Is she all in, or heart stuck in the past?

[BMI03]

Hi all.

 

First time here. Don’t know who to turn to for an outsideropinion so I thought I may get some advice here. Apologies in advance for the length.

 

I (35) have been dating a woman (33) for 11 months now. Whenwe started dating I was married, making my way out of the marriage. I still am,as separation/divorce agreements are being worked and signed. She knows thisand despite my indicating it could be two years from the time of our first datebefore I am a 100% free man, she agreed to stick it out with me through it. Inreturn, I have given her transparency of the process. On a couple of occasions sherequested to see emails I said I sent to my ex and to my lawyer, which I didand it eased her mind that she wasn’t being played. Now, without request I sendher any email exchanges between my ex and I because I don’t want her to have towonder, and I want her to be part of the decision making because she is my future

 

The good: I love her. And she loves me. She told me thatafter our first date she told her friends I was the man she wanted to marry.She has told me she has never had a connection like this before, and thoughnormally private to herself, she has told me that she has never felt such adesire to share so much about herself with someone, or make so many plans withsomeone. We spend every second around one another that we can. We are truly inlove. She tells me that every day, and has been brought to tears at anyconversations that invite the idea of us losing each other (ie. work, school,etc.). When she has problems, she wants to sincerely talk them through, whichshe describes as never being the way she operated in the past. She hadreservations with me earlier on regarding whether I was really moving forwardwith the divorce, but despite those earlier feelings that I think I mitigatedthrough including her, we have continued to grow close and now we have beentogether for 11 months. For the first time, she tells me she thinks aboutgetting married and doesn’t automatically get scared like she used to. I believeher when she says she loves me.

 

The bad: She had just ended a 6-7 year relationship eightmonths prior to our meeting. The relationship had traditionally been good, butended with several instances of physical abuse that drove them both to travelto their home countries (she (33 yo): Central American; he (28 yo): Middle East) She took thebreak up really hard, including panic attacks. In the time since they broke upshe had done a good deal of dating, with a couple boyfriends that lasted amonth or so, until her and I met. She shared all this with me as we got closer.After about four months in I realized that she still chatted over chatting appwith him on a semi-regular basis. She shared that while they were broken upover that time (during which she returned to North America…he never did), theyhad been so close over the 6-7 years that they still texted daily, and talkednow and then, and she would still help him with girlfriend like things (did youdo X…did you send in your Y…it’s your brother’s birthday…etc.). She shared thatwhen we had started dating she and he were still texting “good night” and “goodmorning” pretty much daily. The texting with him had slowed to less frequent,but when it happened it was more intense. Out of what I believe was fear tolose her, about five months into our relationship he told her he is coming tovisit, which she had to tell him no. She told me about this when it happened. Aweek later she told me they had a long skype talk where all of the old hurtscame out and she was able to for the first time really articulate to him howbadly he hurt her. I asked if I could see some of the texts he sent and heranswer after she told me about some of that and she hesitated and did not showme. She thought I may not be ready for that. Going forward, he would sendemails with old pics of them, links to emotional songs about being sorry, etc.Through this, she told me that she can’t just push people out of her life, andlike other ex-boyfriends she would still want to know she is friends with him,and care about how he is. One day at about the 10 month mark in ourrelationship I asked her if she still loves him. She told me that during thistime (about five months in) when he told her he wanted to visit, and then aweek later when he and her had the heated, that she needed to question herselfas to why she was still so emotional about it and as to whether she still lovedhim. She told me the conclusion she came up with was no, she did not. But thatshe would cry and be emotional when he would send pics or songs because itwould make her sad for how happy they were at one time. Nostalgic for what oncewas. Texts continued. One day I needed to use her phone for a work call and shenervously pulled her phone out and deleted a text app before giving it to me. Iasked her about that and she admitted it, citing that her ex’s misinterpretingthings he found on her phone was one of the things that had led to at least oneof the three instances of the physical abuse. It led to some tears a few weekslater when I realized that her deleting that app really bothered me even thoughI had no intent to look at anything. It made me lose trust in her. I textscontinue. I asked once since if I could see a text after she told me about himsending her an emotional song link. She said that she deletes his texts aftershe gets them because she doesn’t like his face being at the top of her phonelist of texts. She has reached out to him at times too, grated they be at timeswhen world events take place which could impact him, however unlikely. He triedcalling her late last night after sending another song to her about beingsorry. She called him back around 2:30am and after talking for an hour, told meit was a good talk because now she understands that even though he sends thosethings, he doesn’t want to fix things…he just likes remembering what they had.

 

Me on the other hand, I see it as something that ourrelationship will never get out from under and it will always play a part insome way. If no other way than make me always feel in my heart that I am asecond choice that that I have never and will never truly have her heart. It’shard to accept that, and even harder to rationalize that when all the otherthings she does seem to be geared toward loving me in the most amazing andattentive way I’ve ever been loved. But at the end of the day that may stillnot be enough if I can’t get my head around why this relationship with her exremains in such a fashion. I have tried to be as understanding, accepting, andrational as I can be. I don’t think that this individual is a physical threatto our relationship because he is far away and not coming back. However thetexts, as infrequent as they may be now, bother me. She wants to work on thiswith me and do what I need to feel good and make it right. But I am worried mytrust in her is shook.

 

Any advice you can all give me on your take of the situationwould be helpful. I could use some outsiders looking in to tell me what tothink, or what actions I can take that are within reason…I don’t want to be acontrolling individual and at the end of the day she needs to want to love me,not feel forced to love me.

