How Do You Know if the Ultimatum is Genuine?

We've been married 23 years, we are both in our 50s. My WH had a 10 year EA with a fellow coworker. I found out in July 2008, since then we've had 4 D-Days and I've found 3 secret cell prepaid phones. After the last D-Day and finding the cell phone, I told him I was done with the marriage and he was welcome to move out and go to OW so I can start a happy new life without him.

Well my "its her or me" speech made him pick me. How do I know if its genuine or not? I keep feeling he's only staying for the following reasons:

1) last child won't turn 18 until October;

2) we bowl in the same leagues for years and years

3) he never had his own home and we've been in our house 20 years;

4) I pay all the bills in the house including his personal bills. He just gives me half his paycheck every payday and I take care of the rest;

5) he has bad credit so it would be difficult to get his own apartment;

6) there is a 30 year back child support case that still financially haunts him so he cant have a bank account;

7) I make all his doctor's appointments and make a list of questions for him to ask the doctor;

8) when he's sick I take care of him;

9) I'm patient and kind about his prostate cancer surgery and what he cannot do much anymore;

10) I'm the one who got him the job where I work (where the OW works too);

11) I make more money than he does, if he runs short, he gets some from me;

12) I cook good meals for him and make sure there are leftovers so he can take to work the next day for lunch;

When I asked him why he hurt me like this he said because I didnt listen to him. I also found out that he's one of those guys that needs to be needed. OW is divorced, lives alone and is very needy. I on the otherhand, married him at age 30. I was college educated, working, had my own apartment living in the "big city". I took care of myself and kept doing it after we got married. I never depended on him to do anything, never included him in important decision making topics that concerned our family. I just handled it. Didnt know that I was "cutting off his balls" all these years.

Well are far as listening to him, most days I didnt have the time. I was a little busy working two jobs so our daughter could go to college (she graduated last year!!!). Plus, we had gotten so distant with each other, I really didnt care anymore what he had to say. I had totally lost interest. I was so preoccupied with the two jobs, bowling and the kids, he got lost in the shuffle. By the time D-Day came, the knowledge of it just blew me away!

I offered to step back and let him go so he could be with her but he didnt want to do that. I was already making plans on re-doing the house, buying a new car, getting a puppy - all kinds of stuff once he left. But he stayed. I dont want to feel like he's just staying for the hell of it. Or because he didnt have another choice. Thats gonna piss me off and I'm menopausal right now and I'm no day at the beach. So if he's using me, he's going to regret it.

Now, on the other hand, since I invited him to leave and let him know that I'd be happy to get a divorce, his total attitude toward me has changed or maybe I changed a little too.

When he talks, I listen and ask questions on what he's talking about. Now I can't shut him up! He talks constantly!!!!!

I've let him run the house now. When important decisions have to be we sit down and discuss them. I was surprised at the insight he gives to certain situations. Its like his chest grew wider overnight! He's tinkering around the house, trying to fix everything he sees now. Even the kids go begging to him before they come to me!

So maybe this post is a bit confusing. First I was wondering why he decided to stay and not go to OW, then I telling you what we are doing differently and how it has changed him for the better.

Only thing I havent mentioned is how I feel. I dont' know how I feel. I sorta feel like I'm being used. Like things are better so he may as well stay for the time being. He doesnt feel that he has done anything to apologize for, hasnt shown remorse. But, his actions has been the best its been in the 23 years we've been married. Its like a whole new relationship. Different feelings. Not sure if I still love him, but I like him a whole lot and it grows everyday.

I feel like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop cause right now things are going so well. That in itself is causing a lot of inner stress in me and I don't like it. I want to be happy and feel secure but he ruined that. I know R takes awhile and we have to take baby steps and we may end up with a whole new different marriage than what we had.

But I still feel like if I jump back in with all my heart...

I sorta feel like I'm being used. Like things are better so he may as well stay for the time being. He doesnt feel that he has done anything to apologize for, hasnt shown remorse.

You answered your own question.

He's a user, and he's still using you.

He has no remorse for what he's done, that's all you need to know. Everything he's doing is just manipulation.

His intent is secondary for you. You don't trust him, so you don't trust his intent. You'd already visualized a life without him. It did not shock or scare you so badly to where his staying alleviates the shock or scare value for you.

