Don't know where to go from here...

[LAO73]

Apologies for a long post.

 

I'm mid 40s, wife late 30s. think my 12 year marriage is over, but I love my kids so much I don’t want to lose them. We’ve had a tough few years, have tried 2 different marriage therapists, and now keep going round in circles ending up in the same place, same arguments, same unhappiness, both of us thinking the other is being unreasonable. We have 2 kids 4 and 7, and living in a city without any family has been tough for both of us, but particularly my (stay at home mother) wife.

 

I’m not perfect. Particularly when things are bad and I’m exhausted, I can be grumpier than I want to be. When I’m utterly frustrated, I’ll curse – sometimes in front of the kids, and even slam cupboards or snap pencils in two. I get upset with myself for doing these things, because I don’t want to be that person.

 

Essentially, our marriage is fine unless I express my unhappiness about our relationship or something with the kids. When this happens, my wife reacts with a mix of anger and hurt. It doesn’t really matter how I express it (but I normally say “When abc happens, it makes me feel xyz…”) she takes it as an affront to our marriage because she thought everything was fine.

And when we start talking about specifics (the ‘abc’ of what’s happened), I either get denials – no it didn’t happen (like I’m just mistaken, when I know that it did happen) or if I provide more concrete examples, she says something to the effect of “you’re always keeping score ”. So it’s like I can’t win.

 

When I talk about how things make me feel, aside from getting angry and hurt by what I say, she makes me feel like my expectations are crazy – saying things like “this is just what marriage is like” or “things can’t be perfect 100% of the time” I’m not an idiot. I don’t expect them to be 100% all the time – I just don’t expect things to be as grim as they are as often as they are.

 

The first marriage therapist we went to told my wife she’d been neglecting my emotional needs. The second said my wife didn’t respect me. My wife denies that any of this was said. She even justified having an emotional affair because of some of the stuff I’d said in marriage counselling.

Emotional affair is over - guy is thousands of miles away, but they had spent time together when wife went to visit family and were then texting through the night and telling each other they loved each other. I found out because I knew something was up and snooped on her phone. But even 15 months later, she was still talking to him on Facebook / liking or loving his posts and was still listening to songs he’d sung – some specifically for her – i.e. heartfelt love songs – on the Smule app.

 

I earn close to $150k a year and have given her everything she wants materially. Recently she’s started working 1.5 days a week, which I think has been good for her. Before that, she was a full time SAHM, which is exactly what she wanted to do (there was a time before kids when she worked FT and I did freelance work, and she used to cry because she just wanted to be a SAHM).

 

Since my kids stopped nursing (so over 5 yrs ago), I’ve done their bedtime 5-6 nights a week. My kids, even now, have been terrible sleepers - sometimes waking up 5 or 6 nights a week (and sometimes more than once). I get up in the night with them nearly all the time. Maybe my wife does it once every 10 or 15 times they wake. I love doing bedtime with my kids, but also I’m happy to do it because I know my wife has tough days. I get up in the night more because I can cope better than my wife on lack of sleep.

We generally cook dinner and clean up together. Over the last few months, I’ve ended up cooking dinner and cleaning up afterwards far more than my wife. We used to have an unspoken agreement where she loaded the dishwasher and I emptied it. Now days, I do both most of the time else the dishes just pile up. I do as much, if not more grocery shopping than her. I buy her flowers and treats occasionally, and I rub her back when it’s sore. I feel I do my fair share as a husband.

 

When it comes to how she treats me – I feel like I’m just a member of the household staff. She sits with me on the sofa maybe 3 times a month. I don’t expect or want it every night, but I want more of that closeness and I’ve told her. She thinks it’s normal for married couples to rarely spend close, quality time together in the evenings. Infact when we first started seeing a therapist 2 yrs ago one of my main issues was the lack of quality time and fact that she’s on her phone/PC the entire day and night.

 

Most nights I get her a drink - ice water in the summer, tea in the winder. Even after mentioning it – first joking and then seriously – she will almost never offer or get me a drink in the evenings.

