Explanations about a sudden drop in sex frequency: Am I being naive?
Explanations about a sudden drop in sex frequency: Am I being naive?
This is a long post and I apologize but I need to fully sketch out the background because I want input on a few questions posed below. I am new here and don’t know what is overly graphic, although I have been doing a lot of reading on these boards, so bear with me.
When my wife and I were dating, we had sex every day. She said then that "two ex-boyfriends" had told her that she had a "high libido." We each initiated sex 50% of the time. During the time we dated, she gained some weight and had a run of job stress. (I say this because it's an important detail later in the post. She is aware that I don't care about the weight gain.)
These things did not affect the frequency, or who initiated, sex. When we were dating, she asked me if my desired frequency of sex was indeed every day, and I replied yes, it was. She replied that hers was "3 or 4 times a week." I thought that an _extremely_ odd thing to say, but I had been with women (plural) who said that sex was something they could take or leave, didn't really care so much about, yet they initiated sex CONSTANTLY. I took this remark the same way I had taken it in two other cases: words simply didn't match actions. I asked her "if we get married, will our sexual frequency drop below 3 to 4 times a week?” She answered “no.”
The day after our wedding... (you guessed it!) sex dropped to two or three times per week, me initiating 100% of the time. It was almost like some sort of joke. I literally had to beg for sex the next _morning_. After my wedding night! I knew something was wrong, so I asked her about it and hit these forums. I got the book “sexless marriage” as has been suggested here. When she and I talked, I got an explanation that she’s out of shape and is feeling stress in her job. I explained that these things had been ongoing and hadn’t affected things before, and besides, how could she be claiming being “out of shape” had anything to do with it when I literally do ALL the work? (She prefers missionary). All I got was eye rolling, sarcasm, and no resolution. That “high libido” her exes described, she now admitted, might not have been accurate. "I'm good for 2 or 3 times a week," she countered. Good for? 2 or 3? Is this a race to the bottom?
The book Sexless Marriage doesn’t really help ME understand her. I totally for the life of me cannot understand why if you purport to like sex you’d say you only want to have it “3 or 4 times a week.” Huh?? Let’s review. You like it. Gotcha. You only want it every other day. What?? So, I asked her about it. More eye rolling. She did say that it’s “like riding a rollercoaster,” so I asked if that meant it’s fun but makes you sick. No, she said, and proceeded to get angry. If not every day, why not be _somewhat_ sexual? Why not oral, which she loved to receive on a daily basis when we were dating? Again, this “exhausted” explanation. Too exhausted to have an orgasm? Too exhausted to literally lie back, unmoving, and be lapped? I have not shared the book yet, as I have been hesitating to do so. The book does not quite hit the nail on the head describing me: it talks about emotional needs, and sure, I’d include that, but it’s a bit more. I need to drink water every day to maintain a healthy body. Similarly, sex every day reflects and maintains the state of the relationship (or at least it did in my world before I met her.) Saying something akin to “I’d prefer to drink water 3 or 4 times a week” baffles me. Must I be in the right so-called “mood” to hug and kiss my wife? Should perhaps I try loving her 3 or 4 times a week, not every day? I literally cannot fathom this.
I have often said that men separate love and sex before marriage, and women separate them after marriage.
I asked her tonight if she finds me less desirable. No, she says, going back to the old “out of shape and job stress.” I again pointed out that these were in place when we dated, and didn’t seem to impact us. She then jumped on me because “it sounds like you expect sex every day.” I tried to communicate that it’s confusing when you are in fact having it every day, and then it stops, and that my questions here are “why did you stop initiating?” and “never mind having it every day, why don’t you DESIRE it every day?”
Help me fill in the blanks, folks. I just don’t see the Sexless Marriage book hitting all the cylinders. Some, maybe. I know I’m thick headed in this department... Why is sexuality the one area that’s allowed to be on again, off again? An integral part of life and love, and many of us thin kit’s fine to yank it out and say “see this one thing? You have to be in the mood for it, and you’re bad if you think it’s an integral part of a loving relationship, because it’s optional. It’s okay to expect love and commitment in marriage, but not physical union, never mind even expecting a desire for it”
My wife insists this has nothing to do with desire, and said tonight that she’ll start exercising. I asked outright if orgasm is really so draining (remember, during some sex acts, I am the one doing, she is receiving.) She got angry again. So I don’t leave anything relevant out, she won’t get her Testosterone checked, and no longer masturbates (she _used_ to, at least once per week).