So he stayed. Big whoop. Of course he stayed; you make his life function as much as a mother would. His decision to stay does nothing to address the void in him to finally be an adult that motivated him to look elsewhere.

For this reason, you have no reason to trust his motives. Until that issue is resolved for him, you will continue to have no reason to trust him. Your marriage functions now for him as a handicap and crutch. So the way things go in your marriage actually serves to exacerbate his problem. Not blaming you, his issue is something he should have ironed out prior to getting married rather than due to something you've done.

And finally, how do you think your marriage can change to motivate him to get over this issue? Can it? Or is that remodeled house, new car, and puppy option too sweet a pill to give up for this manchild you're married to? I can see how it could be.

You know, I knew I was feeling funny about this for a reason. I'm not the only one who sees it. Its like something is just off with us.

Yeah, he's doing everything for me, being so nice and sweet but then he gets quiet, looks sad and sometimes he wants to say something but doesnt. I know something is on his mind but he's too scared to spit it out. I've asked him gently in a non-accusing way if there was something he wanted to say or talk about and he says no.

OW is not a nurturer. She's a "self first" kind of person. I know that from working with her. So WH would never get what I give him so that makes me 2nd best? I dont like that.

So its safe to say that there were 4 d days because they are in love with each other? Got to be some feelings there after having a EA (and possibly PA) for the last 10 years.

Maybe I shouldnt have brought this up. I'm getting these bad feelings in the pit of my stomach again. And then maybe its suppose to happen this way. I'm suppose to bring it up again so we can finish it once and for all.

For a while I thought he stayed cause he realized he would miss me if we broke up. That all these years he got used to the way everything was and I was always included but he can't deal with me not being in his life anymore. Thats what I was thinking for the last few months.

Hi Star,

Your WH is a selfish, manipulative man.

His LTA was selfish and manipulative.

The ways in which he mis-managed the aftermath of d-day(s) was/is selfish.

His lack of ownership, appology, or remorse...all for selfish reasons.

Why would you be surprised if he stayed for selfish reasons as well??

My WH also engaged in a LTA, 10yr EA with 4 of those yrs PA. (BTW, I find it VERY hard to believe that your WH's LTA was NOT a PA?? Especially because they could not stop, hence 4 d-days! I would be SHOCKED if it was not a PA as well!! SHOCKED.)

My WH stayed with me as well. (Although, we now no longer have a M relationship, thank God!)

It took me about a year to figure it out, but he stayed with me for MANY reasons, but NONE of them was ME:

*to preserve his image as a good man & good family man to all his family, friends, neighbors, etc. and avoid criticism/judgement

*to remain in the nice house, rather than live alone in an apt

*to see his kids everyday

*to avoid financial loss

*etc, etc, ect

He opted to stay with ME because I am just part of the package with the kids and other stuff. And, he used me as a prop to avoid negative fallout and consequences for himself. He could not bear for anyone to know the disturbing truth about himself.

He is a VERY selfish man.

LIke I said, it took me awhile to realize this.

He, too, while appologitic...was NOT remorseful...and did nothing of substance to bring me back in from the curb.

So, YES, I think it is very possible that he stayed with you because you serve many purposes for HIM. It was the easiet option for HIM. The path which carried the least negative fallout and consequences for HIM.

People who engage in LTA's are incredibly selfish.

Selfishness is not a characteristic which I believe can be changed in a person. Your WH's choice to stay...was VERY likely driven by selfish reasons.

Just my opinion....

Mad,

You gave some great points and food for thought. I said earlier that the EA was possibly a PA for the first few years but 5 years ago he had prostate cancer surgery so things have slowed down considerably for him now. Maybe that was God's punishment for what he was doing behind my back! Took away is sex life so now I'm stuck with him the way he is now. Yeah Me!

And I really thought he would leave me to be with her but I guess he doesnt want the embarrassment of the way he is now (sexually) so I'm stuck with him. I just wish I can catch him with another secret cell phone.

He has a great life here. I see why he wouldnt want to leave it. I dont know how long I'm going to live like this. He can be so good to me, then I get triggers and get mad all over again about what he has done. The thought of being used bothers me most of all. I could be seeing someone else and happily!

Right now, since he wants to "use" me, I'm using him. If he wants to live here I'm making the most of it for the time being. I may as well sit back and enjoy all the things he does around here and for me. Work his ass like crazy!

