What is MW thinking??

[JuniorK]

Hi everyone, I could really use some help. I've been dating my MW for over a year, its the same story as lots of others - it started casually, unexpectedly developed into love, and before we knew it we were connected so closely and planning a future, she was talking about leaving her H for me. But there have been lots of delays. I am single and have tried to be patient with her, but there was always an excuse why she wasn't ready "quite yet". Money isn't an issue because I have a house and can support us both, we get along with each others families famously, and she really does not seem to be in love with her H. I know they all say that, I know - but from the outside it really doesn't appear that she does, as she is pretty cruel to him and they spend no time together at all. They lead totally separate lives. When I press as to what the delay is, she claims she is just stuck, petrified of change, doesn't know anything other than this marriage (she's been with him since high school).

 

That is not a pretty picture I have painted I know. I have been reading a lot of these posts and I finally gave her the ultimatum. I said I wasn't willing to wait forever, and if she was really having anxiety problems or was so fearful of change, that we could go to therapy together and I would help her through it all. She agreed (sort of) but then backed out at the last minute. She tells me she is monogamous with me, but even if true, how long can that last if she isn't going to leave him? She won't commit to a timeline or even provide me with much reassurance. Anytime I ask what she is thinking about us, she just tells me she already told me the answer and I shouldn't keep asking because it puts pressure on her.

 

I should add that she is incredibly anxious about all kinds of things, and I think she does have some kind of PTSD from some issues in her past. Therapy would be good for her for lots of reasons, not just this situation with me. Because I see it throughout her life, I do believe that it is a significant factor holding her back. Unfortunately it also makes her hard to deal with sometimes. Whenever we have any arguments or problems between us, she is quick to storm off and leave me feeling pretty stranded. I think she has a massive fear of conflict and it comes out as aggression and a "flight" kind of response. I wish she would get some help for that.

 

Anyways, back to the current problem. I gave her the ultimatum, she hasn't met it. I told her if she wants to stay with me, she has to start therapy to fix her issues, and she has to commit to start taking steps to be honest with her H and unwind this situation. Of course (of course!) she hedged. Kind of agreeing, kind of not agreeing, using some delay tactics, its like trying to grab smoke getting an answer out of her. So I said okay then, call me when you make the decision to leave him. Until then, I have to move on.

 

Well she didn't like that at all. Ever since then it has been this flurry of craziness. I am up to all hours of the night with her on text, she is making suicide threats all the time, she texts and calls me constantly and begs me to wait for her, says if only I would stand by her that she would make these changes, that she won't stop fighting for us, that she has never felt this way and can't let go. I know its not likely that she will leave for me now, if she really wanted me this bad she would just leave the guy already. But why won't she let go? She seems so genuine in her upset, and so hurt. Almost like she is addicted to the affair.

 

Has anyone else gone through this?? What did you do and how did you manage it? I know a lot of the advice is "no contact", we might get to that point. More than anything though, I guess I'm trying to figure out her motivation because it seems so confusing to me. If she really wants to stay with the guy, then why fight so hard for me. And if she really wants me so bad, they why stay with the guy. Boggles the mind!! Any thoughts are really appreciated!

[gettinoverit]

Listen to me very very carefully because it's REALLY important:

 

YOU CANNOT FIX HER.

 

Do you understand? You seem to be getting off on being this knight in shining armor for her, saving her and making her well again so you can both live happily ever after. The ONLY person that can fix her is HER, not you. And she will ONLY do that if she wants it badly enough. Yes, she's paralyzed by fear, yada yada. If she really wanted to change, she would. She would take steps to at least start to work on her issues. Instead, she's throwing threats of suicide at you (highly manipulative) and telling you if you would stand by her side she'd make the changes (you HAVE been standing by her side, and she hasn't).

 

If you really want change, your only choice now is to step away from her. She will either step up or she won't. But it must be her choice, her decision. Why in the world her H hasn't left her if she treats him that badly is beyond me, but that's a separate issue.

