His anger issues alienating my friends

[RoseGreen]

My husband and I have been married 2 years with a baby on the way. Things are great most of the time, but every now and then there's a blowup (usually over something really unpredictable and small) where he gets really angry in public and causes a bad scene.

 

I want to help him through it, but he doesn't think it's a big deal. He says everyone gets frustrated sometimes and I'm just overly sensitive.

 

Example: My friend Mary was talking about her religion (which he doesn't believe in). Instead of being a polite host, he started grilling her about it, talking so loudly and aggressively that the other 5 people in the room couldn't even talk over them. Mary left nearly in tears. My party broke up early as everyone went home because it was so awkward watching him tear her apart.

 

Here was my attempt to talk to him about it (LONG TEXT MESSAGE BELOW). Can someone help me figure out where I'm going wrong?

 

(Summary: he thinks that being "polite" to people is being "fake" and if he disagrees with one of my friends or family members, he's justified in picking a public fight with them even if it makes them and everyone else in the room uncomfortable.)

 

 

 

Me: Mary's eccentric, but that doesn't mean i don't welcome her in my life/house.

My Husband: i don't not welcome her

Me: I wish she would have stayed longer.

My Husband: i'm pretty glad she didn't.

Me: you are welcoming her inside your head, but I think it loses something in translation.

I think you may not know how you come across.

My Husband: apparently i came across as brusque and dickish, when I was trying to understand what she was going on about

Me: i think so, which is too bad.

because you are neither brusque nor dickish

but it's also knowing when to engage and when to realize engaging is foolish

My Husband: but apparently Mary is a crystal princess filled with half-created opinions and fragile self awareness, and I don't know if I'm capable of ignoring that level of sustained static?

Me: So, given that someone you find it hard to ignore is going to be a sustained presence in your life through friendship with me.... we should roll out a plan for future interactions.

Like, if Mary is ever being annoying, you should leave the room.

My Husband: but that's your M.O. That's like me telling you to be more aggressive with my friends, because that's my M.O.

Me: I'm just trying, from the bottom of my heart, to work with you in recommending a plan of action that doesn't alienate my friends.

My Husband: And I know it's not my place to make Mary feel bad, nor is that my intention

Me: it's really less about the specifics of Mary's personality, and more about judging the subtleties of what's socially the best thing to do in the moment. And I get that you don't excel at that, and I love and support you in it. I just have to figure out the best way to do that, and not get mad/sad at you when you don't respond the way I would.

My Husband: whatever you need

I'd just like to point out that I've imposed no successful constraints on you, your behavior, or your socialization

Me: I think it's because you don't mind how I interact with your friends, but I do mind how you interact with mine.

My Husband: but it seems every couple months, we need a new plan to reign me in

At some point, I'd like us to get to the "we're different people" live-and-let-live approach

Me: I can back off, but I really would rather you didn't inadvertently make my friends and relatives feel terrible.

My Husband: i've been happy with who I am for years now.

My Husband: but you have so many rules for so many different people that I need to communicate with in a different way

so you don't feel like you have to apologise for me

Me: I know! it would be so much easier to just say, "be nice to my friends/family, make them feel welcome, and don't be aggressive."

But you said you need a new plan for each person.

My Husband: when what you're actually saying is,

"allow everyone to have their opinion. your opinion may differ, but sssh. the person you're talking to may not be able to deal with a differing opinion. so best to bolster their point of view, and pretend you have none"

"But don't just do that! ask questions! pretend to care about what they're saying, while not contradicting anything!"

Me: YES!

you've got it!!

My Husband: THEN MOST PEOPLE DON'T DESERVE OPINIONS

why the **** would I want to talk to these people?

Me: wait, so you understand how to be polite to guests, but you don't wish to be?

My Husband: that's the sort of awful small talk you have to do for work

Me: I feel stupid for wasting so much energy on trying to teach you, when the problem wasn't understanding, but willfully not wanting to be polite

My Husband: HAVING A DIFFERING OPINION IS NOT BEING IMPOLITE

Me: there are ways to express differing opinions politely, but you often do not choose to use them.

My Husband: Being an ******* is impolite, and I've already conceded to everyone's opinion of my behavior on saturday night

it's because i don't assume people will get butt hurt because I have a different opinion than they do

Me: you may want to consider changing that assumption, if you want to come across as polite to my friends and family.