Am I deluding myself believing things will change? Did she maybe decide to keep up an act until marriage? Am I a fool to believe that desire really has zero to do with it, and all of a sudden, the being out of shape and the job stress are the problems? We have been married five months. To this day, I have never received a straightforward answer as to why everything changed the day after we got married.
She resents that we seem to have this conversation periodically (three times we have addressed these same points.) I think she’d let the book collect dust, but I’ll give it a try if that’s what people think (remember, this isn’t a case of “it couldn’t hurt.” It very well COULD hurt things, and boost resentment through the roof.) We try to keep communication open, but handing a book over is more of a mandate.
I appreciate any input especially from women who can explain if any of the reasons my wife gives are believable.
But more importantly, 3-4 times a week does NOT make a marriage 'Sexless'!!!!! There isn't a dating couple that doesn't spend a few months climbing all over each other every moment they can. It wears off for most couples - if nothing else, because other things need to be done in life.
It's unfortunate that she led you to believe that she'd want it more, but maybe she thought she would. Perhaps she thought that early-relationship horniness would last longer.
At any rate, be happy you're getting it that often and visit Rosie Palmer and her Five Sisters the rest of the time. Oh, you could get her to read the book (though it is for literally sex less marriages - as in people not having sex for weeks or months at a time) or go to a counsellor, but it's highly likely it would do you no good. You'll find very few women who'll consistently want sex every single day for months and years on end and I promise you right now there are a lot of men reading your post and pulling their hair out because they can't get it even once a week, some once a month, and even some once a year.
I don't know what planet you've been living on but you mustn't ever read or hear any health news to do with human sexuality. If you did, everything I just wrote would be redundant to you.
I agree, 3-4 times a week is quite a lot in an average marriage. I myself would want to have sex every day or every few hours if I had my way but with my H usually once every few days is enough.
Anyway, I wasn't always like that. I went through a period when I first got married of not wanting sex at all. This lasted two years. I don't know what made me feel like that. The whole big huge change in my life maybe. The thought that I would never be single again, my life would never be the same again. Once I got used to this and relaxed, stopped getting annoyed with the little stupid things he used to do (or not do) around the house I wanted it all the time.
The reality is, if she has a full time job, and has to look after the house, maybe she just wants to relax and watch the tv when she comes home, and then go to sleep. Maybe she doesn't want to have sex everynight. I used to find it exhausting even kissing my H for awhile.
Anyway, I think you should give her a break...try cooking her a romantic dinner. Is your need for sex making you ignore her other needs of intimacy? Men always seem to associate intimacy with sex whereas women feel they would like to cuddle more. I used to be afraid to do anythign with my H because he always expected it to lead to sex, which wasn't what I wanted. Maybe this is why she doesn't initiate anything??
Also, there is a book called the five languages of love that people have mentioned here before. I read it and thought it was very good. Maybe you could get it and explain to your wife that you're langauge of love is physical. She might want you to TELL her everyday that you love her but you might want her to sex with you everyday, that that is how she should tell you she loves you.
hormonal (low sex drive due to hormone imbalance - where sex isn't even considered or thought about in the mind, much less done physically)
emotional (depression, anxiety, stress)
physical (weight, body image)
personal (someone for whom sex is part of the hunt and not necessary after the kill, and she just doesn't like having to do it when she doesn't feel she 'needs' to)
Whatever it is, you'll need to figure out what it is and what it [/i]isn't[/i]. Treating for one thing, while leaving another untreated or unaddressed will likely just make the problem worse. What won't work is begging/pleading/bargaining - you already know she isn't going to do it, now its time to find out why and address that and work out some possible compromises/coping mechanisms.
Have you two considered any marriage counseling or therapy to talk not about the sex problems necessarily but how they are affecting your relationship?
__________________ No man chooses evil because it is evil; he only mistakes it for happiness, the good he seeks. --Mary Wollstonecraft
Sex every day isn't a reasonable expectation. That's only reasonable in the beginnings of the relationship when the physiological aspects of "falling in love" are in play....you know, hormones and pheromones.
The average for young married people is probably 3-4 times a week, and more like once or twice a week towards middle age.