Edited December 2, 2015 by BMI03

[kgcolonel]

Just a little input....

 

First, they were a part of each other's lives for 6-7 years....even when there are no kids, there is a huge piece of each others lives they have shared....she is reluctant to let go of that. I personally think weaning herself from him would be healthy for her and for the relationship. One way to do this is to become somewhat less responsive in the overall communication. This sends a message that she is focused in another direction, you.

 

Secondly, I would want to talk to her about how this makes you feel. She deserves to know (not to make her feel guilty or wrong or shamed) how you are feeling in the relationship. A heart to heart talk before the hope that sounds as though is fading is gone....would appear to be most beneficial.

 

Thirdly, a discussion and some research on boundaries might help as well. Needing to check each other's phones and communication seems to be very errosive to a relationship.

 

Good luck to both of you.....

[BMI03]

Just a little input....

 

First, they were a part of each other's lives for 6-7 years....even when there are no kids, there is a huge piece of each others lives they have shared....she is reluctant to let go of that. I personally think weaning herself from him would be healthy for her and for the relationship. One way to do this is to become somewhat less responsive in the overall communication. This sends a message that she is focused in another direction, you.

 

Secondly, I would want to talk to her about how this makes you feel. She deserves to know (not to make her feel guilty or wrong or shamed) how you are feeling in the relationship. A heart to heart talk before the hope that sounds as though is fading is gone....would appear to be most beneficial.

 

Thirdly, a discussion and some research on boundaries might help as well. Needing to check each other's phones and communication seems to be very errosive to a relationship.

 

Good luck to both of you.....

 

Thanks very much kgcolonel. I appreciate your taking the time to read through the length of it.

 

I agree that weaning off of it would be great. I guess that the part that bothers me is that after a year and a half since their break up, and 11 months since we began dating, I would have hoped that the weaning off would have been down to "happy birthday" texts, or "tell your sister congrats on her new daughter", not 2:00am texts of songs about being sorry, followed by hour long conversations to clarify what the text meant. I fear I could be married to this women with children of our own years from now and still have this guy sending old pictures of them together playing with her emotions. So I think weaning off it is good, and she has certainly progressed that. I guess I just still worry about how much it still feels like the kinds of conversations that happen in the weeks and months that follow a breakup, not typically a year and a half later. She talks to other exes frequently who she is friends with and their relationships are long since over and I have no problem with those because they have very obviously gotten into the friendship status. This one still feels like a fresh breakup status a year and a half later.

 

And we have talked about how it makes me feel. We are both committed to sharing how things make us feel, and working through problems. There have been several tear filled conversations over it. She is understanding when we talk, and wants to fix it and do right by me. And I am equally trying to be patient and understanding. I'm just not sure why she has never made a bigger effort for full disclosure the way I did with her, to make her feel included and safe. Having to ask for that level of inclusion doesn't give the same feeling of safety at all. I have shared communications with my ex and lawyer showing her definitively that I am auctioning what I am saying I am. I guess I just hoped that she would do the same for me. She has shown me some brief text back and forth between them, but I have never saw anything that ever made me feel she has let him know they have no future. And that hurts.

 

It's not about checking each other's phones. I have never snooped hers and she has never snooped mine, even with all the opportunity in the world to do so. It's not about making someone feel the need to share. It's about wanting to do right to ease the worry of your partner by donating that share openly. I did so to make her feel comfortable, and I guess I am realizing now that it hurts that I was never let in the loop in the same way. Add to that the continued communication and deleting text apps for fear of my reaction, and it's left me with a pretty big trust hole in my belly unfortunately.

 

Thanks again for all your help. I appreciate the insight.

[oregon0011]

Well she is obviously hiding things from you. I would guess she is saying things to him you would not want to hear.

 

I was in a similar situation. Met a girl and she mentioned an ex. We hit it off. Saw each other often. As time went On I realized this guy played a big role in her life and she would not move on.

 

It started as "he is an ex and we communicate because of finances we shared". They were also broken up 10 months, and she told me he used to hit her.

 

Then by month two I find out she is paying his bills. He is a druggie. Then near the end of month 2 I find out they see each other weekly and lay around and hug etc. but she claims it is "not romantic". That she loves me BUT can't just let the other guy be alone as he has nobody.

 

Long story short I bet she is hiding a lot from you and doesn't want to be alone.

[BMI03]

Well she is obviously hiding things from you. I would guess she is saying things to him you would not want to hear.

 

I was in a similar situation. Met a girl and she mentioned an ex. We hit it off. Saw each other often. As time went On I realized this guy played a big role in her life and she would not move on.

 

It started as "he is an ex and we communicate because of finances we shared". They were also broken up 10 months, and she told me he used to hit her.

 

Then by month two I find out she is paying his bills. He is a druggie. Then near the end of month 2 I find out they see each other weekly and lay around and hug etc. but she claims it is "not romantic". That she loves me BUT can't just let the other guy be alone as he has nobody.

 

Long story short I bet she is hiding a lot from you and doesn't want to be alone.

 

Ouch. Thanks for sharing oregon0011. I appreciate it.

 

I know she isn't hanging out in the physical sense in this case, since he is half a globe away, but I know that more conversation has happened with him in a mutual way than what she lets on to be just politely responding to him. I understand that this guy was a big part of her life for a long time, and moving away from it is hard. I just worry that whether I want it to or not, her actions, or even just my perceptions of her actions based on my gut feel, are chipping away at my trust for her. I believe she loves me, and I don't want us to lose each other because she has a need to keep this other relationship alive in some form that's less than romantic, but more than friends.