 

To answer your questions: dysfunction is all she knows. It's her uncomfortable comfort zone. To heal from that would be to have to get real about herself. Far easier to blame the past, trauma, etc etc.Change is scary for anyone. It's excruciating for people with anxiety. How do you manage it? You let go. You let them figure it out. I did it after years of trying to heal someone who didn't really want to be healed. The end result? He killed himself. But that was on him. I don't blame myself because after doing everything I could to prevent it, I had to let him go and make his own choices. Why does she fight so hard for both of you? Because it's what she wants to do. She's comfortable in this dysfunctional status quo, not having to move forwards or make any decisions. She will stick with it forever, and you will still be here 1, 2, 3 years from now asking the same questions. Is that what you want for yourself?

 

Her motivation isn't really relevant now. What is, is YOURS. Why are YOU staying around for all this? Why aren't YOU walking away and telling her to come find you once she's sorted? That's the real questions I would be asking myself.

 

I hope I don't come across as brutal. That's not my intention at all. But I think you need someone with an uninvolved outside perspective to see the wood for the trees here. Hope it helps.

[JuniorK]

Gettinoverit, thank you so much, and your words weren't harsh at all. I am so sorry to hear about your story, that is terrible - and totally agree that you did the right thing by letting go.

 

I needed to hear that, and I DO have a bit of a knight in shining armour complex... although I hadn't thought about it like that until you wrote that. I just want to fix everything for my MM, all the time. She knows it too, and is pulling at my heartstrings now that I've finally left, I think she knows how to get to me. I just look at her like this trapped freaked out little thing, and I want to make it all better.

[DKT3]

I really hope you can distinguish manipulative behavior.

 

This is simple, she isnt leaving, she is most likely not being honest about her situation with her husband.

 

Listen its common for MW to distance themselves from thier husband's when they are having affairs, yet something is still there telling her that she cant leave.

 

Try this, tell her you want to sit down with her and her husband...of course it's a horrible idea to actually do this, but it will give you alot of insight into her true intentions and I'm sure it will cut out those late night texts.

[pepperbird]

op,

as someone who has been married to a man diagnosed with PTSD about a decade ago, I am going to let you in on a little secret that is really sad to say.

 

 

Many people with mental illness become incredibly selfish. I don't know whether that comes from desperation, using up so much emotional energy trying to keep one's head above water or a sense that the world owes them something. Whatever it is, it happens.

 

She can't really see your pain, and even if she does, she will use it for her own ends. That's the selfish part of mental illness. In fact, it can be so detrimental that it can affect the whole family.

 

I will also tell you something it's taken me years to learn. You can't fix this problem for someone else. They have to do that themselves, and the first step is actually wanting help enough to seek it out and take it seriously.

 

I'm a "fixer"by nature and want to help everyone. I though I could help him if I just did/said all the right things, was loving and supportive and there for him if he needed me. Wrong! It didn't work out that way. All that did was make it easier for him to stay right smack where he was. It took hitting rock bottom for him to admit he had a problem and to actually seek help. The paradox of you trying to help her is that you are actually providing a crutch that is keeping her from having to face her issues. You are doing more harm than good.

 

If you truly love her, leave her alone. Let her sort through her issues on her own. It's the most loving gift you could ever give her, and yourself too. Otherwise, like the proverbial drowning man, she'll drag you down too.

[Maddie82]

Married lovers never leave their spouses, no matter how much they promise to. You know nothing about her marriage and husband. You only know the lies she tells you. That's all she's doing, lying. She delays, spouting crap about being 'terrified of change' etc when the only thing she is terrified of is her husband finding out about you. You threatened to move on after pressuring her to leave him, but she's not going to do that so she up'd her game and lays on the self harm crap to keep you invested, and to keep you falling for her lies. For your own sanity, you'd be wise to completely cut this off and walk away. It's too messy and you're never going to get what you want. She's never leaving her marriage.

