I've been doing hours and hours of reading here and on other forums about affairs. In fact, that's about all I've done the past couple of weeks - trying to understand what drives and motivates people, including myself.
One of the things that I keep reading over and over is how these betrayed spouses have to "work" so hard at trusting again and "getting the feelings back" and that type of thing. It seems they all live their lives on an hourly basis questioning their spouses, either outright, or through other means (tapping into e-mail, phone messages, etc.) and for many, there are second and sometimes even third D-days. In all of the reading I've done, most others respond by saying that the betrayed spouse will never get over it, it will always be an issue and other similar things, but encourage them to "hang in there" and to hold the marriage together - seemingly at their own emotional expense. Many write about how, months, and even years later, they are still dealing with these issues. Over and over I've read the same comments - I don't feel the same. I'll never love him/her the same. Everyday is a struggle to get through. It's been X number of years, and I still think of it everyday. I/he/she still has these "triggers." Not a single time have I read anything to indicate that the affair "helped" the marriage o relationship in any way.
So that leaves me wondering why someone - man or woman - would want to "save" or "salvage" a relationship for that type of outcome. Personally, I can't imagine living day in and day out with someone that I knew I could never trust again, nor could I live in a relationship in which those "feelings" were not present. What would be the point? Is all of this hard work really worth it in the end and if so, why? What does the betrayed spouse really gain? What kind of relationship could it be when you have to work so hard at the basics? Would it be worth it to get out of bed every morning wondering if he or she was "comparing" me to the OP? Or sitting there wondering if he or she was wishing they were really with the OP? Or a myriad of other thoughts. I understand that relationships have to be worked at, but just the normal day in and day out aspects of working on any relationship are hard enough, but when compounded by an affair, it just doesn't seem worth it in the end, because everything I've read indicates these people are never really happy again. In one forum I've been reading, there is a section for those that are those who are "beyond the initial trauma and are now dealing with legacy issues, after the first year and sometimes later in recovery. It is designed to be a safe place that is free from constant reminders of the initial trauma," but even there, 1, 2, 3 or more years out, these people are dealing with the same issues.
Again, I can't help but wonder if ultimately most people wouldn't be better off to end the relationship and at least try to find happiness with someone else. Comments?
Well, kids are always a big part of the answer......many will hang in there for the kids. My honest opinion is nobody should stay in a loveless relationship just for the sake of kids. I guess the other part of the reason is just getting "comfortable" in the relationship, no matter what it's like. Most people, once in long term relationships, settle for a relationship without much emotional involvement, more or less taking it for granted......It's like "well this is what it's supposed to be so what the hell". And then again, some are just plain scared of getting out there and doing it all over again.
As for your question whether it's worth it.....I dunno, it's a very subjective area.......for some it is (for whichever reason), for some it's not and they go on.........I don't think there is a straight answer to that.
I'm not certain you understood my points, MM, or I didn't convey them well.
As for staying in a relationship for the kids, I can understand that to some degree though that would not be my choice. I absolutely do not understand what you mean by just getting "comfortable" because that is exactly what I'm talking about. These people that have been betrayed are NOT comfortable in any sense of the word. Also, talking about the lack of emotional involvement, it would seem that many of these affairs are started because of lack of emotional involvement, but then, after the affair, the emotional involvement really isn't there other than on some perverse level of trying to "save" the relationship. Or maybe it would be better stated to say that the emotional involvement of the relationship is so buried in trying to "save" the relationship, in spite of the doubt, lack of trust, and worry that there doesn't seem to be room for much more than the salvation of what for many ends up being an empty relationship. And, too, from all that I've read, although these affairs don't necessarily "end" in divorce, apparently a large percentage of marriages do end further down the road - 4-5 years later - but at that point, it isn't deemed as the actual result of the affair. In reality, it is because the life blood of the relationship was sucked out as a result of the affair. Just a slow death.
