OK So I am an Arse

He called and I picked up, I could lie and say I didn't know it was him, but I did. I just figured best to get it over with.

Well of course he SWEARS he didn't block me on yahoo IM - and he put the blame on me for no communication. I did not back down, and told him that based on the only data points I had, I had assumed that I had been dumped.

Bottom line I stuck to my guns, told him I had said what I needed in a relationship, and after 4.5 years I was not prepared to not get what I need. He has a list of issues that he wants to review with me in person.

I said fine, but reality is two of our friends are gravely ill at the moment, so I committed to help each of them out this weekend (thinking I was single) - so while reviewing his issues was important, I was not sure when we could meet up.

On the one hand I am disappointed that I answered, on the other hand I am proud I didn't back down. So I guess we shall see.

Ha...so he came back and then tried to make it all your fault for not contacting him! He needed an excuse to call you instead of manning up and just addressing the issue.

So now, he's got a list. Get cracking on your list. Put in serious issues and a couple of negotiable throw aways. You know the drill for negotiations. You're in the biz!

You are NOT an arse. You're standing up for yourself. I'm proud of you, I know it must be so difficult....

If he has a "list" and "issues" he wants to discuss with you, he is just looking for more excuses to buy time. The consummate commitment-phobe. After 4.5 yrs you know each other, good and bad. Either he wants a commitment or he doesn't. There is nothing to discuss.

Don't get tangled up in his "list of issues" to discuss. Believe me...he is just buying more time, like a good commitment-phobe does.

If you go discuss his list with him, you are just enabling his behaviour. The only thing he needs to say to you when he phones, is I love you and I don't want to live without you, and you are right, after 4.5 yrs, you deserve a commitment, so let's make one. Anything other than that, is BS.

And in your gut, you know it too.

Thank you everyone - your support means a lot to me. I will not back down, and he knows he is on borrowed time.

Nature - somehow I believe his list is literally a list of things holding HIM back. I said last night that if he feels they are unsurmountable, then we have our answer, and there is no reason to expose himself to me by having me go through it.

Funny because at first I assumed his list would be of issues he has with me - but apparently he was introspective.

We shall see, I'm not holding my breath - but after 4.5 years I can give it this one last try.

A list of issues....?

"A LIST OF ISSUES" - ?!

What are you, Wall-Mart?

My brother was told by his GF that she had a list.

She did.

She'd written it all down,

He said -

"OK. Show me this list then....." and took it from her.

With a pen, he went down crossing them all out......

"your problem..... your problem...... your problem...... smoke and mirrors..... not relevant...... smoke and mirrors...... your problem...... your problem..... your problem...... not relevant.

Right, that's that taken care of.

What else?"

He left her with no place to go, because basically she was projecting and off-loading. Taking no responsibility for herself, but trying to make out that everything happening "behind her eyes" was my brother's fault.

Think about that, when he brings out his list......

He can have a list as long as Santa's delivery schedule, but unless he's prepared to actually DO something about it, it's not worth the reading time, let alone the paper it's written on.

Issues are only issues if they're dealt with. Otherwise, they're just stumbling blocks.

Issues are only issues if they're dealt with. Otherwise, they're just stumbling blocks.

Geish I agree with you 100% and I love that line above - may I quote you?

He can have a list as long as Santa's delivery schedule, but unless he's prepared to actually DO something about it, it's not worth the reading time, let alone the paper it's written on.

Issues are only issues if they're dealt with. Otherwise, they're just stumbling blocks.

Yup, I agree!

I would personally handle it as such. Lay out what you need from him. Then allow him to lay out his list of issues. Be understanding of his issues, in that he's entitled to feel the way he feels. Then state your entitlement to need what you need. If his issues conflict with your needs, then state that the relationship is non-viable with the conflicts.

Stand firm and be fully prepared to walk but in a mature way. Realistically speaking, the two of you are entitled to your opinions and needs.

curious, I beg of you: don't meet with him to discuss his list.

It's TOTALLY smoke and mirrors. All he wants to do is recite a litany of reasons why he can't commit to you. (Now or ever, but undoubtedly he'll spin it as "I can't commit for now"). The only thing that list is full of is bullshxt excuses. He's had 4.5 years. And if you entertain him on this, you are going to get sucked into giving him MORE TIME to get his shxt together.

