committed at this point), so i think it's not accurate to say what she's doing is cheating.

which is not to say that what she's offering isn't very selfish. it most certainly is - and she knows it, too.

when nms is ready to see it for what it is - a selfish offering that forces him to choose and gives her the opportunity to avoid doing so - i think he'll be ready to turn it down. as he should.

RE:

Originally Posted by notmakingsense

I know Cali, I know. I'm searching the on-line pharmacies for some balls-growing potion right now.

The pharmacy will not have this unique potion, -you will only find it exclusively compounded by your own intolerance of abuse with regard to your self-respect.

That's why I, a mere woman, also have a set of balls...(Smile)....

-Rio

RE:

SerialMuse: " it's not accurate to say what she's doing is cheating.

 

which is not to say that what she's offering isn't very selfish. it most certainly is - and she knows it, too.

 

when nms is ready to see it for what it is - a selfish offering that forces him to choose and gives her the opportunity to avoid doing so - i think he'll be ready to turn it down. as he should. "

Spot on.

She does realize she is sitting in the proverbial 'catbird's seat'.

And she's using it's power for all it's worth, -to her.

-Rio

I want to thank everyone for their posts, and my thought processes are a bit blurry right now, but I do want to add some information...

* She tells me it is not about her desire to date others, but the idea that this option shouldn't exist for her. She's told me over and over that she believes that I'm the one for her, but that she isn't ready yet. She recognizes and acknowledges her own contradiction, and it causes her to be troubled and emotional.

* She's been separated from her husband for 3 years, and the divorce just became final recently

* She is definitely not a cheater, and a condition of our FWB situation was monogamy (sexually). Back to my first point, she has gone out on dates almost as a sense of obligation -- almost that she must go through this rite of passage before she can be ready to commit again. She believes I'm the one that she could commit to -- but she obviously doesn't trust herself right now.

Anyway, I'm rambling. I'll let you know how my next discussions go with her. I'm very close to calling it quits (again).

Back to my first point, she has gone out on dates almost as a sense of obligation -- almost that she must go through this rite of passage before she can be ready to commit again. She believes I'm the one that she could commit to -- but she obviously doesn't trust herself right now.

A sense of obligation? rite of passage?

Plain and simple...she's stringing you along telling you your the one! Wow she has you in her back pocket! If she wants really thinks your the one, then there shouldn't be any issue and she would want you now!

Stay away from her

Yeah -- this is why I wanted input from divorcees or women out of long relationships.... I've heard lots of talk of transitionary relationships and unwillingness to commit by this group -- and I'm looking for more viewpoints... this woman is no immature or fundamentally selfish person -- I really do believe she's battling a ton of internal conflict on this.

Either way, I'm not the one for her *right now* -- and that's all I should need to know to put this to rest for now.

Yeah -- this is why I wanted input from divorcees or women out of long relationships.... I've heard lots of talk of transitionary relationships and unwillingness to commit by this group -- and I'm looking for more viewpoints... this woman is no immature or fundamentally selfish person -- I really do believe she's battling a ton of internal conflict on this.

 

Either way, I'm not the one for her *right now* -- and that's all I should need to know to put this to rest for now.

This woman plays you like a frucking fiddle, NMS.

I was separated a short period of time from a 13 year marriage when I met my H. I didn't have to play around with a bunch of other men to know a good catch when I saw one. There was no "transitionary relationship" or "unwillingness to commit" on my part whatsoever- because I was into him the same way he was into me.

The only time all of that bull**** occurs is when the other person is NOT into the person that they are dating.

To be honest with you, I was scared as hell to be with my husband, even as a boyfriend, because I'd been hurt and I didn't trust anyone. But let me tell you one thing, being scared was better than being without him. I was afraid to turn my back on what we had for one minute.

One reason is because I knew he could have his pick of women and I didn't want to give him up to a non steady relationship because I thought, ooohhhh I didn't want anyone else to have a chance with him! I wanted him all to myself. Get it? I didn't want to say, yes, I'm in love with you, but let's date other people because I was scared that he might actually do it.

