Is it the Marriage or WS? Push or Pull?

[Betrayed&Stayed]

I'll start this thread to avoid threadjacking on the other thread about the AP getting treated better than the BS.

 

I actually argued with my IC over this concept for a long time. A really long time. Because if it had something to do with the marriage, then it was something I could fix. I could exert control. I could do it.

That is just naive thinking. I used to think that if I treated everyone else with respect, then they would treat me with respect in return. It doesn't always work out that way. I can't "control" or "fix" my wife, and vice versa.

 

 

The problem is I still regard it as a problem with the marriage too, not just the person. Like I have said, can you deny that your husband/wife is supposed to be your partner? That you are supposed to be a team? Just like any team, when a member is having trouble it's up to the rest of the team to try to pick them up again. For better or worse applies to both people. If you can't maintain your vows because you have some personal issue, I feel that also reflects on the marriage. Since..you are supposed to be able to do that, in a good marriage you are supposed to be faithful no matter WHAT happens.

Again, you are being naive. Yes, it is SUPPOSE to work that way in a marriage. Keywords = "suppose to". That is one thing that bothered me about my wife's affair: why could she not talk to me about certain things? We were SUPPOSED to be a team. But when things go screwy, some people clam up. My wife didn't have the self-awareness or the ability to communicate complex relational feelings to me at that time. She was also conflict-avoidant to an unhealthy level. Also, I believe that a part of her didn't want to. A part of her enjoyed this new friendship/crush, and she wanted to feed it.

 

Sometimes the marriage is part of the problem. Sometimes it is the person. IME, the problems were not in the marriage, but with my wife. This is what she wrote me about her affair:

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

We had been married for just over two years. My husband and I considered each other best friends, we were very compatible, and we were in love. Unlike other couples we knew, the two of us rarely fought. At times we chose to disagree, but together we did discuss our differences. I have always thought we communicated well. Truly everything seemed fine.

 

I began a new job working in ---- and my husband continued to travel with his company. There had been somewhat of a geographical distance between us since our engagement but we were comfortable with the space that had been created by our jobs. For many years, it enabled us to really appreciate the quality time we spent together. We would spend so many weekends hiking, exercising at the gym, dining out in favorite restaurants, going to the movies, and having great talks. And within that quality time there was a passion between us that has always been very strong. We both felt like we were still on the honeymoon.

 

The two of us had been living in our first home for almost one year. We were very excited about how life was going for the both of us. It seemed like we had the perfect life together. But that is when it all began......

 

But what I did not articulate to myself was that I began to develop a crush on my new coworker. With deep regret I failed to see this as a warning. What I instead found myself doing on a subconscious level was comparing this individual to my husband. It wasn’t long before I began focusing on my husband’s faults instead of focusing on my commitment to him. I began to question our marriage, where it was and where it was going...

 

I began to see my husband differently....

 

My intentions were to have a platonic relationship with my co-worker. We had so many things in common and conversed so easily. I enjoyed his company and his friendship....

 

I began to ponder divorce. What would my life be like to be single again? But as the questions began to fill my mind, I could not come up with a solid reason for divorce.....

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Her timeline and story continues. She ends the affair out of guilt/shame and rug sweeps it for 8 years. (Conflict-avoidant behavior again.) Given what I remember from that time period and what she has written, does it sound like the marriage was so bad that it caused her to have an affair? Or does it sound like she had personal issues that caused her to be unfaithful? I take the stance that her affair was 100% on her, not our marriage. She says herself in the excerpts that we had a good marriage.

 

I flat out asked her if I pushed her into an affair, or did she get pulled into it. She admitted that she was pulled in. All affairs have some combination of Push/Pull. What was your experience? Mine was mostly pull.

 

A good friend of mine who's wife cheated on him would say "pull". (His story is not too different than mine, but more cliche and he divorced her.) My other friend who left his wife (and kids) for his secretary would probably answer both equally. However, he is narcissistic and must control every relationship. (He's more of an ex-friend now)

[fellini]

It took my WS about a year to fully comprehend how the affair got underway, why it got under way, and why she allowed herself to continue in it.

 

Essentially, it began when an attractive, well like (especially by women faculty members) single divorced all round nice guy vice dean walked up behind her while she was taking water at a fountain and gave her this completely unsolicited hug. He probably came into contact with her breasts.