These people that have been betrayed are NOT comfortable in any sense of the word
Comfortable in a sense they would rather stay in the relationship, regardless of the affair, that go out there and seek out something new. I guess once in a long, long relationship things such as "being in love", trust and other "basics" or "essentials" we so seek in relationship are put on the backburner while stuff such as financial and other security, kids etc. take over being essential. I don't know, just my thoughts....I may be wrong - I am a man after all......
Originally posted by MMBastard
Comfortable in a sense they would rather stay in the relationship, regardless of the affair, that go out there and seek out something new. I guess once in a long, long relationship things such as "being in love", trust and other "basics" or "essentials" we so seek in relationship are put on the backburner while stuff such as financial and other security, kids etc. take over being essential. I don't know, just my thoughts....I may be wrong - I am a man after all......
Well, something tells me you are wrong - at least partly, but since I don't know the answer who's to say? What is making me think you are "wrong" about some of this is the comment on trust. From all I've read, trust is the one thing that never returns. Even the financial, other securities, and kids don't seem worth the turmoil these people go through - especially the "other securities." It just doesn't seem like there are many "other securities" for them since many seem to be living day by day wondering if that spouse is going to suddenly walk out one day, start another affair, or other such things.
Maybe it's just something I'll never understand, but I don't think it is anything I could do or would even want to do.
lonestar-
your questions are some of the things that are really puzzling me about why my MM chose to stay in his marriage and more importantly why his W has chosen to as well.
supposedly he had an affair about 10 years ago, and from what he told me his marriage had been loveless for about the last 5-6. that she had stated frequently that she was leaving when their youngest left this summer for college. some of that changed and was postponed for a year so she had wanted to hang in there for one more year. she had even, supposedly, talked to an attorney.
i understand, keeping things together for one more year (sort of). but i never agree that staying together just for the kids is the right thing to do. i tried to do that and ended up probably doing more damage to my kids by staying than by leaving and i wish i'd left my marriage sooner. my kids dealt with it well and i think are happier having their mom "back." when i asked my MM why they were chosing to try and work things out his response.... "because of what we've been through." that's probably the lamest thing i've ever heard, and i told him that. not because they really do love each other and not because they really want to make it work but because of history?!?! so, i'm left wondering. don't know if he's lying to me....
one of the messages i got from her was that "it was not his first affair and wouldn't be his last." if i personally felt this way that guy, no matter how much i loved him, would find himself on the curb as quickly as i could throw his stuff there.
so yes, it all puzzles me as well. i think he's afraid. he's afraid she'll try to ruin his relationship with his kids although because of their ages i doubt she could do that. i think he's afraid of starting over, i think he's afraid of being alone. so yes, in some ways as bad as his situation is and as uncomfortable as a loveless marriage might be he's "comfortable" there, knows what happens day to day, can go "home" to a place and people who are familiar.... makes no sense to me at all!!!
It is confusing to me, izzy, and perhaps something I may never understand. C'est la vie! All I know is that I'm not the type that could ever be comfortable in the type of relationship you described - the day in and day out stuff. There's more to life and I want more from it than that sort of existence. In some respects, that's the reason I'm in the jam I'm in now. (and yes, I do contradict even myself somewhat) I was never the "perfect" OW and I continuously fought against being in that position of having to wonder, question, worry, doubt. And I must admit, I raised quite a bit of hell (some would say a bunch!) along the way, and more times than I can count, would say - MAKE A DECISION! And he would, only to renig on that decision. Even that - being in a non-decisive state - is more than I could bear.
