Just when I thought it was safe to STOP talking about the ex

[carrotgirl]

My friend told me off at breakfast this morning.

 

She didn't waste any time. She just dug right in. Carrot? What is going on with you and GD? You mean with me, it wasn't a great Christmas with my family. And also what is going on with GD? You'd have to ask him. She shook her finger at me. You mean with me and GD this week? I asked. Yah, she said.

 

Well Grandpa died Christmas eve and he acted like he didn't care, so I decided it was enough and I don't want to know him any more. Then the other day he told me he didn't know Grandpa had died and I told him he was an @$$hole. I was already avoiding him anyway so what's the difference?

 

Her face was incredibly pained. I've maybe only seen her so pained twice before. She said, Well, you have the right to be unhappy about that. But don't you think it would be better for you to just forget about this? Who knows why he reacted the way he did. He said he didn't know. Maybe he didn't know.

 

I interrupted her and said but he did know and then with work, he certainly knew.

 

She said, Okay, but he said he didn't know and Carrot, we both know that GD would never do anything to hurt you. He's really such a sensitive guy. He's so gentle. He wouldn't hurt you for the world.

 

I said, Right. With the exception of breaking up with me and ripping my heart out when said he didn't love me, and then continuing to hold on to me and then reject me when he gets too close, he would never hurt me.

 

And then my soft spoken friend let me have it. Do you really not see what it does to him when you're upset? Carrot, you have every reason to be upset with GD but you're going against your nature acting this way. Why? Having him out of your life isn't even what you want and it's evidently not what he wants so why are you doing it?

 

I don't care what he wants. I don't care anymore. I'm sick of it. He is upset with me for getting upset because he couldn't be bothered to care and I'm sick of the whole thing. I'm tired of his shiit.

 

She said, Carrot, GD loves you. Don't give up on him. And you do care. You're miserable without him and he's miserable without you.

 

I said there's no real evidence of that.

 

No? You really don't think so? Do you know why he avoids you?

 

I said, No.

 

She said, He avoids you because he thinks you're angry with him and he can't handle it.

 

Well I WAS angry with him and too bad if he can't handle it.

 

She said Carrot, you're being unfair. Just try to play nice with him. That's all he wants. Think about it. What happened yesterday? He made an effort to try again. He always comes back to try again.

 

I said, Yah. We talked for a few hours. He was getting his Carrot fix. I cut him off so he needed a few hours conversation fix.

 

She said, Stop it Carrot. You know that's not it. He can't bear for you to be unhappy and it's even more unbearable when he thinks you're unhappy with him.

 

Yah. That would explain why he said he hated seeing me so happy when he dumped me.

 

Carrot! He said he hated seeing you so happy because he didn't know how to say he was afraid of doing something to ruin it and make you unhappy. He doesn't want to admit how much he loves you. He may not even know just how much he loves you but he so obviously doesn't want to lose you. And he will do whatever he can to keep you from being unhappy with him. He did what he thought would cause the least harm for you both

 

I said slowly and quietly, This is making me crazy. I can't keep doing this.

 

And my beautiful friend didn't quite snap - You're right. You can't keep doing this so you're going to have to toughen up. So he's still a kid. So what? If this is going to work out, you have to grow up first. You're going to have to adjust your expectations and you're going to have to show him that you're happy with the way things are. You know he's confused. You know he's afraid. He's a man and he's at a place where he has to start making real life decisions. You've already gone through that so you're going to have to be more understanding. And you're going to have to do a lot better and be a lot stronger. Because Carrot, he loves you. And you love him. You two just need time.

 

And Carrot?

 

Yah?

 

Just let him have his way for a while. Be nice to him. Be friendly. Be open. Don't cut him off. Let him come back to you.

 

Uh. Okay.

 

 

And then we talked about other things.

