In a marital standoff..brutal honesty needed

[Thicke2013]

Okay I'll try to give the short version with pertinent details to keep this as short as possible.

 

 

As I've said here before, my wife is in sales. We have our ups and downs like any relationship but I am far happier than I have ever been in my life and she says the same. With that said, I was never a jealous person but in our relationship I do have a tendency to be jealous. At times it has been over the top but lately it has gotten better and I've become more comfortable. My wife and I have an open phone policy, she can look at my phone at anytime and I can hers as well. The other night my son was playing a game on her phone so she used mine and looked through emails, texts, fb messages, etc. This does not bother me a bit because I have nothing to hide. I have looked through hers at times before and it actually becomes like a joke between the two of us.

 

 

Now last night I had grabbed her phone looking at an email that she had asked me to look at between her and a friend. After reading that one I looked at another that had a name I recognized being someone she had dealt with recently and had talked about some. I looked at that email and found some pretty flirty banter between them. When she returned I asked her about it and she just laughed it off. So let me say exactly what bothered me about this email. First of all she started the email to him with "Hey gorgeous!". Now, this may not seem like much to anyone else, but that is how she has always addressed me, even when we first started dating. The rest of the conversation was pretty ho-hum with them talking about work things, and then she said for his troubles (something had gotten messed up with his order) she would buy him a bottle of his favorite bourbon. He responded with something to the affect of some alcohol makes him want to fight and some make him want to love. My wife responded with, "I like lovings!" and a smiley face. That is where I had a problem. She said it's just playful banter. I said it made me feel uncomfortable and was a little too flirty. Just this morning I asked her if it was just playful banter if she would send me the email conversation so that I could read it and maybe I would understand it. Her response has been that my jealousy is going to kill our relationship.

 

 

I need advice. Am I being way to overly jealous? Should I let it go? Brutal honesty please.

[road]

Her sending that email was not appropriate.

[d0nnivain]

She crossed a line but not too far. You both should be able to come back from this.

 

Because you are her husband & it upset you, even if she didn't mean anything by it & even if she thinks you are overreacting, she still needs to apologize for hurting your feelings & she needs to dial it back. I'm a flirty person but there are things that go too far.

 

You need to take a deep breath & acknowledge that your jealousy isn't helping but she is also at fault.

[Thicke2013]

She crossed a line but not too far. You both should be able to come back from this.

 

Because you are her husband & it upset you, even if she didn't mean anything by it & even if she thinks you are overreacting, she still needs to apologize for hurting your feelings & she needs to dial it back. I'm a flirty person but there are things that go too far.

 

You need to take a deep breath & acknowledge that your jealousy isn't helping but she is also at fault.

 

I agree that my jealousy gets the best of me at times and I admit this to her. I was never a jealous person prior to her but honestly I was never afraid to lose anyone else I've ever been with. This morning I asked her to send me the email conversation between the two of them so that I could see if it was in fact playful banter. She has blatantly refused and has said that my jealousy is killing our relationship. I'm reeling. I don't feel like what I'm asking should be a big deal if there is really nothing to hide.

[d0nnivain]

I asked her to send me the email conversation between the two of them so that I could see if it was in fact playful banter. She has blatantly refused and has said that my jealousy is killing our relationship. I'm reeling. I don't feel like what I'm asking should be a big deal if there is really nothing to hide.

 

I'd counter with the fact that you want to get over your jealousy but she has to help by being open with you & showing the evidence that you have nothing to worry about. Give her ways to help you. Right now she feels attacked & like you don't trust her. Part of the issue is you don't trust yourself.

[sandylee1]

I'm coming from a female viewpoint here.... I think it's banter, but I can be a little flirty/friendly myself at times.. nothing harmful at all...and I don't let people overstep the mark... but I'm quite sure if I addressed another man the way I address my husband (I have a similar name like your wife does for you). He would uncomfortable with it.

 

With me it's harmless it really is.... I think your wife was just being very friendly and it was banter .... don't let it stress you out.... just chill.

[Thicke2013]

I'd counter with the fact that you want to get over your jealousy but she has to help by being open with you & showing the evidence that you have nothing to worry about. Give her ways to help you. Right now she feels attacked & like you don't trust her. Part of the issue is you don't trust yourself.