I’m not ill very often, but when I am, she’s almost resentful – she never offers me anything or asks how I’m feeling. One time I was asleep in bed with a fever, and she still went out (wasn’t an important outing) and left me to put our kids to bed.

 

Her rationale for all of this is typically “By the end of the day, I just have nothing left to give” – this despite me being the one who gets up 1-2 hours earlier than her, is up in the night with my kids, does the kids’ bedtime, and of course is at work between all of that – it’s not like I’m lounging at a bar or the pool when I’m not at home. She’s basically saying that the unequal balance in our marriage is totally normal, and that I’m the unrealistic one for wanting more from my partner.

 

As for sex – it happens 2-4 times a month. Again, she puts this down to being exhausted, nothing left to give, not wanting sex because of meds that she’s on for anxiety. Yet she’s not very subtle in her use of a vibrator we got to spice up our sex life. I mentioned it once that I knew she was using it (while pointedly not having sex with me) and she’s continued to do use it. I think she sees sex as a currency, something to reward my good behavior (i.e. not expressing dissatisfaction with anything or getting frustrated), and something that she gives out of a sense of duty rather than something she wants.

 

So there you have it… Does any of the above sound like a normal healthy and ‘normal’ relationship?

[Garcon1986]

Welcome to LS. You've gotten yourself into a hard position - it is the man earns the money, woman is still frustrated at man thing. The root of the problem is that you both don't understand how the other person feels validated. You've mentioned arguments that go around in circles, and you both feeling more and more frustrated - that's the classic woman wants a listening ear, but not a solution - and man provides solution - and woman gets more angry.

 

Ever experience this in your life?

(woman talks about a headache, man says there is a nail in the head, woman gets more frustrated)

You have emotionally exhausted each other to the point that she feels resentment towards you. She's tried to bring up stuff, but seeing you slam doors and snap pencils, is fearful of retaliation. So she's bottled it all in, and it has shriveled up her love for you which, is now like an ill plant.

 

So you'll have to both sit down and start with something gentle - like you repeatedly saying - how can I make your day better? Men all around the world think that earning the money and periodically showing your love should be all you need. But women give the same credit to a big showing of love as they do to a small showing of love, and need the repeated reminders. The slamming doors, swearing, and snapping pencils, is, just like you said, unacceptable. You will need to find a different outlet for stress at the moment, like for example, a jog around your workplace before you go home. You will have to be patient if you try this approach - it will be tedious and nerve wracking at times, but will eventually probably get her to see you differently. You are in a dangerous position mate, and I will venture a guess to say that others here will recommend divorce.

[LAO73]

Welcome to LS. You've gotten yourself into a hard position - it is the man earns the money, woman is still frustrated at man thing. The root of the problem is that you both don't understand how the other person feels validated. You've mentioned arguments that go around in circles, and you both feeling more and more frustrated - that's the classic woman wants a listening ear, but not a solution - and man provides solution - and woman gets more angry.

 

Ever experience this in your life?

(woman talks about a headache, man says there is a nail in the head, woman gets more frustrated)

You have emotionally exhausted each other to the point that she feels resentment towards you. She's tried to bring up stuff, but seeing you slam doors and snap pencils, is fearful of retaliation. So she's bottled it all in, and it has shriveled up her love for you which, is now like an ill plant.

 

So you'll have to both sit down and start with something gentle - like you repeatedly saying - how can I make your day better? Men all around the world think that earning the money and periodically showing your love should be all you need. But women give the same credit to a big showing of love as they do to a small showing of love, and need the repeated reminders. The slamming doors, swearing, and snapping pencils, is, just like you said, unacceptable. You will need to find a different outlet for stress at the moment, like for example, a jog around your workplace before you go home. You will have to be patient if you try this approach - it will be tedious and nerve wracking at times, but will eventually probably get her to see you differently. You are in a dangerous position mate, and I will venture a guess to say that others here will recommend divorce.

 

Thanks.

