The reason I get so pissy, is your claim about marriage exsisting before the Bible was written doesn't hold water. The word of God was here long before anything else ever was.
The Bible is God's word......marriage couldn't of exsisted before the very word of God. That's why I'm compelled to challenge you.......
I'm not attempting to change your opinion of what you believe and I know that nothing I say is going to make any difference because you will never, no matter how much evidence there is, disbelieve anything you currently believe.
Below is a list of anthropological evidence collected regarding the concept of marriage with an estimation of time periods. You may very well, and more than likely will, find fault in the list - I expect it. I'm not here to debate the merits or break each point into bits in order to prove its validity. My point is merely that while you claim the Bible is the ultimate in factual evidence there are many, even Christians, that accept alternate facts that can't be validated in the Bible.
The earliest writings in the Bible dates c. 1500 -1450 BCE, which is 2500 years after evidence of marriages are found in various cultures. I'm sure my list is a poor example of how much information has been obtained by anthropologists regarding early evidence of marriage.
[list][*]Sumerian Civilization (4000 BCE)- The sexual union of Inanna and Dumuzi ( Sumerian Gods/Goddesses) was the prototype of the Sumerian custom of the "sacred marriage."
[*]Ancient Egypt:
3000-2999 BCE or around 2980 Regent Queen Neithotep of Egypt. Chief wife was Queen Berenib, but Neithotep was the mother of his heir, Djer.
Around 2500 BCE Possible Queen Khent-Kaues I of Egypt. She was daughter of Menkau-Ra during the 4th dynasty, and married her brother Shepses-Kaf who succeeded his father to the throne.
Around 2295 BCE Regent Dowager Queen Iput of Egypt. She was the last of the 5th dynasty and married Faro Teti of the 6th Dynasty.
Around 2250-45 BCE Regent Dowager Queen Ankhesenmeryre I of Egypt. Together with her sister, Ankhesenmeryre II, she was married to Pepi I.
Ca. 2180 BCE Queen Nitocris of Egypt. She was daughter of Pepi II in the 6th dynasty, who became Queen, while her husband Meren-Ra II was not the pharaoh, at least for some time.
1939/38-1909 BCE God's Wife of Amon and Queen Neferu of Egypt. Neferu was the consort and Queen of Pharaoh Amenemhat I.
Around 1800 BCE Politically Active Queen Sabitu of Mari (Egypt). Also known as Szibitu, she acted as a regent during her husband, king Zimri-lim's numerous wars.
1594-after 1550 BCE Politically influential Queen Tetisheri of Egypt. She was a Queen during the 17th Dynasty in Thebes, and was the commoner wife of pharaoh Senachtenre (1594-1592). [/list=1]
Code of Hammurabi, c. 1780 BCE - Book written by the King of Babylonia - discusses marriage and its purpose within society.
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Last edited by Pocky; 26th July 2005 at 10:00 PM..
Below is a list of anthropological evidence collected regarding the concept of marriage with an estimation of time periods
your interesting fact-filled post raises makes me curious: was the entity we describe today as "marriage" in all its legal, social and spiritual definitions considered as such before the Sumerians of 4000 BCE? Foremost, we consider marriage a legal state, but what about those folks who were just becoming cognizant of things/started truly thinking rather than acting on impulse?
... also really needed to see this post bumped because of it's proximity to the "parade your penis here" post ....
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I was surprised as well that anyone in this day and age would actually believe that. You need only study your history books and do a little research in cultural anthropology to discover that all over the world even the most primitive of cultures practiced ceremonial matrimony l-o-n-g before the Christian crusades and the introduction of the Bible.
And still are.
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"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” ~ Mark Twain
Since, in biblical terms, marriage dates from Adam and Eve and this obviously precedes the writing of the bible, I'm not sure what point Moose is making. Maybe the man himself (Moose, I mean) should clarify?
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Originally posted by EnigmaXOXO
l-o-n-g before the Christian crusades.
You makin' a point here, or just being randomly offensive in an offtopic kind of way?
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That is not me in the photo. Nor is it my ass
"Christian Crusades" is an historical term. Not my own. If someone is off-handedly offended by that, I'm hardly the one qualified to handle the complaints. Anyone is free to look it up and come to their own conclusions.
My point? - The same as our thread starter. (I think? ) That marriage, in both its ceremonial and spiritual context predates the Bible and Christianity. And continues to exist all over the world even in non-Christian cultures. It existed on this very continent in which we live among the indigenous people long before the arrival of Christopher Columbus, the white settlers and Jesuit priests.
Whether a marriage is sanctioned by church or state (relatively new concepts in historical comparison) matters little to those ancient cultures still thriving in New Guinea, Asia, Indonesia, Amazon, ect. who are so far removed from the influence of modern-day society, organized religions and biblical standards.