 

She didn't know who it was, she thought it was a good friend. She turned and was shocked to see it was this guy she barely knew, but it was too late, she had already received the chemical rush from a hug, associating it with great feelings, and from that day on she never saw him the same way. From that day on she began a one year pursuit of him. She was so hooked by that one hug she never mentioned it to me. She hid the way this man was entering her life even before he knew she was pursuing him. He came on board quickly, and eventually they went PA at his request. No hesitation from her though.

 

She allowed herself to believe she had fallen in love with him, and he had already declared he loved her. She was planning on leaving the marriage in order to be with him if they got caught.

 

When DDay arrived, she panicked and the PULL of 17 years of marriage and a 9 year old daughter replaced the PULL of the new relationship. There was never any push, although she tried to say there was. Like in your post, essentially the feelings moving from the marriage to the AP made it look like the marriage was dying, but it was simply one partner withdrawing from the joint bank account and reinvesting it in another place.

Edited May 20, 2014 by fellini

[Fluttershy]

My H wasn't bored. He says we had a good marriage and then he was like wtf have I done? Why? And so he looked at the marriage and he was honest with himself and saw that we had a pretty great marriage. Not perfect as those don't exsist because no perfect person exsists. But he ha started to feel confused and distant inside DURING His affair because of guilt and confusion. Why did he cheat? He looked for something to blame in his childhood next and saw he had no FOO issues. He had always abhorred deciet and even casual sex.

 

It came down to poor boundaries. Some may say that it has to be more. But he was a slippery slope buy. So if you call poor boundaries a bad marriage then I guess that is true. But I don't mean obvious poor boundaries but actually boundaries most people find acceptable. And then they slowly got pushed. Andot felt good.

[Waverly]

My marriage had some pretty serious issues before my affair, but not serious enough that I ever contemplated divorce. When I started talking to my xAP (talking in an EA way, not just as friends anymore), he was the one pushing for it to become more. But I certainly responded.

 

In other words, I don't really know what the right answer would be to your question. Pushed or pulled. I don't know. Neither, really. I walked into it completely of my own accord.

[dichotomy]

First marriage WW (PA) I would say push, grab. She was the aggressor and the OM sap - a depressed MM, took her interest like a drug. An exit affair for her to simply get out. I can't say I really pushed her on purpose, but looking back we were going in different directions in life and she did not want to be married or wife or a mom to any man. She was still a cold heartless B - but I am willing to see her side of it.

 

Second Marriage WW (EA) it was 100% pull, left over strings and glue from her old life she could or would not cut ...as she started with me. There were multiple old lovers including MM's and others she just could not put behind her - until dDay and then she had too stop being pulled - to keep me.

[Clay]

In other words, I don't really know what the right answer would be to your question. Pushed or pulled. I don't know. Neither, really. I walked into it completely of my own accord.

 

This is really the truth who really cares if the AP was pushing someone into or the SO was the one doing the pushing in the end the SO is the one that owes the respect to be honest to the BS. WS is the one solely to blame for the cheating. There is not doubt the BS has some responsibility for other issues in the relationship but cheating really has nothing to do with it. Its completely separate and there is no way to justify it.

 

Its horrible to see people go through this and think back to our own experiences but its easy for people to cheat these days. Morals and values have taken a back seat in relationships.

 

I personally don't recommend anyone ever stay with a cheater. Even if they don't cheat again they will always have that way of thinking that brings everything else into question. If the can justify hurting the people they say they love the most imagine what else they are capable of.

 

Trust is completely gone it is something you will never fully get back. There will always be that doubt.

 

I think people are just afraid to be alone or let go of some kind of a dream.

 

I know I was that person for a long time before I finally could see clearly. When that day happened for me I changed.

 

Clay

[janedoe67]

I don't know the answer to the push or pull.

 

I do know that I am 100% responsible for my choice to have an affair.

 

I also know that my H was absolutely responsible for his choice to refuse to touch me or work on our marriage no matter what I did or said.

 

However, the latter does NOT justify the former. And neither does the former cancel out the latter.

 

They are both true.

 

Period.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

I also know that my H was absolutely responsible for his choice to refuse to touch me or work on our marriage no matter what I did or said.