Where the contradiction ends for me, though, is at the point of the way he went about doing this. I'm exceedingly angry and bitter over the tactics used. Not the ultimate decision as much as the tactics. He knew that if he simply told me, "Done! Finished!" that I would never cross his path again. Why put someone through unnecessary agony. And the irony, from all that I've read, is that I would bet money on the fact that his relationship with his wife will be a 1000 times worse than it was even in the beginning. He'll eventually leave, I have no doubt. But certainly, she is one of those that will hang in there - living life miserably - until the day he finally walks out. It's all really sad when you think about it. My agony the past two weeks has been the worst of my life, but I think I've taken a baby step (teeny-tiny) across the line. I think I'm feeling better - just a tad. But there misery is just beginning and will likely go on much longer than mine. Must admit...I derive some small element of satisfaction from that thought. He has to get up and look in the mirror every day and I'd bet he hates himself. She has to get up and look at him every day and wonder if this will be the day he'll call me. Me? I only have to get up and look at myself, and when I do, I can look myself square in the eyes and say...yeah, it happened, but you know, I really did care. That isn't so terribly bad.
lonestar -
so much of what you say rings so true. i've lost track of how long it's been since things ended. i used to post here under a different name and when i mentioned to him one day that i'd found help on line, i could tell he was uncomfortable with me posting our "story" out there somewhere that his wife might see. so i removed myself from the system. i was still so much trying to do everything "right" in his eyes to try and save our relationship. since then i've realized that i could care less if his wife sees this and i could care less if it makes him uncomfortable, if this helps me, then right now that's what matters most.
although i know i brought a lot of my angony on myself, it is his tactics, as well, that have really pi**ed me off at this point too. he never told me NC, he told me he had agreed he wouldn't but that i could be in touch. and he would always thank me for calling. needless to say as i've gotten stronger our conversations have changed and i'm now at the point where i just need to get it all out in the open with him, in person, for me to have peace and be able to move on. so many times he told me he didn't want to lose "us" that i was important to him, that his feelings hadn't changed for me but he needed to "get through this." that all started happening back in april. it's just been about a month ago that he informed me that he was now committed to giving his marriage one more try. this after telling me he was done trying, his marriage wasn't worth the paper it was printed on, that trying to save his marriage was like trying to move the empire state building, etc. etc.
recently i had to have a major medical test to see if my cancer had come back and he knew i was freaking out about it. i asked him to be there as a friend, nothing else, that i could talk to vent to and just know he was there supporting me from a distance. although i got the impression he would, because he said he still loved me.... he seemed to care less what was happening to me. said he did but the actions, or lack there of, spoke volumes. he has only begun to understand how much that hurt (even more than him ending things) and ultimately how angry that's made me.
i have no doubt that he's nervous about talking to me, i'm nervous too, but i know i have to do it or i will forever have these nagging feelings in my head and heart. like you, i will never understand why things happened the way they did. i haven't seen him since the beginning of may so it will be interesting. i really doubt that much of anything he's ever said to me was true. he says it was and that he hasn't lied to me. of course, i think that's a lie too. i need my face to face encounter so i can read his face and body language and come to terms that i think he's just a lying sack of sh**!
Well, izzy, I sincerely hope you get the closure you are hoping for. That will do so much to help you in the end. You mentioned you need to read his face and body language to come to terms with whether he was lying to you or not. Just remember, he has apparently lied to you for quite some time and you didn't read it then, so don't be so certain you will read it with any degree of accuracy now. And please, make no mistake. I am not being even remotely critical of what you feel you need to do. I've been in that very precise spot far too many times. I posted on here a couple of weeks ago that I would have staked all I held near and dear on the fact that Mr. XXX would never do to me what he has done. I was obviously terribly wrong.
This is interesting, though and part of the point I was trying to make:
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it's just been about a month ago that he informed me that he was now committed to giving his marriage one more try. this after telling me he was done trying, his marriage wasn't worth the paper it was printed on, that trying to save his marriage was like trying to move the empire state building, etc. etc.
On all of these other boards I've been reading, this is a common thing, but over and over, I've read nothing but pain and heartache (heartbreak?) when these "one more tries" are attempted. I have not read one single solitary post that said that things (life, love, sex) were back to normal, nor have I read a single post that indicated the marriage was "stronger" as a result. Honestly, what I'm beginning to believe is that the betrayed spouse lures the other back through some sort of guilt/pity. The betrayer stays due to guilt, but in the meantime, the betrayed spouse slowly loses any connection that might have been there. In my opinion, these marriages are doomed - if not to divorce, then to a lifetime of misery. I'd rather be single than wake up every morning wondering if today was the day. Or to sit across the room from my spouse wondering if they were thinking of the OP.