 

My frustrations - swearing, snapping pencils etc. happen sporadically and at the point when I'm absolutely exhausted - mentally and physically and frustrated at my perceived imbalance in the marriage and the reaction I get when I try to talk about it. I went 9 or 10 months holding it all in but noticed me doing more and more, and my wife caring about me less and less. There I was - not getting at all angry, not swearing or slamming things - even after I could see her still chatting with guy she had an emotional affair with. Makes me seem the idiot.

 

And this has been the pattern over the years. It doesn't matter how sympathetic I am, or what I do - having asked her - to make her time less stressful, she still says she has nothing left to give me.

 

My wife doesn't hold back - she brings up her frustrations with me all the time (so it's certainly not a case of her being scared to express frustrations). In fact she's complaining all day every day where she texts me minute by minute to tell me of her suffering while I'm at work (Kid x did this, kid y did this...). I've learnt most of the time not to offer solutions, and to offer genuine sympathy instead .This is why I don't mind doing so much once I get home from work, because I know her days are stressful. Recently she got annoyed with me for just being sympathetic and not offering any solutions, so it really is like I can't win.

 

She has back problems and also gets ill much more than me, but I honestly can't recall the last time she was sympathetic to me when I was ill. I don't think that's normal in a marriage, nor do I think it's normal to only want to be close to your partner in the evening (on the sofa, when kids are asleep) 2 or 3 times a month.

[Garcon1986]

Can you tell if she wants genuine human connection back in her life? Or does she just not want it with you?

[elaine567]

I've learnt most of the time not to offer solutions, and to offer genuine sympathy instead .This is why I don't mind doing so much once I get home from work, because I know her days are stressful. Recently she got annoyed with me for just being sympathetic and not offering any solutions, so it really is like I can't win.

 

 

That is because you were working from the formula and not really tuning in to what was wrong. She sees that as you not actually listening to her.

You bring out the "there, there", when she wants your help and that is hugely frustrating.

[LAO73]

That is because you were working from the formula and not really tuning in to what was wrong. She sees that as you not actually listening to her.

You bring out the "there, there", when she wants your help and that is hugely frustrating.

 

 

Not sure I follow. When I offer sympathy and no solutions, she gets annoyed because she thinks I'm just going through a routine. When I offer solutions I get my head bitten off.

 

What's wrong is that I don't think she gets any real joy or happiness from anything. Everything is a struggle. When she worked FT, she cried because she wanted to be a SAHM. Now that she is one, she cries because it's so tough. Life is tough. Having someone to support and love you makes it less tough.

[LAO73]

Can you tell if she wants genuine human connection back in her life? Or does she just not want it with you?

 

Good question, but I'm not sure. Her parents are together, but sit in different living rooms in the evening (so for her, the fact we're in the same room is a step up from that).

[LAO73]

That is because you were working from the formula and not really tuning in to what was wrong. She sees that as you not actually listening to her.

You bring out the "there, there", when she wants your help and that is hugely frustrating.

 

Also - what (else) do you think I could help with? I pretty much give her the evening off after I get home from work, I get up in the night with the kids, I do at least half of our grocery shopping. I get her drinks and a snack in the evening, and I always listen to her concerns. I look after her when she's ill or has a bad back, I give her massages...

 

I've stopped going to visit my family because she has such a hard time when she's on her own with the kids. Half of my vacation days in the last 2 yrs have been for her so she can go visit friends / family.

[Marc878]

Sounds like you're doing too much in this relationship (trying to nice her to get something in return). As you've found that routine never works. What usually happens is you get walked on and taken advantage of. Which it seems is where you're at.

 

Read "No More Mr Nice Guy" free PDF download. It's short.

 

You've unwittingly put yourself in this position and you are the only one who can get yourself out of it. She's fine with it. I mean you've made it all about her and what she wants at your expense. So she's happy. How's that working out for you?

 

Start going your own way. Cutting off your family for her? Really. Pretty bad and very weak move on your part. Go and leave her at home.

 

You teach people how they can treat you. Correcting that won't be easy.