[mark clemson]

Very manipulative of her to threaten suicide. And of course it's not worth the risk she'll actually do it to hold firm to your ultimatum. So, she's got you stuck.

 

I don't think you're asking the right question in your post title. It may not matter much what she's thinking, because her thought processes are not fully rational right now. So you won't be able to count on her to follow through on (or even own up to) whatever she says right now.

 

But why won't she let go? She seems so genuine in her upset, and so hurt. Almost like she is addicted to the affair.

 

That may well be accurate:

https://www.vox.com/2015/2/12/8025525/love-neuroscience

 

I wonder what it must be like to be married to this person. Not much fun I'd imagine. At any rate, I think the RIGHT question to be asking right now is how can you extricate yourself from this. I'm not sure of the answer, but I think THAT is what you should be figuring out, not how to make her yours.

 

This woman sounds like an absolute trainwreck. You may have strong feelings for her, but I can basically assure you that, should you "win" her and get what you think you want, she will turn your life into a trainwreck too.

 

IMO you should try to let your rational brain do some of the thinking here and find the shortest way out of this.

[anika99]

I was thinking along the same line as Mark. The state of this woman's marriage is probably largely due to her conflict avoidance and inability to handle honest intimacy. She's gone cold on her husband and has shut him out emotionally not because of him but because of her own issues. It must be very lonely for her husband to be in a marriage with this cold distant woman. Trading her husband for you isn't going to fix her problems. She deliberately keeps men at a safe distance to protect herself from authentic intimacy.

 

She puts emotional distance between herself and her husband and physical distance between herself and you. She doesn't want to commit all of herself to anyone because she can't handle it. If you actually got her to live with you she would just go cold on you like she has with her husband. Your emotional closeness to her has been an illusion that requires the safety and secrecy of the affair. She feels emotionally safe in the affair because her marriage protects her and gives her distance from you. She feels safe in her marriage because her affair gives her distance from her husband. See how that works? She doesn't want just one man because that is too real and too emotionally demanding.

[JuniorK]

Wow, thanks so much everyone. It probably sounds crazy but I posted those things about her anxiety just to provide some background - I wasn't really seeing the situation as mental illness, and the fact that so many of you picked up on that is a real eye opener to me.

 

I had an appointment with a therapist scheduled before she had backed out, and I decided to go by myself - to talk about her and how I might manage the situation, and to get some insights into the whole thing. The therapist was so helpful, and it seems there is a consensus that she has a real anxiety disorder of some kind (based on the limited information everyone has of course). The therapist also said that most affairs go on for 2-3 years before people will feel confident enough to leave a marriage for one, and for someone with anxiety disorder she has a lot to work through during that time - that I need to be patient, support her and respect her process.

 

Since then my MW has still been contacting me and is saying this is the wake up call she needed, and she wants to go into therapy to work through these issues and finally leave and lead a more fulfilling life. She contacted the therapist's office and said she is going to book an appointment. She also started keeping a diary of the things to talk to the therapist about, because she knows she gets so tense communicating over stressful topics.

 

So now I feel confused more than ever. It seems like these are real steps she is taking, and she is legitimately wanting change. I do know she is very empty at home. And the therapist seemed to think I needed to give it a bit more time, but I also know that I really want to see the positive in all of this. Does anyone think these steps are worth giving it more time to see where it goes? I feel so badly for her. and yes I know she can be difficult and I don't want her to turn my life into a trainwreck either. I feel like I just can't see things clearly.

[stillafool]

If you want to force her choice, tell her husband. She will then have to make the choice and then you will either get her or you will know she was lying all along and you can move on with your life. Do it. He deserves to know.