In my book this would qualify as a Push. I'm not saying it justifies an A, but it is a factor. Just like my wife's lack of boundaries doesn't justify her affair, but it was clearly a factor to the Pull of the affair. Thanks for sharing.

[drifter777]

It took my WS about a year to fully comprehend how the affair got underway, why it got under way, and why she allowed herself to continue in it.

 

Essentially, it began when an attractive, well like (especially by women faculty members) single divorced all round nice guy vice dean walked up behind her while she was taking water at a fountain and gave her this completely unsolicited hug. He probably came into contact with her breasts.

 

She didn't know who it was, she thought it was a good friend. She turned and was shocked to see it was this guy she barely knew, but it was too late, she had already received the chemical rush from a hug, associating it with great feelings, and from that day on she never saw him the same way. From that day on she began a one year pursuit of him. She was so hooked by that one hug she never mentioned it to me. She hid the way this man was entering her life even before he knew she was pursuing him. He came on board quickly, and eventually they went PA at his request. No hesitation from her though.

 

She allowed herself to believe she had fallen in love with him, and he had already declared he loved her. She was planning on leaving the marriage in order to be with him if they got caught.

 

When DDay arrived, she panicked and the PULL of 17 years of marriage and a 9 year old daughter replaced the PULL of the new relationship. There was never any push, although she tried to say there was. Like in your post, essentially the feelings moving from the marriage to the AP made it look like the marriage was dying, but it was simply one partner withdrawing from the joint bank account and reinvesting it in another place.

This "the hug hooked her" thing seems beyond ridicules to me. It's more like something you've told yourself to - at least partially - excuse her cheating. I would guess that most women who got a big "breast-squeezing" hug from a strange man would be furious - not horny. I guess it doesn't matter for you but I can't resist calling "bullsh*t on this.

[harrybrown]

She always treats every one else so nice and kind.

 

But around me, she can be herself and treat me like shyt.

 

So of course the AP was treated so much better.

 

Seems like everybody else needs to see her in a positive safe face way.

 

But out of the public view, treat your spouse like trash.

[fellini]

This "the hug hooked her" thing seems beyond ridicules to me. It's more like something you've told yourself to - at least partially - excuse her cheating. I would guess that most women who got a big "breast-squeezing" hug from a strange man would be furious - not horny. I guess it doesn't matter for you but I can't resist calling "bullsh*t on this.

 

Well obviously your experiences and mine are distinct. I know from personal experience that a simple caress across the hand from someone you didn't think about can cause a sensation that changes everything from that moment on. I know that because I have experienced it both ways 3 or 4 times.

 

And I know that this man's embraces were the reason she chose him. Maybe it's a woman thing, I don't know. Hugs don't do that for me, they obviously did for her. I have at least 10 emails during their EA in which she speaks of his hugs, needing them, how his not being at an activity they shared meant he owed her one... and their first move to a PA was a behind closed doors massive hug in her office before being separated for Easter break. So you can call things bull if you like, but you don't have access to my story, and what I have gathered from her in one year. The guy HUGS women. That's what he does. She insists that the hugs he gave her were more intense. And yes, she should have told him from day ONE that he had no right to touch her like that, but he did, and his response would have been, "I hug all my friends that way".

 

It's also possible you dont live in a culture where men and women hug and kiss each other pretty much every day they great each other. Men kiss men in this culture as well. It's how it is. Doesn't make it BS.

[snappytomcat]

Well obviously your experiences and mine are distinct. I know from personal experience that a simple caress across the hand from someone you didn't think about can cause a sensation that changes everything from that moment on. I know that because I have experienced it both ways 3 or 4 times.

 

And I know that this man's embraces were the reason she chose him. Maybe it's a woman thing, I don't know. Hugs don't do that for me, they obviously did for her. I have at least 10 emails during their EA in which she speaks of his hugs, needing them, how his not being at an activity they shared meant he owed her one... and their first move to a PA was a behind closed doors massive hug in her office before being separated for Easter break. So you can call things bull if you like, but you don't have access to my story, and what I have gathered from her in one year. The guy HUGS women. That's what he does. She insists that the hugs he gave her were more intense. And yes, she should have told him from day ONE that he had no right to touch her like that, but he did, and his response would have been, "I hug all my friends that way".

 

It's also possible you dont live in a culture where men and women hug and kiss each other pretty much every day they great each other. Men kiss men in this culture as well. It's how it is. Doesn't make it BS.

