Men who think as 'cocks'

[Radu]

This subject has been bothering me for some time, so bear with me and read down.

 

I am referring to a subgroup of men who do not completely fall in either mysoginist or patriarchic style behaviours.

These guys will be married, quite successfully too [by my country's standards], are loving husbands and good providers.

They respect their women [not all times but many times do].

They love their daughters.

They are the ones who lead in their families.

Their daughters tend to become either highly independent, to the point of fear, or to have low self-esteem ... regardless of their accomplishments.

 

But their way of acting in a particular situation is ... horrible.

By cocks in the title i meant the cock of a hen, the rooster that claims a number of hens [8 ideally i think] as their own females.

They act like them in a way.

 

They muscle in on a woman who doesn't have the backing of a man.

They think they get to call the shots, they become more assertive, their body language is telling of this.

They do this with women who are generally after a bad relationship, or after a husband died. Or even when her husband is not present.

There is not a sexual connotation to this, and they never outright say 'i know better, u woman'.

Long term single women [40, single, never married is not often seen here], are not phased by these guys, they have the experience to work around them or use them.

 

I'll give some examples :

- after my dad died, one of my grandfather's friends [2nd cousin] on my father's side was miffed when my mom did not run her decisions by him and elected to run them in the family.

He was very upset and even started spreading slanderous rumours about my dad's untimely death.

This guy is an old school abuser, with an enabler wife who even goes as far as to agree with him that they should cut out emotional help for their son who cared for them in their old age ... and give it to the other son who didn't accomplish much.

They said this with him present.

But he was not the only one to act like this, another older guy started acting the same way.

- a construction guy who worked on a renovation project would get agressive in terms of demands/body language [think towards cocky] when he negociated with a relative of mine.

When i was in the room and backing up my relative, he was apologetic ... even though i was constantly seated and as nice as i could be.

- after my uncle died, a distant friend came to his grieving widow to get back an circular saw with table of very good construction because 'it was his'.

She later found out it had belonged to her grandfather.

This was just 2 weeks after he was dead.

He was at the funeral, cried ... etc.

- wedding i was at last night.

Groom got dead drunk and at 3am in the morning the head waiter was agressively demanding of the bride that she tell him how many guests had left.

Wedding of 80, all spread out, there was a variation of 2 ppl missing/extra.

He was supposed to give the food that was extra to the bride and groom as for home at the end of it all.

I got into the discussion and 'slimyslug' [my new nickname for him], immediately found his neutral body language.

After that he started playing with some trays.

- a guy who is a distant relative at another family function got dead drunk.

He tried the cock thing with me from a new angle, the father role angle.

When that failed [to him it seemed it was a success], he asked me why i didn't hit on the 2 'wh*res' at the table. He actually said this.

They were 2 early 20's girls, somewhat ok looking, smart, funny, but also my 3rd cousins.

They were his direct nieces. o.0

 

Highly educated women in all of these instances, but in some other instances the guy will back off completely when he sees there is another 'cock'.

 

---

 

I don't know what label to attach to these guys [slugs is a good one for me ... worms is good too], and i can give more and more examples of this.

I would like to hear from the women reading this if they met guys like this and how did they deal with them when they had to keep working with them.

 

I find them from time to time and they absolutely disgust me; i keep smiling, try to get assertive body language on them [hand on shoulder, hand on elbow, lead the conversation, lead the interaction towards a conclusion].

I do not say outright what i think of them, because i keep needing them; i validate their good parts but say nothing of the bad parts/ideas in order to train them in their interactions with me.

Most of the times with a little truth serum [alcohol] they start talking like crazy, and they verbalise what i wrote in this thread.

Untill recently, interactions with them made me feel in dire need of a good shower ... to wash the filth away.

 

PS: I'd also like to add that i'm a guy who is a mix of a traditionalist and modernist.

I have no problems with women with good careers, with accomplishments, in fact they turn me on.

But i also like women who are ok with the standard age-old gender roles.

The feminine woman who likes to feel led even though you both know she can be independent.

 

These guys on the other hand do these things from a primal level, they don't rationalize them.

It's all instinct with them, they don't think it.