The best revenge or punishment or satisfaction I can have towards him is "living well" and I will.

Another question, why would any woman allow themselves to be involved with a married man for 10 years? As the years pass, did it ever dawn on that stupid woman that he's not going anywhere? She's 50, divorced, has a great job making good money and owns her own home. She would be a "catch" for single men. Why would she stifle herself in a relationship with a married man?

Another question, why would any woman allow themselves to be involved with a married man for 10 years?

No cooking, no laundry, no smelly socks, no pee on the lavatory pan, no shaving bristles, no sleeping infront of the TV sunday afternoons....

As the years pass, did it ever dawn on that stupid woman that he's not going anywhere?

She's 50, divorced, has a great job making good money and owns her own home. She would be a "catch" for single men. Why would she stifle herself in a relationship with a married man?

Why would she compromise her independence, money-making ability, solitude and security for some single guy who in the end would probably be selfish and self-interested (you have one of those.... why would she want one....?)

A relationship with what turns out to be Someone Else's Problem.

Why would she not want that?

Another question, why would any woman allow themselves to be involved with a married man for 10 years? As the years pass, did it ever dawn on that stupid woman that he's not going anywhere? She's 50, divorced, has a great job making good money and owns her own home. She would be a "catch" for single men. Why would she stifle herself in a relationship with a married man?

She has a need within her that being chosen by a guy won't fill. She needs more; being chosen OVER someone else.

So you keep him around for now because you can work his back? Your mind on restitution? This is not the thought process of a happy person.

I think I'd choose the remodeled house, new car, and puppy......

I never wanted to be chosen over anyone else. I wanted there to NOT be an anyone else. I stayed basically, because he strung me along with his pretty words and ridiculous whining about how trapped he was. It's embarassing now.

 

Who knows what your H told her.

You also didn't hang around for lengthy amount of time. So the struggle to get chosen over wasn't as appealing to you; it wasn't your primary goal. This woman hung in there for 10 years! Some aspect of him being married appealed to her.

When this first came out, I told him that they had an emotional connection because its been going on so long and of course, he said it wasnt. Well I proved myself right by us having 4 d days and 3 secret prepaid cell phones later.

A funny story:

In January when I found the last cell phone, he was asleep, I took the phone to the neighborhood bar and over long island ice teas, I read a text she sent him. She said "this was sent to me so I'm sending it to you. If a relationship has to be a secret, you shouldnt be in it."

Well, I answered her as if I was my husband. We texted each other for over an hour with her thinking I was him. She really got upset when I told her "my wife told all the coworkers that you and I are messing around". She said "I knew she would do that! She's just hating on me and trying to embarrass me". She wanted to see him in the parking garage the next morning to talk about this some more and I told her okay. Well we didnt park in the parking garage the next morning. I can just see her now sitting in her car waiting on him to pull up and he doesnt. Then I wish I could have heard their phone conversation when she talks about the text messages and he doesnt know a thing about and she realizes it was ME! Priceless!

Um... This is embarassing... I was with him off and on for 10 years over a period of 19.

Point I'm making is if a person stays that long, there's usually an emotional attachment.

Oops! Sorry. This is what I get for not following the OW/OM forum closely!

The EA turning in a PA really hurts me. I had put all this in the back of my mind for a couple of months and was doing well. Then a couple of weeks ago, he said "now don't be mad but OW called me today. she heard about my father's death and called to give her condolences". I thanked him for telling me. I even checked the cell phone but there was not call from her on it. Then I figured she called his office cause he told me on our way home from work.

I just have this feeling that he's using me and I don't like it. Even though for right now, he's being really really great. Its like he's being the perfect man to get my mind off his affair so he can get back into it. I guess that's called "not trusting him".

I'm afraid to trust him. I just can't tell if what he's doing now is real or if he's bullshytting me. I'm afraid to let my emotions show in case he's not for real and I get so confused about it.

Thats why I like to toss out some thoughts to the LS folks to get another take on things. My H thinks I'm making more of this than it really is. He says I'm who he wants, I have him and no one else. But I keep thinking... 10 years is a long time to be with someone else secretly.

Now on the other hand, its possible they could have ended their relationship because she now knows that everybody knows about it. She has practically disappeared from our women's group at work. Never comes around anymore for get togethers, baby showers, bridal showers, you know, the stuff women do at work. When she's in the parking garage and sees someone she knows, she stays in her car till they pass by. I guess she doesnt want anyone confronting her or saying something to her about what she has done. She's one of those women that care about what people think of her so she's made herself unapproachable.