The only conversation you should entertain with him is one in which he says "hey, I had a mile-long list of problems I had, but you know what? I went to therapy for a year [or whatever else he needed to do to solve them] and I've worked them out. Now: will you marry me?"

Geish I agree with you 100% and I love that line above - may I quote you?

You're more than welcome. Hey, I do it all the time!! :laugh:

Nature - somehow I believe his list is literally a list of things holding HIM back.

Of course it is. You already know that. He's a commitment-phobe. They always have a mile long list of excuses and "serious" reasons why they can't commit right now...but oh please, oh please...just be patient....let him buy some more time...stick around and be strung along for another year while he preaches about HIS issues.....you'll wake up a year from now in the exact same place you are now.

I said last night that if he feels they are unsurmountable, then we have our answer, and there is no reason to expose himself to me by having me go through it.

If they are HIS issues, which you know they are, there is no reason to discuss things with him at this time. You are just so painfully fooling yourself into hoping he will overcome his list of EXCUSES, and one day be the man you hope he will be. Oh please. You are goign to get dragged along even further down this road. I know it. And you know it too.

Funny because at first I assumed his list would be of issues he has with me - but apparently he was introspective.

Not introspective. The commitment-phobe always has a mile long list of EXCUSES why they can't commit. And they always use the "oh, it's me" bs. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about. They come across as so deep and soulful and introspective, and troubled and blah blah blah.

The reality is, they do not want to commit. Get it? We all have troubles. We all have issues. We all have problems. We could all write down a 50 page list of reasons why we shouldn't commit to someone. It's not rocket science.

The bottom line is, commitment is a CHOICE. You make that choice, regardless of your problems, issues, etc. This guy does not want to make that choice. And you are buying into his "buying time' wiht you. How long are you going to do this for? How long are you goign to enable his excuses?

Do not meet with him. Seriously. You are just enabling his lack of commitment. Tell this guy, we all have issues. The bottom line is you do not want to commit and take this relationship to another level, and therefore we cannot go further. I will not sit in a dead end relationship with someone who wants his cake and to eat it too.

You are getting caught up in his manipulations to buy time again.

You are getting caught up in his manipulations to buy time again.

I appreciate your input and the more I reflect on last night's call, the more convinced I become that this is not going to happen. So if I am getting caught up again - it won't be for more than a week. Of that at least i am sure.

I am quite resolute at this point - I'm not going to perpetuate what we've had in the past AND at this point I am pretty freaking angry to have been reduced to an ultimatum.

However I am willing to give it one last (albeit brief) try, afterall I do love him.

I appreciate your input and the more I reflect on last night's call, the more convinced I become that this is not going to happen. So if I am getting caught up again - it won't be for more than a week.

Why even that long....??

I am quite resolute at this point - I'm not going to perpetuate what we've had in the past .....

But - you're about to. Even if it's just for a week......

However I am willing to give it one last (albeit brief) try.....

Apart from the love bit (yeh, yeh....)

......Why?

And therein lies regret. Regret for not listening and regret for not knowing. Not knowing is worse than knowing and walking.

Don't assume. Know so you can give yourself some finality.

Commitment phobia isn't something that people inflict onto the other person to deliberately hurt them. They're just incapable of giving the relationship, their all.

Don't demonize if at all possible. Acknowledge, understand and act in your best interests, which would be to stand firm in your needs.

It's like buying a piece of candy. You want the candy. You have 30 cents. The store-keeper wants 35 cents, whereby 2 cents is his only profit. He cannot and will not lower the price to 30 cents, to meet your needs since there's not only no profit for him, it's at a loss.

A commitment phobic person is the store-keeper. They can only look out for their interests. As you're only looking out for your interests, right now.

This doesn't make either one of you a bad person. Just incompatible needs.

The only miniscule chance in h*ll of getting this guy to "change" and commit, is not to enable his excuses by listening to them. I'd tell him to take his list and shove it up his arse. That he knows what you want and expect, and if he isn't prepared for it, then to go make a list for someone else. You are doing the wrong thing if you go chit chat with this guy.

He needs to feel loss. And to realize that you are not there anymore. Because right now you are still there.

He needs to feel loss. And to realize that you are not there anymore. Because right now you are still there.

