Marriage for Life- Outdated?

[davep]

Consider this:

 

The whole concept of "marriage to one person for life" is simply as outdated as "working in the same job for life" has become.

 

Long ago, perhaps even a generation or two ago, people retired from the same company they started with. They lived in the same house for their whole lives. They married one person for life.

 

However, the world became more connected, more options exist, more choices became available, and more people come into our lives- than when this concept was hammered into people as the "moral" way to be.

 

So, now we see people being married multiple times as a common practice. Why? I'd say that "most times", spouses simply grow up, change, and actually get to a place where they dont really want to be with each other anymore. Things change, people change.

 

So, if its possible, (after 21 years of marriage here) I'd advise people to not marry at all. Its not necessary.

 

Theres nothing unusual, or particularly wrong with having a daddy at one house and mommy at another.

 

And its better than a mommy who's angry and resentful, and a daddy who's always working, (escape) or grumpy (depressed)- in the same house.

[2SidestoStories]

Having found myself in a very similar situation as you describe, only after a much shorter period of relationship, I have to second your motion.

 

Morals are wonderful things to have. But to adhere to morals when they are absolutely destructive is pure tomfoolery.

 

I would love to think that there are still people out there who can and will remain married and in love and together and all of that forever!

 

I don't know about outdated, but I do know that people are fickle creatures, and as Tony so brilliantly pointed out in a thread a while back that had nothing to do with marriage as I recall (forgive me the lack of exact reference to the thread from whence this came, and it's likely a paraphrase as opposed to verbatim.)

 

...Humans are the only animals capable of deluding ourselves...

 

I have a number of friends who are really into the New Age idea that there is a huge shift in consciousness happening. They point to things like typical conventions failing, and that there are some folks who are capable of not only recognizing the changes but rising above the chaotic transgressors and choosing to go with the flow, so to speak. There are times I sit and look at the world and wonder whether that may not have some validity. <shrug> I guess we'll see. Or not. Depending on how much consciousness shifting we do!

[IRULE]

i don't agree , i think it would suck to date again i am 41 but tell everyone 21 and have been married for 19 years started dating at 13 my husband was not my first second third thats as far as I'm going we have our problems but i married for keeps. to each her own i guess or his.

[davep]

I would expect some dissent/disagreement.

 

IRUle:

If you're happily married, if you married "for keeps", and its working for you, congratulations; Im not saying that it "can't" work..just that its very unusual, and may not be the most healthy way to approach relationships today.

For every one of you, there are probably 100 depressed ones.

Witness the rise in Zoloft use, particularly among women.

I think its because we're living unnatural lives in relationships which depress us.

One "can" decide to buy a single car, and keep it forever. It might be good for them. It might be what they need, and what they like. But not looking at another, driving another, wanting another- ever- that would be relatively unusual and could be depressing.

 

 

2Side:

Thanks for the second on the motion. LOL

I agree that this is a separate issue to that of "morality".

Morality is relative. Id submit as evidence that there are "moral" swingers, and "immoral" priests.

 

I agree wholeheartedly that its a paradigm shift, a change in consciousness. The term "New Age" brings with it perceptions and prejudicies, so I try to avoid it. But, theres no difference to me in believing that killing people will bring me 72 virgins (Islamic Terrorism) or that bombing an abortion clinic will result in my reward in the afterlife (Chrisitian terrorism).

 

So, the old religious paradigm is not working any more, for many of us; and once that happens, we're free to not be miserable any more.

 

[2SidestoStories]

So, the old religious paradigm is not working any more, for many of us; and once that happens, we're free to not be miserable any more.

 

With the rise of population, there is bound to be a rise in difference of beliefs. Within any given social context, any group of people, there will always be at least one who "thinks differently" or is the "black sheep" of the group. I have found myself surrounded by such people, and I absolutely love it. What I have come to realize is that even the black sheep have thoughts like other black sheep out there, and that like-minded individuals will tend to group together. It used to be that Christians were the outnumbered and "weird" ones.

 

It is all too easy to label something as "good" or "bad," "Right" or "Wrong." It is another thing entirely to sit and peel off the label to see what may lie beneath.