This woman has no fear of you finding anyone else because she knows all she has to do is crook her little finger, just like she did the other night, and you'll be there waiting like a good boy.

My forehead is bruised from banging my head against the wall with this one. Why anyone would be willing to accept the scraps that she throws at you is beyond me. Even to get laid as well as you say she lays you.

One reason is because I knew he could have his pick of women and I didn't want to give him up to a non steady relationship because I thought, ooohhhh I didn't want anyone else to have a chance with him! I wanted him all to myself. Get it? I didn't want to say, yes, I'm in love with you, but let's date other people because I was scared that he might actually do it.

 

This woman has no fear of you finding anyone else because she knows all she has to do is crook her little finger, just like she did the other night, and you'll be there waiting like a good boy.

 

My forehead is bruised from banging my head against the wall with this one. Why anyone would be willing to accept the scraps that she throws at you is beyond me. Even to get laid as well as you say she lays you.

Hey Mz Pixie -- Don't bang your head against the wall.... I'm taking care of that all by myself.

She's totally afraid of me dating others, and she told me so outright -- especially after I hinted at the two dates I actually went on when we were broken up.

I got what I wanted out of this latest meeting -- what her intentions are. I didn't have that two months ago, and thank goodness she is being honest and up front about it.

I'm talking to her tonight and telling her that she either exclusively dates me, or I'm separating again. Dont' worry -- I'm prepared.

 

 

One reason is because I knew he could have his pick of women and I didn't want to give him up to a non steady relationship because I thought, ooohhhh I didn't want anyone else to have a chance with him! I wanted him all to myself. Get it? I didn't want to say, yes, I'm in love with you, but let's date other people because I was scared that he might actually do it.

 

QUOTE]

 

 

Mz. Pixie totally nailed it here!!

 

The guys that I dated in my 'transitory' period....I've never regretted not committing to them. The men I was committed to.....the thought of them dating other people when we were together would make me sick.

 

Hence the question about you dating others. Don't you want her to feel the same way?? I know you two talked about not discussing each others dates, but....God, the imagery should be equally disturbing to you both.

Well -- I did it. I told her that I couldn't handle the dating others thing. She couldn't respond, so it's back to NC for me.

Guest -- yes, I would want and expect that she would feel sick about me dating others. She says she can't stand the thought, but I guess it just isn't bad enough for her? The thought of her dating others makes me sick, and that's why I can't handle this.

Thanks for everyone's support. Unless an act of god happens and she can demonstrate commitment, its back to the long journey of coping for me.

She's totally afraid of me dating others, and she told me so outright -- especially after I hinted at the two dates I actually went on when we were broken up.

 

 

I'm talking to her tonight and telling her that she either exclusively dates me, or I'm separating again. Dont' worry -- I'm prepared.

Totally afraid of you dating others?? Ummmm, no she's not- because she went three months without contacting you, not knowing what you were up to. She might say that or act like that, but it doesn't mean it's true. All part of her game she's playing.

So, you said at first you would do it and now you're coming back again and telling her no?? What kind of signal does that send to her?? That was the wrong way to handle it. In person you waffle and can't tell her no but then when you are apart you can?? What does that tell her? That she only has to be in your face to get you to change your mind.

Totally afraid of you dating others?? Ummmm, no she's not- because she went three months without contacting you, not knowing what you were up to. She might say that or act like that, but it doesn't mean it's true. All part of her game she's playing.

 

So, you said at first you would do it and now you're coming back again and telling her no?? What kind of signal does that send to her?? That was the wrong way to handle it. In person you waffle and can't tell her no but then when you are apart you can?? What does that tell her? That she only has to be in your face to get you to change your mind.

Fair enough Mz. Pixie, fair enough. I told her on the phone Friday night that I can't do what we did again until there is more of a commitment from her. She got choked up and we ended the call and I followed it up with an e-mail that basically said the same thing -- but using a lot more words.

For now, since I'm so weak and waffling in person (not healed yet), I'm going to refuse a face to face meeting with her unless she tells me that she really wants to work on a commitment.

2 days NC and counting.

Thanks for your support!