Wow that's a really good point. I do not believe he feels I am still there - I think he is scared. He was stunned that I had deleted him from Yahoo (because I believed he had blocked me - still do) - and is confused as to why I won't add him back. I said I'd listen, but as I said to him, I'm not willing to invest again yet.

I don't intend to actually go through his entire list - I suspect we will hit issue #1 (which is likely $'s) and he will say he needs to resolve this on his own, therefore he needs more time - at which point I will say ok fine, conversation over.

I'm not doing this - I'm done

Why even that long....??

 

Because it might take a week for us to actually sit down to talk. I made plans and commitments when I thought he had dumped me

 

But - you're about to. Even if it's just for a week......

 

 

 

Apart from the love bit (yeh, yeh....) -

 

......Why?

Because I've already invested (perhaps wasted) 4.5 years, I'll give the last push. If I didn't think it could work, I choose to believe I would not have stuck it out this long.

And therein lies regret. Regret for not listening and regret for not knowing. Not knowing is worse than knowing and walking.

 

Don't assume. Know so you can give yourself some finality.

 

Commitment phobia isn't something that people inflict onto the other person to deliberately hurt them. They're just incapable of giving the relationship, their all.

 

Don't demonize if at all possible. Acknowledge, understand and act in your best interests, which would be to stand firm in your needs.

 

It's like buying a piece of candy. You want the candy. You have 30 cents. The store-keeper wants 35 cents, whereby 2 cents is his only profit. He cannot and will not lower the price to 30 cents, to meet your needs since there's not only no profit for him, it's at a loss.

 

A commitment phobic person is the store-keeper. They can only look out for their interests. As you're only looking out for your interests, right now.

 

This doesn't make either one of you a bad person. Just incompatible needs.

TBF as usual you have very succinctly said it all. I am stunned at how well you have assessed him.

I'm doing my damndest to remain calm, and hope that will continue through our discussion. He hates when I do that - because he feels it means I am detached, and perhaps I am to some degree.

I am trying very hard not to demonize him/his actions - which I will do if I allow my emotions to show through.

This approach drove him nuts last night when we were on the phone - he was screaming and I was speaking, never raised my voice. I wanted to go through his list right then and there, on the spot - the only point I relented on was agreeing to meet in person.

I am sad because I still believe it is over - but I am feeling far less devastated than last week when I thought he just walked away.

I'll update everyone when I have new news

nyc, if my inability to handle my situation and hindsight, can help ease your situation in a more healthy way, I'm truly glad.

You've got a double-whammy of passive-aggressiveness and commitment phobia. You're like I am, type A. This is reminiscent of my previous experience.

On the otherhand, I've also gone through phases of commitment phobia, situational or otherwise, so in this, I can also relate. He has to learn to ground himself, within himself.

I think there's a way to view relationships as experiences, where you know that it wasn't all horrific, sad or bad. Each experience shapes us to an extent. How much we want to look at experiences in a more negative light, is up to us. How much we allow negative experiences to shape us, is also up to us.

I do truly hope this guy will take a leap of faith and jump into the "fire" with you. Commitment phobia is such a horrible thing. And in the end, it's himself he is hurting. What a terrible thing never to experience true commitment to another human being.

Take the time to read this and really let it sink in. It will help you to see that this is HIS problem and HIS problem alone.

