Atheism vs. Theism

As a hardcore atheist, I simply want to state a few opinions and raise these questions:

 

Opinions:

1. I am okay with anyone's religious belief as long as it is not imposed on me, and as long as I am not discriminated based on my beliefs. I also extend the same concept to others.

2. I believe science and logic is the only way to examine the universe -- any "mystery" or "enigma" is simply something we do not yet know.

3. Dangerous opinion, but here goes: I feel that those who are not atheist simply do not understand all the arguments in favor.

4. I believe we can explain everything (and I do mean everything) without the need for a God or external force -- I am very much against the "God of the gaps" argument.

 

And so, my questions:

1. If you are indeed a God-believer, why are you?

2. If you are religious and yet still understand all points in favor of atheism, why do you still choose theism?

Edited October 29, 2009 by Vertex

long post be warned

I'm basicly for atheism except for one little detail

you will never be 100% sure that there is no God, sure you have evolution, and the fact that all religious books come from inaccurate maybe biased sources, all written by men...but you will not have the 100% there is no God proof

 

however I decided even if God exists I do not wish to worship him, and if I am looking to see if God exists or not, it's just for the sake of seeking truth. I will not devote my life and my free will and bow to a being that does not consider me worthy enough of a solid undisputed proof of his existence

a higher being that has seen people die in his name fighting each other, and has not settled the argument, which would have been easy to do

 

in the current wars, everyone dies believing they are going to heaven

no offense to anyone in the following but

american soldiers who die in iraq for their country believe they are heroes going to heaven

the jihadists that die fighting off the invaders believe they are going to heaven

israeli palestinian conflict same story

muslims say God wants them to take back the holy land that has been defiled by these non believers

and the zionists say this is their holy land that God wanted for them

 

and we simply what? pick a side to stand next to, we die for our belief and God could have sorted out the matter in instances

some of the people on all these different sides are actualy good people, in any different circumstances they would have been best friends

generosity, honesty and intelligence is not closely related to one race

 

but it takes one uncaring God(assuming he exists) to have these people kill other people they don't know and they personnaly have nothing against

 

second thing that bugs me, the religious rules make no sense for the most part

the emphasis they have on no intercourse without marriage. first of all, if both these adults are ok with it, what's bothering Christ so much? or Mohammad(SAA) as the case may be or God...

 

what does christianity have against rich people?(example) yes I studied 10 years to become a surjeon, I was 30 before I ever had a girlfriend, I worked my butt of for 20 years and was good at my job, I made loads of cash just before I turned 60, I should ask God for forgiveness because it is easier for a camel to go through a needle hole than a rich man to enter heaven(my own translation from the arabic bible I have, never read an english one )

 

what does christianity have against thought? oh don't have impure thoughts, don't hate, don't get any evil thoughts, don't desire your neighbor's wife, don't desire your neighbor's possetion. yes I desired my neighbor's laptop, which is why I saved money to buy one just like it, big deal. yes I like his wife, she's hot, I can't help it, I'm notgonna do anything about it, big deal

 

it's my head, even acient egyptian slaves that were chained together and forced to build the pyramids had the luxury of freedome of thought

there is nothing worse than putting limits on the mind, to make people resist their own nature and fear it

 

in the end they say God is forgiving, yeah but he is forgiving us for his definition of a sin, in absolute terms what christ say God forgives is not even a crime or anything

I wouldn't mind if a woman fantasizes about me, or even a homosexual did, I don't mind if someone hates me and punches the wall in his bedroom thinking it is my face... it's his mind, as long as nothing actualy happenes, I don't care, it's not wrong. don't kill don't steal don't rape, beyond that nothing qualifies as evil, well maybe don't lie and cheat, but even that is not always such a big deal

 

finaly I'd like to say, again, assuming God exists, my parents had just as much hand in creating me as God did, without them after all I wouldn't be me, you don't see me bowing to my dad as he comes out holding up a candle to him, why is my way of treatign God should be any different? if anything my dad gets more credit, at least I see him work his butt off to give me a good life, God simply made the world billions of years ago with one word, and he has been resting ever since

 

with respects to everyone, this is my opinion

belief in religion, per se, is irrational and based in emotion so i wouldn't expect any clear answers here...

As a hardcore atheist, I simply want to state a few opinions and raise these questions:

 

Opinions:

1. I am okay with anyone's religious belief as long as it is not imposed on me, and as long as I am not discriminated based on my beliefs. I also extend the same concept to others.

2. I believe science and logic is the only way to examine the universe -- any "mystery" or "enigma" is simply something we do not yet know.