 

Sorry, I had been off for a while. Would love to hear if any more input.

 

oregon0011, what happened eventually in your situation if you don't mind my asking?

[carhill]

When do you expect your D to be final?

[BMI03]

When do you expect your D to be final?

 

Thanks for checking this one out too carhill. Signatures should be obtained to finalize by end of this month.

[carhill]

IMO, if no coparenting issues arise (as applicable) and dissolution occurs on schedule, you'll have a clearer view of her commitment by spring (in the north). I'd table any analysis until the divorce is final and clear. Then, see how things go. In the interim, there's lots to enjoy day by day.

[kendahke]

She is gaslighting the hell out of you.

 

She is untrustworthy and is not emotionally done with her ex.

 

As long as she give him entree into her life, she will always be emotionally involved with him.

 

You need to set her adrift and find someone who is not deceitful and shady like she is. You're too old for this messiness. She is, too, but she's just pathetic and tragic.

[BMI03]

IMO, if no coparenting issues arise (as applicable) and dissolution occurs on schedule, you'll have a clearer view of her commitment by spring (in the north). I'd table any analysis until the divorce is final and clear. Then, see how things go. In the interim, there's lots to enjoy day by day.

 

Very fair comment. And something I have put consideration into and why I have not pushed harder on being brought in the loop. But it still doesn't feel good to see that you are being terribly forthcoming with someone and not receiving the same. While a marriage is more grand in the view of the law, she knows the back story and knows I was never in love. She equates it as a big item for sure though, as most everyone would. And as you may expect, knowing my marriage was never based on love, I am equally as intimidated by her lingering past relationship which is not close to status of being married, but was certainly filled with real and true love for one another.

 

It would be a bigger debate to argue which situation is a more intimidating past relationship for a partner...married but never in love, vs. not-married but madly in love, but that's one we have decided not to have because we know we both just want more of one another for ourselves.

 

But your point is a good one, and it's a point in time that I know she is waiting for as well. Perhaps its hard for her to completely let go while she thinks that is still a potential vs. a sure thing.

 

Thank you again for granting my request to take a look at this thread too carhill. I really appreciate it.

[kendahke]

The ONLY reason, barring the rearing of minor children, why someone who is in daily contact with their ex won't show you what she's saying is because it will destroy your feelings for her and she's trying to manage you to keep you on the hook.

[BMI03]

She is gaslighting the hell out of you.

 

She is untrustworthy and is not emotionally done with her ex.

 

As long as she give him entree into her life, she will always be emotionally involved with him.

 

You need to set her adrift and find someone who is not deceitful and shady like she is. You're too old for this messiness. She is, too, but she's just pathetic and tragic.

 

Thanks for reading through the length of my post kendhke. I appreciate it.

 

I agree with some of your statements. Fearful of others. I am hopeful that some are not the case.

 

Right now, I do have a shaken trust in her. As carhill pointed out, the divorce piece is something that I can't ignore, and while we are agreed with one another to be in a committed relationship, I feel the need to be careful in what expectations I impose given that it can all come back to "Ya, and you are married.". I don't have much of a defence for that, right? She has asked to be with me through this process despite my initially indicating that maybe waiting was best, and so I feel that I should also be patient with her, respecting that she is making a leap of faith for me which I couldn't ever ask her to do.

 

I do believe she is gaslighting me (I had to look that one up!). I do believe she at least was not emotionally done with her ex. She admitted that to me herself, that those conversations five months in were of surprise to her even that they impacted her so much, but she told me that they caused a reflection point and she determined she doesn't love him any more. With communication with him continuing, its hard to know for sure. But there is certainly some sort of emotional attachment still there that I don't know how to manage my feelings about.

 

I feel like the idea of remaining friends with her exs is fine, and healthy. But that comes after some time to go their separate ways and heal. That hasn't happened yet here to my view. Over the holidays he texted, they talked about family stuff, and he found out that she was coming to my parents home town with me. He knows that's a big step for her and he got to the point that he told her he thought it was best they don't talk in the new year then. She didn't answer, and he blocked her. She shared this text exchange with me when. I asked because she told me to just ask when feeling anxious about it. I also saw that on Christmas day, a few days after they talked, she sent a "Merry Christmas" text to him at a time she was upstairs and wanted to be alone without me because of something that happened that made her sad. She said it wasn't about reaching out to him for support, but was because she didn't answer his last spill of 3-4 text around talking in the new year and so thought that the thing that made her sad may have come from bad karma from not answering him. Whole thing made me sick to my stomach that she would reach out to him when in turn her view of my interactions with my ex are tight and specific as to what is ok.

 

Anyway, I am rambling on now. Thank you again for the comment. My hope is that with the divorce papers soon behind us, that her commitment level will become more clear, as can my expectations of what's cool or not with her. I don't know where that will lead, but I am hopeful for it to land in a good place.

[BMI03]

The ONLY reason, barring the rearing of minor children, why someone who is in daily contact with their ex won't show you what she's saying is because it will destroy your feelings for her and she's trying to manage you to keep you on the hook.

 

Thanks kendahke, to clarify, they were daily when we first dated, unknown to me. They tappered off significantly to maybe once every couple of weeks by this past autumn. I think they have had text conversations maybe once every 3 weeks or so recently.

 

Not saying that's good news or something that I think is an ok level. Just clarifying the details.

 

Thanks.