 

Better wake up

[elaine567]

Not sure I follow. When I offer sympathy and no solutions, she gets annoyed because she thinks I'm just going through a routine. When I offer solutions I get my head bitten off.

As I said you are following the formula.

 

A+B=C, but sometimes C is not the right thing to do and she wants you to consider the issue seriously, not unthinkingly roll out C as that is what you always do. That is why she bites your head off.

 

Also to you I guess the "swearing, slamming, snapping pencils etc." is finished the minute you stop it, you are in control, but to your wife and kids they have no idea when it will stop, if it will stop, if it will escalate to something far worse...

They don't forget either...

[Garcon1986]

Elaine the conversations where a man tries to offer solutions, but then the woman gets really angry happen so often. Then, the woman wants solutions, and then bites back when the man offers a listening ear.

 

How would you want your man to respond if the relationship declined to this level?

 

And LAO73, how did you allow your wife to be stay at home forever? This is a recipe for conflict after conflict.

[elaine567]

Elaine the conversations where a man tries to offer solutions, but then the woman gets really angry happen so often. Then, the woman wants solutions, and then bites back when the man offers a listening ear.

I am not saying some women are not being deliberately perverse to make a point or to voice their resentment, but often men just do not "get it". She then thinks he is being deliberately obtuse and stupid, hence the bite back.

This "Oh but when I offer solutions she wants sympathy" but when "I hand out sympathy she wants solutions" just illustrates the point about how clueless some men actually are...

[vla1120]

I think she should put the 4-yr-old in pre-kindergarten and start working. I get that it's hard for her to be home all day, but I would imagine your 7-yr-old is in school, so she's down to one 4-yr-old all day. You cook, do the dishes, put the kids to bed, do the shopping and more? She had an emotional affair and has the audacity to treat you like household staff? She should be the one trying everything possible to stay on YOUR good side. You've provided a very good home for her and your income supported her being a SAHM. It's time for her to pull her weight in the relationship. In fact, if I were you, I'd take a vacation to go visit your family (maybe bring the kids so they can spend time with your family, too), and tell her she better take that time to improve her attitude because something is going to change when you return. It can either be her attitude, or she better start looking for a way to support herself down the road. You've been very accommodating, which is nice, but she's walking all over you. So you're not perfect. No one is, but she better realize quickly she could do a heck of a lot worse than you. That's for sure!

[Garcon1986]

Elaine if that was an example of being clueless, then what is an ideal example of fixing this situation? I understand it can be frustrating, but I think many people would like to hear your proposal on how to remedy the situation.

[elaine567]

This is difficult. Older man younger wife, older man bending over backwards to pander to wife.

Wife is no doubt busy and stressed and probably a bit depressed too, but she now has little time for husband. Probably the swearing, the slamming, the shouting, the snapping eroded her love and respect too.

He "helps" more and more but to no avail, she looks for comfort elsewhere.

I think she needs shocked out of her comfort zone, but it is a risk. He is so worried he is going to lose her and she probably knows that full well hence why she doesn't really care.

[LAO73]

This is difficult. Older man younger wife, older man bending over backwards to pander to wife.

Wife is no doubt busy and stressed and probably a bit depressed too, but she now has little time for husband. Probably the swearing, the slamming, the shouting, the snapping eroded her love and respect too.

He "helps" more and more but to no avail, she looks for comfort elsewhere.

I think she needs shocked out of her comfort zone, but it is a risk. He is so worried he is going to lose her and she probably knows that full well hence why she doesn't really care.

 

I mentioned I'm not perfect, because nobody is, and when you write / read a thread like this, you're obviously only getting one side of the story. But I don't want to give the impression that I'm some jerk always showing my anger and unable to control my temper. I really don't think my occasional shows of frustration have eroded my wife's love for me. What's eroded it is the fact that over the last few years, I've had the audacity to mention my dissatisfaction with aspects of our relationship. My frustrations - and how they manifest - get worse when I try to explain to her the same sort of stuff that the marriage therapist said to her, and she bites my head of as if I've told her she kills kittens for fun.