 

There are positives to looking at the universe through both kaleidoscopes, scientific or religious.

 

3. Dangerous opinion, but here goes: I feel that those who are not atheist simply do not understand all the arguments in favor.

 

Yes, because if they don't agree with you then surely it's because they don't understand your divine logic.

 

4. I believe we can explain everything (and I do mean everything) without the need for a God or external force -- I am very much against the "God of the gaps" argument.

 

We can try to explain it. That doesn't make it true or fact though. Until we find the missing link, Darwin's theory of human origin doesn't mean ****. So thus far, it is only an attempt. And even then, it's science doesn't necessarily disprove religion.

 

1. If you are indeed a God-believer, why are you?

 

I am not above the idea of being part of something bigger than myself, and I can accept the probability of there being a higher power. My vehicle for this belief is Christianity.

 

2. If you are religious and yet still understand all points in favor of atheism, why do you still choose theism?

 

Because I don't believe that everything needs a scientific explanation. I can accept that we may never be able to explain everything, and that is probably how God wants it to be. Faith does not require proof. Otherwise it is not faith at all. I cannot stress that point enough when atheists prod my brain about religion.

 

I'm not normally one to toot the horn of wikipedia, because it has it's flaws and misinformation, but according to it, atheism is something only around %2.3 of the world's population believes in.

 

"Today, about 2.3% of the world's population describes itself as atheist, while a further 11.9% is described as nontheist." (this statement cited within wiki from Encyclopedia Britannica)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

 

To say that only %2.3 of the world's population is thinking clearly, and the rest are blind fools that cannot grasp the logic of atheism, is a very ignorant idea.

Edited October 29, 2009 by TheLoneSock
typo

To say that only %2.3 of the world's population is thinking clearly, and the rest are blind fools that cannot grasp the logic of atheism, is a very ignorant idea.

religion comes from parents to children brainwashing

atheism for the most part is something people discover on their own

 

my grandfather had 7 children, he was christian, guess what they all turned out to be

oh and by coincidence guess what all my cousins are

 

tough to guess right?

and when your country is dominated by religious schools, you have a christian TV, a christian radio, 2 muslim TV channels and radio

atheism don't stand a chance

is it because of flaw in logic? no, it's unfair competition, yet it is emerging

 

also, don't you think that believing in God is wishful thinking?

I mean, who doesn't want to believe that there is an eternity of happiness waiting for them after death

heck I even want to believe it, but I just don't see it happening

Edited October 29, 2009 by 627

Yes, because if they don't agree with you then surely it's because they don't understand your divine logic.

 

What I mean by that statement is that most theists I encounter are not aware of all the points in favor of atheism. If I bring up such points, I usually find that the proof gets poo-poo'd because they don't really want to face the proof or actually debate it. The difference between an atheistic and theistic belief, in my opinion, is a much greater degree of probability weighing in the latter. You can say "God maybe doesn't want us to understand everything," but I could just as easily say "There are simply things we don't know yet, but it doesn't mean we don't eventually find a better explanation for the various phenomena in our universe with logic and science," which has been shown on multiple occasions.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Vertex

And so, my questions:

1. If you are indeed a God-believer, why are you? it's a gift I accepted and embraced. Not everyone is called to faith.

 

2. If you are religious and yet still understand all points in favor of atheism, why do you still choose theism? simply because it's mine to choose. It's between me and The Big Guy, everyone else is irrelevant in that regard

 

atheism is just another vehicle on the road to spirituality, same as religion and faith. Not sure why people feel that faith and intellect are mutually exclusive, they're just different sides of the same coin – intellect provides explanations, faith revels in the miracle of the unknown.

well because faith drives people to do irrationnal things, that often contributed to delay of progress and inequality

I agree with that statement 100% quankanne, but I guess my question is, in the face of all we are able to show with science, why have faith in God?

 

For example, science can explain the structure of the universe, why humans exist the way they do, why scientific design is NOT essential to describe anything/how evolution describes the rise of complex systems from the simplistic, why "meaning" is purely a construct of intellectualizing and not necessarily something "objective," etc. A theist would say "what we don't know is perhaps up to God" whereas an atheist would say "We just don't know yet."

 

Over time, we've constantly shown how science has been shoving the need for a God out of the picture as we learn more and more. It's basically analogous to a mathematical limit -- we're seeing that as x->infinity, 1/x goes to 0 -- we'll never be able to realize the "0" case, but we're certainly close enough to the asymptote to insinuate that putting faith in God is putting faith in a low-probability event.