 

I did that to no avail. This has spiraled out of control really, of course all via email. She says I'm treating her like a criminal. I'm at a loss. Of course now I'm torn. If there really is nothing to hide, why not share it and prove the innocence? Why fight it this hard?

[Thicke2013]

I'm coming from a female viewpoint here.... I think it's banter, but I can be a little flirty/friendly myself at times.. nothing harmful at all...and I don't let people overstep the mark... but I'm quite sure if I addressed another man the way I address my husband (I have a similar name like your wife does for you). He would uncomfortable with it.

 

With me it's harmless it really is.... I think your wife was just being very friendly and it was banter .... don't let it stress you out.... just chill.

 

This was my exact point with her. She is a very friendly person and can be flirty at times too and I don't mind that especially in the field she is in. It's not like she was texting the guy or calling him. It was all via email. But, if I have concerns and ask to see the conversation and she vehemently refuses does that no seem like there is something to hide? She says no but refuses to prove it. Does nothing to quench the jealousy, as a matter of fact it fuels it.

[hippychick3]

I think it depends on the person. Is your wife typically a flirty person with no substance behind it? Is she an overly friendly type of person? I think the email is inappropriate regardless of the answers to those questions, but the answers may put her actions into a "better" light.

 

I know that I would never send such an email to any man while in a relationship. I think you have every right to want to see all their exchanges after coming across THAT. Her defensiveness is suspect.

[d0nnivain]

I did that to no avail. This has spiraled out of control really, of course all via email. She says I'm treating her like a criminal. I'm at a loss. Of course now I'm torn. If there really is nothing to hide, why not share it and prove the innocence? Why fight it this hard?

 

 

Are you kidding me? You picked this fight with your wife via e-mail?!!! for heaven's sake. That is half your problem. You need to have this discussion with her, calmly, quietly while she can see your face & see the sincerity in your eyes. She's fighting this hard because she feels attacked.

 

 

Stop emailing her & talk to her!!!

[oldshirt]

Everything in life is a matter of degrees and is on a continuum.

 

 

99.99% of flirty banter between friends, coworkers and acquaintences never result in an affairs.

 

 

But 100% of affairs have some flirty banter between the players at some point.

 

 

There is nothing here to indicate that they have had sex or that there is any kind of affair taking place yet.

 

 

So this comes down to a matter of boundaries. You are going to have to set boundaries that you can live with that won't cause you undo distress.

 

 

Now locking her up in the house and making her dress in head to toe burkas and not allowing her to talk to or gaze upon any other male is not realistic (and affairs still do occur in the cultures that practice that).

 

 

But allowing her to suck other men's junk as long as they don't cum in her mouth isn't an effective boundary either.

 

 

So somewhere between those two extremes you will have to establish some kind of boundaries and limits where you each can live normal lives with appropriate and healthy social and business relationships that you each can live with.

[Lois_Griffin]

That wasn't innocent banter.

 

 

That was a fishing expedition on her part.

[Thicke2013]

Are you kidding me? You picked this fight with your wife via e-mail?!!! for heaven's sake. That is half your problem. You need to have this discussion with her, calmly, quietly while she can see your face & see the sincerity in your eyes. She's fighting this hard because she feels attacked.

 

 

Stop emailing her & talk to her!!!

 

I tried to have it face to face this morning. That didn't work out well. She got mad and didn't want to talk about it. Just told me that I didn't trust her.

[Thicke2013]

Just to clarify, I know they aren't having an affair. He is in a different state and they have limited contact via email. This is more about her not wanting to show me the content of the emails and my jealousy I guess.

[Mr. Lucky]

O We have our ups and downs like any relationship but I am far happier than I have ever been in my life and she says the same. With that said, I was never a jealous person but in our relationship I do have a tendency to be jealous. At times it has been over the top but lately it has gotten better and I've become more comfortable.

 

Why do you think this is the only relationship where your jealousy has been an issue?

 

Mr. Lucky

[privategal]

The good news is, the emails were not deleted and she isnt squeamish about you checking her phone...so knowing you would likely see it...she didn't hide it.

