Here is my first post in the religion section. Hopefully I won't be struck down by lightning.
Long story short, I was at one point christian then became disenchanted with organized religions and just maintained a personal worship. Fast forward to college and my getting a degree in the sciences. I took courses on religion and in philosophy as well and at some point "lost my faith."
Sometimes I would find myself veiwing science almost as a religion, where I assume everthing I was learning was "the truth." I would quickly check myself and remember that science is just trying to find this truth but does not claim to have it. That is the beauty of science, the more you learn the more refined your understanding of the world is and the closer to the truth you become. Of course in that process you also learn that what you previously believed was wrong and what you currently believe may be wrong as well.
I was just wondering if religious people go through this same kind of process as well, or is it just "I believe and therefore it must be right and the truth." I have thought that the religious seem to not do much thinking for themselves, otherwise they probably wouldn't need to fall back on religion for comfort and security. But I wouldn't mind being proven wrong!
I so want to comment here but I am stricken with da flu so cannot even figure out the remote control right now..... very interesting thread you have started. I look forward to reading others opinions, I may form one myself once I can get a grip on my brain functions.
a4a- the doo run runs down my leg
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I was just wondering if religious people go through this same kind of process as well, or is it just "I believe and therefore it must be right and the truth."
i think people who think this way miss the point entirely, and in the end make a mockery of religion and science. you can feel it, you can sense it, you can believe it, but you don't know, and you certainly cannot claim it's truth for someone else.
i'm like you. i follow my own path. do i think it's the truth, i don't know, but i certainly try to find out, and i feel it will be a life-long (til the death and even after) discovery. that to me is a process, and it seems to be a healthy, sound way to go about anything in life.
i think this is a great thread...though i hate to see what becomes of it.
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I rembmer when me and my mom were having a discussion regarding religion back about 20 yrs ago....she was a well educated person who was moderately religious.
So I asked her if the earth is only a few thousand yrs old then why are there fossils being discovered that are like 100 million yrs old?
Her answer was that the devil put them there to make us not believe in God.
I was talking about this with my exBF last night, regarding neurobiological developmental and metacognition. At some point in your mid 20s your brain finishes developing. Unlike a small child, you can think about HOW you think about things. Metacognition. Through this exploration you analyze what parts of your worldview were "borrowed" from parents/family and your basic perception of the world changes into something of your own creation.
My point was (he disagreed) - not everyone gets to that point, where they are able to/want to think about how they think, or why the believe what they believe. The philosophical conundrums and complications are terrifying to behold. For those who chose to indulge this interest, and for those who chose NOT to.
There are a multitude of elements leading up to a given individual having the capacity to challenge the very elemental things that make up how they understand reality. Like, being exposed to as many different outlooks and worldviews as possible, exposure to different cultures and religious systems. THat kinda thing.
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Just to clear things up in case it is confusing, though it probably doesn't have any bearing on this discussion. I am currently not religious. I do not believe in a creator or a higher power. I am especially wary of organized religions, though if forced I would be something like Taoist. I am a chemist so I "know" that everything is about exchanges of energy. Nature is a beautifully complex thing.
Anyway, enough about me. Time for some opinions and enlightening (hopefully) conversation!
Metacognition. Through this exploration you analyze what parts of your worldview were "borrowed" from parents/family and your basic perception of the world changes into something of your own creation.
Very interesting b_o. I don't know about when it develops or if it indeed does, though. I feel like I have been questioning and analyzing things since before college, though not successfully. I'm starting to think that going with this route you never get to one understanding but have to constantly evolve your thoughts and beliefs. I guess this is part of that uncertainty that so many seem to be frightened of.
I was talking about this with my exBF last night, regarding neurobiological developmental and metacognition.
hmm...fascinating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blind_otter
At some point in your mid 20s your brain finishes developing. Unlike a small child, you can think about HOW you think about things.
this is also why people who are "dumb" at 25 will most likely stay dumb for the rest of their lives. its also why college-educated people, in general, have a much more global view of things. they also have learned how to learn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blind_otter
Through this exploration you analyze what parts of your worldview were "borrowed" from parents/family and your basic perception of the world changes into something of your own creation.
we all eventually turn into our parents since they had the greatest influence on us when our brain was a sponge. parents instinctive know that their thoughts and beliefs will be ingrained upon their offspring if its done at a young age. a 10 year old has little control over what is told to them or drilled into their brain at such an innocent age.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blind_otter
My point was (he disagreed) - not everyone gets to that point, where they are able to/want to think about how they think, or why the believe what they believe.
i would tend to agree. it has much to do with intelligence and education at a very early age.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blind_otter
Like, being exposed to as many different outlooks and worldviews as possible, exposure to different cultures and religious systems. THat kinda thing.
but this must be done at a young age to be effective. I lived in three different countries and cultures before I turned eight and to this day I have a much more global view of the world.