 

I just never understood how, if someone understood these concepts, they would still put faith in something like a God. Or, for that matter, a "God of the gaps" argument which is basically "Well, there's always a chance. Whatever it is we don't know, we can just say God did it." For me to "have faith in a God" is no different from me having faith in there being a unicorn under my bed. We can explain everything about our universe without the need for a God -- why tack on the extra variable?

 

Religion may give some people a happy life -- it may even act as a moral compass or give people meaning. However, what it makes us feel does not make it true. If religion helps, that's great -- but as an explanation for the universe, I would say it's a poor one. It's comforting, for instance, to think there's an afterlife. But we are indeed physical creatures that just so happen to be equipped with sentience. Our makeup is no different in terms of source than any other physical object. Is there a Heaven for grass? For my desk? For the ocean? What about a cup of water? Do we simply draw the line at humans because we're sentient and capable of attaching "meaning" to our existence?

 

 

Theists, please pick away at everything I've just said!

I gave up arguing with religiots after I saw this quote:

 

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"

I gave up arguing with religiots after I saw this quote:

 

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"

maybe if atheists had real propaganda and talk shows

they may have in europe and the US, I don't know, but not many are prevalent

it is in religion as in politics, it's not who's right or wrong, it's who has the most powerful media

What exactly made you decide to be a "hard-core" atheist? Are you also big-time anti-fairy? What about mermaids? Are you a hard-core anti-mermaid activist? Do you rail against the idea of minotaurs?

 

I mean if you don't believe it exists, why be hard-core about it? It doesn't exist. There's nothing to be against.

What exactly made you decide to be a "hard-core" atheist? Are you also big-time anti-fairy? What about mermaids? Are you a hard-core anti-mermaid activist? Do you rail against the idea of minotaurs?

 

I mean if you don't believe it exists, why be hard-core about it? It doesn't exist. There's nothing to be against.

not sure who you are refering to in this post but

as it seems it is a human tendency to try to convert everyone to your way of thinking just like democrats and republicans argue and sometimes it gets heavy, despite the fact that everyone is entitled to his own opinion

 

second, I also believe the world would be a better place if everyone accepted the idea that there is nothing after death

I think you'd find people less excited about diying in wars trying to kill others thinking that this death for this righteous heroic cause is a road to heaven. and you'll find less inequality and racism if people I believed"I am born here because of my accident of birth" instead of the current way of thinking"God blessed me specificly with faith, with this life, I'm special, we are the righteous holy people and these other people living way over there are the heathens, poisoning the world with their evil teachings, they will go to hell if they do not repent to my system of belief" (this sentence applies to almost every religion without exception)

What exactly made you decide to be a "hard-core" atheist? Are you also big-time anti-fairy? What about mermaids? Are you a hard-core anti-mermaid activist? Do you rail against the idea of minotaurs?

 

I mean if you don't believe it exists, why be hard-core about it? It doesn't exist. There's nothing to be against.

 

Minotaurs are cool <3

 

In terms of "hardcore" I guess I really just mean "I am atheist," heh. Regardless, some people DO believe in theism, and thus the opening for debate appears

Edited October 30, 2009 by Vertex

not sure who you are refering to in this post but

as it seems it is a human tendency to try to convert everyone to your way of thinking just like democrats and republicans argue and sometimes it gets heavy, despite the fact that everyone is entitled to his own opinion

 

second, I also believe the world would be a better place if everyone accepted the idea that there is nothing after death

I think you'd find people less excited about diying in wars trying to kill others thinking that this death for this righteous heroic cause is a road to heaven. and you'll find less inequality and racism if people I believed"I am born here because of my accident of birth" instead of the current way of thinking"God blessed me specificly with faith, with this life, I'm special, we are the righteous holy people and these other people living way over there are the heathens, poisoning the world with their evil teachings, they will go to hell if they do not repent to my system of belief" (this sentence applies to almost every religion without exception)

 

I wasn't referring to you, but you'll do. I think you should be clear about your terms. You might be atheist, but there are many atheists who wouldn't necessarily want to be linked with someone who confuses atheism with being anti-religion.

 

If you want to argue against God, that's one thing. That doesn't necessarily rule out religion.

 

If you want to argue against religion, that's something else. It doesn't necessarily rule out God.

 

The idea of God doesn't have to exist for people to behave in the way you describe. Nazism and Communism were both atheistic, and were both arguably more destructive than Hinduism or Buddhism ever was. While, in the absence of God, Christianity is pretty irrational, the majority of Christians are nevertheless peace-loving, generous, compassionate people. Same thing with Muslims. The ones who aren't would be what they are with or without a religion to use as an excuse.