Quite frankly, the best label i heard of them is pre-cambrians ... came from my aunt. [from the age ... i hope you get it]

[Taramere]

I don't know what label to attach to these guys [slugs is a good one for me ... worms is good too], and i can give more and more examples of this.

 

I would like to hear from the women reading this if they met guys like this and how did they deal with them when they had to keep working with them.

 

This reminded me of a guy I had to deal with (client). Very controlling guy, and full of sh*t. I had a duty to try to keep costs down so I was trying to stick to the basics in the initial meeting. He wanted to rant forever...which can easily lead to an initial meeting costing £500 - with nothing achieved but a venting session (and one look at this guy told me he wouldn't pay up). So of course, I had to interrupt in order to bring back focus and stick to relevancies.

 

I could see he was not happy about this at all, and an alarm bell did sound. Anyway, I ended up having years of hassle from this guy...based on that one meeting.

 

It's a long and tedious tale, but basically he harassed me through various processes for years. I think the man has a habit of selecting female professionals and then putting in complaints against them. Likely he's driven by a combination of lechery and hostility towards women.

 

How to deal? In a professional tone, with the minimum of effort. Refusing to fall into either the victim/persecuting/unprofessional behaviour he's desperate for me to display. Somebody like that will drive himself into an early death as a result of all the hate and rage inside him. It will be good riddance to bad

rubbish.

 

PS. When I was a kid we kept hens and roosters. The top rooster was always very chivalrous to the hens...calling them over and pointing out food for them.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Taramere

[Radu]

Good thread. Just curious. Are you Turkish and or Armenian?

 

Neither, but i am from Eastern Europe.

 

Taramere, neither of these guys is the type to go for the long term hassle, but they are the type to have passive-agressive behaviour patterns towards the smart women who don't fall for their bull****.

 

I know girls raised by guys like these.

It's not something i want in a mate either way, because they go overboard in either independence or the opposite way.

[Taramere]

Neither, but i am from Eastern Europe.

 

Taramere, neither of these guys is the type to go for the long term hassle, but they are the type to have passive-agressive behaviour patterns towards the smart women who don't fall for their bull****.

 

This one's wife was in on it too. He was harasser-in-chief...but she would throw her whining tuppence worth in here and there. Very bizarre dynamic between the two of them. My reckoning is that by encouraging him in his harassment of female professionals, she would

 

a) divert his angry and controlling tendencies away from herself

b) deal with her own jealousy (towards other women).

[Radu]

Was he a part of any minority ?

[Taramere]

Yeah, I believe he was a member of the vexatious litigant minority.

 

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:_nGdhUPrpFQJ:www.netk.net.au/Psychology/VexatiousLitigants.pdf+&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShnJhqtKTyOOCbi0jUE0rQolOIR9nPz2w1SednRH2UF8tHLcie9DqCtlJ1W-KW3oF6uwBPvN3lYHDiNxqXI4g6ZN-H-mdLXxvczxg5wA5AvXqZfV8JrlnHVkVGAEgIGa-1jBcDY&sig=AHIEtbQKrvXm7IWID6G5OTLZ90I6y0-b9g

 

Other than that...no. White, middle class, upper-middle aged. He claimed expertise in all kinds of professions, but wasn't actually qualified in any.

 

Did you have a minority group in mind? Most of the minority clients I dealt with were women who'd married British men and were getting divorced from them. They were generally very pleasant to deal with, though sometimes language was a bit of a problem.

 

ETA...re the guys you mention behaving in a passive aggressive way....what are some examples?

Edited August 26, 2012 by Taramere

[Radu]

Thanks for the link, i'll read it ... i do know of a few ppl like that.

 

I suspected they were immigrants.

 

By passive-agressive i mean ... well :

- when they have a problem with you they rely on insults disguised well as jokes.

- they have this combination of stubborn and resentment.

- they always divert blame to others, and if you prove to them that they ****ed up ... they will divert it finally to you.

If you prove them again that they ****ed up, their last defense will be 'well, that's not what you implied'.

Basically they try to focus on one of the trees at the expense of the forest, to divert your attention.