[mark clemson]

If you live in the US, talk to a family attorney before telling her husband. Many give free 1/2 hour consultations. The reason is to ensure you don't live in one of the few states that have "alienation of affection" laws. These laws allow the betrayed spouse to sue an affair partner (that would be you) and there are sometimes substantial judgements. Obviously that is is also a good reason to stop the affair.

 

You should remember that, despite your feelings, you are undermining her marriage, which is also his marriage. The right thing to do, most certainly, is to stop completely. Her marriage may be awful, but it should stand or fall on it's own accord without your involvement. The therapy should be for her, not for the two of you as a couple.

 

I also stand by what I said earlier about her being a trainwreck. Unfortunately, your emotions are clouding your good judgement in all of this.

[Maddie82]

So now I feel confused more than ever. It seems like these are real steps she is taking, and she is legitimately wanting change. I do know she is very empty at home. And the therapist seemed to think I needed to give it a bit more time, but I also know that I really want to see the positive in all of this. Does anyone think these steps are worth giving it more time to see where it goes? I feel so badly for her. and yes I know she can be difficult and I don't want her to turn my life into a trainwreck either. I feel like I just can't see things clearly.

 

There's a reason you can't see clearly and that is because you don't trust her. I don't blame you. After her extreme bahavior I wouldn't trust her either. Right now she is saying and doing everything you want to keep you invested.. Stop being weak and stop feeling bad for her because that is what she wants. She's a very high profile risk.

[pepperbird]

Look, even if she does have issues with anxiety, that doesn't excuse her actions. Anxiety DOES NOT keep you from acting with a moral fiber. It does not excuse you treating people like crap and it certainly does not excuse an affair.

 

"Respect her process"?

 

This woman is showing you who she is. She is not the way she is because of her husband. She is not that way because of anyone else but herself. She acts the way she does for internal reasons, and they are "portable". By this I mean that whatever her issues are within her marriage will follow her along to her next relationship.

 

Right now, she's positioned you as her "knight in shining armor", which can be a very heady experience. The problem is that, even if her marriage were to end tomorrow and went running to you, her problems would follow. In a short period of time, you'd be the terrible guy at home who she has no choice to cheat on:rolleyes:

 

In your shoes, I would take a break from her for a couple of weeks. If you can, get away completely. Take a trip or find another way to get your own space with no contact with her at all. If you feel you need to, tell her you're going to be away for a little while, and really do your best to stick tot he "no contact" rule.

 

Use this time to try and clear your mind. Ask yourself if you really want to spend the rest of your life with someone you can't really ever trust? Ask yourself what she has to offer you, and also do some soul searching to figure out if you really love "her", or you love being the "hero" in your situation. The thing is that gets old fast, and when it does and you're left with just her, will your relationship really have any substance?

 

 

As for the threats of self harm mentioned above? I'm surprised your counselor never told you that's a manipulation/ attention grabbing tactic. I experienced that as well, but from my husband's ex-ow. She kept telling me she was going to hurt herself and it would all be my fault. I finally had enough. I took some screenshots of he threats, called the MP's, told them what she'd been threatening and let them deal with her.

 

She was never serious. Her actions were meant to hurt me, and even more importantly, they were also a call for help from someone who I don't think had ever learned decent coping skills.

 

If you do decide the relationship is worth it, take some time to consider what parameters you will set for what you will and will not accept from her. How long are you willing to wait for her to leave her spouse? Would you accept her seeing another guy as well as you?

 

 

 

You have the right to decide what you will and won't accept from her, and just because the relationship is an affair, that doesn't mean you have to accept being treated badly. Set your parameters and whatever non-negotiables you may have ( might I suggest counseling for the two of you as one of these). Take you time and write them all out and then go over the list with her. Stand up for yourself. You are worth it.

[mark clemson]

By the way, please don't interpret my post above as any kind of recommendation to tell the husband. I'm a "case-by-case" thinker on these issues of revealing the affair. In your particular situation, since the WW is actually threatening suicide, I'm most definitely not advising you to tell the husband and potentially make things even worse - was just giving follow up information on stillafool's post.