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Commitment phobic men are tortured souls full of FEAR. They are in a constant state of emotional conflict because of their negative irrational beliefs about love, commitment and relationships. In relationships they create great confusion, havoc, pain, and anguish as their behaviours are often insensitive, unpredictable and bizarre. [/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]These types of men can make women who are saints turn into mad women, as they play games with their minds and their hearts. [/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]They are fast to move in on a woman they are attracted to, and they pursue ardently until they win the woman over.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]They are very charming. They say and do all the right things and they can be very romantic. They are very good salesmen to get their own needs met, but in reality they have very little concern for the woman’s feelings, as they are always operating from hidden agendas.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]These men are usually very affectionate and loving. This is because in their mind the relationship is not going to be long term, so they feel free to give affection and love, knowing it won’t be forever.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Commitment phobics play the seduction/rejection game. They can’t make the decision to give totally to the relationship, but they can’t commit to walk away either. They feel trapped by both choices. They feel love for the woman when they don’t see her, but they want to run away also. [/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Commitment phobics love the chase but they don’t want the kill. This may happen after 1 night, 1 week, 1 month, 3 months or more. They may start sabotaging just as they are about to get married, or just before or after there's a decision made to move in together.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]They spin stories to justify their contradictory behaviour, and when the woman threatens to leave the relationship they may make promises to change, but they never do.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]They treat requests for respect as demands and become, angry, obnoxious and rebellious.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]They like to feel in control and create time frames that suit them, often treating the woman like a puppet on a string.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]They don’t like structure, particularly in their personal life.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]When they get the feeling they need to run, their words and actions are full of mixed messages. They play mind games.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]A [COLOR=navy][COLOR=navy]c[/COLOR][/COLOR]ommitment phobic won’t allow the relationship to grow and they have no intentions of ever doing so.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]They can be moody or aloof and blame the woman for why they are acting so bizarrely.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]They can even avoid answering calls completely.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]They lie, or they are evasive and secretive about where they are and what they are doing to create space.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]They hate planning ahead because that means commitments.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]They are often unfaithful in relationships.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]Behavioural inconsistencies are very noticeable with these men when they find themselves getting too close. They become argumentive and abusive, or they create distance. A lot of uncaring sabotage behaviours surface eg. working long hours, taking on extra projects, creating space, not ringing, being late, finding fault with the woman etc[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]These men know on some level that they are deceptive and cruel to women.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]The word “forever” terrifies these men. Love doesn’t scare them; rather it is what love represents to them that scares them. This is due to their negative belief system about love and relationships.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  
• [FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]They usually end up behaving worse and worse, and they sabotage more and more because they want the woman to end the relationship as they feel too anxious and guilty to do so.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]
  

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][COLOR=maroon][COLOR=maroon][FONT=Arial]How you handle a commitment phobic[/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/sIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]1. Don’t rush into bed with these types of men (or any men for that matter), especially the ones who are very charming and pursue ardently, as they are the ones to be most wary of.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]2. Take your time. Listen carefully to a man’s history and leave him as soon as you recognize the behaviours before you get involved and hurt. [/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]3. If he tends to exclude you from other areas of his life the writing is on the wall - beware[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]4. If you get involved before seeing the behaviours, set the pace with this man. Don’t allow him to set the pace.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]5. Act like you don’t need him - stay independent and non-wife like.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]6. Realize your love and attention won’t change him but not needing him and giving him space might (that’s if he isn’t a severe case!)[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]7. Actions speak louder than words. Believe what he does, not what he says.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]8. Don’t expect a close committed relationship – be prepared to take the relationship for what it is. These types of men are best treated as occasional lovers rather than potential partners. Don’t rely on having a relationship with them. If you do you will never feel emotionally safe or satisfied. You will be left confused, bewildered, angry and hurt.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]9. Don’t cut yourself off from dating other men – keep your options open as it is highly likely he is not saving himself for you, nor can he ever give you what you want, need and deserve.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]10. Don’t find excuses for his behaviour.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]11. Evaluate whether he wants to change and whether he is capable of changing - some men will fall into this category but most won’t. Also evaluate how patient you are.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]12. Don’t think it was your fault when a commitment phobic relationship ends but learn form it. Make sure you don’t get involved with one of these types of men again. Watch carefully for the behaviours.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]13. Take care of yourself first as there is a high chance this man won’t be there for you when you really need him, despite his sweet words when he is in the mood.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]14. If you are continually attracting commitment phobics, you will need some coaching to get different results.[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2][FONT=Arial]15. If you are in pain from a commitment phobic relationship you may need some coaching to heal and move forward. [/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

[/FONT][/sIZE][/FONT]

Sorry...that last post is hard to read. Didn't realize it would show up all those weird things with copying and pasting. Anyhow, you can get the jist.

No, please. try again. Seriously.....

preview before you submit. But it looks interesting. But as it stands it is largely illegible.....

If you still have the original text, you can paste it into notepad which removes the font formatting, no need to save, then copy and paste from notepad, to LS.

This will not work if you copy and paste it from your LS post. It has to be the original place you copied it from.

Learn sumpin' noo ev'ry day! Thanku TbF!!

Ye'er welcum Geish! I aims 2 pleaze.