All is done to make sure they don't suffer the consequences of their actions.

- they will pretend to be there for you, only to try and sabotage you behind your back.

 

Basically they have hostility towards you, but their first actions is to secure their ass before they actually say anything or do anything.

Their primary directive is to protect their own ass.

Incredibly but these ppl do well at their jobs, get promoted, become leaders.

Quite frankly i think of them as 'little bit*hes'.

 

I'll give you an example.

Recently we wanted to buy something custom made of forged iron.

This guy who is in his 60's comes over and in the first 1hr he starts talking of nothing but his problems without actually saying anything about it.

It's like those ppl who put samples at the supermarket.

It's out there, it's visible, curiosity gets the better of you so you ask.

But it's not like they actually forced you to ask, god forbid ...

So in 1hr as he was trying to seal the deal he said that his kid had drowned like 3 decades ago, he broke his hand 5yrs ago, he scams ppl when he rebuilds agriculture tractors [repairs them], he makes a ton of money out of making alcohol as life is hard [he was working for the company in question], has diabetes, almost went to jail as a scapegoat under the old communist regime ... told in a very sobbing way [over here what he said actually meant that he was a whistleblower and namedropper with the secret police].

He victimized himself so far, tried to be as nice as possible, tried to accomodate ... etc.

Before he left we told him that we will think it through [he asked for a very high price and then told us a story about how some german was surprised he didn't have to pay 5 times what he asked], and let his boss know ... we also told his boss the same thing.

He calls us 2 weeks later, telling us that part of the project is done, and when he can come to install them.

Then he accuses us [very violently] over the phone for deceiving him, that we owe him.

Basically over this medium [phone] he became very agressive, a phone tough guy ... now present in the internet tough guy phenomenon.

 

These ppl are ... constantly concerned at self-preservation but it's not a conscious level, it's deeper than that, it's engrained.

It feels like a learned response and you can see it in their body language.

They go from agressive at the edge of your intimate space to turning their heads away, but moving their body into your intimate space, and keeping their hands busy with something else.

Their legs are constantly facing you.

By keeping the head away and advancing they basically remove your option of feeling hurt, so you constantly stay there.

 

Amazingly enough, these ppl have problems thinking in terms of win-win situations.

For them win-win feels like they might lose something.

They prefer win-lose [with them winning] because it's a guaranteed win, with you winning none.

lose-win [them losing] is not an option at any point on the table.

These ppl do really good at their jobs, but to me it feels like they are absolute scum, the bottom feeders in the world, vile decrepit human beings.

 

PS: Some of these traits i see in myself as well, as a result of my grandfather and after that my school teacher's abuse, i am trying to stomp it out.

I suspect that many of these ppl have been more or less abused in their childhoods.

[Taramere]

PS: Some of these traits i see in myself as well, as a result of my grandfather and after that my school teacher's abuse, i am trying to stomp it out. I suspect that many of these ppl have been more or less abused in their childhoods.

 

You're probably right. What you're describing doesn't sound so much like the vexatious litigant I described as what I've encountered in older people during short visits to formerly communist countries. A combination of bitterness and mistrust.

 

Usually their English hasn't been good enough for me to communicate with them...but I could imagine that if I did, I'd hear the kinds of stories you describe. Which are probably true, in the main...and yes, it's not hard to imagine them bullying and griping their way into superior positions, and probably being quite competent in those positions (except in the matter of people handling).

 

Unfortunately, I think this is something that happens to a lot of people as they get older....but especially those who lived through hard times in the Eastern Bloc. Seeing younger people having time in the sun that they were never able to have. I got that strong sense back in the '90s and early 2000s when I went to those regions. Young, optimistic people who welcomed Western tourists warmly, versus old people from the communist era who would sit in the background glowering at the sight of people having a happier youth than they had. And, perhaps, fearing what capitalism might bring, in time.

[Radu]

You're probably right. What you're describing doesn't sound so much like the vexatious litigant I described as what I've encountered in older people during short visits to formerly communist countries. A combination of bitterness and mistrust.

Oh yeah, i've seen that ... in most former communist countries most of the ppl that vote in power the remnants of old communists are the old ppl, retired ppl.