 

My advice is to just get out of the situation as soon as you can and let them sort their marriage out. You are, IMO, also making things worse by participating in the affair. Pretty sure this potentially suicidal person is outside your (and most people's) "pay grade" unless you have specialist skills.

[Amethyst68]

Question - was this her therapist or yours? The advice you got is nonsense, are you supposed to hang about for another 2yrs, waiting to see what choice she might make? I hope you can remove yourself from the situation to see what bad advice this is for you and your mental health. Find a new therapist to talk to where you are the priority not her.

 

As for the suicide manipulation, the next time she threatens suicide call the police! To be harsh it's not your problem and it is a clear manipulation tactic.

[anika99]

I'm also surprised at several things you say your therapist said. The first being that it takes 2-3 years of having an affair for the married person to leave their marriage. I don't know about that. I haven't looked up statistics or anything but that tidbit of info sure doesn't ring true around here. Whenever I've read about a MW or MM leaving their marriage for an affair partner it always seems to be within the first year of the affair, sometimes within months.

 

Secondly, as a previous poster mentioned, there are much bigger issues going on here. The manipulation through threats of self harm is a huge problem. Also self harming or threats of self harming, cheating, abandonment issues, lying, extreme anxiety, conflict avoidance are also symptoms of a personality disorder. Now I'm not saying this MW has a personality disorder but she is certainly throwing out some flags for one. She also has a child that is caught in the middle of her mother's high drama. I'm shocked that your therapists wouldn't be more concerned about those things.

 

What is most concerning though is that your therapist seems to be looking out for your MW over looking out for you. This toxic painful situation is what drove you to therapy in the first place and now the therapist is telling you that you should remain in this toxic situation so that you can support the MW? What the hell kind of therapist gives that kind os advice? Is she working for you or is she working for your MW?

 

Lastly it sounds like your MW called your therapist for IC. Since the therapist is already working with you, taking your MW on as a patient sounds like a conflict of interest to me.

[Amethyst68]

Whenever I've read about a MW or MM leaving their marriage for an affair partner it always seems to be within the first year of the affair, sometimes within months..

 

Maybe she's talking about the ones who say they leave but are really thrown out after their BS finds out about the 3yr affair.

[JuniorK]

Boy am I ever thankful I found this board! To see all this through an outside perspective (so many of them!) is so helpful, I cant even tell you. Thank you all so much.

 

As far as telling her husband, honestly I have so much drama with her already and she's just so unstable, even just the thought of the fallout from that freaks me right out.

 

Pepperbird, re your comment "Anxiety DOES NOT keep you from acting with a moral fiber. It does not excuse you treating people like crap and it certainly does not excuse an affair." That really resonated with me. You're so right, there is a very selfish side to these issues she suffers, and she uses them as an excuse for everything. I feel like Im always picking up the pieces and holding her up, yet somehow its never enough. Im even the one paying for the therapy she wants to go to now. ? And the affair and lying are inexcusable by any standards. Mark Clemson is right, I know the proper thing to do is just to end it.

 

I'm starting to think she's kept everything so frantic that maybe I haven't had a real chance to consider whether a life with her would really suit me. I guess I get so caught up in it all, and I am a fixer too and feel like I love her. She uses that against me I think.

 

And in answer to your questions about the therapist, she is brand new, so not previously connected to either of us. In fairness to the therapist, the advice was more balanced than I now see I wrote in my post above. She also said she didnt think I was cut out for an affair, that I want to live a more integrated life and my MW is more easily able to compartmentalize hers (which isnt healthy). She also said that she felt I was maybe working so hard to "clean it up" because Im so uncomfortable with the situation. All really true.