 

If you just don't like the idea that they believe in a God anyway, regardless of how they behave, then how is this your post essentially any different from one a Bible thumper might start? Are you spontaneously preaching? Are you trying to convert? It seems that you must be. And like you, I get annoyed when people preach to me or try to convert me to their way of thinking.

 

I'm waiting for a supposed atheist to have a novel thought or a new way of looking at the subject. It's always the same: "people who believe in God often do bad things in the name of God" and "God doesn't exist". That's fine. But keep in mind most thinking people, the ones you'd like to engage, have already come to terms with those ideas by the time they've left high school.

Johan, I'd debate your examples of atheism being the source of things like Nazism and Communism (atheism was not the impetus for these social constructs), but my goal is not to convert people, but simply to ask why people believe what they do.

 

I always feel like it's best to form an opinion after you have all your facts and unknowns on the table that you can. Forming an opinion without doing so is prone to a lot of incorrect notions, which is why I am wondering why some people are theists even with all the evidence suggesting that there is, with extremely high probability, no God. I feel that many people form their opinions without much thought when it comes to religion, primarily because so many are indoctrinated with this concept of "God" from an early age.

 

The problem between theists and atheists is that they operate on different systems -- one takes the route of faith and the other does not. My question is to those who have thoroughly examined both roads and yet still choose faith.

Do you equate the lack of evidence in favor of a God to be evidence against one? I'd say there is plenty of evidence to support whatever viewpoint you adopt. Or there are plenty of facts that you can use to support your viewpoint. In reality there is not a lot of evidence to be found either in favor or or against a God. Atheists rely on faith just as much as believers do.

Do you equate the lack of evidence in favor of a God to be evidence against one? I'd say there is plenty of evidence to support whatever viewpoint you adopt. Or there are plenty of facts that you can use to support your viewpoint. In reality there is not a lot of evidence to be found either in favor or or against a God. Atheists rely on faith just as much as believers do.

 

I equate evidence against a God to be evidence against a God. We can explain everything in our universe through natural, scientific processes which we've come to understand and expand upon. The only evidence theists tend to give me in favor of a God is "you can't disprove God, so he could still exist," which is true. You can't disprove God -- but there's enough proof to show that he likely does not beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

What is your opinion of things like evolution? The concept of human meaning? Necessary conditions? Intelligent design? To say atheists rely on faith just as much as theists do is totally incorrect. It's like saying I have faith in gravity. We can test gravity. We can examine its effects. A theist has nothing to show for his beliefs -- no explanation beyond a mere feeling.

Edited October 30, 2009 by Vertex

What is your opinion of things like evolution? The concept of human meaning? Intelligent design?

 

They are part of the natural order of the world as it should be according to the creative force to which we owe deference.

 

To say atheists rely on faith just as much as theists do is totally incorrect.

 

You think science refutes God. Others think science explains God. Einstein himself thought the latter. You are relying on your faith that he was wrong, because you really don't know. And it has to be a strong faith because the consequences of being wrong are, for all you know, pretty extreme.

I honestly don't know what I want

my society is very religious and I want to fit in, and I like that they have a sense of purpose in their life, no matter how bad stuff go they still have hope. however at the same time I do not want to be like them, completly irrationnal setting dumb social rules and some are very racists and closed minded

I haven't told my parents and friends I am an atheist yet, anyway they're still not done critisizing me for saying"homosexuals are humans too and there is nothing wrong with marrying a non virgin woman" for now these 2 concepts are too much to grasp for most of them

 

and I'm sorry I tend to be aggressive in judging religion, but you would understand if I told you I am living in disgust of my surrounding, as my location used to state I live in the middle east, just comparing the social norms between us and less conservative societies, we're miles behind

because adam is the creation of God and eve is adam's rib

because the man is the head of the woman

a 25 year old woman can't go out late in the evening without her dad's permission in many cases

sex outside of marriage is out, mouth to mouth kissing maybe possible after a few month of dating

they're too busy trying to figure out what God wants and struggling over how to distribute government seats between religions instead of working on actualy improving infrastructures for all citizens equaly, and this is why my opinion will tend to be aggressivly against religion

I'm stuck in this lifestyle against my will, in this hell, everyone around me sees it as normal, but I see how ugly it truly is, because I learned that there is a better world out there

 

the above was refering to the christians lifestyle, if I were a muslim, holding hands is only allowed after marriage, seing your woman's face is only allowed after marriage

 

God may or may not exist as I said but what I am 98% sure of is that the bible and the quraan teachings should not be applied

it makes people miserable for no reason

You think science refutes God. Others think science explains God. Einstein himself thought the latter. You are relying on your faith that he was wrong, because you really don't know. And it has to be a strong faith because the consequences of being wrong are, for all you know, pretty extreme.