 

I do a lot for my wife because I love her. I do it because I want her to appreciate me and I want her not to have energy and love for me and not say "I have nothing left to give you". From my perspective, I've taken more and more off her plate and addressed things she didn't like. Yet she still says she has nothing left to give me. I'm not even asking for that much - just to be shown a bit of care and love occasionally. It's like it doesn't matter how hard my day is, hers is always worse.

 

Actually, I'll be honest - I'm no longer worried about losing her, but she should be worried about losing me (given how on a practical level, how much harder her life will be if I'm gone). I don't want to leave, because I love my kids so much, and I worry about negatively impacting my relationship with them, and worry about them being worse off without me. I worry that my wife won't be able to cope and will try to take my kids 2500 miles away to be closer to her family).

[LAO73]

Sounds like you're doing too much in this relationship (trying to nice her to get something in return). As you've found that routine never works. What usually happens is you get walked on and taken advantage of. Which it seems is where you're at.

 

Read "No More Mr Nice Guy" free PDF download. It's short.

 

You've unwittingly put yourself in this position and you are the only one who can get yourself out of it. She's fine with it. I mean you've made it all about her and what she wants at your expense. So she's happy. How's that working out for you?

 

Start going your own way. Cutting off your family for her? Really. Pretty bad and very weak move on your part. Go and leave her at home.

 

You teach people how they can treat you. Correcting that won't be easy.

 

Better wake up

 

 

Agree with the bit in bold. Don't want to cause offense, but I read No more Mr Nice guy a few years ago, and thought it was awful. I get what he's trying to say, but it just read like a different flavor of Deepak Chopra, and a bit like something out of the 80s for people who have no awareness and don't know how to express themselves.

 

The more I think of it, the more I think my wife just totally lacks emotional intelligence and empathy. I probably missed the red flags before we had kids, but hindsight is always 20:20. I don't think she is the way she is out of malice, which is why she is always so surprised and reacts with such hurt and anger when I try to explain my unhappiness

[Garcon1986]

If she stays at home all day and complains that her day is too hard, could it be that she is having some version of an affair now?

[Mr. Lucky]

She even justified having an emotional affair because of some of the stuff I’d said in marriage counselling.

Emotional affair is over - guy is thousands of miles away, but they had spent time together when wife went to visit family and were then texting through the night and telling each other they loved each other. I found out because I knew something was up and snooped on her phone. But even 15 months later, she was still talking to him on Facebook / liking or loving his posts and was still listening to songs he’d sung – some specifically for her – i.e. heartfelt love songs – on the Smule app.

 

Can you more clearly define "spent time together"?

 

It almost seems as though she had a full-blown affair, one which she would have left you for had it worked out. So having fallen in love with him, she's resentful she's stuck with you, the fallback plan. You don't describe how you dealt with the infidelity, but if it was just rug-swept you may still be feeling the consequences today. Does the timing of her involvement with him align to her seeming checked out of the marriage?

 

Mr. Lucky

[elaine567]

I worry that my wife won't be able to cope and will try to take my kids 2500 miles away to be closer to her family).

 

This may be significant. How did you meet your wife and why is she now 2500 miles away from her family.

[Starswillshine]

Given what you said, I would be worried she is still involved with this other man. If she is still in contact with him, that is a HUGE red flag. She should absolutely ZERO contact with him.

 

I was a SAHM, and I can somewhat relate to her. It's difficult at times. But at the end of the day, I was madly in love with my husband and I couldn't wait to just plop down on the couch in his arms and just turn off the brain..

 

Its possible neither of you truly know how to show each other how much you love and appreciate. You are showing her in ways that you would feel it. And from what you type, it doesnt sound as if she is making much of an effort. She may not feel it, she may not. But it would all make sense if her emotions are elsewhere (this other man).