 

I just wish I didnt feel so responsible for her. I have agreed to pay for one therapy session for her and she is going tomorrow. I'm starting to change my thinking, that maybe instead of bringing us together the therapist can help me untangle from her without all the threats etc. I think I will try to step back again after tomorrow and see how that goes. I know I want so much more than this from someone who's supposed to love me Thanks so much again everyone.

[Maddie82]

I just wish I didnt feel so responsible for her. I have agreed to pay for one therapy session for her and she is going tomorrow. I'm starting to change my thinking, that maybe instead of bringing us together the therapist can help me untangle from her without all the threats etc. I think I will try to step back again after tomorrow and see how that goes.

 

You're not responsible for her lovely. She's responsible for herself. Sadly one session of therapy (which you are not obligated to pay for) is not going to make it all better. I'm glad you are changing your way of thinking because i can see that all this has been getting you down and this will inevitably throw you into depression. You don't need this. Definitely step back. Breathe. Get your life back because she is bringing nothing but complications.

[LIRR88]

She sounds like a hot mess. And for all you know she could be lying to you about her relationship with her husband, time and time again that’s what cheaters do. If she was so miserable and they don’t even have kids, she wouldn’t be struggling this much to leave him. You don’t even know if her suicide threats are real or she’s trying to manipulate you. Next time she pulls that one just tell her that you’re going to inform her husband and call the cops because you’re afraid for her safety.

[elaine567]

I know I want so much more than this from someone who's supposed to love me

 

Ah, yes the old "love" word that keeps OWs and OMs coming back for more and more punishment... at the hands of the married person.

They become stuck in the affair. "My MM/MW makes me miserable regularly but he/she loves me, so I cannot leave..."

 

Cheating people you will find can truly love strongly and deeply, but the person they love strongly and deeply is not you. They truly love only themselves.

They will do what is best for themselves in the moment, if that includes you then great, but if it doesn't include you then you are in for a world of hurt until they pick you up again when it suits them to.

[carhill]

Has anyone else gone through this?? What did you do and how did you manage it? I know a lot of the advice is "no contact", we might get to that point.

Long ago but sending evidence of the A to her H made going NC superfluous. Boom, done.

More than anything though, I guess I'm trying to figure out her motivation because it seems so confusing to me. If she really wants to stay with the guy, then why fight so hard for me.

Fuggetabout figuring women out. Do what works for you in life and if one hangs around and you enjoy her, cool. Leave the psychological stuff for brain professionals.

And if she really wants me so bad, they why stay with the guy. Boggles the mind!! Any thoughts are really appreciated!

She wants you to want her. Big difference. She likes where she's at. It's her home. It's love to her. If you go NC today, the magic of the golden vagina will have another KISA replacing you. Who knows one might already have since you've been pushing back of late. Your hole is going dry so she'll pick the rig up and move to another hole. It's not bad just how some people are. Many IME. IDK maybe they're the smart ones. Selfish seems to work these days.

[Maddie82]

Bottom line is, she is not leaving her husband and she fights for you because she wants you both. She wants the best of both worlds and invented all this psychological crap as a way of getting out of making decisions that she does not want to make. She's not giving up her husband, so what do you want to do OP? Are you happy to be her part time lover while you pay for her therapy then she goes home to her husband?

[JuniorK]

Thank you guys. With all of your support and kind words, I did it. Her therapy appointment brought out that she wasn't ready to leave her H "just yet" and didn't know if she could really stay committed to me while she figured it out, and that was the right opportunity for me so as hard as it was, I took it. I told her if she didnt know what she wanted that I had to let her go while she figured it out on her own. I see it will be months and months of expensive therapy and she wants me to stand by and wait and pay for it all, and youre all right - I just need to take care of myself. And her situation has to stand or fall on its own. I feel sad but not as bad as I thought I would, I think because of all you all wrote. Thanks again.

[stillafool]

Does she work? If so won't her insurance pay for her sessions? If not, let her husband's insurance pay for her therapy since he's the fool who will end up with her anyway.