 

a hug wouldn't do that for me,i wouldn't risk everything just for a hug,i give people hugs daily,doesnt mean I want to sleep with them,nor do I get a sexual sensation from hugging someone other than my husband

[fellini]

a hug wouldn't do that for me,i wouldn't risk everything just for a hug,i give people hugs daily,doesnt mean I want to sleep with them,nor do I get a sexual sensation from hugging someone other than my husband

 

I didnt say she risked anything for a hug. She noted how it felt, decided to keep the event from me, and hence, began her betrayal of our marriage. It was her first crossing of a boundary. I already explained that she spent many many months silently inserting herself into his group of shared friends and of course all kinds of other activities occurred (lunches, a field trip together where they spent the entire time in each other's company, playing a sport together under the premise of a faculty activity.. the usual. So did she risk her marriage for a hug, no, she risked her marriage ACTING upon the FEELINGS she got from that initial intimate experience.

[veritas lux mea]

Chemistry can be a powerful thing. It is silly really. But my case it was pull. That was the point I was trying to make on the other thread.

[tornapart2002]

I just want to say that I understand your thinking here. I feel bad that you have this view about every cheater, but, yet, I totally get it. my husband is in counseling. My husband is seeking help for problems that started with abuse from his mother years ago and also to find out more about what caused him to risk our marriage and our family.

 

He is fighting to find out what else he could have been capable of if I hadn't stopped it all and he wants to break the cycle of pain and hurt tht started within his family. It's hard for me not to agree with your sentiments because I do have doubts that people can be redeemed and changed. Yet, I have seen it happen and I'm ready togive him at least once chance. On the trust issue, I do believe you are right....I may always have that doubt, matter how hard he tries to prove to me he can be trusted (and he is trying very, very hard).

 

The main statement of yours that I absolutely agree with is "morals and values have taken a backseat in relationships." You are so right. It is so true and I hope my husband and I can break that cycle in our family. If he can't, I will.

 

This is really the truth who really cares if the AP was pushing someone into or the SO was the one doing the pushing in the end the SO is the one that owes the respect to be honest to the BS. WS is the one solely to blame for the cheating. There is not doubt the BS has some responsibility for other issues in the relationship but cheating really has nothing to do with it. Its completely separate and there is no way to justify it.

 

Its horrible to see people go through this and think back to our own experiences but its easy for people to cheat these days. Morals and values have taken a back seat in relationships.

 

I personally don't recommend anyone ever stay with a cheater. Even if they don't cheat again they will always have that way of thinking that brings everything else into question. If the can justify hurting the people they say they love the most imagine what else they are capable of.

 

Trust is completely gone it is something you will never fully get back. There will always be that doubt.

 

I think people are just afraid to be alone or let go of some kind of a dream.

I know I was that person for a long time before I finally could see clearly. When that day happened for me I changed.

 

Clay

[fellini]

Its horrible to see people go through this and think back to our own experiences but its easy for people to cheat these days. Morals and values have taken a back seat in relationships.

 

Trust is completely gone it is something you will never fully get back. There will always be that doubt.

 

I don't think morals and values have, maybe for some, but I don't think any of us has any real grasp on that, we can only speak about that from the position we actually live in. I live, and have no reason not to believe that everyone around me lives through a developed sense of right and wrong, and that the values they hold are not something they will give up on a whim. Sorry, I just don't know anyone who isn't like that.

 

Trust is completely gone. Again this is not exactly true. I still trust my WS not to murder me in my sleep, to care for our daughter as a mother, to do her job, to not head off to Vegas and bet all our money on blackjack, to not become a drug addict or take up smoking, or join a cult. etc etc etc.

 

The only trust I have lost is the trust was lost from the affair. It's more than enough. But I also know that the kind of trust you talk about is what we call BLIND TRUST. And that, yeah has gone. Good Riddance! "There will always be that doubt" is exactly what will keep me alert, keep me out of being in the dark, prevent me from taking a lazy position about our marriage. Keep me on my toes. For both our sakes.

[tornapart2002]

 

The only trust I have lost is the trust was lost from the affair. It's more than enough. But I also know that the kind of trust you talk about is what we call BLIND TRUST. And that, yeah has gone. Good Riddance! "There will always be that doubt" is exactly what will keep me alert, keep me out of being in the dark, prevent me from taking a lazy position about our marriage. Keep me on my toes. For both our sakes.