Further, she's rolling her eyes at you because statements like, "I asked if that meant it’s fun but makes you sick" and "I asked outright if orgasm is really so draining" are really coming off as smart-a$$. It's just inflammatory criticism. Really, unless you have an honest wish to hear her POV, then it's NOT really a discussion, is it?
Your young wife did not mislead you or trap you into marriage. This is just the way women work. Our bodies are subject to hormonal changes on a monthly basis. Our need for procreation as human animals is not consistant like it often is for men.
As far as exhaustion is concerned, that's sometimes valid. When we're tired or stressed, our libido is the first to suffer. We don't have the sexual drive programmed by nature that men do. Testosterone levels for women rise usually about twice a month, right before ovulation and right before menstruation.
While it's important for both partners to have satisfaction in their sexual relationship, it's also important for their expectations to be reasonable and to show understanding for each other's needs.
Your best bet in resolving any issue, this one included, is to find compromise that is satisfactory to you both, and to keep your communications open and focused on the issues at hand.
marriage makes it boring. My friend and her fiance dated over a year, and were so hot for each other they did it all the time.
But I visited her a month after her wedding, and she said that it wasn't as exciting any more...she didn't have to be quiet, they didn't sneak behind a building to do it, they didn't have to try to NOT do it...they were married. Now, instead of sex being fun and sexy, it was expected and required.
Also, sex is a priority before marriage. YOu have to plan on it. You have to book a hotel, you have to find a place to park, you have to be sneaky...after marriage, you can just walk to the bedroom, take your clothes off and do it.
My sex drive has plumeted lately. We were doing it about three times a week, but work stress made me not want it at ALL for the past week....that and I'm sick of blow jobs
Also, birth control, or other medications can interefere with libido.
Originally posted by yuv
Why is sexuality the one area that’s allowed to be on again, off again? An integral part of life and love, and many of us thin kit’s fine to yank it out and say “see this one thing? You have to be in the mood for it, and you’re bad if you think it’s an integral part of a loving relationship, because it’s optional. It’s okay to expect love and commitment in marriage, but not physical union, never mind even expecting a desire for it”
I totally for the life of me cannot understand why if you purport to like sex you’d say you only want to have it “3 or 4 times a week.” Huh?? Let’s review. You like it. Gotcha. You only want it every other day. What?? So, I asked her about it. More eye rolling. She did say that it’s “like riding a rollercoaster,” so I asked if that meant it’s fun but makes you sick. No, she said, and proceeded to get angry. If not every day, why not be _somewhat_ sexual? Why not oral, which she loved to receive on a daily basis when we were dating? Again, this “exhausted” explanation. Too exhausted to have an orgasm? Too exhausted to literally lie back, unmoving, and be lapped? I have not shared the book yet, as I have been hesitating to do so. The book does not quite hit the nail on the head describing me: it talks about emotional needs, and sure, I’d include that, but it’s a bit more. I need to drink water every day to maintain a healthy body. Similarly, sex every day reflects and maintains the state of the relationship (or at least it did in my world before I met her.) Saying something akin to “I’d prefer to drink water 3 or 4 times a week” baffles me. Must I be in the right so-called “mood” to hug and kiss my wife? Should perhaps I try loving her 3 or 4 times a week, not every day? I literally cannot fathom this.
Because people are different. And people change.
You compare your need for sex to your body's need for water in order to survive. That's fine, because that's probably how you truly view your need for sex. But consider this for a moment. Not EVERYBODY needs sex like they need water. Not EVERYBODY is exactly like you. Perhaps your wife views her need for sex to her need to have a Pepsi. She doesn't have to have a Pepsi every day in order for her life to be complete. Her body certainly doesn't NEED a Pepsi every day in order to survive. So she has a Pepsi every other day instead. Maybe some days she's too busy or stressed out to even remember to go to the fridge and get a Pepsi. Or maybe some days she feels sick and doesn't want a Pepsi. But when she does have a Pepsi, she likes it and enjoys it.
My point is that a person can like something and enjoy it, without needing it every day. It's completely normal that she has changed her frequency and doesn't want to have sex EXACTLY the same amount that she used to want when you were dating. People change. And people have different wants and needs.