[Sparta]

0P I don't know about you, I have never in my life had a girlfriend. Ever have communication with her ex, now if that's something new that's going on. it wouldn't be with me. I would not stick around. She's completely gaslighting her situation, first of all if a girl ever had any kind of communication like what I'm reading now, she would be out the door. It wouldn't even happen. She needs closure for her other relationship negative. OP to have your girl deleted text right in front of you, because she didn't want me to read it. That is total disrespect and hurtful to you. Because she's hiding something.! It obviously she knows that what ever are on those texts would definitely hurt you and probably change the whole outcome of the relationship. if you were that type of guy that would stand up to her and do something about it. since I've been on these forms for a few years now. I would read the threads, usually some guys unfortunate situation where his wife is cheating. guys out that I'm reading about because they're not men. They all seem to suffe from the Mr. nice guy syndrome. You have to put your foot down and be a man and the situation women look for that. Now that doesn't mean any form of abuse either physical or verbal l, stand up and be a man

[acrosstheuniverse]

What she's doing is so out of order. I don't think that you still being married excuses this continued contact, you are making active steps to imminently divorce, you forward your exchanges with ex onto her (does the ex know, by the way, that you do that?) to try and make her more comfortable... the only thing I wonder is, you said that you were 'making your way out of a marriage' when you met her, do you mean there was some overlap, aka an affair?

 

After such a long relationship a bit of chat chat like you say isn't so bad, if you're comfortable with it, checking in every few months or longer just to say hi, how's the family, although for a lot of people that's not appropriate and I understand that. But the very late night messages, sending songs about being sorry, discussing the meaning, are all totally out of line, that's like the equivalent of her carrying on a relationship with this guy. There should be no reason for them to keep needing to dissect the end of their relationship and sharing this level of emotional intensity... unless there are still feelings, which there clearly are.

 

Can you hang around to see if she gets done with her ex, and maybe if she starts to act more committed once you're officially divorced? You clearly love her. But I would find it hard to trust my partner if he was having late night text convos with his ex about the meaning of songs or any of that crap.

[BMI03]

What she's doing is so out of order. I don't think that you still being married excuses this continued contact, you are making active steps to imminently divorce, you forward your exchanges with ex onto her (does the ex know, by the way, that you do that?) to try and make her more comfortable... the only thing I wonder is, you said that you were 'making your way out of a marriage' when you met her, do you mean there was some overlap, aka an affair?

 

After such a long relationship a bit of chat chat like you say isn't so bad, if you're comfortable with it, checking in every few months or longer just to say hi, how's the family, although for a lot of people that's not appropriate and I understand that. But the very late night messages, sending songs about being sorry, discussing the meaning, are all totally out of line, that's like the equivalent of her carrying on a relationship with this guy. There should be no reason for them to keep needing to dissect the end of their relationship and sharing this level of emotional intensity... unless there are still feelings, which there clearly are.

 

Can you hang around to see if she gets done with her ex, and maybe if she starts to act more committed once you're officially divorced? You clearly love her. But I would find it hard to trust my partner if he was having late night text convos with his ex about the meaning of songs or any of that crap.

 

Thank you acrosstheuniverse for reading the lengthy post. I really appreciate it.

 

To answer your question on overlap, yes and no. What I mean is, my ex and I had separated well before meeting my new girlfriend. However, I stalled on starting the divorce process. More a case of being so relieved to be out of what was an oppressive relationship, I didn't want to rock the boat with rushing it further, and was content if it needed to progress at whatever pace it took. It was a big step to stand up for myself in it and so I suppose I was basking in that unlikely success vs. keeping the train rolling. Anyhow, we share a young child together, and pretty close to the time I met my new girlfriend my ex needed a place to stay. She moved back in for a bit (with my child with her, it was hard to say no...we have a history like I said of her being able to do a great job of manipulating my tendency to carry a lot of guilt on my shoulders for any little thing), until I eventually moved out myself. The house was being used a bit as a poker chip a few times, bluffing as to who would stick around in it. With no one else involved I was fine to play hard ball. But once in the relationship that began to grow I had to take a harder stance. That was difficult for me. My new girlfriend was aware and supportive of my need to push the divorce activities ahead. I shared the whole complexities of things and she chose to stick by and help. My ex doesn't know about her yet, and I plan to keep it that way until the final signatures are on the divorce papers. She is vindictive and will absolutely cause issues regarding the parenting of our shared child. I told my new girlfriend that the process could take up to two more years potentially at the time, in a bit of an attempt to scare her off for her own good, suggesting we wait and see where we are when it's all done. But she insisted that she wanted to stick with me during it, and so I felt that if she was willing to make that leap of faith, then it was certainly worth my doing everything I could to share the inner workings of it, including the interactions with my ex, so that she could feel comfortable and safe.

 

Sometimes over that period, she joked that I am her pseudo-boyfriend, and can be her real boyfriend once the divorce papers as signed. This was just a common joke between us, but do you think it's the case that it's a indicator of how internally she may still be viewing this relationship? That perhaps she feels that the real rules (ie...emotional cheating) don't apply in this case because it isn't 'really real' until those papers are signed (kudos to carhill indicating reserving judgement until that point may be a good idea)?

 

To be clear, despite that joke, and perhaps mindframe, the manner in which we are with each other is nor 'pseudo'. She basically 'unofficially' moved in with me in August, and other than a night or two per week at her family's house we are with each other all we can be. We counted last night to realize that we have spent the last 16 days together day and night. She flew to my parents place with me for Christmas, and I see her family every couple of weeks or so.