My Husband: now THAT is something i don't understand.

why do you want me to be a toady/yes-man to your friends/family?

Me: the "yes man" idea isn't a perfect persona, since I don't want you to bury who you are in the service of being nice to people. (Although I would hope that being nice to people isn't TOO far of a stretch from who you truly are.) It's an exaggeration of the actual persona I would wish you could be around my guests, which involves deciding when arguing is appropriate and when topics should be let slide.

My Husband: that's usually a thing determined by the people engaged in the argument

Me: Right. But if you're not picking up the signals, it's best to err on the side of politeness.

My Husband: i am curious

how long is my politeness threshold supposed to last?

Me: I don't know. Indefinitely. You should be able to be polite indefinitely.

If you can't take it anymore, you should be able to come to me BEFORE you snap.

My Husband: how and when?

Me: in a private conversation, and before you start feeling aggressive.

My Husband: try to spread some of your boundless compassion my way, too

Me: I do, baby

I love you.

I want to be fair to you and I want you to be happy

I try to give you feedback only when you're doing something that's really devastating me.

and even then, I want to work with you to find an approach that works for both of us.

My Husband: great

Me: but I do want you to know when it's happening, so you can make an educated decision.

My Husband: well, i have to go to work now. i'm sure we'll continue this later.

Me: do we need to continue?

I feel like we got a lot done today

My Husband: not for my benefit

Me: we established that you don't actually have a problem being polite, but you're opposed to it on moral grounds.

and i will try to meet you on that level in the future.

My Husband: we have differeing definitions of polite

my definition says nothing about agreeing with people's unfounded opinions

Me: I already said, you don't need to agree with them. Agreeing is just a shortcut if you can't figure out when to engage and when to back away.

My Husband: I'm supposed to be better than them, because I'm a reflection on you?

Me: yeah!

My Husband: fine

i'll talk to you later

Me: for someone who loves being better than most people, it might be fun to notice how much more patient and gentle you can be when someone's being unreasonable.

I don't know if that would be a fun game

anyway, I love you. Thanks for talking with me.

[elaine567]

My husband and I have been married 2 years with a baby on the way. Things are great most of the time, but every now and then there's a blowup (usually over something really unpredictable and small) where he gets really angry in public and causes a bad scene.

 

Just remember that abusive people try to isolate you from friends and family. Making public scenes which embarrass you and upset your friends/family, means that you eventually stop seeing them and that is the plan.

He then has you all to himself.

Be aware here.

[Alamo657]

Summary: he thinks that being "polite" to people is being "fake" and if he disagrees with one of my friends or family members, he's justified in picking a public fight with them even if it makes them and everyone else in the room uncomfortable.

 

You don't choose your partner's friends. You accept them and if you truely love your partner, welcome them as long as they act friendly.

 

In my opinion, your partner loves himself much more than he loves you, that's why he doesn't realize/care when he is hurting people who are stranger to his friend circle, and part of yours. His confrontational personnality gets the better of him, meaning he cannot reign off his temper when experiencing frustration.

 

I hope it doesn't lash out on you one day.

[RoseGreen]

That's a good thing to pay attention to, which I hadn't thought about. I don't think it's at that extreme point, though, because MOST of the time he is really nice to my friends. And he doesn't try to stop me from seeing them on my own.

 

It's just sometimes he has these outbursts in front of my friends (or worse, when my parents are visiting) and it's hard to know how to respond.

[elaine567]

That's a good thing to pay attention to, which I hadn't thought about. I don't think it's at that extreme point, though, because MOST of the time he is really nice to my friends. And he doesn't try to stop me from seeing them on my own.

 

It's just sometimes he has these outbursts in front of my friends (or worse, when my parents are visiting) and it's hard to know how to respond.

 

Upsetting your friends and your parents in this way is not normal behaviour.

Abuse often creeps up slowly on you, just keep it in mind here.

 

Does he do stuff like this whilst among his own friends and family?

[RoseGreen]

He sometimes does it in front of his own family, who looks the other way. And very very rarely in front of his own friends, who don't seem to mind as much as my friends/family do. I think that's possibly because the friends he chooses to have in his life are self-selected people who don't mind arguing and tend to have very aggressive opinions too.