I feel instinctively she likely crossed the line intentionally with "gorgeous" and "I like loving" because sales is competitive, she is using her sexual prowess for the sake of building loyalty with a male client.

Im NOT excusing this...using the same novelties she uses for you IS hurtful but thankfully you saw it so you can express your feelings and she could learn from it.

Ask her if she opened an email of yours to a female that said "hey beautiful" if she might feel nervous or a little hurt.

It sounds like your relationship is healthy...I also have a non jealous husband and I love him so much for that.

If you can discuss it in a non defensive calm lighthearted way and in a way that is more to seek understanding you will get further and she will be more likely to hear your side.

Your jealousy here is fair but make your point fair and square and drop it as I do think jealousy between a couple does tear you down.

You can likely trust her...say "hey babe, I trust you but going forward, honey-sweetie-hey gorgeous....those names are MINE cause Im your hubby and I love you and give you that same respect that all sweet nicknames and flirting are reserved for my #1 girl!" then scoop her up and kiss her passionately!!

[daveuk88]

Personally I feel sales needs flirtiness, it wouldn't bother me as it achieves results (especially if he is miles away)

 

I've never failed a job interview when being questioned by a middle aged woman

 

On a serious note - my opinion is that once the point is reached where other halves are looking through phones, emails etc then it's game over. Clearly no trust that is the foundation to a successful relationship.

[catapult88]

Personally I think you're just going to make things worse. If the flirty emails bother you, they bother you. They wouldn't bother me, but whatever, that's who you are. However, you needed to be able to leave it at telling her that it made you uncomfortable, and maybe take that as a lesson for yourself that if you trust her, don't go reading her emails if little things are going to make you spiral.

 

From her end, it's possible that there is more flirty behavior in the rest of the emails and she is afraid of the bigger fight if you see them, and it's just as likely that she feels hurt by your lack of trust and is digging her heels in to not give in to that emotion.

 

Unless you think you're going to uncover something much larger, which you've indicated you don't, just drop it about reading the other emails.

[angel.eyes]

Yeah, she's skated just over the boundaries IMO, especially with her statement about enjoying lovings after offering him a gift of alcohol. You are being more than reasonable to raise your concerns. I think it would have been foolhardy to say nothing.

 

Several thoughts/suggestions:

1. Don't apologize for raising your concerns. Someone once told me a little jealousy (when appropriate of course) can actually be good. It means that you value what you have. It also helps your partner understand where the boundaries in your relationship lie. It's an opportunity to communicate, negotiate, and ensure you're on the same page regarding those.
   
2. Never ignore your intuition.
   
3. Salespeople tend to be extroverted, friendly, and most are naturally a little flirtatious. That being said, the land of affairs is littered with people who never thought they would ever, or even could, cheat. You should read Not "Just Friends" by Shirley Glass together.
   
4. Finally, you're at an impasse in the argument, in large part because you're focused on leaves instead of the "big picture" forest. She's dug her heels in to defend herself (to be expected when someone suggests you did something inappropriate). You're entrenched in your position because she refuses to acknowledge that your concerns are reasonable (which they are). Instead of squabbling to "make" her give you a copy of an email you've already read (because she's an open book with her communications), take a step back. Sit down and have an in-person discussion. Point out that you're a team, and ask her how she suggests you both address the underlying concern. Let her speak until she has nothing more to say...and listen to and acknowledge what she says. Often, when someone feels like they've had a chance to express themselves fully, they are then more willing to consider alternate perspectives and Me open to hearing what you have to say.
   

 

Out of curiosity, why do you need a copy of this email anyway? Does having a copy fix anything? Is having a copy the only solution to this situation? More to the point, does you getting a copy fix the bigger issue. Focus on the real problem--poor boundaries and flirting--not the precise words used in a particular email.

Edited December 29, 2015 by angel.eyes

[Got it]

I am not one to flirt easily so take it with a grain of salt. But I would not be comfortable for my husband to have written that to someone and I know he would not appreciate me writing like that to another man.

 

I think there are valid reasons to be concerned and it is a good talk about boundaries and respecting each other. Not saying she was doing anything than harmless flirting but it crossed the line for you so she should respect that and tailor her communication.

[Thicke2013]

Why do you think this is the only relationship where your jealousy has been an issue?