I dont know, maybe I'm making more of this than it is. He slept with her for 10 years, I found out about it, threatened divorce if he didnt stop, he stopped but not happy about it, we are trying to fix the things that was wrong with our marriage but he hasnt ended his addiction to her and I cant trust him.

What the hell do we do????????

23 years is alot to throw away but it seems he decided to do the 10 years ago while choosing to (continue) to cheat on you. 4 D-Days, and he hasn't taken ANY responsibility for his choices, or show real remorse. Instead, he blames you because (boo hoo) he felt neglected and didn't have the balls to talk to you, so he took the easy way out, he cheated. Over and over again.

What a fool. And a baby. He's a man-child!

I usually don't tell people to throw in the towel and divorce, but it seems (from past history) even if he does end the A totally, he'll eventually go back to the OW. Divorce him, pay child support if needed but dont' pay spousal. Screw that. He cheated and betrayed you, yet you'll be paying him? WTF.

Sorry you're hurting and he's done this to you and your family unit.

He does act like a "man child". I feel like his mother telling him who he can play with and who he can't play with. I think he has noticed a little distance I've put between us lately. He never really gave me any good answers to my questions about his affair so I still feel like I know nothing about his "secret life".

He's going to have to answer my questions but I have learned from this that he can lie really well. I'm sure he's lying to OW also. His lies to her is probably what kept her with him all these years. No telling what he has been telling her to make her think its worth it to wait for him.

I remember back in January when I told him to leave and we can go on and get the divorce, he sat around the bedroom like he was getting ready to pack. I guess he thought I was gonna say "no baby don't leave", well I didnt and he eventually got his butt back in the bed like a kid who's mad they cant get their way. During the first d-day, he threatened to leave if I didnt "leave this alone" and I left it alone and shut up. Then I started reading LS and other sites and realized I wasnt alone and this was nothing new and there are thousands of spouses in the same situation I was in. I read and read and read, got plenty of knowledge on affairs, WH, OW all that stuff. I know so much more than I did after D-Day #1. He cant put much over on me anymore. I know all about the blameshifting, the gaslighting, all the stupid reasons he would give for having an A, all the different lies he will tell to keep from giving me the whole story. I feel so empowered since I've been in these sites.

My WH is a selfish man and so is OW. They will reap what they sow. They will be judged by someone higher up than me and they won't like the call. My major attention right now is raising my children into adults. They are practically adults right now (23 and 17). They need me and I will be there for them.

WH feels he should be there because he wasnt there for his other children from his 2 previous marriages. He never raised children from birth to adult and they don't know him very well. He doesnt want that to happen again.

A preacher said one Sunday "If there's no test, there won't be a testimony".

No cooking, no laundry, no smelly socks, no pee on the lavatory pan, no shaving bristles, no sleeping infront of the TV sunday afternoons....

OOOOOOh yeah! She just gets the good bits. The wife can have the other pieces....

 

Why would she compromise her independence, money-making ability, solitude and security for some single guy who in the end would probably be selfish and self-interested (you have one of those.... why would she want one....?)

 

A relationship with what turns out to be Someone Else's Problem.

Why would she not want that?

TaraMaiden,

I think this is a misconception that OW gets the 'good bits' and the W gets 'the other pieces.' I bet most of the time, it’s the other way around.

Sure, my WH and OW had their stolen 'feel good' moments of stroking each other's egos in various ways. They thoroughly enjoyed being ‘soulmates’ and ‘true loves’ for an hour or 2 here and there.

And, yes, I did cook, clean, do wash, etc..but I never minded at all. Was it glamorous? No. But, I was happy to do it. When my kids were born, I left my career to be a SAHM and took full care of them and the home. My WH was the bread-winner. And, this is what we both wanted. And, I wouldn't trade that time with my kids for anything.