 

It's my take that beliefs become beliefs for very valid reasons, and I'm personally trying my hardest to be as open to ideas that differ from my own so that I may find ways in which to expand my own limitations. I know there are things that for me are definite no-no's today, but not too long ago, I was under the impression that marriage was indeed a "forever" situation. Now, I'm more apt to believe that my particular marriage was nothing of the sort. I still feel that divorce is a horrible thing. I know from going through it! But again, I still definitely believe in love, and I'm open to the possibility that I may be satisfied with one other individual in the form of a life partner at some other point in my life. For all I know, that person may already be in my life, and I just have to look at him in a different way.

 

For me, that is what life is about, though: seeing things a different way; finding the way of looking at something that makes my eyes bug out less; figuring out what way life experiences communicate to me the most clearly, then taking that set of thoughts and building onto the foundation of the person that I am using the different tools I find along the way. At the very core of my being is the creator of my life; the artist responsible for seeing the world through my eyes. Me.

 

Golly. I think there must be something about the bunny ( ) that just inspires me to ramble like a fool!

[moimeme]

I think you attribute the cause of the problem to the wrong thing. It is not 'marriage' that is the problem.

 

It is the attitudes, beliefs, and behaviours that people bring to marriage. And perhaps you are right. Nobility, sacrifice, unselfishness, and caring used to be virtues that were revered. Now you're a 'doormat' if you are unselfish, 'codependent' if you are loyal enough to try to stick it out through problems, and ever conscious as to whether your 'rights' and happiness are being abrogated rather than whether you are abrogating the rights and happiness of others. It is more likely that people are unsuited to marriage than that marriage is unsuited to people.

[2SidestoStories]

Moimeme, yet again you have very eloquently stated ideas that I have yet to formulate past the "weird inane babble in my head" state.

 

Bravo!

[davep]

I like that thought.

 

"People are unsuited to marriage rather than marriage unsuited to people".

hm.

 

Heres something to consider- perhaps.

 

There have always been selfish people, (called by another name) as your post implies. There have always been abusers. There have always been cads, brutes, ruffians, tramps, etc. Human nature hasnt changed too much, really.

 

Therefore, if "people are unsuited for the institution"

yet, the "institution" is dependent on people..

perhaps the basis for the institution itself is flawed, and could only be maintained by imposing guilt, shame, ignorance etc.. which no longer work.

 

In short, the difference between people in 2003 and 1203 is intellectual honesty- vs submitting to the imposition of shame and ignorance by others.

 

Example: In the past, a womans priest and mother would advise her to stay in an unhappy marriage- or suffer the wrath of god or something.

Today, she gets a counselor or talks with the "nice man at work".

 

The problem is the same. The woman feels the same way.

There are just more options for the solution.

 

Although I do agree that sometimes, we all excuse negative behaviors with the latest psych buzzword..but Im glad that at least we dont ignore it.

 

Thats my 3 cents. LOL

[2SidestoStories]

The problem is the same.

 

And the problem is?

 

There have always been selfish people, (called by another name) as your post implies. There have always been abusers. There have always been cads, brutes, ruffians, tramps, etc.

 

And there have always been kind, generous, unselfish people. There have always been honest folk, as well.

 

IMHO: The problem is that too few people are willing to own up to problems. Too many people are willing to pass the blame. Too few people are willing to accept that "the problem" may be their own conceptions or misconceptions. Too many people are able to see how "this person did this horrible thing to me because they are a _______ (insert various labels)." Too few people are willing to be honest with themselves, and are therefore unable to be honest with other people.

 

Human nature hasnt changed too much, really.

 

Nope. It surely hasn't.

[Tony T]

I think people in particular cultures, such as in the United States, have evolved emotionally in most cases to hope that marriage will be a forever thing while facing the inevitable fact that when one or the other no longer wishes to be in the union, actions are set into motion to terminate it. I have known many young women who won't even change the names on their driver's licenses or credit cards "in case it doesn't work."

 

My own opinion is that this attitude has been passed down generationally, that parents in general do not enstill a sense of committment in their children...not just with regards to marriage....but agreements of all kinds. The courts are filled to the brim with people who do not honor their contractual obligations, who don't do what they promise to do in all aspects of life. Marriage is a very scary thing to enter into these days. There is no way of reading the mind of the other person, who may pay lip service to the "forever" thing but who may feel that it's a go until the chips are down. Many people have great expectations of marriage and when those aren't fully met, they adjudge the union as being a failure.