 

 

She couldn't have known because I didn't tell her and I'm sure he didn't tell her. She was dead on acurate with the unhappiness observation. The ex said almost exactly that about me returning things he'd given to me, to borrow or to keep for a long, long while.... He said, I thought you gave back them back because you were upset at me. I said noooo, I wasn't upset with you at all. He said, Yah. I guess I knew that a few days LATER when you weren't upset with me but at the time it bothered me. His face probably said what mine said when I heard this. He'd been hurt by me returning his things. But why? I asked. "Because I didn't know what I did that made you so upset that you gave everything back."

 

And finally it dawned on the quirky spiritual yet very agnostic Carrot, the quirky spiritual yet very agnostic ex wants the love from Corinthians. You know the passage....

 

Love is very patient, very kind. Love knows no jealousy; love makes no parade, gives itself no airs, is never rude, never selfish, never irritated, never resentful; love is never glad when others go wrong, love is gladdened by goodness, always slow to expose, always eager to believe the best, always hopeful, always patient. Love never disappears. (1 Cor. 13: 4–8)

 

I don't think I'm EVER going to be this kind of a lover. I don't manage to do any of these things no matter how hard I try or how good my intentions are. And I think this is the inner strength and faith he wants to see in love and who could blame him?

 

Talk to me people. I'm still maintaining as much LC/NC as I have control over. He's still alone in his flat. But me? I don't know what's right any more. And for a close friend of mine who is also a friend from more of a distance to the ex, for her to butt in this way, against HER nature, to tell me not to give up on the ex, it has me rethinking. Thankfully, the rethinking isn't spinning. It's quiet and slow. But how is it that she sees something so different from the good thinkers here? And is her observation any more valid? I feel like it kind of has to be.

 

I don't know what anything means any more. So many things I thought were a certain way weren't and aren't. So many things that I should trust because of who I know the ex to be, I don't trust any more because he hurt me. And again and again, it's pointed out to me that despite the very enormous hurt when he threw our whole relationship in the garbage, I've unknowingly hurt him and hurt him in the same lasting way, where he can no longer trust that I'm the person he knows me to be.

 

There seems to be some crucial loss in the middle of what he/I said, what he/I heard, what he/I meant, what he/I understood.

 

On the one hand, I can understand wanting a love so pure. On the other hand, I feel like it's an impossible standard and wanting to hold me to it is beyond controlling. How could I ever be those things all the way, all the time? I don't think I'm capable. I'm never going to be Saint Carrot. And I don't think that means I don't love the guy.

 

Does anyone have some thoughts for me to consider?

 

Carrot

[AriaIncognito]

My thought for you to consider is this.

 

Who is this person to tell YOU what YOU should be doing? You were trying to tell her what you wanted and she basically kept saying who cares what you want, he needs X and Y.

 

For me, I'd search myself. What does Carrot want? Does Carrot want to move on and find someone? Does Carrot want to make it work withi GD, even though she thinks she's not what he wants?

 

I think only you have the answers to your questions.

[Trialbyfire]

To put it bluntly carrot, your friend is fooked...

 

If he's got sensitivity issues, it's not your responsibility. This is something he needs to address. You're not his mother, to pander to his lack of self-esteem issues...

Edited December 30, 2007 by Trialbyfire

[s_n_d]

I can tell that your friend cares about you and wants you to be happy again.

Im going through the same thing as you. Since my ex broke up with me unexpectedly..Over a few fights we had that were pointless, Ive been so lost and confused even.

But whats different now rather than my emotional state two months ago(when the breakup happened), is that I have now accepted the fact that were over but Ill always have the hope that maybe one day My ex and I will get back together one day..when were both a lot older and maturer because there was undeniably an electric connection with us that we will never have with anyone else.

And i know that IF we ever do get back together I need to show him that Ive changed and Im not the same person anymore and that I wont ever hurt him the way his exs did.

[s_n_d]

Oh and I dont think anyone possesses the qualities or whatever you would call them that is shown in Corinthians 11. I think those qualities arise as your relationship with someone develops.

[tinke]

quick question......will this friend continue to be linked to the two of you for life so that she will be able to decipher his thoughts and verbalize them to you?

 

i would believe these are feelings he needs to express (if true).

 

anywhere in that conversation where you heard Re: YOUR FEELINGS, YOUR NEEDS?