Over the course of my WH’s LTA, he came home to ME every day. We had a nice dinner together with our 3 kids. We talked about good stuff and bad. Laughed plenty. Made pop corn and watched our favorite shows and movies together. Had sex. Fell asleep together in the same warm bed. Drank our morning coffee together. We planned and took nice vacations together. He and I even went alone, without kids, to the Swiss Alps for 12 days during his LTA. We spent every moment together on that trip and had a blast! We had a great time on all our vacations, big and small. From local sledding in the neighborhood to skiing in the mountains. We did tons of stuff together....work and play...serious and fun...everything in real life. We went places together cause, of course, we didn’t have to hide: friends homes, walks around the neighborhood, restaurants, concerts, parties, hiking, etc. We made fires in our backyard fire-pit, shared a drink while the kids roasted marshmallows. We spent every holiday together. ‘His’ money (paycheck) was OUR money. He fixed anything that broke around the house. He kept my car running and safe. And, he always washed mine when he washed his. We did all sorts of things together and for each other. It’s an endless list really. And, I was very happy...and thought he was, too.

What did the OW get, sorry this is graphic, but she got to s*ck his d*ck if and when he had time for her. And, SHE spent a lot of time alone, apart from him, waiting for him to call. They spent time together only when it was convenient for HIM. I am sure it was intense and felt good when they were together, focusing only on one another, connecting for that hour or 2. But, where was he the rest of the time, when she was lonely and thinking of him, longing for him? He was at HOME with me.

Of course, all my memories are now tainted since I learned that my WH is messed up and has deep issues which predisposed him to choosing this double life....combined with a selfishness, shallowness, immaturity and entitlement that I never knew he had.

But, to say OW gets the 'good bits' and the W gets the 'other pieces' is simply not often true. Like I said, I bet more often than not....it's the other way around.

Oh Mad, I love what you just said! You made my day. Here I am sitting around, getting angrier and thinking of the times when he wasnt home, saying he was going to "play chess", going to the store and not coming home until hours later, sneaking here and sneaking there. Then I read your post.

You are so right! OW got the tail end of him. And another thing I was thinking. She can't call him and talk to him whenever she wants. He's never available to her when she needs him. During the A and after the 1st D-Day, he would keep his phone on vibrate, check it periodically but rarely left the house. That means he didnt call her back till the next day. Wow, if I was involved with a man for that long, after awhile, that would piss me off. What if it was important? You can't depend on a married man in time of need.

He gives me half his paycheck every payday to add to mine and I take care of our business. He cuts the grass, shovel the snow, fix what needs fixing, takes the kids where they have to go and pick them up, when I was recuperating from knee replacement surgery, he did the grocery shopping and laundry. Since I've recuperated, he is still doing it. He said he doesnt mind and like walking through the stores. I let him with pleasure.

I've been sitting here angry and sad at the same time thinking I'm being used pretty good by him but in reality, OW is the one being used. She gets a few hours of time with him maybe once a week. Yeah she got her A game going (makeup, smelling good, looking good, wearing sexy clothes, house extremely neat) cause she's not seeing him everyday and night. Big deal.

He was to scared to take her out for dinner, shopping, shows for fear someone would see them so all they could do was stay at her house. All they could do was eat, watch tv and have sex. Well, thats what we did but we went to bed together afterwards. We are able to go out in public, they couldnt. If she told anyone of her relationship with him, it was only a few close relatives/friends and thats it. He would never in life take her to any of his friends or family. He would never go out of town with her or stay overnight. He only did that with me.

Thats why I asked the question, why in the world would a OW want to spend 10 years in a relationship with a married man? My WH adamantly swears they were just friends and never had sex. Even if he just went over her house to "play chess", why would she or any single woman want their life tied up like that for that long a period of time. It doesnt make sense.

I thought she did it because of her bad marriage and divorce and she probably swore she'd never marry again or get in another committed relationship and being involved with married man would keep the commitment out of it. She could just have fun when she can and busy herself with other things when he's not there. But still, I would have a problem being with man that long and I cant call him whenever I want or see him when I want to see him. She has to wait until he can "sneak" away to call or come by. What kind of life is that?

Star-

I admit I just skimmed through this thread really quick, but I'm going to go with my gut impression, and please feel free to correct me if I misunderstood anything here.

But after that quick skim-through, I was left with one burning question and observation.

Why did you even attempt to reconcile with him at all? The way you come across about how you feel about him (both pre and post affair) is that you have no personal respect for him, didn't listen to him and don't want to now, and bottom line just don't appear to have any real loving feelings for him. It doesn't sound as though you had them prior to the affair either, given a lot of your word choices and descriptions.