 

Many people choose to use the possession of children to lengthen their union, or to be a distraction from the relationship for a period of time. This is a dangerous thing because the children then become exposed to two adults who are basically using them for selfish purposes rather than supporting their healthy growth.

 

I really don't have all the answers. I don't know how many loving, supportive marriages there are out there. I know they exist. But I am also very aware that a lot of marrieds live in a state of quiet desperation, some because they made bad choices, some because they were a bad choice, and some because they should have been nuns or priests.

 

I heard someone, don't remember who, say that two people should ask themselves prior to getting married: "Will the world be a better place because the two of us joined together as life partners?" I think that's a good question to ask. And, when people get married I think it's a good thing to be ready to make things work. However, only very special, generous, open minded, forgiving, loving people are equal to the task and I don't think the world is producing a lot of those kinds these days.

 

I've always said that marriage does not take place in a church, notary public or at a justice of the peace's office. Rather it takes place in the hearts of two people who are bonded spiritually and emotionally in a way that transcends comprehension. It doesn't happen often. But when it does no man is able to put that assunder.

[davep]

Clarification per request:

 

I was referring to the hypothetical "problem" , as an illustration, when I wrote:

"The problems are the same".

 

ie: an unhappy marriage partner in 1230AD and in 2003 AD may have an identical problem.

[moimeme]

Rather it takes place in the hearts of two people who are bonded spiritually and emotionally in a way that transcends comprehension. It doesn't happen often. But when it does no man is able to put that assunder.

 

Golly, there, Tony. People might start to think that under that grumpy exterior lies the heart of a romantic!

[2SidestoStories]

I've been thinking a whole bunch about the notion that marriage may be an outdated concept. Obviously, my immediate response was to agree. However, considering what Tony has to say, as well as Moimeme, and IRULE, I've sat and internalized. I've also read some of davep's other posts, and have to wonder whether it is those of us who have been hurt recently who are more inclined to make the excuse that "marriage," conventional or otherwise, is in fact the problem.

 

For my part, I think that 'conventional' marriage may work for some people, but did not work for me. I would love to blame the circumstances on my choice to leave my husband, and in fact often times do: he quite literally has emotional and mental health issues. I have two small children that I will have to raise on my own now as a result. This is not something I "signed up for" when we married. It was something that his family was apparently well aware of, however, so the feelings of betrayal I have are growing ever farther reaching. On the other hand, I realize that the dangers of focusing too much of my time and energy toward loathing these people is not only counterproductive, it is also destructive.

 

To make matters worse, I am what you could call an optimist to the point of stupidity. I keep believing that perhaps my ex will 'come to his senses' and stop treating myself and the children like "bad toys" that he has to punish constantly. I have had to accept that this is not likely. Oh, and to bring another point that dave originally mentioned back into the argument: his family is Catholic, and I am agnostic (to the best of my ability to describe myself in terms of religion) and they believe that my choosing to divorce my husband is WRONG on many many levels. It is my "duty" as his wife to stand by him, take whatever he dishes out, and accept it silently. Same goes for the kids, in their mind! Mind you, they already did not care for me much: I did not want a big wedding, nor did I choose to get married in the church. I did not intend to be disrespectful to their faith, mind you; I just felt it would be inappropriate for me to "play Catholic for a day."

 

I did not marry my husband with the intention of ever divorcing him. I did not marry him with the intention of "taking him for an emotional ride," as he has accused me of doing. I married him because I loved him and really believed I could spend the rest of my life with him. But as I said before, I did not anticipate that he would turn to anger and suicidal behavior; emotional 'blackmail' and mental abuse. Even after having kicked him out of the house because he refused to get help for his anger/depression (gave every excuse under the sun for not, including "I don't need it!") he has continued to lash out and be awful. His behavior since then has only cemented my resolve that leaving him was the right thing to do.

 

I know that the conventional view is shifting; that more often now, people are encouraged to leave abusive situations, so as to help prevent the perpetuation of the abuse cycle. What is frightening to me is that the "Get out!" attitude is there, but the "Now you're on your own!" sentiment is as prominent. I consider myself fortunate enough to have recognized my own strength and resolve; I know that my children and I are going to be fine, because I believe in my ability to raise them to the best of my ability; to provide them with a safe and loving home. But it is certainly not what I expected, nor what I ever wanted. The alternative, however, is far far worse.