[stillafool]

I think she should put the 4-yr-old in pre-kindergarten and start working. I get that it's hard for her to be home all day, but I would imagine your 7-yr-old is in school, so she's down to one 4-yr-old all day. You cook, do the dishes, put the kids to bed, do the shopping and more? She had an emotional affair and has the audacity to treat you like household staff? She should be the one trying everything possible to stay on YOUR good side. You've provided a very good home for her and your income supported her being a SAHM. It's time for her to pull her weight in the relationship. In fact, if I were you, I'd take a vacation to go visit your family (maybe bring the kids so they can spend time with your family, too), and tell her she better take that time to improve her attitude because something is going to change when you return. It can either be her attitude, or she better start looking for a way to support herself down the road. You've been very accommodating, which is nice, but she's walking all over you. So you're not perfect. No one is, but she better realize quickly she could do a heck of a lot worse than you. That's for sure!

 

^^^I completely agree with the above. Your wife is taking you for granted when there are a million women out there who would give their right arm for a man like you. She can't take your kids from you if you divorce. I wouldn't continue to put up with her if I were you.

[OwenW72]

 

I do a lot for my wife because I love her. I do it because I want her to appreciate me and I want her not to have energy and love for me and not say "I have nothing left to give you". From my perspective, I've taken more and more off her plate and addressed things she didn't like. Yet she still says she has nothing left to give me. I'm not even asking for that much - just to be shown a bit of care and love occasionally. It's like it doesn't matter how hard my day is, hers is always worse.

 

Actually, I'll be honest - I'm no longer worried about losing her, but she should be worried about losing me (given how on a practical level, how much harder her life will be if I'm gone). I don't want to leave, because I love my kids so much, and I worry about negatively impacting my relationship with them, and worry about them being worse off without me. I worry that my wife won't be able to cope and will try to take my kids 2500 miles away to be closer to her family).

 

Over my 20+ year marriage I did many of the things you are describing and came to feel many of the things you are feeling. For me I just got fed up and felt deeply unheard and unappreciated. Not to mention feeling a little crazy when we argued because I always walked away thinking that there was a Groundhogs Day quality to our fights. And at it's heart for us, it was that I was always setting my course toward trying to run interference for my wife and thinking that if she had a problem, I could fix it. I made my happiness be about hers, and made the impossible promise that she need not worry, I'll make it all OK. But of course, I couldn't, and that pattern led to me getting ever more frustrated and feeling used, and she being ever more frustrated with me falling short.

 

I regret to say that I did not figure out a way to fix it, but I am heartened by you making it clear you love your wife. You sounds like you are close to giving up, and maybe looking for some validation that it would be OK. Honestly, it comes down to whether you actually want to fix things, because separation can suck. Because if you still love her, and would just be happy if she worked with you to break that pattern, it's probably more than possible. But if you or she just feel contempt at this point, or one of you has given up, then it's unlikely you find a way back.

 

My wife and I both had moments of giving up and then leaning back into trying to fix things. Ironically, it was when I really gave up and made that clear, then our pattern changed. For the first time I was no longer playing the part of "Mr. I Can Fix You", and that in turn genuinely changed my wife's dynamic with me. She stopped expecting it, and for the first time actually looked at how unhealthy our pattern of pursuit and reaction had been. We both started realizing that being happy was our own jobs, not the responsibility of the other. But for me it was too late, and I asked for a divorce. I got to where I didn't trust her or me to not just plunge back into the unhealthy dynamics of before, and subject us and the kids to years more of it.

 

But you sound like where I was a couple years ago, and you two might still have some hope. The part that isn't so clear is whether your wife actually is invested in doing that. If she had, or is having, an affair, that's the biggest red flag. To get things straight, she has to own that fully, commit to NC, and really invest in restarting with a genuinely different relationship for both of you. Otherwise, you're just waiting for her to pull the plug when she feels safe to move on.

[Mr. Lucky]

Otherwise, you're just waiting for her to pull the plug when she feels safe to move on.

 

LAO73, OwenW72 brings up an important point you ignore at your own risk - she's got her own agenda, independent of yours. So while you're pondering the fate of the marriage, she could decide it for you.

 

Since you don't know what she will do, you can only prepare for what she can do. Carefully consider your responses and options to each of her potential choices...

 

Mr. Lucky