Why did you even give him the 'ultimatum' at all? Why didn't you just end the marriage? Heck, given the way it sounds, why didn't you end the marriage even before the affair occurred?

I don't mean to be harsh, so I aplogize if it comes across that way.

But there just doesn't seem to have been any true reason to have tried reconciliation to begin with...there doesn't seem to have been much of a 'foundation' to rebuild from.

jthorne, No I doubt they've been having sex for the entire 10 years. He's never been a real sexual being anyway. Probably a problem from years before we got married. No, he's a broken person who really should get counseling but he refuses. He has issues pre-marriage that he really needs to get to the bottom of.

I believe they have had sex because he mentioned once that they came close but decided it wasnt a good idea. I think they did it, probably more than once, then decided it wasnt a good idea. That happened to me when I was single and in my 20s. I got involved with a guy, we had sex, wasnt very good, we decided to just be friends. We've been friends now for 30 years and talk to each other every few months.

Whats your take on OW withdrawing from social events?

How Do You Know if the Ultimatum is Genuine?

When a man with a gun showed up at the door with a ream of papers for me. I suggest you get moving today. Good luck

Why did you even attempt to reconcile with him at all? The way you come across about how you feel about him (both pre and post affair) is that you have no personal respect for him, didn't listen to him and don't want to now, and bottom line just don't appear to have any real loving feelings for him. It doesn't sound as though you had them prior to the affair either, given a lot of your word choices and descriptions.

Owl,

Thats a good question and a fair one. You know, I loved my husband so desperately for so many years. As the years have passed my WH and I started to drift away from each other. I really thought it was just our marriage getting on the comfortable side or we could have just been in a rut.

The thought that he was drawing away from me so many years ago because he was having an affair made me sick to my stomach. I think I knew long time ago something was going on - back when my coworkers first mentioned they thought those two were having an affair and I brought it to his attention, he denied it and I let it go. I don't think subconsciously I ever let it go. Thats probably when I stopped listening to him. Over the years, men have approached me wanted to start an affair and I would always say "my husband has never given me a reason to cheat on him so I'm not going to start now". That was my speech, even though deep down I felt it was possible that he was cheating on me. So I've spent at least 10 years waiting for this shoe to drop that dropped on me in July 2008 when I found it what I was afraid of actually was happening.

Now its official, all my worries, gut sick feelings are confirmed.

I have a lot of feelings for my husband. I'm just not sure its love anymore. Now, I dont know what love is and how I'm suppose to feel. All I know is that I'm protecting my heart. He broke us. I'm feeling this way because I'm still angry. I never really showed my anger at him since D-Day #1. Its still in me and I guess I come across as a woman who doesnt give a damn. I went to counseling shortly after D-Day #1. It helped me a little. I was able to sleep through the night without crying during half of it. Its almost like my feelings started dying the day I was told (10 yrs ago) that he was having an affair with her.

Another thing I've realized (I've been reading a lot of posts on LS the last couple of days), There is something definitely broken in WH. I might has misspoke on assuming he was 100% using me. I'm beginning to think its not that he was using me, he was just doing what he wanted to do and was not regarding my feelings at all until he saw he might lose me. He needs counseling to find out what went wrong with him and it was going on before we got married.

You are not coming across harsh at all. I need a head thumping sometime. Sometime I may come across as babbling and my stories can sound hypocritical and weird. Its just me being a heartbroken wife who got cheated on and is just trying so hard to find answers or relief or peace of mind from a great group of strangers.

We used to be so close and technically we still are but its like best friends, not lovers. To untangle our relationship and go our separate ways would hurt so many people. I deserve to be happy and have a satisfying relationship with someone who will reciprocate my feelings.

Right now, for better or for worse, I'm with my husband who has hurt me deeply. I have to learn to deal with that. Its not time to permanently end things. I'll know when its time.

To paraphrase a song by BB King, "You Never Make Your Move Too Soon".

Thanks for the honest and thoughtful answer, Star. And thank you for not taking offense to my question as well.

The bottomline is that you want to give it a chance...I can respect that.

I wish you well. If you have questions or want some specific advice on what I did in my situation (my wife had an EA as well, but much shorter duration than your situation), let me know, and I'll be glad to post.

Good luck to you.

I have learned from this that he can lie really well.

Ick, ick, ick.