 

Usually their English hasn't been good enough for me to communicate with them...but I could imagine that if I did, I'd hear the kinds of stories you describe. Which are probably true, in the main...and yes, it's not hard to imagine them bullying and griping their way into superior positions, and probably being quite competent in those positions (except in the matter of people handling).

It's a very interesting argument because in a way living under the communist regime was long term abuse.

Not in the sense of how we view abuse today, but as a form of 'background fear'.

Almost 10yrs after '89 we found out which ones of our relatives were the ones who reported my parents and others in their families to the secret police.

But i also think it's a remnant of the older, pre-communist system, especially in the countryside.

 

Unfortunately, I think this is something that happens to a lot of people as they get older....but especially those who lived through hard times in the Eastern Bloc. Seeing younger people having time in the sun that they were never able to have. I got that strong sense back in the '90s and early 2000s when I went to those regions. Young, optimistic people who welcomed Western tourists warmly, versus old people from the communist era who would sit in the background glowering at the sight of people having a happier youth than they had. And, perhaps, fearing what capitalism might bring, in time.

Looking back at the ppl i saw this kind of behaviour from it's generally those that were mature in '89, fully grown formed adults.

Some of those that had a college degree back then are not like this, they tend to not act this way, but there is deffinitely a correlation between education level and this kind of behaviour.

The youngest i've seen this kind of behaviour from is a 36yr old male, but his behaviour was 'light' and he in fact changed his perception over time, when he started to respect the female employer.

Older ppl, are absolutely hopeless ... those of them that are like this.

 

And quite frankly, i have horror stories with some of these ppl, they are literally hyena's.

Unfortunately this kind of behaviour will not die with them because they have kids.

With time, it will die ... but another half a century must pass untill then.

[Radu]

To add, i suspect that most ppl who end up in charge worldwide are similar in many of these aspects, as this is a form of social evolution to enhance self-preservation.

These ppl who are like this are rewarded for it.

 

It's just that the concentration of ppl who are like this here is ... amazing.

There is a bright side in all of this, you get to follow a crashcourse in interesting social interactions.

[Taramere]

To add, i suspect that most ppl who end up in charge worldwide are similar in many of these aspects, as this is a form of social evolution to enhance self-preservation.

These ppl who are like this are rewarded for it.

 

It's just that the concentration of ppl who are like this here is ... amazing.

There is a bright side in all of this, you get to follow a crashcourse in interesting social interactions.

 

There's a lot of similarity between stereotypical notions of leadership, and traits of the psychopath.

 

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:J0N0yj0qIYQJ:www.rsmtenon.com/~/media/Files/Risk%2520Advisory/Psychopathy%2520in%2520the%2520Boardroom.ashx+&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh03SiZvBt3PfjzHkjvu6ETgR7PNpvU8O46anlizT1L8L2zCUJEHI0shBlKUAAU7KHUrk4F5WsXlHb7sRlKks_O66QYdOZSzd7WzkNvGjojO6ZxrN2e7yy8bHqYpajI7hptanSS&sig=AHIEtbQqttaQaKOjH9vG-y-B1Dknu9h79Q

 

Which is something that we should all perhaps be a bit more aware of. Especially when it comes to the finance sector where ordinary people are trusting these people to invest their money wisely (and in the investor's interests). Installing these characters in high up places might be helpful to businesses...but only for as long as the business interests and the psychopath's self interest are aligned. It's certainly not too helpful to the people who have to deal with those individuals on a regular basis.

[Radu]

There's a lot of similarity between stereotypical notions of leadership, and traits of the psychopath.

 

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:J0N0yj0qIYQJ:www.rsmtenon.com/~/media/Files/Risk%2520Advisory/Psychopathy%2520in%2520the%2520Boardroom.ashx+&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh03SiZvBt3PfjzHkjvu6ETgR7PNpvU8O46anlizT1L8L2zCUJEHI0shBlKUAAU7KHUrk4F5WsXlHb7sRlKks_O66QYdOZSzd7WzkNvGjojO6ZxrN2e7yy8bHqYpajI7hptanSS&sig=AHIEtbQqttaQaKOjH9vG-y-B1Dknu9h79Q

 

Which is something that we should all perhaps be a bit more aware of. Especially when it comes to the finance sector where ordinary people are trusting these people to invest their money wisely (and in the investor's interests). Installing these characters in high up places might be helpful to businesses...but only for as long as the business interests and the psychopath's self interest are aligned. It's certainly not too helpful to the people who have to deal with those individuals on a regular basis.

