Knowing him

Why is it that the OW always think it's the MM that stays for the kids? How do you know that the MM isn't begging to stay and telling his wife that he loves her more than anything in the world, but she lets him stay only because of the kids?

 

How do you know the the wife doesn't want to kick his cheating butt out, but stays married to him for the kids sake? That would make the MM much less of a prize if you knew that he really loves his wife and the wife is the one that stays for the kids.

Well when it comes down to it, no one really knows anything for certain. But if we go round second-guessing and disbelieving everyone we're involved with it's going to be a very troubling life.

You just have to try to be as honest with yourself as possible, look out for the red flags, and take a leap of faith I suppose.

I've spent an AWFUL lot of time not trusting anything my MM says, just because he's lying to her. It truly is tiring, and you know what..? I actually think he's telling me the truth and I'm denying myself a lot of peace and quiet in always questioning myself an him.

Sometimes it's the case, a man does NOT love his wife, and he loves someone else. I think that's true of my situation. Your mileage may vary, as they say. But I think that's what the OP was saying... only YOU can judge your situation, and you may be right, and you may be wrong. We all have to live with it.

Why is it that the OW always think it's the MM that stays for the kids? How do you know that the MM isn't begging to stay and telling his wife that he loves her more than anything in the world, but she lets him stay only because of the kids?

 

How do you know the the wife doesn't want to kick his cheating butt out, but stays married to him for the kids sake? That would make the MM much less of a prize if you knew that he really loves his wife and the wife is the one that stays for the kids.

You know this is true. The friends I have whose h cheated on them, begged them to stay and the wives said they stayed for the kids sake. I believe they also stayed because they still loved their husbands. They had a rough time at first but both friends marriages and families are still in tact.

Cant be a fly on the wall . But close enough.

Just curious what "close enough" is.

I'm not jumping on you or anything. I was in your shoes once upon a time.

I just hope "close enough" doesn't mean you're going by everything he tells you.

Cant be a fly on the wall . But close enough.

I used to be a fly on the wall myself...

I think the fact that he is married is a huge red flag.

Is it hard to grasp the concept that some men care about their kids. That even though they arent happy with their wife. That they want to let go. Let her go find someone that will love her. But what they care about the most is that even though they are suffering its better then having their children suffer.

Is it hard to believe even though DAD found someone that he loves and is happy with . That they have decided to go through the pain of being apart for the better well fair of kids. Until they ( the kids) are ready to better handle the situtation.

Whether you want to believe it or not. There are good fathers out there. And there are mothers out there that will deal with this for the kids.

Just because you might not feel this way. Doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

When someone wants to work something out they work like hell.

When someone is going through the motions they are civil and put up with the act.

When someone wants to work something out they work like hell.

Well said Gingerland!

When someone wants something bad enough, they will do anything to make it work.

Is it so hard to grasp that men can be better fathers when they are HAPPY? Is it so hard to grasp that happier people make for happier kids? Is it so hard to grasp that men and women can be awesome parents with joint custody? Is it so hard to grasp that married men lie and love cake?

Is it so hard to grasp that men can be better fathers when they are HAPPY? Is it so hard to grasp that happier people make for happier kids? Is it so hard to grasp that men and women can be awesome parents with joint custody? Is it so hard to grasp that married men lie and love cake?

All these things are true and the MM knows all of this. That is why the old "I'm staying for the kids only" is bull****.

Is it so hard to grasp that men can be better fathers when they are HAPPY? Is it so hard to grasp that happier people make for happier kids? Is it so hard to grasp that men and women can be awesome parents with joint custody? Is it so hard to grasp that married men lie and love cake?

Hey NF, always a pleasure! You got it. My kids have many friends whose parents are divorced and they are lovely well adjusted kids. As long as the parents let the kids know that they are not to blame and that they are loved by both parents, kids can be just fine. It's up to the parents to make sure they respect the fact that the kids will love both parents and not try to come between the child parent relationship.

Men use the kids as a way to keep the sex coming from both sides. Who is going to have a problem with a man that says he can't leave because it will hurt his kids? Fact is, 100's probably 1000's of people do leave marriages because they are unhappy and in the end, everyone, even the kids do better when both parents are happy.

But Gingerland, everyone wishes you well with your honest MM that is so selfless that he has condemned himself to a life of misery with his wife for the sake of his kids. We all know that he would much rather be with you, but what's a good man to do?

Gingerland,

I don't get what the point of your first post was.

1. Did the MM leave his M for a chance at a R with you?

2. Have you been introduced to ALL his family and friends?

3. If so, was the truth told, or are you hid behind the lie that you

met after the separation?

4. Do you have anything to add beyond stirring the pot here?

I have to ask because you seem to know you were going to create controversy (sp?).