You do realize there are other men out there, right? Men who won't lie to your face 10 years running?

And even if there weren't, why would you want to hold onto one who has perfected lying to your face to get what he wants at your expense? So you've been together 23 years, so what? He's lied to you for half that time and has no remorse for cheating on you or lying to you.

Of course he's going to "pick you". If he'd wanted to be with OW, he had 10 years to make that choice. He didn't want that so never chose that. He wanted to be with her and have you taking care of things at home. He wanted both. And right now, the mothering you provide is more important to him than whatever he got from OW. So, he says he's with you.

But a lying snake is a lying snake, and a selfish man is a selfish man. It's up to you whether you want to be with a man who treated you like that.

Oh Mad, I love what you just said! You made my day. Here I am sitting around, getting angrier and thinking of the times when he wasnt home, saying he was going to "play chess", going to the store and not coming home until hours later, sneaking here and sneaking there. Then I read your post.

 

You are so right! OW got the tail end of him. And another thing I was thinking. She can't call him and talk to him whenever she wants. He's never available to her when she needs him. During the A and after the 1st D-Day, he would keep his phone on vibrate, check it periodically but rarely left the house. That means he didnt call her back till the next day. Wow, if I was involved with a man for that long, after awhile, that would piss me off. What if it was important? You can't depend on a married man in time of need.

Sadly, all it takes is for a MM/MW to give even the tiniest bits of time, energy, and attention to an OW/OM for it's effects on the BS to feel like an axe to the heart. In the big picture, OW obviously got scraps compared to me. Sloppy seconds. But, his betrayal broke my heart to pieces and was certainly the most painful experience of my life. And, I have had some intensely painful experiences growing up in a home with a mentally ill mother and brother...and having a child with special needs/multiple diagnoses.

And, it's not me being overly sensitive as I have read accounts of women (plural) who wrote that they had been raped as teenagers and that THAT was nothing compared to their WS's infidelity. Or people who have lost their mom and best friend to cancer, and again, was nothing compared to their WS's betrayal.

So, while I would like to take comfort in knowing that, in reality, I got SO SO MUCH MORE than OW EVER got, the fact is, that I am not comforted by that fact at all. His LTA was a very cruel. Very shallow. Very selfish. Very immature. Very cowarly. Very insensitive, disrespectful, hurtful, uncaring, etc. No matter how you slice it up, it comes up ugly. There's nothing 'positive' I can pull from it.

During the LTA, I never knew or even suspected that my WH was being unfaithful. We had a very full life together...in every way...emotionally and physically. I wasn't 'settling' at that time cause I didn't know he was cheating. But, OW was settling...because she KNEW 'her man' had an other full, real life with another woman. Which, I'm sure OW was told all the ways in which I disappointed him or made him unhappy...how trapped he was...HAD to stay for the kids...and my personal favorite, that we weren't having sex anymore! I guess it's a good sign that I can actually laugh out loud about that now! It's rediculous. But, it was her choice at the time, and for YEARS, to actually believe everything that came out of a dishonest, selfish, manipulative person's mouth.

Anyhow...sorry for the ramblings!

My point is, it IS good to eventually get the correct perspective in that you, Star, likely got WAY WAY WAY more than OW EVER got. If anyone got scraps, she did. You know. You were there....everyday in your M.

And, even IF thier stolen moments/hours were pure 100% bliss, that's all they were....moments...here and there. Big deal. I certainly wouldn't make my life-partner choice be a MM/MW who sees me as an option...with their real life being with their W and kids...ie. LTA. Yet, people do it all the time. Go figure.

OP,

I still wonder, and don't understand, WHY you want to stay with this man?

Forget about if he wants to stay with you or not, why do you want to stay with him?

- he takes a great deal in time and energy

- he gives what back to you? (anything??)

- he claims you are bad for him (prevent him?? from being an adult!?)

if all this is true why don't you do him (and YOURSELF!!) a favor and divorce him! He can be a man at last!

If he discovers that he really loves and needs you he can come back and woo you once he's all grown up with an apartment and (heaven help him) a bank account of his own. Oh yeah, and having to live on his entire salary instead of having half of it to spend however he likes. (jeesh, in my next life can I come back as your spouse please? )

PS I'm kinda disgusted that he hasn't dealt with a child support case in 30 years but that does suggest strongly (not knowing any extenuating circumstances) what type of person he is.