Very interesting b_o. I don't know about when it develops or if it indeed does, though. I feel like I have been questioning and analyzing things since before college, though not successfully. I'm starting to think that going with this route you never get to one understanding but have to constantly evolve your thoughts and beliefs. I guess this is part of that uncertainty that so many seem to be frightened of.
If it makes you feel any better, the last part of your brain to mature (around 24-26/27 years old, depending) governs rational thought and decision making. This is why metacognition is impossible prior to this age, or if it is done it's a clumsy attempt at best.
It's interesting to note that developmentally children tend to move from inclusive to exclusive thinking. Prior to concrete operationalization, which happens around preschool, they just think that everyone knows what they know. They gradually learn to differentiate between what they think/know and what other individuals think/know -- prior to that everyone is just part of "me" to the child.
I wonder about this process and how it may be traumatic, for some children, to begin to understand the distance between who they are and who everyone else is.
I wonder about this process and how it may be traumatic, for some children, to begin to understand the distance between who they are and who everyone else is.
but this is part and parcel of the maturation process. this is how a child becomes and adult. it happens over a long period of time (as in years) so I don't see how it could be traumatic.
I grew up in an upper-middle class family and when I was a kid i just sorta assumed that everyone lived like us. It was quite an eye-opener when I discovered that most did not live like us. I was like...WTF?!
I have thought that the religious seem to not do much thinking for themselves, otherwise they probably wouldn't need to fall back on religion for comfort and security.
I agree. I think most overly religious people are closed minded and weak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale
I lived in three different countries and cultures before I turned eight and to this day I have a much more global view of the world.
I lived in 4 different countries before I was 8 (in 3 continents). I guess that makes me have a more global view of the world than you do
I agree. I think most overly religious people are closed minded and weak.
well of course they are HOOGHIE....if you need some book that was written 2000 yrs ago to guide your life then something is majorly wrong.
what intelligent and insightful people do is question everything and look at all the possible angles and then make their own conclusions. problem is that if youre under-educated and weak-minded and think inside the box then you're much more suseptible to being spoon-fed your thoughts and beliefs.
but this is part and parcel of the maturation process. this is how a child becomes and adult. it happens over a long period of time (as in years) so I don't see how it could be traumatic.
I grew up in an upper-middle class family and when I was a kid i just sorta assumed that everyone lived like us. It was quite an eye-opener when I discovered that most did not live like us. I was like...WTF?!
It seems like some people get stalled out at that stage. Maybe it's just a tender developmental stage in general. IN general I felt like WTF all the time as a kid. I've seen it countless times. People who cannot comprehend how another individual could think in a way that is any different from them...grown adults, too.
Anyways, Marx called religion the opiate of the masses for a reason.
Long story short, I was at one point christian then became disenchanted with organized religions and just maintained a personal worship. Fast forward to college and my getting a degree in the sciences. I took courses on religion and in philosophy as well and at some point "lost my faith."
What do you mean maintained a personal worship? Were you connecting with God at one point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by barfool
Sometimes I would find myself veiwing science almost as a religion, where I assume everthing I was learning was "the truth." I would quickly check myself and remember that science is just trying to find this truth but does not claim to have it. That is the beauty of science, the more you learn the more refined your understanding of the world is and the closer to the truth you become. Of course in that process you also learn that what you previously believed was wrong and what you currently believe may be wrong as well.
So, you are saying you lost your faith because of 'a process'? Or did you lose it because the Evolution theory is anti-theistic in nature? Other than that specific theory, I do not see any disharmony between science and religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barfool
I was just wondering if religious people go through this same kind of process as well, or is it just "I believe and therefore it must be right and the truth."
Religion is based on faith and the premise that there is more to life than just understanding the natural world, and the reality is not limited to the five sences. Science is limited to the five sences and the natural world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barfool
I have thought that the religious seem to not do much thinking for themselves, otherwise they probably wouldn't need to fall back on religion for comfort and security.
I dont know how your lot is in life, if you are part of the wealthy priviledged classes where everything seems to be going for them, but, as far as civil rights movements are concerned and social justice causes, religion has been very instrumental in giving people hope and equalising society. Furthermore, not everything in life is under control. Science does not answer why you are here, what purpose you have in life, where you are going after you die, or what is the whole point of everything? It doesn't answer why people are so wicked.
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i think this is a great thread...though i hate to see what becomes of it. 
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