Not only did "marriage" exist before the bible…but it still exists in absence of the bible, today. No single religion, belief system, culture or race can stake claim or ownership over the concept of "marriage." Only their own individual interpretations of it.
Pocky
What was the purpose of these ancient marriages?
I get the impression they were political marriages, and that seems like a far cry from homosexual love.
The Code of Hamurabi doesn't seem to explain the role of marriage. It all centers around property rights.
Quote:
EnigmaXOXO
You need only study your history books and do a little research in cultural anthropology to discover that all over the world even the most primitive of cultures practiced ceremonial matrimony l-o-n-g before the Christian crusades and the introduction of the Bible.
Same as it does now. Only MORE importance was/is placed on family…the continuation of future generations (survival of the people.)
Primitive cultures were/are deeply rooted in their spiritual and religious beliefs. Their very lives revolve around ceremony and prayer. Giving thanks EVERY DAY and creating ceremony to honor even the most mundane…the slaughter of an animal for food…the planting, the gathering, the birth of a child, the death of an elder, the right of passage into adulthood. Prayer, belief and daily worship/homage to a celestial creator responsible for their very existence was central.
"Marriage" was a right of passage just as important as the birth of a child, the crossing-over into the spiritual realm of an elder, or the puberty rites of a boy/girl entering into adulthood (which in many cultures even included circumcision just as it does with many Christian religions.)
Applying "ceremony" to matrimony was essential in beseeching the spirits or Creator for blessings. That the couple be prosperous and bare children (again…because baring healthy offspring was paramount to the survival of the people.)
Also, in a more practical sense…
Just as in modern day society, rivalry and jealousy naturally existed between individuals vying for suitable mate (bride). Ceremony also served to formally recognize two individuals as a married "couple" within these cultures and/or tribes thus eliminating (as much as possible) the potential for aggression, competition and "in-fighting" which could divide and separate the community in which your very existence depended on.
We see things differently Pocky.....as do a lot of people on this forum. From my perspective:
Everyone is missing the most obvious point here.
Man didn't exist until God created him. (Argue with me or not, that's what I believe)
The first man and woman was joined together by God. (For this cause shall a man leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife)
The first man and woman were here long before your history books, long before the Bible, long before Christianity.......what part of this do you not understand?
Besides, nothing would exist, PERIOD, unless God created it.
You waisted loads of time posting your dates and your historical facts, because they are null, and void. You yourself wouldn't be here unless God made it possible.
He is the creator of ALL things......I can't believe this is so hard for you to understand.
Just because we see things differently, and believe in a different time line, doesn't make either one of us a bad person, or a jerk like you called me earlier......just means our opinions differ.
One day, we will all know the truth. And I'll make a deal with you if we're able to communicate with one another on that day. I will kiss your ass if I'm wrong.......how's that?
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"The conscience water saw it's maker, and blushed" - Water to Wine......
Originally posted by Moose
You waisted loads of time posting your dates and your historical facts, because they are null, and void. You yourself wouldn't be here unless God made it possible.
Wish I could see things as simply as you do, Moose.
Originally posted by BlockHead Pocky
I get the impression they were political marriages, and that seems like a far cry from homosexual love.
Homosexuality has nothing to do with this post. It's not about homosexual marriage.
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Originally posted by Moose
Just because we see things differently, and believe in a different time line, doesn't make either one of us a bad person, or a jerk like you called me earlier......just means our opinions differ.
Having different opinions isn't a problem. I'm perfectly comfortable with your position regarding Christianity. You're not the first or the last Christian I will come in contact with as I complete my studies in religion. However, what does make you a jerk, like I called you earlier are moments like this:
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Originally posted by TineeTam
I'm saying that MARRIAGE is an instution sanctified by God. HE created marriage.
Quote:
Originally posted by Pocky
God did not create the concept of marriage. Marriage existed far before the Bible was ever written.
Quote:
Originally posted by Moose
Quote:
Originally posted by Pocky
God did not create the concept of marriage. Marriage existed far before the Bible was ever written.
This is only your opinion......it's not fact, you don't know, you weren't there, quit assuming you know this as fact......where is your proof? We have ours.....it's documented fact by God Himself. This is only our opinion too, and we admit that....why can't the rest of you?
God put MAN and WOMAN together, for this cause shall a man leave his Mother and cleave to his wife.....it's in the Scriptures, this is our proof.
You're a living example of how the world twists this concept......hence, what is this world coming to.
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I've made my point - there is nothing more I need to elaborate on.
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) That marriage, in both its ceremonial and spiritual context predates the Bible and Christianity. And continues to exist all over the world even in non-Christian cultures. It existed on this very continent in which we live among the indigenous people long before the arrival of Christopher Columbus, the white settlers and Jesuit priests. 
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