 

Right there. ^^^^^ Agreed.

[AmyBamy]

I would say in my marriage it was a combination of many factors that led to my ex husband having an affair. His mother had an affair while married to his father and divorced his father to marry her AP (and they are still married, must be about 20 years now?). I think for him, because he had seen it happen and seen families rebuild he wasn't nearly as afraid of it as I was. He had a relationship with his mother and his father separately and his mother's husband who used to be her AP. So I think that let him know that having an affair was a viable option whereas I had never experienced it and heard all the horror stories and was deathly afraid of doing so.

 

As far as push or pull? Both probably. We were not good together he and I . For whatever reason and it wasn't lack of love. I did love him and I believe that he loved me at least in the beginning. Then? We just got used to each other and it was how it had always been so even when it wasn't good anymore we just kept on with it. We didn't know how to communicate with one another and couldn't get anything figured out because there was already too much hurt and resentment by the time we realized we probably needed to. So I think that our relationship and all it lacked (like I said we weren't having sex for over a year or any kind of intimacy - holding hands, kissing, hugging, touching while we slept, etc.) pushed him out. And yet the relationship he had with his girlfriend pulled him too at the same time because she was meeting those needs of intimacy for him. She was listening to him, validating him, hearing him, and meeting his needs for physical and emotional intimacy. Something I could not do anymore because of the damage already done and something she was able to do for quite some time because their relationship was new and they didn't have all the hateful baggage. We had history together sure but history isn't always a good thing.

[lovinDKT3]

It would be so easy to say I was pushed and/or pulled into my affair. Doing so would in my opinion minimize what I did. I blindly walked into the Affair, sure we had issues, but those should have been handled in a different manner. Looking back on the marriage, the real issue wasn't problems in terms of not being able to get along, it was feeling I didn't have enough time with him. Thinking that he cared more about his career which wasn't true. So no I wasn't pushed.

 

AP was an affair down situation, I used him for validation and emotional enrichment. I never once thought it was more then that. I would break it off then contact him and start it all back up. He would never contact me first. So I wasn't pulled.

 

I was selfish and cake eatting. I just had too much guilt which lead to it all crashing down around me.

[HermioneG]

I think this is fascinating perspective:

 

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/fashion/Sex-Esther-Perel-Couples-Therapy.html?_r=1&referrer=

 

. “Not every infidelity is a symptom of a problem in a relationship,” she said. “Sometimes it has to do with other longings that are much more existential. Sometimes you go elsewhere not because you are not liking the one you are with; you are not liking the person you have become.”

Edited May 22, 2014 by HermioneG
Adding quote

[Red123]

It would be so easy to say I was pushed and/or pulled into my affair. Doing so would in my opinion minimize what I did. I blindly walked into the Affair, sure we had issues, but those should have been handled in a different manner. Looking back on the marriage, the real issue wasn't problems in terms of not being able to get along, it was feeling I didn't have enough time with him. Thinking that he cared more about his career which wasn't true. So no I wasn't pushed.

 

AP was an affair down situation, I used him for validation and emotional enrichment. I never once thought it was more then that. I would break it off then contact him and start it all back up. He would never contact me first. So I wasn't pulled.

 

I was selfish and cake eatting. I just had too much guilt which lead to it all crashing down around me.

I really appreciate your honesty. It can't be easy because I have seen you receive a lot of flack on here and your H on here as well. As a BS I like reading your posts because to me you really own what you have done and appear to have really come a long way. It's nice to see a story like yours that works out. I wish you the best. My H seems to be owning his stuff but I am still struggling as I know your H has, so seeing you guys gives me hope. Sorry for the thread jack but this post spoke to me:)

[lovinDKT3]

I really appreciate your honesty. It can't be easy because I have seen you receive a lot of flack on here and your H on here as well. As a BS I like reading your posts because to me you really own what you have done and appear to have really come a long way. It's nice to see a story like yours that works out. I wish you the best. My H seems to be owning his stuff but I am still struggling as I know your H has, so seeing you guys gives me hope. Sorry for the thread jack but this post spoke to me:)

 

Thank you, its nice to know our story can help others along.

 

I know what I want (DKT) and my only shot I felt was to become totally open and honest with him.