 

honestly, you know what is right for you, follow your instincts whatever they are.

[Trimmer]

If he's got sensitivity issues, it's not your responsibility. This is something he needs to address. You're not his mother, to pander to his lack of self-esteem issues...

And hey, neither is your friend, although she's acting like it.

[Trialbyfire]

And hey, neither is your friend, although she's acting like it.

No kidding. It irritates me when people think that just because someone's supposedly in love with you, sad puppy face, that you need to return unconditional love. BEE-ESSSS...

 

It takes two to tango.

[carrotgirl]

Some of aria's wisdom from another thread....

I don't believe this to be a gender specific thing. Generally, here's what happens.

 

1.) Someone, either one or both parties of a relationship, feel that it's just not working out the way they want. Due to this fact, they begin to consider the idea of there being somebody else

2.) The person starts to detach themselves from the relationship.

3.) The person is able to get over you while still with you.

4.) You're left crying because OMG you had no idea it was coming and he/she was so perfect and you were meant for eachother

 

I don't believe that good bye is not part of either genders vocabulary. The reason some people are able to walk away and not look back, is because they have already dealt with the feelings about the relationship and already made the conscious decision that they wanted something else. It has nothing to do with you. They want what they want. It doesn't mean you failed and doesn't mean you aren't worthy of love, etc.

 

Walking away and cutting all ties, is pretty much the best method for moving forward in your life. The guy that said he immediately deleted his ex's number had it right. Why tempt yourself? This person just said "eh, I want someone else". Why would you want that for yourself? You want someone that wants you. Only you. No doubts.

What happened in our case was the first and last 20% of this. We had this part: Someone, either one or both parties of a relationship, feel that it's just not working out the way they want.

 

There was none of the middle part. He didn't start wanting someone else. There isn't/wasn't someone else. He didn't detach from the relationship during or after. He didn't get over me while he was with me.

 

I truly had no clue it was coming. At this point in time, I don't think HE knew it was coming. I think he panicked the way I panicked a couple of weeks ago and just went for whatever it was that he thought would make him feel better at the time. Only it didn't.

 

I'd say at this point in time we're both very actively trying to detach now. And the reasons why aren't the right reasons, not for either of us. My friend raised some valid points. She is a good and trusted friend. Hopefully everyone knows one person who knows and cares for you and respects you enough to love you as you are and not butt in.... This was an unusual intervention. And I think that's the nature of the delivery.

 

So who is she to say? She's someone who cares for me and GD. She has a place of perspective that neither of us have. And forgive the bluntness, she sees me (and GD) in ways no one at LS does. She isn't mothering GD or asking me to repress myself. She's trying to keep me from torpedoing what could be a lifelong love at best or could be a lifelong friendship at least, if I would choose to stick by him the way he chooses to stick by me. Bottom line, she wouldn't have said any of this unless she felt very strongly that I needed to be made aware.

 

What I choose to do with it is of course, my decision. I'm out of reason. I know this. I don't know what is best for me. I thought I knew for a while. Lately, I don't know. I'm not flailing but I've pretty much given up on finding peace. My friend saw this clearly and I hadn't even said it - I'm giving up. And she's right about that too. It's not what I want. What I want is me together with GD. What I want is for us to fix this mess. So, so slowly, he and I are talking about the things that need talking about. But it all seems too late.

 

I don't even know why talk about any of it. I honestly don't know why these things come up. I don't know why we talk about them if we aren't going to be together. What is the point? So I wind up backing off just when he's opening up. And vice versa. Only it seems like he punks out in such a big way when he gets caught off guard by his feelings. Then I feel like he wants everything to be impersonal.

 

Around again and again. WHY discuss anything? Why does he care how I feel when he sees he's completely blown it with me? And yes, he hid from me. He was upset because I was upset. Because he's blown it with me and he wants to blame - ME. I thought if this is what I have to look forward to for the rest of my life with him, then I don't want it. I don't want to be with a control freak.