 

And yes acrosstheuniverse, I truly do love her very much. And yes, I do find it extremely hard. It shakes my confidence in us, her feelings. It's hard because everything about our interaction points at me being the love of her life, except for this bit being a risk to our relationship that she seems to be ok with taking, and keeping me at a distance from. It doesn't feel good, and the worst is that even if it is nothing sinister in nature, my perception that if could be and that it's a dishonesty, could be enough to shake my confidence in us to an unrecoverable position.

 

I will keep hope for now that finalizing the divorce will allow me to have more conviction in my expectations on what is ok and what I consider emotional cheating.

 

Thank you all.

[carhill]

It would be a bigger debate to argue which situation is a more intimidating past relationship for a partner...married but never in love, vs. not-married but madly in love, but that's one we have decided not to have because we know we both just want more of one another for ourselves.

 

Here's something I learned about women, in general, in my journey.

 

1. Regardless of what you might say, very few will believe that you married someone you didn't love.

 

2. As long as you're married, and evidence of that exists, there's always a sensitivity to your milieu as a married person, regardless of what spin, honest or not, you put on it.

 

3. Heh, very important. Never speak well of an ex-spouse!

[kendahke]

while we are agreed with one another to be in a committed relationship, I feel the need to be careful in what expectations I impose given that it can all come back to "Ya, and you are married." I don't have much of a defence for that, right? She has asked to be with me through this process despite my initially indicating that maybe waiting was best, and so I feel that I should also be patient with her, respecting that she is making a leap of faith for me which I couldn't ever ask her to do..

 

But she's known that from day one and still chose to enter into a relationship with you. She could have just have easily said "You know, I'm not comfortable investing my feelings in someone who is legally tied to another woman. We can be buddies, but I can't be your girlfriend until you've got an executed divorce decree". That's not what she either did or said.

 

You've been transparent and completely honest and up front in all of your dealings with your ex, which, I dare say, do not show one hint of you still being so emotionally invested in her that you hide what you are saying to your ex in emails and other correspondences. Big huge difference between the two situations that the universe can fit through comfortably.

 

Here's the thing: I'm done with my ex. I don't send him xmas greetings, birthday greeting, I miss you greetings, go to hell greetings--nothing. Why? Because I am done with him. DONE. WITH. HIM. He's on block on my phone, email and facebook. We have nothing more to discuss about anything. She's not done with this guy. She seeks him out. Doesn't matter that it has tapered off. At this point in time, he should be out past the Kuyper belt, not trying to find a place to land. Or worse still: trying to put an emotional hook back in her cheek and her letting him do it viz: late night calls, etc.

 

If she is hiding her texts from you, then she's got something to hide and whatever it is, it isn't a positive thing for the esteem of your relationship. Now, I'm not one who condones snooping, but seriously, when someone's senses are raised to the point where they need verification from their partner that they're not being shady, then the relationship is in extremely serious trouble and sticking your head in the sand and giving her the benefit of the doubt when her actions scream that they don't deserve it will only end up being an unforced error on your part to yourself. You'll be causing your own pain because you want/want to see what you want/want to see, not what is actually going on.

 

Don't play the fool.

Edited January 6, 2016 by kendahke

[BMI03]

Here's something I learned about women, in general, in my journey.

 

1. Regardless of what you might say, very few will believe that you married someone you didn't love.

 

2. As long as you're married, and evidence of that exists, there's always a sensitivity to your milieu as a married person, regardless of what spin, honest or not, you put on it.

 

3. Heh, very important. Never speak well of an ex-spouse!

 

Thanks carhill.

 

1. Not to get into the details heavily but it had to do with a woman hurting herself significantly when I ended it, and a burden of guilt laid on which led to my giving in basically. She understands the details.

 

2. Totally agree. I feel it. The relationship is there, but not quite complete because of it right now.

 

3. Good to know. I don't think I have a lot to say about it period.

 

Thanks.

[BMI03]

But she's known that from day one and still chose to enter into a relationship with you. She could have just have easily said "You know, I'm not comfortable investing my feelings in someone who is legally tied to another woman. We can be buddies, but I can't be your girlfriend until you've got an executed divorce decree". That's not what she either did or said.

 

You've been transparent and completely honest and up front in all of your dealings with your ex, which, I dare say, do not show one hint of you still being so emotionally invested in her that you hide what you are saying to your ex in emails and other correspondences. Big huge difference between the two situations that the universe can fit through comfortably.

 

Here's the thing: I'm done with my ex. I don't send him xmas greetings, birthday greeting, I miss you greetings, go to hell greetings--nothing. Why? Because I am done with him. DONE. WITH. HIM. He's on block on my phone, email and facebook. We have nothing more to discuss about anything. She's not done with this guy. She seeks him out. Doesn't matter that it has tapered off. At this point in time, he should be out past the Kuyper belt, not trying to find a place to land. Or worse still: trying to put an emotional hook back in her cheek and her letting him do it viz: late night calls, etc.

 

If she is hiding her texts from you, then she's got something to hide and whatever it is, it isn't a positive thing for the esteem of your relationship. Now, I'm not one who condones snooping, but seriously, when someone's senses are raised to the point where they need verification from their partner that they're not being shady, then the relationship is in extremely serious trouble and sticking your head in the sand and giving her the benefit of the doubt when her actions scream that they don't deserve it will only end up being an unforced error on your part to yourself. You'll be causing your own pain because you want/want to see what you want/want to see, not what is actually going on.

 

Don't play the fool.

 

I appreciate your comments kendahke. They are a good balance and some things I think I need to hear. I don't want to be blind to them.