Its foolish to strongly imply that the OW knows the MM better than the woman that shares a bed with him, unless you knew him growing up and you are star-crossed lovers that have gotten a second chance.

You aren't saying anything new. Nothing has been said in your posts that hasn't been refuted here and on other boards that's new info. Just like many of the feelings of the betrayed are not new responses to anyone that's been an OW, nothing most OW say is new to a BW.

Let's not feign innocence when you stated in your opener (that, mind you, you can't edit or delete away now) that you welcomed any to tear your words apart. What are YOU here for? Most of us here have pretty good conversations without the drama.

In short ladies you only know your man. This goes both ways to the wives and girlfriend out there. You and only you know him.

Not me!

As a matter of fact, I'm really surprised to learn that there are folks out there who actually assume they really "know" anyone at all.

Sure, you may have been with someone long enough to be able to finish their sentences. You may have become familiar enough to anticipate their likes and dislikes; or how they might respond to a given situation. You may have become accustom to their habits and idiosyncrasies. Be able to read their body language and the tone of their voice. Know what they're thinking before they even say it.

But, given that people change when we least expect it … and given that people only reveal what they want you to know … can you honestly say with any certainty that you could NOT be fooled??? That you are above being gullible enough to buy a lie? Particularly when you are in denial and need to cling to your "hope" or are just deliberately being duped by someone who is more clever at what they do than you.

Shoot. Most people don't even know themselves well enough to predict with any accuracy what they might do under certain circumstances. Which is why some people now find themselves in situations they never imagined they'd be in.

I don't know about you all, but when it comes to people, I'll never be so smug as to claim I really "know" anyone. I think that's what gets some folks in trouble. Also makes the crow you'll have to eat later a lot more difficult to swallow!

Is it so hard to grasp that men can be better fathers when they are HAPPY? Is it so hard to grasp that happier people make for happier kids? Is it so hard to grasp that men and women can be awesome parents with joint custody? Is it so hard to grasp that married men lie and love cake?

These words by noforgiveness struck a deep chord within me, and I find myself in total agreement. It's not hard to grasp any of the above...but it can be enormously difficult to take the steps necessary to "be awesome parents with joint custody, etc." I don't attempt to speak for all MM's of course, but the decision to either remain married or start divorce proceedings is not one that should be taken lightly. I have physically separated from my wife (although I still see our children everyday and spend most of every weekend with them), have started individual counseling, worked to maintain NC with my OW and started looking for an attorney to discuss the financial ramifications of divorce. The impact caused by infidelity is tremendous, but I think noforgiveness' post illustrates that a peaceful, more productive outcome can be achieved.

As for GingerLand, I don't know if it matters if her post causes controversy. The resulting discussion may be helpful to someone out there that really needs it. It may even help her.

That always cracks me up. Can you imagine thinking you know the mm better than his wife?

How well can you actually know a man when you do not even see how he interacts with his children, his parents, his brothers and sisters etc. How well can you possiby know someone when you are a hidden part of his life that he can not share with his friends? This man has a whole OTHER life besides you gingerland that you only get to peek through the window of his words at.

Oh she'll know him just as soon as he packs up and leaves the wife and kids(if and I mean a big if). Then she'll find out first hand when he gets himself an oow.

GL: if you are happy and fulfilled in your relationship, then don't worry about it!

Who cares what anyone else says? It shouldn't matter a bit so why defend?

Go forth and be happy!!!!

Enigma: I think that your post is very wise...

Is it so hard to grasp that men can be better fathers when they are HAPPY? Is it so hard to grasp that happier people make for happier kids? Is it so hard to grasp that men and women can be awesome parents with joint custody? Is it so hard to grasp that married men lie and love cake?

Well you've managed to convince yourself of that with much soul-searching and counselling..? That doesn't mean it's an easy thing, or even a believable thing, for many men. There are plenty of posts from bonehead about what he felt in 'abandoning' his children when he divorced, and how people reacted to his 'leaving them'. As you say, it's not something to go into lightly. How long does it take a MM to decide to leave..? And what does it all depend on..?

In your case, for example... how did your wife take the fact you wanted a separation..? Is she happy to divorce, or does she not believe in divorce..? Is she likely to be co-operative about the childcare and custody arrangements..? Would you still have been keen to separate if your wife didn't feel the same way..? How long did it take you to decide to separate?

Also, you say you're NC with your OW. Did she begin that or did you..? And for what reason..?

Thanks in advance!

Hi frannie,

I don't visit this site as much as I would like, so thanks for the info about bonehead. I certainly intend to read his posts! As to your questions...

How long does it take a MM to decide to leave..? And what does it all depend on..?

Not being snarky, but you already know that there isn't any single answer for this. The reasons that MM's use to decide when and if to leave are varied and will affect different MM's in any number of ways. Some MM's may never make the decision and will instead allow circumstances to make it for them.