 

Enter my friend who rightly pointed out this is a phase. GD truly isn't a control freak but He IS at a turning point in his life. He sees himself with even less clarity than I'm seeing myself. All he knows is that he wants to be safe. He wants to be in charge of his life. He doesn't want his choices to be finite. He doesn't want to compromise. He doesn't want to wake up and not know himself. He doesn't want to be tied down to ANYTHING or ANYONE because he's scared of making the wrong decision and being stuck somewhere doing something with someone where he'll be unhappy for the rest of his life.

 

That's a tough place to be in. She is right. We're all there at one time or another before during or after our fine romances. Or at least I've been there. It sucks.

 

Carrot

[Trialbyfire]

carrot, stop trying to save him. He has to want to save himself.

[sao2]

Love from Corinthians, If I had to pick a favorite and least favorite passage from the bible that one would be in the running for both. While in principle it is a beautiful ideal it is not what I want from a romantic relationship.

 

I want to be desired, wanted, yes in fact even needed a bit. I want my lover to love me in a way that makes no rational sense to them at times and I hope they want my time and energy. I have expectations of someone I am involved with and if they can't handle those expectations than that is just too bad. I hope my lover would have expectations of me.

 

Love without expectations, that's what God is for, I for one hope my lover does have expectations of me. That way I don't feel alone out there when she has my heart in her hands.

[Citizen Erased]

Wow, if I had a friend who spoke to me like that about such a sensitive issue, well..who needs enemies with friends like that

[carrotgirl]

carrot, stop trying to save him. He has to want to save himself.

Dude! I'm trying to save myself here thanks. Passivity isn't exactly a strength of mine. Nor is patience. But I am always trying to at least consider and I reached a point where I stopped listening and considering anything or anyone, including myself. I did the blanket here's what I'll do, the end. This is not a healthy way for me to be. I have a good enough friend to see that and make me examine it.

Wow, if I had a friend who spoke to me like that about such a sensitive issue, well..who needs enemies with friends like that

Yah. Someone who treads on slippery ice to pull me up when I've fallen, someone who cares enough to put herself at risk to hold out a helping hand and will still love me even if I push away the helpful hand away is probably not a friend worth having.

 

I should stop listening to all of you immediately. Enemies. Bah!

 

Carrot

[carrotgirl]

Love from Corinthians, If I had to pick a favorite and least favorite passage from the bible that one would be in the running for both. While in principle it is a beautiful ideal it is not what I want from a romantic relationship.

 

I want to be desired, wanted, yes in fact even needed a bit. I want my lover to love me in a way that makes no rational sense to them at times and I hope they want my time and energy. I have expectations of someone I am involved with and if they can't handle those expectations than that is just too bad. I hope my lover would have expectations of me.

 

Love without expectations, that's what God is for, I for one hope my lover does have expectations of me. That way I don't feel alone out there when she has my heart in her hands.

I have always rather disliked it. Ever read Shel Silverstein's Where the Sidewalk Ends?

 

"Have you been to The Land of Happy,

Where everyone's happy all day,

Where they joke and they sing

Of the happiest things,

And everything's jolly and gay?

There's no one unhappy in Happy, There's laughter and smiles galore.

I have been to The Land of Happy -

What a bore!"

 

Give me real anger and real thrills and real real real passion and real joy.

 

Carrot

[Trialbyfire]

Dude! I'm trying to save myself here thanks. Passivity isn't exactly a strength of mine. Nor is patience. But I am always trying to at least consider and I reached a point where I stopped listening and considering anything or anyone, including myself. I did the blanket here's what I'll do, the end. This is not a healthy way for me to be. I have a good enough friend to see that and make me examine it.

Okay. Here's your situation in a nutshell:

• You've deep-sixed the ex for more bad behaviour.
  
• Your good friend says, "why do this if you both still care?"
  
• You're currently saying, okay, I'll hold on some more.

Say, you take him back.

 

• Remind me here, what are you taking back again that meets your needs?
  
• What's your benefit in this, in that he WON'T provide you with your needs but wants your unconditional love?
  
• Why are you agreeing to take on his issues?