 

 

There are actually several reasons. One being most of my relationships before were with women totally different than my wife. My ex was very introverted and would mainly only speak when spoken to and wasn't very outgoing. She just wasn't a very friendly person in general. My wife now is very outgoing and very extroverted and I love that about her. It also causes me to be jealous sometimes I guess. The other probably most important reason I stated in a previous post, I've never been afraid of losing anyone I've been with before. I'm very self sufficient, bought my first house at 19 and have a good job, etc. I've never felt as though I needed someone. I need her on a totally different level and all of that is totally new to me.

 

Mr. Lucky

 

The good news is, the emails were not deleted and she isnt squeamish about you checking her phone...so knowing you would likely see it...she didn't hide it.

I feel instinctively she likely crossed the line intentionally with "gorgeous" and "I like loving" because sales is competitive, she is using her sexual prowess for the sake of building loyalty with a male client.

Im NOT excusing this...using the same novelties she uses for you IS hurtful but thankfully you saw it so you can express your feelings and she could learn from it.

Ask her if she opened an email of yours to a female that said "hey beautiful" if she might feel nervous or a little hurt.

It sounds like your relationship is healthy...I also have a non jealous husband and I love him so much for that.

If you can discuss it in a non defensive calm lighthearted way and in a way that is more to seek understanding you will get further and she will be more likely to hear your side.

Your jealousy here is fair but make your point fair and square and drop it as I do think jealousy between a couple does tear you down.

You can likely trust her...say "hey babe, I trust you but going forward, honey-sweetie-hey gorgeous....those names are MINE cause Im your hubby and I love you and give you that same respect that all sweet nicknames and flirting are reserved for my #1 girl!" then scoop her up and kiss her passionately!!

 

 

I ask those type of "how would you feel" questions often and I'm always met with the typical, "if I knew there was nothing then I wouldn't be concerned" answers. Sometimes those are true but I don't think she ever takes the time to see things from my perspective, only minimizes her involvement. Her answers don't usually match the reactions I get.

 

Yeah, she's skated just over the boundaries IMO, especially with her statement about enjoying lovings after offering him a gift of alcohol. You are being more than reasonable to raise your concerns. I think it would have been foolhardy to say nothing.

 

 

Several thoughts/suggestions:

1. Don't apologize for raising your concerns. Someone once told me a little jealousy (when appropriate of course) can actually be good. It means that you value what you have. It also helps your partner understand where the boundaries in your relationship lie. It's an opportunity to communicate, negotiate, and ensure you're on the same page regarding those.
   
2. Never ignore your intuition.
   
3. Salespeople tend to be extroverted, friendly, and most are naturally a little flirtatious. That being said, the land of affairs is littered with people who never thought they would ever, or even could, cheat. You should read Not "Just Friends" by Shirley Glass together.
   
4. Finally, you're at an impasse in the argument, in large part because you're focused on leaves instead of the "big picture" forest. She's dug her heels in to defend herself (to be expected when someone suggests you did something inappropriate). You're entrenched in your position because she refuses to acknowledge that your concerns are reasonable (which they are). Instead of squabbling to "make" her give you a copy of an email you've already read (because she's an open book with her communications), take a step back. Sit down and have an in-person discussion. Point out that you're a team, and ask her how she suggests you both address the underlying concern. Let her speak until she has nothing more to say...and listen to and acknowledge what she says. Often, when someone feels like they've had a chance to express themselves fully, they are then more willing to consider alternate perspectives and Me open to hearing what you have to say.
   

Out of curiosity, why do you need a copy of this email anyway? Does having a copy fix anything? Is having a copy the only solution to this situation? More to the point, does you getting a copy fix the bigger issue. Focus on the real problem--poor boundaries and flirting--not the precise words used in a particular email.

 

 

What I read last night was on the phone and was snippets. I asked for the whole conversation to be emailed to me to prove to me that in context of the conversation it was just playful banter and not over the top flirty like I thought. I also only saw her last email to him which contained the "I like Lovings" comment. I wanted to see his response to that because I told her last night being a man I knew how I would take that comment and that he would too. She assured me that it wasn't a sexual innuendo. His response would be very telling.