[moimeme]

2Sides

 

You may or may not know that some similar issues existed in my last relationship. Fortunately, he was not at all abusive but his emotional and mental issues made it impossible to live with him. So I get how that can be.

 

What is frightening to me is that the "Get out!" attitude is there, but the "Now you're on your own!" sentiment is as prominent.

 

The services for abused women in your area don't include support after the fact?

[2SidestoStories]

The services for abused women in your area don't include support after the fact?

 

There are LOTS of services for victims of domestic violence. However, support for men and/or women who claim "emotional/mental" abuse goes only so far as, "Here is a list of psychiatrists/psychologists and their fees for therapy." It's one of those intangibles that has yet to be classified and labelled carefully, put on the shelf for later diagnosis, etc.

 

Maybe your perception is something I ought to consider, however: "Impossible to live with." My ex's behavior after the booting out has been far more ridiculous than it ever was during the marriage. I don't throw the word "abuse" around. (I'm not saying that you implied that I did, mind you!) However, he is and remains impossible to live with. That actually makes a lot more sense than trying to understand his destructive and cruel actions. I guess my intellectual curiosity combined with this "bleeding heart" attitude has to be completely shut off in order for me to be able to get appropriately disentangled from him. What makes this split the most difficult of all is the fact that we have the children together. I guess that's what lawyers are for, though. <sigh>

 

Thank you again for your insight Moi. I truly appreciate it.

[moimeme]

Guess my intellectual curiosity combined with this "bleeding heart" attitude has to be completely shut off in order for me to be able to get appropriately disentangled from him.

 

Believe me, 2sides, I've been there. I still feel a failure for not being able to figure out a solution. I pride myself on being loyal and on being a problem-solver and yet I couldn't solve this problem nor manage to to defeat the depression and stress it caused me. I hate that I felt I had to quit or be crushed. It shattered all my illusions of being strong in the face of difficulties.

[davep]

Well, it has been enlightening to read the input.

 

I think in each of our personal situations, one person can conclude that the other party "has problems". For example, where one may believe, (and be correct from their point of view) that a spouse has an emotional problem..

the other may believe that he is being placed "emotional no win" situations, and is being driven crazy. So, I guess theres "2 sides" to each of these issues.

 

In the vast majority of situations..I contend that if we werent forced to live with one another, we probably wouldnt choose to, after a certain period of time.

 

I think the posts here have proven that the concept of

Marriage for Life is not just an "outdated notion",

but rather a silly notion- from the beginning of it's inception.

 

Without guilt, shame, oppression, or ignorance being imposed by a church or by peers/parents etc.. virtually no two people would ever choose to stay together forever, while forsaking all others.

 

Those who have been able to do so, are clearly in a very, very, small minority.

And thank you all- Ive enjoyed it- sorry if I offended anyone.

[moimeme]

one may believe, (and be correct from their point of view) that a spouse has an emotional problem..

 

2Sides and I were talking about genuine, diagnosable disorders, not just 'emotional problems'. Having said that, people with disorders are often unable to comprehend the effects of their behaviour on others. It is common for the disordered person to blame the non-disordered partner and claim that they actually suffer something wrong mentally.

[2SidestoStories]

2Sides and I were talking about genuine, diagnosable disorders, not just 'emotional problems'.

 

Precisely. This is not just about someone who is having a bad day, week, month...life? This is clinically diagnosed stuff that medication has yet to even help put this fellow on a semi-even keel. Davep, I invite you to read the rather jumbled synopsis of my situation beginning with the thread titled "My Wife and I" and then continuing into "Smoke and Mirrors" (forgive me for not knowing how to directly link you to these threads.)

 

His erratic behavior and suicide threats continue today. He swears up and down that there is only one "reasonable" solution to end our marriage, and that is for "someone to die." This is not a threat I happen to take lightly, and I certainly do not want my children exposed to it!

 

Pardon my defensiveness.

[davep]

Im sorry, I communicated poorly there-

I wasnt referring specifically to your personal situation, I meant it as a generality or example of what is commonplace. I'm sorry for your situation.