In your case, for example... how did your wife take the fact you wanted a separation..?

Not well at first. But she was also dealing with the enormous pain caused by my infidelity, and so I didn't really give her a choice. I simply started sleeping at the home of a relative soon after my affair was uncovered.

Is she happy to divorce, or does she not believe in divorce..?

My wife has never expressed any happiness about the possibility of our divorcing. But she recognizes that it may be better to be "separate and happy" than to live in an unhappy home. And she's a strong, educated woman who believes in divorce. I say this because she consulted an attorney and had a separation agreement drafted.

Is she likely to be co-operative about the childcare and custody arrangements..?

Completely cooperative, despite the anger and disappointment she's experiencing. I know how badly my wife could hurt me. But we've agreed that even if we start divorce proceedings that we won't allow the major sticking points - support payments, custody, etc. - to poison our ability to raise our 3 kids in as stable an environment as possible. There is no point in trying to destroy each other.

Would you still have been keen to separate if your wife didn't feel the same way..?

I think so. For me, the separation allowed me to confront a host of emotions that I continue to work through.

How long did it take you to decide to separate?

Not long after my wife discovered my affair. I harbored enormous guilt at that point.

Also, you say you're NC with your OW. Did she begin that or did you..? And for what reason..?

The NC is involuntary. The OW is leaving our shared workplace, which presents a great time to try NC. But honestly, the loss of the emotional benefit - the intimacy, the affection - that I received from the OW has me on the verge of depression. So I know NC is going to be tough.

Take care.

Thanks for your answers just 'nother! It's a shame you're not around and posting more to be honest.

Tell me this if you don't mind. If your W hadn't discovered your affair, would you still have been having it... or would you have started 'the leaving conversation' with her..? And what would it have taken for that to happen?

You said something about men leaving it for circumstances to make the decision for them... do you think that's what really happened in your case? I'm saying this because I feel that this is what my MM is waiting for... something to happen.

Can I also ask (sorry!), but your W found out about your affair, yes..? Does she know that you still have an OW (in some way, albeit in NC)... are you still intending to get together with your OW eventually..?

Sorry if there are too many questions, but it's not often someone in your position posts here.

JAMM, did either of you want to try to get to marriage counselling and atleast give it one last shot before separating/divorcing? I just ask this so you BOTH won't look back years from now with regret, wishing you two had tried to work it out.

I can't seem to leave Loveshack alone today; I've been reading posts all morning! So let me try to honestly answer your questions:

If your W hadn't discovered your affair, would you still have been having it... or would you have started 'the leaving conversation' with her..? And what would it have taken for that to happen?

Yes, I would still be having the affair. But, in my opinion, the reality of many affairs (not all, but many) is that they will eventually be discovered by someone. The betrayed spouse, a relative, a neighbor, a co-worker...someone will find out. It is the inevitable outcome of investing so much time with another person. The more time you spend with them, the greater the likelihood that someone will see you together, right?

In fact, my affair continued and actually grew in intensity because I separated from my wife but not the OW. I saw the OW every single day at work. And this experience has taught me that it is nearly impossible to sever the emotional ties that are created between an MM and an OW without a complete and total separation.

As for the 'leaving conversation' as you called it...I didn't plan on it. The communication between my wife and I had deteriorated months - maybe even a year or two - before my affair. We were both unhappy but never took the steps to correct it. We both buried our heads in the sand. This is a prescription for disaster, especially when a third party enters the picture.

You said something about men leaving it for circumstances to make the decision for them... do you think that's what really happened in your case? I'm saying this because I feel that this is what my MM is waiting for... something to happen.

That's right, frannie. And it's pretty amazing because I think that many MM's who walk this painful path would never allow themselves to be stuck in limbo in another setting. For instance, why would a man act decisively at his job or in his profession but not in his personal life? I ask myself this question all the time.

Look at me...if it weren't for the fact that my OW is leaving the place where we both work (Tuesday is her last day) would either I or she have initiated NC? Probably not. In fact, she wants us to remain friends.

I hate to say it, but your MM may also be waiting for something to happen which will take the decision making out of the equation. Is he waiting for his wife to file for divorce? Is he waiting for you to get fed up and ask for NC? Only he knows. Have you ever asked him?

Some people refer to some MM's as "cake eaters," and indeed some of them are. They have no intention of ending either the marriage or the affair and are happy to enjoy both relationships simultaneously. But I also think some (like me) are emotionally weak and/or paralyzed by the fear of the unknown, the fear of losing sound financial footing, the fear that any kids in the picture would be traumatized. Thankfully, my psychologist is helping me through this and I highly recommend therapy with a professional counselor or clergy person.

Can I also ask (sorry!), but your W found out about your affair, yes..? Does she know that you still have an OW (in some way, albeit in NC)...