 

I really don't think he's trying to be abusive. He just has really poor impulse control and when he gets frustrated, he stops caring how he comes across.

 

The issue is that he doesn't think that's a problem, and I do. We tried therapy for this last year, and he seemed to improve a little bit (maybe that's wishful thinking on my part) but now he's back to normal.

[elaine567]

The issue is that he doesn't think that's a problem, and I do. We tried therapy for this last year, and he seemed to improve a little bit (maybe that's wishful thinking on my part) but now he's back to normal.

 

What did the therapist say about him?

[Mirage10]

Has he always been like this? If not, are there any stressors in his life at the moment, the preganancy, work?

 

If he has always been like this, then, well, you knew this before you married him and now want to change him?

 

Saying all of this, seems like he does not have social skills. There's a difference between having and conveying your opinion politely, or like an ass. Seems like he looses it when he can't make headway with his argument, in other words, when he is not winning the other party over to see things his way.

 

He does not seem to understand there is a difference between backing off (and then looking weak) and being diplomatic (agree to disagree), especially in a social setting.

Somehow he needs to be shown that there is a difference between looking like a neanderthal by not backing off, but also that he can withdraw from a debate or cool it down without looking weak or that he has compromized on his opinion.

[FastHands]

Imho His anger probably amuses you... It's just when he turns on you that you will wake up. Never understood why women ask to be treated with love and respect and fall for someone very different with the hope of changing one day for the good.

[Dolfin80]

I'm interested in the dialect of these arguments. Like what happens during the arguments and what are they over?

[Mr. Lucky]

Me: I can back off, but I really would rather you didn't inadvertently make my friends and relatives feel terrible.

My Husband: i've been happy with who I am for years now.

 

Doesn't sound like he has a bit of interest in changing.

 

Is being a jerk a personality disorder? I'd be humiliated if my spouse did this to my friends/family in my home and I can guarantee you it wouldn't happen more than once. In disrespecting those close to you, he's indicating contempt for you also.

 

Once your child grows up, will he consider it his right to drive his/her friends away also?

 

Mr. Lucky

[SoleMate]

Try reading The Feeling Good Handbook by David Burns; it may have some answers for you. If you can get your husband to read it, even better. Good luck!

[Lois_Griffin]

How about you stop appeasing this verbally abusive bully?

 

This ridiculously long text conversation wouldn't have even happened if he were a normal, emotionally well-adjusted human being. It wouldn't even be an issue. The fact that you practically had to write War and Peace in a text conversation JUST to explain to him what he did wrong speaks VOLUMES.

 

And none of it good.

 

I left a verbally abusive, angry man like this. I gave him 6 months to clean up his act but left at the 4 month mark when he hadn't done much of anything to even START working on himself. But at least he realized he wasn't acting normal - your husband is so damned arrogant that he actually says he's quite happy with who he is.

 

I guess if he's happy being a verbally abusive assclown, then that will be your lot in life if you choose to stay with him.

[66Charger]

This is actually very easy to understand and fix. With a lot of guys, when they hang out, they can tear into each other and it really means nothing. Its a give and take and if you are insulted, , you can either insult back or ignore, but no one really cares. If you were an outsider listening in, you would be mortified. He doesnt realize that your friends are not the same as his freinds and should not be treated as so.

 

A different strategy: Prior to your get togethers, you should tell your freinds to ignore your husband if he starts going south. Dont engage him and dont leave the party. NEVER let it change the atmosphere. You can control this even if you have to cut him off mid sentence, tell your friend to ignore and change the subject. Continue to happily chat away.

 

It takes away his power, when he realizes he has no effect on your freinds. Your husband likes to talk and probally thinks he is right all the time. However, if the audience could care less, he will relegate himself to the corner, shut up or try a different approach.

 

Its like when you pass the neighborhood dog, that barks and growls at everyone. If you ignore the dog, or look at him like "why are you making all that useless noise?" the dog will learn not to bother with the familiar.

[elaine567]

This is actually very easy to understand and fix. With a lot of guys, when they hang out, they can tear into each other and it really means nothing. Its a give and take and if you are insulted, , you can either insult back or ignore, but no one really cares. If you were an outsider listening in, you would be mortified. He doesnt realize that your friends are not the same as his freinds and should not be treated as so.