 

To make sure I am not sugar coating my side of things, I have to comment on the "...honest and up front in all of your dealings with your ex..." line. I did not mention the part about my ex moving back in temporarily when I went on my first date with the new girlfriend. I thought it was going to be more temporary and didn't know the date would lead to someone I would fall in love with. When the date went well, she asked to come to my place to visit and I told her about it all then.

 

I believe you are spot on with your comment about his wanting to put an emotional hook back in her cheek. I don't know what else to call it when he without warning starts text bombing old photos of the two of them to her and it makes her cry. Or sending songs about being sorry, missing her body, etc. I hold some pretty heated emotions towards him without having met him, knowing that he has significantly assaulted her three times. When it comes to the texting, I don't blame him at all. If he loves her, he wants to win her back...I get that. It's her willingness to be exposed to his attempts that breaks my heart and makes me feel like a second choice. I have explained this rot that it creates in my stomach. Her answer is that I need to look at the other 99% of the evidence on how she feels about me...she has basically moved in with me; spends all her free time with me; wanted to meet my parents; brings me to her family (big deal for her). And in a way, she's right....99% of the actions show that she is head over heals into this. I feel greedy to ask for 100%, but the reality is that with <100%, her heart is not really mine, but rather it's on loan because the place it wants to be is taken. A second choice. A case of 'choice A isn't an option any more, so I'll invest in choice B', but without her being able to go all-in.

 

I don't think I agree completely with the idea that exs need to go completely bye bye. But, I think that the interactions with an ex on friendship terms need to come somewhere down the road once the healing is done. It can't be a constant communication after break up and then just tapper into a friendship. That doesn't allow for the detachment of emotions. Even for his poor sake, the last texts the guy sent were about saying he is happy that at least one of them is doing well emotionally (regarding her visiting my family for Christmas). He's still hurting and pulling for sympathy. And whether she sees it or not, her reaching out is giving it to him and building his hope that they are still each others and I am just a footnote.

 

Sorry, I am rambling a bit. I want to bring this up with her again. We have discussed it several times now over the course of the relationship in tear filled conversations that were full of calmness and patients, but with no real resolutions aside from knowing they talk much less now and she expects it to tapper off more, and that I need to look at all of the other evidence that she truly loves me like she has not loved anyone before. And also of course, that I need to be patient because this is nothing compared to the fact that I am still legally married, and because of my child with my ex, she will never be 100% out of our lives. That's the trump card that I feel I can't play past when this is being discussed.

 

It's that point that makes me feel that I need to bite my tongue a bit now, show the patients she has asked for, get my divorce signature this month, and then have another conversation with her where I tell her that I want to understand from her if there is a mental shift now from "pseudo" boyfriend to boyfriend that we need to discuss. I know that signature is important to her, and I know she agreed to sign up for this. But I also know the burden that she has been carrying to be with me under these circumstances so I want to be understanding of the idea that exclusive or not, she may have been hesitant when with me and that could be part of the issue. I want to set the expectation that the signature means my expectations change too, and what was happening in the past is not cool, and can't happen any longer. My only fear is that she will agree, and do it behind my back. She has become accustomed to being secretive with her phone because of her past experiences with her ex, and I think I have lost faith after the app deletion, etc. that I will get full disclosure.

 

Anyway, sorry for the rant....lots to think about.

[BMI03]

I opened the door last night on a conversation around what this relationship means to her now vs. when I get the signature. I didn't prob too deep as I think that should wait until I have the signature, but I at least wanted to indicate to her that I know it's been hard at times for her to live in a relationship that couldn't be all that she and I would want it to be in this past year. Working to obtain the signature and being careful about sending my ex on a vindictive path prior has meant being careful at first with who we shared this relationship with, and meant that simple things like changing a facebook status or putting up instagram pics had to be done carefully. My girlfriend and I live in a different city than my ex so it's not an issue to be around our friends and colleagues here, but I want to appreciate that there are things that make it irregular and less than one would want for a relationship with the person they love. So I can be understanding about why at times, it may have felt scary for her to go all-in with her heart when the path to the outcome she wanted was not a normal path.

 

That said, my understanding in this situation doesn't mean I am not bothered, and it doesn't mean that I am ok with it indefinitely. It means that I want to show her now that I know that the last year has likely been hard for her at times, and the 'pseudo' status of this may have blurred the lines for her on what 'rules' of relationships apply. But when I have my signature and we don't need to be careful in the ways mentioned, my expectations are that her ex is not going to be an issue we need to deal with any more; that she's ok with their taking the time needed to step completely away from one another so that maybe some day in the future they can be real friends because they/she/he have healed. Or, the emotion she feels for him is too important to her, and I need to step away while she finds that healing herself and see how we fit when the time comes that she has.

 

Thanks again everyone for all of your comments. I appreciate everyone's advice (and feel free to keep it coming!).

[BMI03]

A bit of an update on things…sorry for the length….this is as much a mental download meant for me as it is an update for you all.

 

I appreciate all of the advice I had gotten so far on this. Since last I was here, going into the holiday season I decided to give her the benefit of the doubt and consider the situation I have put her in…being in love with a man who’s divorce papers are still in a holding pattern. While we may have both been honest and clear with moving forward in this relationship despite that, it’s fair to say that the fact that my papers are not yet signed could have an internal impact on her which has meant she held herself to a different standard or couldn’t fully commit. I would understand that. So for the time being, I had held my thoughts on it.