[Quiet Storm]

First, I feel that it's unfair to label someone jealous or insecure when something legitimately suspicious has happened. You saw, with your own eyes, an inappropriate conversation. Instead of sharing it with you so that you two can discuss your expectations & agree on appropriate boundaries going forward, she is turning it around on you. She's deflecting and hoping you'll let it go because you don't want to appear jealous or insecure. This is a red flag, IMO.

 

It's perfectly healthy & normal to expect your spouse to have appropriate boundaries with members of the opposite sex. It's not jealous or insecure to have a problem with your spouse flirting. Marriages should be treasured, respected and protected. As a married person, when I interact with the opposite sex, I always keep that in mind.

 

I understand that some people have flirty personalities, and if a spouse is cool with their wife/husband flirting with other guys/ girls, then that is their prerogative. However, most spouses have expectations that their spouses will behave in ways that are respectful to their marriage. Most people want their spouses to protect & honor the marriage.

 

Even if a spouse has no intention of cheating, flirting shows that they are seeking attention or validation from the opposite sex. It's not harmless, IMO, because regardless of intent, it sends the message to others that you are willing to cross lines or boundaries. It shows that their needs for flirty banter are greater than their desire to respect/ protect the marriage. If the flirty banter means nothing, then there should be no problem with NOT doing it, right?

 

In OP's case, lets assume that his wife is faithful & has no desire to cheat or disrespect her husband. She just likes being playful & thinks it's fun to compliment guys, talk to them about "lovings" and just be her charming & happy self. She's just being "herself". She shouldn't have to be boring & reserved just because she's married, right?

 

That seems all fine & good from her perspective, but she's ignoring a big factor- What message does her behavior send to the other person? What is the recipient of the flirting thinking about? The flirty person will certainly say, "Who cares what they think? I KNOW I WON'T CHEAT!" But the thing is, many of the spouses DO care. Are they just supposed to suck it up because flirting makes their spouse feel good?

 

Most guys don't want other men thinking their wife is a possibility, but this isn't usually due to jealously or insecurity. It's about RESPECT. Flirting with other guys makes them feel disrespected. And when a wife keeps doing it, or minimizes the impact of it, it sends the message that her needs for attention or validation are more important than respecting her marriage. That's a BIG problem (not harmless).

 

OP, I think you should tell your wife that you are not jealous, but you feel disrespected. Be clear with your expectations regarding flirting. Don't apologize for being upset about this. If she can't be herself without flirting, then she needs to find ways to express that side of herself without being disrespectful to you or your marriage.

 

She needs to be willing to talk this out. It sounds like she is hoping you'll just let it go, which does lead me to believe there could be more. Tell her that you are not trying to control her, but you need to discuss this and what expectations you have for your marriage. She can do what she wants, but these are your expectations.

 

Be sure to tell her that you love her, and you love your marriage. Make it clear that your bond is special and important and you feel that it deserves to be protected. Ask her if she feels if there's anything more she needs from you. Portray your marriage as an entity that you both should treasure & care for, day in & day out. This means that you work together to set boundaries that you both can agree to. You do your best to meet your partners needs and avoid behavior that you know will hurt or disrespect them. It's a team effort and a successful marriage is a work in progress.

[Thicke2013]

First, I feel that it's unfair to label someone jealous or insecure when something legitimately suspicious has happened. You saw, with your own eyes, an inappropriate conversation. Instead of sharing it with you so that you two can discuss your expectations & agree on appropriate boundaries going forward, she is turning it around on you. She's deflecting and hoping you'll let it go because you don't want to appear jealous or insecure. This is a red flag, IMO.

 

It's perfectly healthy & normal to expect your spouse to have appropriate boundaries with members of the opposite sex. It's not jealous or insecure to have a problem with your spouse flirting. Marriages should be treasured, respected and protected. As a married person, when I interact with the opposite sex, I always keep that in mind.

 

I understand that some people have flirty personalities, and if a spouse is cool with their wife/husband flirting with other guys/ girls, then that is their prerogative. However, most spouses have expectations that their spouses will behave in ways that are respectful to their marriage. Most people want their spouses to protect & honor the marriage.