Overall, your friend has a right to express her opinion. What isn't her right is to attempt to pressure you into taking responsibility for his issues. You can't save someone who's determined to self-destruct. He'll just drag you down with him, unless he smacks himself upside the head and starts to man-up. You're not his mother.

[AriaIncognito]

Some of aria's wisdom from another thread....

 

 

Wow, who knew I had wisdom LOL.

 

Carrot, I really truly feel like you know what you want to do, you just dont want to do it because it will make other people potentially unhappy. Namely, this friend and GD.

 

You have to do what's right for you. You owe him nothing, he owes you nothing. I really think you know what it is you need to do. Now just comes the hard part, taking the step, and doing it. Bring on the consequences.

[carrotgirl]

Okay. Here's your situation in a nutshell:

• You've deep-sixed the ex for more bad behaviour.
  
• Your good friend says, "why do this if you both still care?"
  
• You're currently saying, okay, I'll hold on some more.

- Yes.

- Yes.

- I'm currently saying, I don't know.

Say, you take him back.

• Remind me here, what are you taking back again that meets your needs?
  
• What's your benefit in this, in that he WON'T provide you with your needs but wants your unconditional love?
  
• Why are you agreeing to take on his issues?

- If and when we would reconcile we'd have to figure that out. That's really one of the questions I'm asking. Why do we discuss any of this now if there isn't a future? What is the point?

- To be fair, he currently provides me with needs, not wants. But needs. Check.

 

Case in point A with Grandpa. I didn't inform GD myself. I wanted him to do and say everything right but I wasn't willing to appear needy or ask and then I was pissed when he didn't produce. It's possible he didn't know. I don't believe that but I didn't tell him so who do I have to blame there?

 

Case in point B. Heading home Friday I looked in the rearview and saw I was missing an earring. It's a nice earring so I went back to work to look. GD was on his way out. He asked why I was back. I said I lost an earring and wished him goodnight. I searched the conference rooms, my office, the ladies room, my car - twice, the car park in the dark. I went back to my office. GD was still there. He walked up to me. I held out my hand. He deposited one diamond earring.

 

He found it stuck between two cushions of a chair I'd been sitting on. Getting me? Instead of going home he stayed another 40 minutes at least looking for an earring I hadn't described, in places I hadn't described, without being asked and he came up with the goods.

Overall, your friend has a right to express her opinion. What isn't her right is to attempt to pressure you into taking responsibility for his issues. You can't save someone who's determined to self-destruct. He'll just drag you down with him, unless he smacks himself upside the head and starts to man-up. You're not his mother.

- I think she's worried I'm on a self destruct path. This wasn't about saving GD. Her effort was to keep me from hurting myself.

- I have the same worry that GD will drag me down.

- I'm not his mother. We'd both hate that though she's much nicer than I am and far more patient.

[Trialbyfire]

GD isn't the only man on this Earth that you can have a relationship with. There are probably at least a handful, just on LS, who might be compatible, that could provide you with a far more functional relationship than GD ever could hope to aspire to.

 

You put so much energy into this guy. He's exhausting, even as a "I don't know what he is right now, kinda' friend, kinda' who knows."

[carrotgirl]

Okay. Here's your situation in a nutshell:

• You've deep-sixed the ex for more bad behaviour.
  
• Your good friend says, "why do this if you both still care?"
  
• You're currently saying, okay, I'll hold on some more.

- Yes.

- Yes.

- I'm currently saying, I don't know.

Say, you take him back.

• Remind me here, what are you taking back again that meets your needs?
  
• What's your benefit in this, in that he WON'T provide you with your needs but wants your unconditional love?
  
• Why are you agreeing to take on his issues?

- If and when we would reconcile we'd have to figure that out. That's really one of the questions I'm asking. Why do we discuss any of this now if there isn't a future? What is the point?

- To be fair, he currently provides me with needs, not wants. But needs. Check.

 

Case in point A with Grandpa. I didn't inform GD myself. I wanted him to do and say everything right but I wasn't willing to appear needy or ask and then I was pissed when he didn't produce. It's possible he didn't know. I don't believe that but I didn't tell him so who do I have to blame there?