I agree with the other posters that having sex 3-4 times a week is quite a bit for a married couple. And by no means does it make a marriage sexless. I'd imagine that your wife probably resents your conversations about all of this because she can't imagine for the life of her why you would label your marriage sexless when you guys have sex a lot more than most other married couples. Sure, you don't have sex as much as you did when you were dating, but that's NORMAL.
Thanks for the input on this so far. You folks are GREAT. This kind of discussion is what I _really_ want.
moimeme-
We dated a year.
"You'll find very few women who'll consistently want sex every single day for months" Well, I need to know this. I dated two that _did_.
"you mustn't ever read or hear any health news"
To reiterate what I posted: in the post I said she said she DESIRED 3 or 4 times per week. I typed that after we were married, she said "I'm good for 2 or 3 times a week," and that's what it was. At present it's once per week. This marriage, again, is 5 months old.
li'l bunny-We are not having sex 3 or 4 times per week. It's only what she said at the outset.
"if she has a full time job, and has to look after the house,"
FWIW looking after the house is 100% my job, which we both agreed to. I vacuum, clean, do laundry, wash dishes, for example.
"Maybe she doesn't want to have sex everynight."
Well, this is really the heart of my post. As I note, women separate love and sex after marriage. The two apparently aren't integral? one doesn't necessarily help build and sustain the other?
"I used to find it exhausting even kissing my H for awhile."
Believe it or not, although I cannot fathom this, it does help me to understand a little because it runs parallel to some of the things she says.
"Men always seem to associate intimacy with sex whereas women feel they would like to cuddle more."
We discussed this also; cuddling is _closeness_, not intimacy. Roommates can cuddle. Friends can cuddle. Intimacy is something entirely different. I have cuddled with my sister on occasion. I have not, however, been intimate with her. True intimacy is what sets the marriage relationship apart from other relationships.
"there is a book called the five languages of love"
Saw this mentioned in the forums and have ordered a copy. One website criticized it saying that they managed to fit a simple idea that could have been said in a few pages into an entire book, but I still very much want to read the book anyway. Is it something I should share with my wife, or would it be better to read it, guess which style is hers, and act accordingly? Does it take something away if I ask her to read the book and tell me her style?
LucreziaBorgia- see, this is exactly what I am looking for. We have indeed discussed counseling but only for ME. That is to say, I offered to go if she thought that the way I desire her is excessive or disordered. This is a new idea, counseling for how this is affecting our marriage. If there were a shot or pill that I could take every other day to make me indifferent and unloving to her (as if I were simply a roommate) I'd take it in a minute, believe it. I think I should wait until the next time we discuss it for me to offer to have us go to counseling because of how it is affecting us, and not go to counseling because of the presence or absence of love on alternating days.
Ladyjane14-Every day... I think I've covered that one.
"It's just inflammatory criticism. Really, unless you have an honest wish to hear her POV, then it's NOT really a discussion, is it?"
Well, help me out, then. I was under the impression that I should listen and repeat what she says back, then verbalize my understanding of what she has said. If someone said that sex is like a rollercoaster... Is there another way to interpret that? I offer oral to her while sheis reclined, but it's too much. So, what exactly is too strenuous about it? The orgasm itself?
Do you see what I'm saying? How else would communication take place? How else might I phrase these questions?
"and to keep your communications open and focused on the issues at hand.:
Agreed totally. Please can you can give me feedback about a better approach than my listen, repeat, interpret. I don't want brick walls between me and my wife.
"As far as exhaustion is concerned, that's sometimes valid." I need to hear this ladies as it helps validate what my wife is saying. I am only now beginning to understand these things. Remember, this is NEW to me. Two girlfriends and my fiancee (now wife) sent entirely different messages through their actions.
Originally posted by yuv
As I note, women separate love and sex after marriage. The two apparently aren't integral? one doesn't necessarily help build and sustain the other?
Yep. It's confusing, I know. Men can have a single sexual encounter and later say...."It's just sex", and that seems to work for them. They've separated love from sex in that incident. But after they've given their hearts and fallen in love, it's extremely difficult for them to separate love from sex in regards to the object of their affection. They need to feel sexually attractive to their mate in order to feel loved by her.
It's not that women never have similar trouble. But overall, we do a better job at separating the two, I think.