 

Even if a spouse has no intention of cheating, flirting shows that they are seeking attention or validation from the opposite sex. It's not harmless, IMO, because regardless of intent, it sends the message to others that you are willing to cross lines or boundaries. It shows that their needs for flirty banter are greater than their desire to respect/ protect the marriage. If the flirty banter means nothing, then there should be no problem with NOT doing it, right?

 

In OP's case, lets assume that his wife is faithful & has no desire to cheat or disrespect her husband. She just likes being playful & thinks it's fun to compliment guys, talk to them about "lovings" and just be her charming & happy self. She's just being "herself". She shouldn't have to be boring & reserved just because she's married, right?

 

That seems all fine & good from her perspective, but she's ignoring a big factor- What message does her behavior send to the other person? What is the recipient of the flirting thinking about? The flirty person will certainly say, "Who cares what they think? I KNOW I WON'T CHEAT!" But the thing is, many of the spouses DO care. Are they just supposed to suck it up because flirting makes their spouse feel good?

 

Most guys don't want other men thinking their wife is a possibility, but this isn't usually due to jealously or insecurity. It's about RESPECT. Flirting with other guys makes them feel disrespected. And when a wife keeps doing it, or minimizes the impact of it, it sends the message that her needs for attention or validation are more important than respecting her marriage. That's a BIG problem (not harmless).

 

OP, I think you should tell your wife that you are not jealous, but you feel disrespected. Be clear with your expectations regarding flirting. Don't apologize for being upset about this. If she can't be herself without flirting, then she needs to find ways to express that side of herself without being disrespectful to you or your marriage.

 

She needs to be willing to talk this out. It sounds like she is hoping you'll just let it go, which does lead me to believe there could be more. Tell her that you are not trying to control her, but you need to discuss this and what expectations you have for your marriage. She can do what she wants, but these are your expectations.

 

Be sure to tell her that you love her, and you love your marriage. Make it clear that your bond is special and important and you feel that it deserves to be protected. Ask her if she feels if there's anything more she needs from you. Portray your marriage as an entity that you both should treasure & care for, day in & day out. This means that you work together to set boundaries that you both can agree to. You do your best to meet your partners needs and avoid behavior that you know will hurt or disrespect them. It's a team effort and a successful marriage is a work in progress.

 

 

Well, we just had a somewhat better conversation on the phone. I was under the impression that she was hiding his response from me. She said he never responded. Either way we have some discussions that need to be had to establish boundaries for the both of us. I understand she has a job to do and I being in sales also see why a certain amount of flirty banter is necessary. However, I don't like it going into sexual innuendos and I'm certain that she wouldn't like it if the roles were reversed either. We have decided to go out for dinner this evening and talk. Wish me luck. Thanks for all the replies. It really helped me through my day to be able to get this off my chest and get some unbiased advise. Cheers.

[BettyDraper]

Just to clarify, I know they aren't having an affair. He is in a different state and they have limited contact via email. This is more about her not wanting to show me the content of the emails and my jealousy I guess.

 

Being in a different part of the country doesn't mean that two people cannot have an affair. In fact, sometimes distance makes things more convenient in terms of being discovered. How do you know your wife doesn't have another phone that you aren't aware of? I'm just playing devil's advocate and not saying that your wife is sleeping with this guy.

 

When I was in sales or being interviewed by a man, I used my megawatt smile and my friendly warmth to close deals or charm my interviewer. However, I never used terms of endearment as that would have been too unprofessional and disrespectful to my husband.

[sandylee1]

Just to clarify, I know they aren't having an affair. He is in a different state and they have limited contact via email. This is more about her not wanting to show me the content of the emails and my jealousy I guess.

 

I can see my husband acting like you... and being stubborn I'd be like your wife. You've seen the email..what else do you want to do? See all their conversations or just analyse this one?

 

You need to let it go. It's her nature.... and you do need to keep customers sweet at times by being light hearted.

 

Now... knowing that this would bug the hell out of my H.. I'd probably give in and show it to him.. but it would piss me off that he had to see the convo. Try and have some trust in your wife.

 

The reality is I probably chat to men in a way I wouldn't do if my H was around. I mean nothing by it.. sometimes it's to negotiate a good price on something ....... feminine charm. It's not a big deal ... you will drive yourself crazy over this.