 

Einstein was brilliant but he was certainly not the type of guy atheists would agree with today.

 

Could you please answer my question about the individual components (evolution/intelligent design/necessary conditions/etc). They're all very good evidence against God and why he is not necessary for the universe and our existence to be as they are.

 

How would you say science explains God and yet remains consistent with the evidence against?

As a hardcore atheist, I simply want to state a few opinions and raise these questions:

In other words, you are an athiestic fanatic.

1. I am okay with anyone's religious belief as long as it is not imposed on me, and as long as I am not discriminated based on my beliefs. I also extend the same concept to others.

What you do with your life is okay so long as it does not infringe on my rights or on the rights of others.

2. I believe science and logic is the only way to examine the universe -- any "mystery" or "enigma" is simply something we do not yet know.

It does not guide us, and it does not improve the human condition. Like and sideshow, it is brief and unfulfilling.

3. Dangerous opinion, but here goes: I feel that those who are not atheist simply do not understand all the arguments in favor.

In other words, I am too s-s-stupid (Imagine a stuttering southern accent) to be an atheist.

4. I believe we can explain everything (and I do mean everything) without the need for a God or external force -- I am very much against the "God of the gaps" argument.

Scooby Doo, where are you?

I never like the whole "there is always a logical explanation."

1. If you are indeed a God-believer, why are you?

Isn't it obvious. I am too stupid to be an atheist.

2. If you are religious and yet still understand all points in favor of atheism, why do you still choose theism?

Here is the rub. I might be too stupid to realize just how stupid am.

 

 

You need to understand that there is no room for bias in the scientific method.

 

I think a lot of the leaders (more like writers) in the athiest movement are really shameless self promoters. Their message is just product targeted to a specific audience. It is just pornography of a different sort.

Forming an opinion without doing so is prone to a lot of incorrect notions, which is why I am wondering why some people are theists even with all the evidence suggesting that there is, with extremely high probability, no God. I feel that many people form their opinions without much thought when it comes to religion, primarily because so many are indoctrinated with this concept of "God" from an early age.

 

The problem between theists and atheists is that they operate on different systems -- one takes the route of faith and the other does not. My question is to those who have thoroughly examined both roads and yet still choose faith.

You ask this question is like you ask a couple, why they love each other so much. When you see this couple, you may feel nothing for the woman, but the man feel deeply in love. And you ask can this man gives you a logic and sicentific explaination, why and how can he loves this woman, he may say this woman is kind, and compassionate, and forgiving and many more, after you hear it, can you love her like he does? may you can, may you cannot. But if you try to use scientific method to prove their love, you may never find out. Why? because the love happens in themselves, something invisible happened in their heart, the prove and evidence made them love each other is real as science and logic, or beyond science and logic.

 

why people believe God? because the relationship with God happens in their heart, you cannot see. It is so real for them that anything oppose it not important. It's like when you say this woman scientifically isn't lovable, but this man won't change his love for her. If you want to find a woman to love, you have to experience that in yourself. certainly science won't take you there, you have to use your heart.

I equate evidence against a God to be evidence against a God. We can explain everything in our universe through natural, scientific processes which we've come to understand and expand upon. The only evidence theists tend to give me in favor of a God is "you can't disprove God, so he could still exist," which is true. You can't disprove God -- but there's enough proof to show that he likely does not beyond a reasonable doubt.

If you could explain everything, then there would be nothing left to discover. What we know is that you as well as the rest of the scientific community don't know.

What is your opinion of things like evolution? The concept of human meaning? Necessary conditions? Intelligent design? To say atheists rely on faith just as much as theists do is totally incorrect. It's like saying I have faith in gravity. We can test gravity. We can examine its effects. A theist has nothing to show for his beliefs -- no explanation beyond a mere feeling.

The scientific method requires some experimental results. How many lifeforms have the scientists created from the base elements? So far, they have infringed on the existing design.

Einstein was brilliant but he was certainly not the type of guy atheists would agree with today.

 

Could you please answer my question about the individual components (evolution/intelligent design/necessary conditions/etc). They're all very good evidence against God and why he is not necessary for the universe and our existence to be as they are.

 

How would you say science explains God and yet remains consistent with the evidence against?

Perhaps evidence against the first book of the bible aka Genesis. This is assuming that the first book was written, and meant to be read as an accurate historical account of the creation of the universe as well as humanity.