 

She came home with me over the holidays to visit my parents. It was great, and a big step for her since she had not met my family yet. Something that more recently she has told me has made her feel I am more committed to this. She met siblings, parents, cousins, friends, etc. It helped.

 

On the flight home after Christmas, she shared with me some text exchanges she had with her ex leading up to our trip. She told him about coming to meet my family, something he knew was a big step for her. He expressed that I probably wouldn’t like that they talk and she told him that I was aware. The conversation ended with him sending 4-5 texts suggesting to her that in the new year they shouldn’t talk anymore. Though he suggested this, I saw that she still, days later, sent him a “Merry Christmas” note on Christmas day. It bothered me since it seemed unnecessary under the circumstances of him asking her to not talk anymore. The explanation for that ‘Merry Christmas’ note was this: while home for holidays we had one mishap where my elderly grandmother wasn’t quite ready to see me with another woman yet. And so having to work around that a little bit hurt my girlfriend some, being as excited as she was to meet everyone. She needed some time that day so asked if I could leave her alone in the bedroom. It wasn’t that she was mad at me, but I think still mad or frustrated at the situation, desiring to be fully accepted by my family. Frustrated about the idea that as in love as we could be, she may be viewed as some as ‘the new one’. She explained that she thought that because she let her ex’s last 4-5 texts about not talking in the new year go unanswered, maybe the bad karma created the grandmother situation and so sending him a “Merry Christmas” may help (she believes a lot in karma and items like that). I told her that to me it looked like he would take that as her reaching out when he asked her not to. She agreed it wasn’t appropriate.

 

Something I didn’t mention in my initial posts about the contact she had with her ex. There was one day that I actually had opportunity by chance to read some of the texts. The second time I had asked if I could read the conversations between them, when she told me it was deleted, a few weeks later the conversation was left up on one of her devices. I was looking at it during a cooking session and was able to see the text from some short exchanges between them. They hurt a lot. They included: her reaching out to him (she told me she was reactionary to his texts, but not the instigator), in one such reach out to him it looked like she did so immediately after dropping me off at the airport; much more back and forth (she told me her answers were typically short and to the point); him sending songs and her letting him know how they made her think of him; her sharing pics of a Halloween costume she was going to wear; and most painful of all, telling him that she missed his skin one day she saw someone who reminded her of him.

 

Even with that, I gave benefit of the doubt that her feelings for me are strong, and took the leap of faith that she had taken for me.

 

Two nights ago, I told her that I wanted to talk and I explained to her what I had saw, and how I want her to be able to share things. The conversation was good. There were tears. I think not enough of my own, but instead from her. I did my best to create a comfortable and safe place for her to share, letting her know that I need to hear details. I told her that my trust was broken and seeing that and how it didn’t align with what she said, meant that it was hard for me to believe other things she says. I told her that I believe her when she says she loves me because I feel it from her…she will not leave my side and I don’t want her to, but that I also feel it when there are holes in what she tells me. Letting me know the truth hurts but at least fills those holes or gaps so that I can better understand.

 

She shared with me that she thought she was over her ex when we started seeing each other, and that even as much as she loved me, her commitment level to me was spotty because at the time I was still not far down the divorce process. I think that was fair. She said that the time that her ex said he was coming to visit, and she had that time to think, she knew she loved me, but that she knew she had feelings for him then too. She chose me, and told him not to come, but that she couldn’t just turn those feelings off either. She had been used to being with this guy for 6-7 years and so still felt the urge at times to reach out to him, see how he was doing. A sense of responsibility for him, and yes even then a sense of love for him. She said that the love was gone by that point where I saw the chat taking place, and the need to at least interact slowing, but she admitted that she was going through a bit of a continual divorce on her own of sorts….an emotional divorce from him. We both agreed this is more or less how it felt, but also that since the new year when she shared that she was coming to see my family and their decision to slow/stop talking, things have felt better on both of our sides.

 

It was everything I had felt but hadn’t heard, and it felt good to hear it. I told her that I understood and just needed to feel I was getting the truth from her. I respect that feelings are involuntary and I wanted her to feel comfortable in sharing with me…even the bad. She explained that sharing was not something she even had to do in her life and it was new at this level, but she was happy and never felt so understood by someone.

 

It was a good talk.

 

The next day, we got home from work and she was happy and bubbly. I didn’t realize it at the time, but I was bothered. As we made dinner, a song came on…the one that he sent to her that she told him reminded her of him. I got shaky and she asked why. I told her. I realized that I was feeling unresolved in the situation because at the end of the day prior, I was still left in a position of needing to believe or trust what she was telling me when the reality was that she hadn’t regained that trust yet. I needed to see words match the actions. I told her this, and said if she wants to fix it, I need to see the things she had been hiding from me. I needed to see what conversations with him were like.

 

She gave me her phone, showed me the conversation. It didn’t go back far enough to capture any of the conversations from the time that worried me, so there was nothing to be gained. I hoped that it would help speed up any regaining of trust by seeing the text match the words, but it didn’t. However, I realized though the conversation, that it wasn’t just about the trust…it was that I still didn’t feel fully heard. I spent so much effort the night prior trying to help her get over her fears of sharing (I have another post on here about an abusive boyfriend and why sharing has been super difficult for her) and see me as an understanding and safe place, that I sold myself short and didn’t express how painful it had been to find that text and read those words that broke my trust. So last night as the conversation continued, she expressed that she felt this relationship was over because she messed up and I she had been here before and I wouldn’t be able to trust her again…that she didn’t want to be in this three years from now and hear about it. I told her that it upset me even more that she would give up on us after all we had said about always talking to work on things. We continued to talk and I realized that I hadn’t actually expressed my hurt. So in teary eyes, I did. I told her how painful it was to see the woman I loved telling an ex she loved that she missed his skin. She joined me in the heavy tears and apologized profusely asking how we fix it. It’s what I needed. She doesn’t get emotional often, and when she does, its against her desires because she thinks it paints her as weak. She let herself be vulnerable with me upon seeing how much she hurt me, and I believe I finally got the validation that I needed to feel heard about it.