I don't know if she still knows, or even if she cares. I've been sleeping outside our home for about 8 months now and she hasn't asked me to come back yet. For some women (and men, too) an affair is a sign that the marriage has passed the point of no return. IMO, the marriage may have been over long before the OW or OM became involved.

are you still intending to get together with your OW eventually..?

I have seen other posters get flamed for this, but I'll write it anyway: I care deeply for my OW and I love her and miss her terribly. That is the natural byproduct of my spending so much quality time with her. She became a friend, a recreational companion and just last week, after nearly a year, my lover. This morning I broke down uncontrollably when I thought about the fact that our affair is reaching its conclusion. I dream of being with her, frannie. However...

...conventional wisdom dictates that my relationship with the OW is rooted in fantasy and would not survive the day-to-day challenges most long term relationships face. This may or may not be true. What is true is that it is difficult (to say the least) to figure out what I want to do with my marriage while the OW and I interact. So if we can get through the first few weeks and then months of NC, I should be in a better position to properly evaluate the state of my marriage, such as it is.

Sorry that this post ran a little long.

JAMM, did either of you want to try to get to marriage counselling and atleast give it one last shot before separating/divorcing? I just ask this so you BOTH won't look back years from now with regret, wishing you two had tried to work it out.

I agree with you, and this is a major issue for me right now. My wife and I gave a halfhearted attempt at MC once before the affair and a much better effort last year. Now that my OW and I are fighting to maintain NC (and she will be leaving our workplace soon) I should have a better idea if MC is viable.

It's so sad, really. I still don't know what to do. But I'm trying to figure it out.

I can't seem to leave Loveshack alone today; I've been reading posts all morning!

And soon you'll be addicted like the rest of us. Make sure to go check out all the other sections, the watercooler/confession and rant section, sex section...LOL Then you'll see HOW much time you spend on here! Welcome!

I agree with you, and this is a major issue for me right now. My wife and I gave a halfhearted attempt at MC once before the affair and a much better effort last year. Now that my OW and I are fighting to maintain NC (and she will be leaving our workplace soon) I should have a better idea if MC is viable.

If you love your wife and want a second chance, DO all that you can to make it happen. Start going to therapy on your own, show her that you deserve a chance to make things right, that she CAN trust you again. And, most of all, having the OW out of your life in everyway is a good start. (Make sure your wife knows this too.)

I hate to say it, but your MM may also be waiting for something to happen which will take the decision making out of the equation. Is he waiting for his wife to file for divorce? Is he waiting for you to get fed up and ask for NC? Only he knows. Have you ever asked him?

 

Some people refer to some MM's as "cake eaters," and indeed some of them are. They have no intention of ending either the marriage or the affair and are happy to enjoy both relationships simultaneously. But I also think some (like me) are emotionally weak and/or paralyzed by the fear of the unknown, the fear of losing sound financial footing, the fear that any kids in the picture would be traumatized. Thankfully, my psychologist is helping me through this and I highly recommend therapy with a professional counselor or clergy person.

I don't know whether he is or isn't waiting for something, exactly. His wife knows nothing about me, there is not a HUGE chance of us getting discovered (simply because of where we both live and how we meet). He's bought up the fact that the marriage isn't working a couple of times, but she doesn't agree, and she thinks it's better that they stay together because of the children (from what I can gather, but I don't think he's pressed the issue at all... no real conversation about separation or divorce). I know he's scared of all those things you mention, but mostly just scared of ruining his children's lives by getting a divorce. I know that's scoffed at (read it often enough), but like it or not that's how he feels.

I've been NC with him a couple of times. The idea of never seeing me again isn't something he likes, but it is something he will put up with, I know that. Perversely this means a lot to me... I know how much he loves me, but he's not going to go running out of the door after me if he thinks that in doing so he'll mess up his children's lives. Whether people agree or disagree with him on that doesn't influence him one bit. Going NC is not going to force his hand. And as I say, that just makes me more certain that he's not messing with me when he says: it's because of the kids.

I think that seeing a counsellor is a possible avenue. He did suggest it last year, actually, but we never got that far before I gave up on him and went NC. The thing is, this is killing me and I just can't sit around hoping and being patient for so long. I want to, because I can see how torn up he is. I've been NC, I've tried waiting... and I just don't know what to do.

Before Christmas he said he could see he 'had' to leave... but when it came to it 2 weeks ago, he started the conversation with her... and then backed down, because he couldn't see how it could be 'best for everyone' if he left. That's what he keeps stumbling on... he can't leave if it's not 'best' for his children. So he said sorry to me... he couldn't do it. Well, he's been here all week, we've done a lot of talking... but I said... I can't wait around for six or seven (or more) years... this is my life. And anyway... what if we DO get caught..? What about what THAT will do to the children..? And to everyone..?

We're stuck in this thing and I don't know what to do. My only option is to walk away. But I'm not ready to do that.