 

After back-reading the thread I do understand why you thought I was referring to your particular situation, and I apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

Clearly, some are clinically and seriously disordered; (is that a word? LOL)

In my case, for example, my wife has a thyroid disorder/depression which has been diagnosed- and is being treated.

 

But, unfortunately, even with the reality of this condition, it doesnt stop her from considering me as "the problem" . Also, she sometimes (more lately) drives our kids nuts with nit picking, overreacting etc- and rationalizes that they too, are "the problem".

 

In her mind, she is correct. But it's simply not the reality, from my perspective.

So, then, I am accused of "not seeing" or "in denial" or "not supportive".

 

This is really what I had in mind as i wrote.

[moimeme]

Have you tried going to a counsellor to have a third party sort out where 'the problem' may lie?

[davep]

Hi, yes- we attended some brief counselling, about the same time she was diagnosed with mild Hashimotos syndrome, which is a disorder of the thyroid and affects her moods, etc. It has been helped with synthroid.. and zoloft.

 

In the interest of a shorter post..I think its more like this:

We married at 21, and are now early 40's.

Weve grown and changed.

And we are just very very different now.

 

For her taste, Im too lazy, tolerant, spineless.

She's thought that she could have "done better" and as much as verballized that. perhaps she could have, and should go do so now.

 

For my taste, she's too opinionated, rigid, intolerant, and narrow minded.

My family, and my older daughter can't stand her, to the point of not communicating at all with us. of course, she views it as "their" fault, and some of it is. But much of it is her- which she refuses to acknowledge.

 

She probably pre-menopausal, but shes always been sort of an opinionated stick in the mud, as I recall.

 

Anyhow, over the last 2 years or so, I basically can't stand to be in the same room with her, for very long. Its been 14 months since we hugged or kissed or had sex. And.. I dont really care. even that has to be "her way, or no way".

 

So, at the risk of sounding dramatic...I feel like I'm in some kind of prison around her, and I feel much better about myself, and about life, when we are not together. I'd guess that she'd probably say the same thing-

and thats why I believe this "marriage for life" thing is bogus.

 

People change.

[moimeme]

shes always been sort of an opinionated stick in the mud

 

And you married her because...?

[jenny]

davep,

i'm not sure what to say to you, except you have my sympathy. it's clear you're suffering, and she's taken a lot out on you. it's important to me that you understand she is actually unusual in this regard, most of the women i know are lovely stable women. they have troubles too, but they would never tell a man they could have done better except maybe in the heat of battle.

it's not too late for you, y'know? you have so much time left and i'm sure you've got a lot of love to share, but you gotta concentrate on forgiving rather than generalizing. your capacity is easily witnessed in the way you rethought about the other posters' opinions - a rare talent, really.

is divorce an option? you've definitely got to take action, because right now your aggression is misdirected. if nothing else, can you start taking action towards leaving? (i.e. go to gym, rethink finances, whatever?)

i don't know. i'm interested in your situation. can you see any positive steps to improve your relationship with her or with women in general?

 

xox j

[Fancy]

Hi Davep! I'm a new member here (and a fellow Virginian) and I've read this thread with great interest.

 

I don't believe that marriage is outdated or something that only ignorant or religious people remain in. God made us to be together. No man is an island, as they say.

 

I can, however, understand why you would feel the way you do. You have to remember, though, that not all marriages turn out the way yours unfortunately has. I can tell that you're quite bitter about the state of your life right now and I also sense that you're very lonely. Do you truly feel in your heart that your marriage is a lost cause? You mentioned that you and your wife briefly attended counseling. Is that something you would consider again, even if just for yourself?

 

I know that sometimes problems can seem insurmountable and completely overwhelming, but you can't remain this way forever. Maybe it would help to sit down and write out exactly what's missing in you, your life, and your marriage and then write down what steps you can take to rectify that. Your wife may or may not ever change, but you have to take steps to find your happiness. I'm not suggesting you divorce her or anything like that........I don't know enough about your or your situation to dare say anything to that effect. I think you need to start inside yourself and work your way outward. It seems that you're on an unhealthy, unhappy merry-go-round. Don't you think it's time you got off?

 

Good luck to you.....