 

We held each other for a while and talked more about how going forward she will work on sharing with me; keeping me included. Even sharing with me if ever there are conflicted feelings. And I will continue to let my trust grow over time. It will be a dial that slowly moves, not a switch that we just flick on, but it feels like a new day today.

 

I know some here will say that I am being naïve, and maybe I am. But I love her, and I want to take the chance to make this work. I am optimistic that I was heard, and that she was truly sorry and impacted by what we both almost lost because of it. I feel today like that is enough to be able to move forward with more confidence in who she is and how she will include me in the future.

 

Thank you all for your help. I would love to hear from you on opinions, advice, criticism, etc.

 

Thanks

[BMI03]

Hi all,

 

So the new year had been doing great. Her ex stuck to his suggestion and had not been reaching out to my girlfriend. I truly do want them to get to a good place so that if being friends is important to her, that it can happen after an appropriate amount of disconnect. She wished him happy birthday in Feb, which was discussed in advance and I believe appropriate given her desire to eventually maintain a friendship.

 

She let me know last week that he had reached out again, to ask her if she was in a particular location (her schooling would take her to several different cities this year potentially). She let me know this so we could discuss an appropriate response. Something I would be comfortable with. She asked me what I wanted her to do. I told her that I am torn. I told her that on one hand I would love for this abusive guy to not exist on the face of the earth, and nothing would make me happier than her deciding ON HER OWN that she doesn't want to add unnecessary risk to our relationship by keeping in contact with an ex who she was texting inappropriately during our relationship, behind my back, and lying to me about it. But on the other hand, I don’t want to be a domineering man, setting out rules to obey, that could eventually have her resent me, or worse, just decide to do it behind my back, as the trust from that occurrence has not completely been rebuilt yet.

 

So in telling her that I can’t be the one to dictate that to her, I asked her what does she want in her relationship with him. Her answer was “I’m ok with blocking him if that’s what’s needed.”. Again, I told her that’s not my decision to dictate, and I want to know what SHE wants. In my mind, there is nothing to be gained here by me telling her what I need in this situation. If I have to dictate a no contact rule in this, then I am already prolonging a losing battle, where her need to be in contact with him is more important than mitigating the risk it creates to our relationship.

 

I asked her again, what does SHE want. She indicated that she didn't want to be rude, and that she wanted to at least be polite and answer his questions. I asked her if she thought he was over her, or if he would still send emotionally triggering texts. She indicated that reflecting upon it right there, she believes that he likely will never be ‘over’ her until she is married because of a sense of ownership he feels over her, but that if he sends anything like that, that she will tell him under no uncertain terms that he cannot do so and that such things will not be tolerated. So I felt ok, feeling that the appropriate compromise was, brief factual answers to his questions so as not to be rude, and no tolerance of and potential attempts to pull her into emotional conversations.

 

So a week went by. I would have hoped for her to let me know how it went when it happened, knowing the sensitivity around it, but instead I had to ask. She showed me the conversation. She answered that she wasn’t going to the place he asked about, and he said ok. Then, several hours later, she sent him another text telling him about a medical issue she found out about recently that was related to something that occurred a time they were together. This was followed by a brief back and forth over how she found out, what had happened back in the time they were together, and his wishing her to get well. I asked her why, after we discussed what was a reasonable level of interaction, did she prompt additional conversation with him. To me, this was unnecessarily expanding the conversation with him. She explained that at the time of this medical event, when he was with her, he didn't believe her. She wanted to tell him to show him that she wasn't weak like he had thought she was, and that it really was something. I asked why she needed to tell him that…that I didn't understand why she needed that validation from him. Her answer was that it wasn't about him, but about her, and her needing to right a wrong where someone (anyone) thinks she is weak when she is not. I told her that I just don’t understand her need to reach out to him.

 

I told her that I was not mad; but that I was very sad, discouraged, confused as to what to do or understand, and mostly tired of it. Just tired of the conversation. This was all last night, and I find myself this morning, not mad, but just tired. I sense that my heart is trying to not care in order to protect itself from getting hurt. It’s wanting to disengage in order to reduce my feelings to an apathetic place. I don’t like that it wants to do that. I love her dearly, and more importantly, I love loving her. Right now I feel like I want to just throw my arms up in the air carelessly and say “Fine, I give up. I surrender. Do whatever you want to do. I don’t care anymore and am just tired of the conversation.”, and then just let the relationship take its course, and if the end result is that this breaks down my feelings and trust further over time, then that’s where it was meant to play out to. But I don’t want that. I want to fight, and I want her to understand how hurtful it is for her to choose to keep this relationship with her ex going, even in its simplest but intentional form, instead of mitigating what I feel as a hurtful risk to our relationship. But I have said my part…I know the rest has to come from her, and right now I see her caring more about keeping that connection with her ex alive.

 

Anyway, I know this has become a long thread and may take anyone new a long while to read the background, so not expecting any advice specifically (though all is welcome)…just needed to get this off my chest.