 

On this subject, did you read The Black Swan by Nassim Taleb ?

Game theory adds an interesting perspective to what really caused the financial crysis, in that the mechanism to punish CEO's that don't do a good job are ineffectual, and that their performance is weighed a lot on how much they drove the price of their corp stock up ... even if in disregard for long term growth.

[Taramere]

On this subject, did you read The Black Swan by Nassim Taleb ?

Game theory adds an interesting perspective to what really caused the financial crysis, in that the mechanism to punish CEO's that don't do a good job are ineffectual, and that their performance is weighed a lot on how much they drove the price of their corp stock up ... even if in disregard for long term growth.

 

I haven't read it. It looks a complicated read...is there anything you'd recommend as an easier intro to the principles it deals with?

 

The bonus system, I think, is a big problem when it comes to the wrong people receiving big rewards. In some scenarios they're pushing for short term productivity that has hidden longer term costs...and, of course, they're doing so because it's in their own personal interests to get that short term productivity so that they receive their bonus payment. Regardless of the impact on the company in the longer term.

 

This kind of thing has been bugging me for a while. I worked in London a few years ago, and although expense is an issue I was much happier in terms of the people I dealt with. People talk about The Big City being a snake pit, but I found the people a lot nicer and easier to deal with than I find them in my home city. The oil industry dominates, where I live. Frankly, there are a lot of people who are as thick as sh*t, but who have made money either directly or indirectly out of oil - and they dominate here.

 

Take the inevitable Nietzschean/psychopathic mindset that the oil industry brings, spread it amongst people whose IQ struggles to make treble figures and add in the small town mentality with all its associated nepotism, and you have an environment where....well, let's just say that I can relate to what you're talking about in this thread.

[Emilia]

I think the root of it is class issues and a narrow-minded - often rural - mindset that comes from patriarchs running small communities in the past. It's more exaggerated in Eastern Europe than in the West because the industrial revolution uprooted old communities and families in Western Europe to a much larger degree. When new communities formed, they were often larger and a different mindset was required.

 

I always say the difference between Eastern and Western Europe is that in the latter there are higher standards of civility required. Social skills are expected to oil the communication and the middle class is much larger (I suppose when I mention Western Europe I sort of discount the Mediterranean so it's more Northern Europe really).

[Radu]

But these ppl are civil Emilia.

It's part of their repertoire.

They are quite manipulative, and civility is needed for that.

 

You are right about the uprooting of the communities.

I do tend to see it more in ppl from rural areas, and generally those that worked abroad mellowed down on this.

[Emilia]

But these ppl are civil Emilia.

It's part of their repertoire.

They are quite manipulative, and civility is needed for that.

 

You are right about the uprooting of the communities.

I do tend to see it more in ppl from rural areas, and generally those that worked abroad mellowed down on this.

 

My definition of 'civil' in this case:

 

 

• not interfering with others' lives
  
• not being patronising
  
• not being presumptious
  
• respecting diversity of views and opinions
  

The whole thing sounds excessively parochial

[Radu]

Hmm, i was thinking of civility more in terms of 'manners' and 'niceness'.

 

Under which agression, hatred and anger is concelead.

 

Very passive-agressive.

[Emilia]

That's the difference between Eastern and Western Europe. Seriously. This is why I don't want to move back home. I mean there is anger and hatred everywhere in the world and passive aggressiveness but in more liberal societies where people are educated, have the kind of life they want and take pride in who they are, there is much more tolerance. I suppose here I'm equating civility with tolerance and respect.

 

There is also the small and narrow minded life you get in small towns in the US (as proven by the threads on politics, abortion, etc) as well as in Eastern Europe. Those people literally need to get out more.