 

He's a grown man he has been through therapy for this and still he is shouting at the friends and parents...

I think he is an emotional abuser, clearing the decks of her friends and family in order to isolate the OP.

He doesn't need to tell them to leave or stop her from seeing them - humiliating the OP and "terrorising" the friends/parents with his anger issues, will eventually do the job.

 

"Me: I wish she would have stayed longer.

My Husband: i'm pretty glad she didn't."

[txgrl]

He is being rude to a female friend of the OPs. Some people just HAVE to win the argument ,at least in their own minds .

I agree . Take turns between talking to him gently about it and ignoring his rants .

Don't stress yourself too much about it . You will soo have a baby to take care of . Take good care of yourself .

[Poppyolive]

He's basically telling you he doesn't care. He'll do and say as he pleases, even if it hurts your friends, your family and you. Your husband doesn't care.

 

Let that sink in....he doesn't care that he is hurting you. Please don't make excuses, he's usually nice, just sometimes. It's a control thing. He has got your right where he wants you. Reading the text conversation was so infuriating, and very exhausting. I bet you're exhausted. You sound like a wonderful woman. You handled it well. But please now, all this work you're doing will exhaust you and break you down.

 

I wonder how he would react if you took control. Bring him down a notch. Eg. Same situation, you ask him to stop speaking to your friend like that and ask him to leave, so you can all get in with enjoying your night. What do you think he would do? Say?

 

As long as he has you, right where he wants you, beneath him, him in control, with will continue. There's something not right here, and I feel there may be a lot more going in and you not bring honest with yourself. He is fully aware of what he is doing.

 

Take Care of yourself.

[johan]

What was he hoping to achieve by beating Mary down? If he had finally won the argument and made the point, what was going to be the reward? Lots of great pats on the back and congratulations and oral sex from all the women in the room? Not likely if everyone ends up disliking him in the process.

 

There are a lot of people he wouldn't engage with this way no matter what their opinions were. He's choosing non-threatening targets. Both you and Mary. He was being a bully, in essence, beating up on people for the enjoyment of it.

 

The best case would be for him to see this for himself, and change because he cares. No matter how much you argue with him about it, maybe even offering rewards for good behavior and threatening to make bad behavior costly, you can't make him care. That's a character thing.

 

I've acted the same way in the past. Maybe I was venting resentment or stress, or I just didn't understand the effect I was having. I'd like to think I'm better than that. I admit that some people trigger me, but I've come to realize you can't win with them, and whatever the problem is it's internal to me. I don't feel better about myself after crushing the Marys in my life. I feel worse.

[OneLov]

Here was my attempt to talk to him about it (LONG TEXT MESSAGE BELOW). Can someone help me figure out where I'm going wrong?

 

(Summary: he thinks that being "polite" to people is being "fake" and if he disagrees with one of my friends or family members, he's justified in picking a public fight with them even if it makes them and everyone else in the room uncomfortable.)

 

 

 

 

My Husband: THEN MOST PEOPLE DON'T DESERVE OPINIONS

why the **** would I want to talk to these people?

Me: wait, so you understand how to be polite to guests, but you don't wish to be?

 

But your husband deserves to have that opinion and express it rudely to others because he simply cannot tolerate any views that are not in line with his? Oh boy.

 

So what are you doing wrong? Nothing!! That text exchange makes him sound like a complete narcissist. Like, I do not bow to the world; it bows to me. And if science does not agree with me, I will get new scientists.

 

Seriously you are going to allow him to burn many bridges for you. Like others have said, it is a way to control you. Do not tolerate it. If he cannot share, then he can go play by himself at the kid's table. Do not go sit with him.

 

I wish you the best of luck. But you are doing nothing wrong and your expectations are 100% in-line with objectively acceptable and normal human behavior.

 

OL

 

 

PS - This situation reminds me of the skits on The Chappelle Show, When "Keeping it Real" Goes Wrong.

 

[Dolfin80]

Another thing I find strange is - what's he even doing being around your friends?

 

Most hubby's would ping off and give you time with your girlfriends. Esp when he doesn't like them. He shouldn't even be there to argue with them, they aren't his friends, they are yours.