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Well, help me out, then. I was under the impression that I should listen and repeat what she says back, then verbalize my understanding of what she has said. If someone said that sex is like a rollercoaster... Is there another way to interpret that? I offer oral to her while sheis reclined, but it's too much. So, what exactly is too strenuous about it? The orgasm itself?
Do you see what I'm saying? How else would communication take place? How else might I phrase these questions?
"Listen, Repeat, and Interpret" is a pretty good communication tool.....when you're actually doing it. When you are extrapolating additional information from the initial comments though, you're interpreting on comments that weren't initially there. When did she say anything about getting "sick" regarding the "rollercoaster" analogy? If she didn't say it, then it's an assumption on your part.
And as far as the "too strenuous" comment, you're free to say when something doesn't make sense to you. You can still be maintaining good communication, AND ask questions when the information you're getting doesn't compute. The trick is...not to take it into smart-a$$ territory.
When you're partner is having obvious trouble verbalizing a thought, it's perfectly okay to ask her for clarification or even to supply her with possible alternatives to her phrasing. You can say things like, "Are you too tired today? Is it physical 'tired' like you need to sleep? Or is it emotional 'tired' like you need to recharge? What can I do to help you with that?"
You're intent is to show a sincere desire to understand her viewpoint, which is a separate issue from providing her with your own. You've already shared your POV. "Listen, Repeat, and Interpret" is about reaching an understanding of hers.
I really liked Something Blue's analogy about water and Pepsi. Men and women are just different in the way that they think. The exploration of the differences is part of the journey.
Originally posted by moimeme
? I don't get it, Lucrezia. You think all women have sex daily and therefore this woman needs to have herself checked out??????
In the five months she's been married, she is now initiating sex 0% of the time, has 0% motivation to have sex, her frequency of having sex has dropped to once a week and even then its obligational as in 'agreeing to do it'. This is after a courtship that was highly sexual, with highly sexual previous relationships.
It isn't that she isn't having sex every day - its that she has completely lost any motivation to have sex at all. Does she need to have it checked out? Maybe, maybe not - but one thing is clear: it needs to be addressed in the context of this relationship. Even if it is 100% normal for her - it is not working for him. It needs to be working for both partners.
Is it normal to go from "sex as a result of desire" to "sex as an obligation" in just five months? Maybe for some people it is, but I just gave some possible explanations for the 'sexual bait and switch' in this relationship - it isn't unusual for that to happen.
Any marriage counseling would have to be about compromise and making it clear what each partner needs, and learning to communicate those needs.
I note, women separate love and sex after marriage. The two apparently aren't integral? one doesn't necessarily help build and sustain the other?
Actually, no, it's the other way 'round. Being tired or irritated or in any way disconnected can chop the libido off as fast as Lorena's knife chopped off her husband's tingly bits. She *has* to feel loved to be horny. There are some women who can just go straight to horniness but it's not the majority.
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We discussed this also; cuddling is _closeness_, not intimacy
Roommates can cuddle. Friends can cuddle
Oh my dear. You have so much to learn!!! Lovers must cuddle. Physical intimacy between lovers requires all types of physical contact from kisses and hugs - with NO sex expected - to sex itself. And if you don't engage in the nonsexual types, bud, then you can kiss your sex life goodbye.
It's starting to sound as though you've taken the 'typical man' stereotype to heart and are following it as a way of life; i.e. pay no physical attention to her, don't flirt or hug or kiss her, until you hit the bed and then you expect sex.
Yes, she was up for more sex during courtship. Few humans aren't - male and female. But the hormones that get you going that much early on in the relationship start to fade away after a while and then you actually have to woo her.
Read John Grey's Men are from Mars, etc. He's got some good tips.
I think cuddling with people that you're not banging, or ever intending to bang, is freaky. Anyone ever heard of cuddle parties? Sheesh.
Don't poo poo being overweight as her libido killer. She may have just really realized that she's put on the pounds, and if she's feeling unattractive to herself nothing you say or do is going to convince her otherwise.
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This is just the way women work. Our bodies are subject to hormonal changes on a monthly basis. Our need for procreation as human animals is not consistant like it often is for men.
Men can have a single sexual encounter and later say...."It's just sex", and that seems to work for them. They've separated love from sex in that incident. But after they've given their hearts and fallen in love, it's extremely difficult for them to separate love from sex in regards to the object of their affection. They need to feel sexually attractive to their mate in order to feel loved by her.
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