 

Case in point B. Heading home Friday I looked in the rearview and saw I was missing an earring. It's a nice earring so I went back to work to look. GD was on his way out. He asked why I was back. I said I lost an earring and wished him goodnight. I searched the conference rooms, my office, the ladies room, my car - twice, the car park in the dark. I went back to my office. GD was still there. He walked up to me. I held out my hand. He deposited one diamond earring.

 

He found it stuck between two cushions of a chair I'd been sitting on. Getting me? Instead of going home he stayed another 40 minutes at least looking for an earring I hadn't described, in places I hadn't described, without being asked and he came up with the goods.

Overall, your friend has a right to express her opinion. What isn't her right is to attempt to pressure you into taking responsibility for his issues. You can't save someone who's determined to self-destruct. He'll just drag you down with him, unless he smacks himself upside the head and starts to man-up. You're not his mother.

- I think she's worried I'm on a self destruct path. This wasn't about saving GD. Her effort was to keep me from hurting myself.

- I have the same worry that GD will drag me down.

- I'm not his mother. We'd both hate that though she's much nicer than I am and far more patient.

[confuse80]

because we have the same situation carrot, and in my side his mother told me to stay strong and hold on to him, not my friend.

but the reality is that ... does he wants you back? you cant go back to him while he doesnt want you back.

as much as i love my ex and dying to go back but he just say no. no is no and nothing will change, maybe it will someday but thats when he's ready not when i am ready. why put hopes when the other side dont want to put the same hope as you?

i think you need to just move on for a while, give him all the space that he needs, I will give my ex all the space that he needs now altough he still want to call me and be friends with me but you know, I cant stand the night that I feel lonely and needing him so much but he just not there, I have to move on for the better and for myself, not for him. I am goin to go full NC from now on and this time I mean it, not matter how sad I am and how I miss him terribly I know that now its only myself that can take care of me, he will not goin to be there for me anymore. if he does want you back he will tell you when he is ready and I am sure that time you will appreciate it more because then he is ready for you.

[carrotgirl]

GD isn't the only man on this Earth that you can have a relationship with. There are probably at least a handful, just on LS, who might be compatible, that could provide you with a far more functional relationship than GD ever could hope to aspire to.

 

You put so much energy into this guy. He's exhausting, even as a "I don't know what he is right now, kinda' friend, kinda' who knows."

I love you Tri.

[carrotgirl]

because we have the same situation carrot, and in my side his mother told me to stay strong and hold on to him, not my friend.

C80, the-ex's-mom-approved is potent stuff. Good for you for being so strong in yourself!

 

Carrot

[sedgwick]

Your ex and mine sound so much alike when it comes to the commitment issues. They HAVE to work out their own issues and come back to the relationship willing to give as much as we are, or it won't work.

 

If he wants you to know all these things, he should tell you himself through his actions. Having a friend stick up for him and justify his behavior to you doesn't cut it.

 

The only way this guy should be allowed back into your life is if he comes to you and says, I love you, I realize I have to work on my own issues, I want to be in a relationship with you, and I am willing to meet you halfway. Until my ex says those things and means them, I don't want him around. It hurts too much to wait and hope. You don't need someone who waffles all the time about whether or not he wants to be in your life. He should be so lucky!

[AriaIncognito]

Your ex and mine sound so much alike when it comes to the commitment issues. They HAVE to work out their own issues and come back to the relationship willing to give as much as we are, or it won't work.

 

If he wants you to know all these things, he should tell you himself through his actions. Having a friend stick up for him and justify his behavior to you doesn't cut it.

 

The only way this guy should be allowed back into your life is if he comes to you and says, I love you, I realize I have to work on my own issues, I want to be in a relationship with you, and I am willing to meet you halfway. Until my ex says those things and means them, I don't want him around. It hurts too much to wait and hope. You don't need someone who waffles all the time about whether or not he wants to be in your life. He should be so lucky!

 

Amen Sedgwick. And add my ex to that list as well. Master of not committing. Very unfair to those of us who are great at committing to relationships.

 

Hope you're doing better, Carrot, and that the new year brings new clarity :-)