 

I'd be annoyed if I visited my girlfriends and hubby's hanging around being annoying.

[johan]

Another thing I find strange is - what's he even doing being around your friends?

 

Most hubby's would ping off and give you time with your girlfriends. Esp when he doesn't like them. He shouldn't even be there to argue with them, they aren't his friends, they are yours.

 

I'd be annoyed if I visited my girlfriends and hubby's hanging around being annoying.

 

Could have been a dinner thing. But I think it's also a bit much to expect that your husband will like each of your friends, and maybe he would rather not hang out with some of them. He can still be civil and treat them fairly, regardless. He's going to have to be around them occasionally whether he likes it or not.

 

My wife has a friend or two I'd rather not spend time with myself, and she respects that. I never had to go to battle with them in front of her in order for her to understand, not that I ever would. I really don't want her to feel bad about trying to have a social life and stay connected to people she cares about.

[Mr. Lucky]

This is actually very easy to understand and fix. With a lot of guys, when they hang out, they can tear into each other and it really means nothing. Its a give and take and if you are insulted, , you can either insult back or ignore, but no one really cares. If you were an outsider listening in, you would be mortified. He doesnt realize that your friends are not the same as his freinds and should not be treated as so.

 

I think you're cutting him way too much slack, he offers the same boorish bullying to her family also. This isn't "boys will be boys".

 

Even the most aggressive of my friends, the guys that won't hesitate to turn the knife, know how to behave around other people. At best the OP's husband is socially maladjusted, at worst he's just an a**hole...

 

Mr. Lucky

[HopeForTomorrow]

My Husband: apparently I came across as brusque and dickish, when I was trying to understand what she was going on about

Me: I think so too, which is too bad because you are neither brusque or dickish[/Quote]

 

I beg to differ. According to what you posted and this conversation, he definitely appears to be both brusque and dickish.

 

My Husband: but apparently Mary is a crystal princess filled with half-created opinions and fragile self awareness, and I don't know if I'm capable of ignoring that level of sustained static[/Quote]

 

That says it all, right there.

 

This ridiculously long text conversation wouldn't have even happened if he were a normal, emotionally well-adjusted human being. It wouldn't even be an issue. The fact that you practically had to write War and Peace in a text conversation JUST to explain to him what he did wrong speaks VOLUMES.

 

Yes, and he STILL didn't get it, even at the conclusion of the text message version of War and Peace.

 

And the reason he didn't get it is the same reason he did it in the first place - he's a socially immature, emotionally abusive asshat who loves himself more than he cares about anyone else.

 

I was married to a man like this for 17 years. OP, I can tell you, unfortunately, that it doesn't get better - it just gets worse. He did the same thing around my family and he had no patience and blew up in public all the time (and in private). My family BEGGED me to divorce him but it took me too long to finally leave.

 

This is not easily fixable, if it's fixable at all. He has no self-awareness and he doesn't care. You should not have to fix this man That's not your job.

 

I would suggest that you work on being a bit more assertive with him, as Lois mentioned. I understand walking on eggshells, believe me. But you aren't going to "nice" him or "I love you" him into changing.

 

I wish you luck, but please be careful, and if things don't change very soon then don't let 17 years of your life be sucked away like I did.

Edited March 6, 2016 by HopeForTomorrow

[266696687]

This post is horrifying.

 

The OP is going to wake up one day and have no friends or family around her because of her husbands actions. His behaviour is so far from normal yet she is struggling to see the truth.

 

He is plain and simply abusive. There's no middle ground here. His arrogance in his conversation with her is astounding. Even the way he talks to her is a disgrace.

 

She really needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

The whole thing is beyond horrifying.

 

Why was he allowed to continue to talk to your friend in such a way? Did you or anyone else in the room intervene? No? Because he is a bully and everyone is scared of him.

 

Your husband show's zero remorse. Has a complete and totally lack of empathy and an over inflated ego and sense of entitlement.

 

Normal people do not behave this way.

 

You need to wake up!

Edited March 7, 2016 by 266696687

[jen1447]

Sounds to me like he needs to be humiliated. You're playing pattycake when in reality the stakes are much higher than those kinds of 'rules' can account for.