 

I know this is for you (BS), I just wish if in the situation myself I would handle it with half the grace as many here have and are doing.

 

I'm thankful, as I'm sure your H is, to just have the chance to prove staying or coming back isn't a mistake.

[Trustnoone]

A combination of both in my opinion. Our marriage was strained by fertility and miscarriage. Fertility lasted 15 years before WW carried full term. The miscarriage devastated me more than I even realized. I see now that after being there for her I didn't communicate how it affected me. I began pushing her away to grieve on my own. I see that mistake and now am fully aware of the effects this had on her. Long story short I pushed OM pulled ever so slightly. WW and I became distant and he pulled. I'm not the perfect husband and she put up with much grief from me. I own fifty percent of the marriage faults but she owns the affair choice a hundred percent. Part of my decision to reconcile is based upon my faults in the marriage.

[fellini]

I think this is fascinating perspective:

 

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/fashion/Sex-Esther-Perel-Couples-Therapy.html?_r=1&referrer=

 

. “Not every infidelity is a symptom of a problem in a relationship,” she said. “Sometimes it has to do with other longings that are much more existential. Sometimes you go elsewhere not because you are not liking the one you are with; you are not liking the person you have become.”

 

I have been singing the praises of Esther Perel as well. I read the nytimes article above, it's okay. I posted one earlier specifically called "Why we Cheat" that I thought gave more access to her ideas, rather than focus on who she is...

 

Esther Perel on affairs: Spouses in happy marriages cheat and Americans don?t understand infidelity.

 

Her Mating in Captivity has at least 3 chapters worth the price.

Another excellent series is her piece on Post reconciliation, where she talks about three broad types of responses (Black hole, survivors, explorers). You can find these on her website Estherperel.com

 

I think she has some extremely important things to say about the PULL of erotic desire in terms infidelity, but argues that the PULL can just as easily be recovered in the marital home.

Edited May 22, 2014 by fellini

[fellini]

It would be so easy to say I was pushed and/or pulled into my affair. Doing so would in my opinion minimize what I did. I blindly walked into the Affair, sure we had issues, but those should have been handled in a different manner. Looking back on the marriage, the real issue wasn't problems in terms of not being able to get along, it was feeling I didn't have enough time with him. Thinking that he cared more about his career which wasn't true. So no I wasn't pushed.

 

AP was an affair down situation, I used him for validation and emotional enrichment. I never once thought it was more then that. I would break it off then contact him and start it all back up. He would never contact me first. So I wasn't pulled.

 

I was selfish and cake eatting. I just had too much guilt which lead to it all crashing down around me.

 

Personally I find this explanation difficult to comprehend. It vascilates between the past and the present too quickly thereby giving an illusion. It seems to me all the insights occur after dday.

 

"I blindly walked into the Affair, I had issues.. but those should have been handled a different way". This is a reflection back, to me.

 

You say for example, "thinking he cared more about his career"... "which wasn't true". Wasn't true when?

 

I don't see why you limit pull to being "contacted" first. There are false pulls. There are people who swear their AP was "coming on" to them, before their AP's knew it!

 

Did you walk blindly into the affair at the time of the affair?

Did you believe he was to immersed in his work? At the time, yes, then he was, right?

 

It's helps me little to understand my WS if all her reflection on her affair begins and ends with the new insights she has gained since DDAY. If I am to understand what PULLED her out of her marriage, then I want to know WHAT PULLED her 2 years ago, not what she has learned since that. Because surely the issue is to understand the powerful forces outside of our control that draw us into doing something we always knew, and always believed, was abhorrent behaviour.

 

Unlike the other poster here, Im not convinced that having the BS and WS cross talking in LS is necessarily some strategy for "truth". Maybe if we had the AP in here as well, we might learn something about how we behave vs. what we say, and how others interpret our rationalizations. The fact that the two of you are well into R doesn't convince me that your posts are some kind of open book. Yes of course, it provides interesting insight into how one couple is handling their recover/reconciliation, but I strongly believe being anonymous and not having one's WS/BS on the same site provides us all with greater opportunity for understanding at a level we are simply not going to get if we know our partner is listening in. I'd love to see a discussion between a WS and an AP because I think it would cut a lot of BullS demonizing either side in a post DDAY discussion. Respectfully intended.