First of all, you'd be surprised how many people choose to stay, especially if it's the first time (they know of) that it's happened....
I look back now and I think if I had my head on straight when my husband confessed to talking to this woman when we were dating, first 2 years of our marriage (during my pregnancy and having our baby) and then started back for a year before they cheated, I would have NOT gotten back with him. In my mind, I feel like I was also his second choice. But only because he was being silly and stupid about a teenage love affair that was halted due to his moving away. He is very romantic so what hurts me is that he romantized about this woman for 14 yrs. He found out (during our separation and his continued contact) that she wasn't someone he wanted to be with (she'd been married 3 times already) but it took his cheating and dealing with her to realize it.
My husband is the sweetest, kindest and most religious person I know. He was a minister when this happened, he was MY minister. I was so shocked at his revelation of having sex with her and longing for her all those years then the fact she was at least 700 miles away, married 3 times and had 4 kids that I felt I needed to save him from her. Also, our belief is that living in adultry will send you to HELL! Plus, I realized I really loved him and didn't want to lose him!!
I went way beyond what I should have to work things out......I woke up a year later and realized I was the one betrayed but I made all the sacrifices to make the marriage work. Our sex life wasn't great (I remember sobbing in the shower thinking, he'd risk his soul to have sex with her but he doesn't want me), he wouldn't communicate at the time (I was begging for love notes, e-mails and adoration) so one day, I felt it in my heart, something died, it wasn't my love as much as my will.....
On top of all that, I had the "triggers" that made me remember the affair. The worse of all triggers is the fact she and I share the same name. I wouldn't and couldn't let him call me by name when he would say he loved me. I had the wonderful experience of him being away on a business trip on the very date he was away a year earlier and slept with that woman. So many things triggered it. I was getting counseling but we weren't getting couple's counseling.....that may have been the biggest problem.....
5 months after whatever that was died.....I started my affair. Wanna know something sick?? I completely could deal with his affair during that time. I didn't have triggers, I felt even more love and happiness with him!! I could deal with his affair when having my affair. What bothers me the most about my affair is that I did to another woman what was done to me. I remember saying, that I wouldn't have my worst enemy feel the way I did and here I went and caused an innocent woman the same feelings. Was it revenge?? Sadly that is very possible.....
Was it worth it to stay? Maybe now it is. We are both cheaters so I guess misery loves company. I will never look at him the same way I did before I found out he cheated. I haven't worn my wedding ring since that day nor have I allowed him to wear his. I feel like those vows we took were broken (twice) and that, that part of our lives, died.
I love my husband. He is special to me and I want him to be happy and have a good life. But I'm never 100% happy in my marriage anymore, I never feel safe and secure that I can count on him (and I'm sure I've caused him to feel the same way too, which makes me even more sad). My innocence is totally lost now (of which we are both at fault) and that is something I can never get back. Currently I'm looking into couples counseling......
Can it be worth it? I guess so....maybe if the betrayed can gets shock treatments or become heavily sedated....no really, I have heard of some couples becoming happier and such.....
If I had to do it over again......I may have stayed long enough for him to get that woman out of his system (so my child wouldn't have "that" for a step-mother) then when I realized the marriage still wasn't where it needed to be, I'd left. Or maybe things would have improved had we had counseling together.....
lonestar -
the "odd" thing about my relationship with my MM has been that it's been 99% long distance. our relationship started in january, we've only been physically together 3 times. so most of my conversations have been email and phone so i haven't been able to see his face to know if he's lying or not. although i have no doubt that if he's a skilled lier (my ex was one) that he'll be able to hide it from me but i don't think so...... we'll see and i'll let you know how it goes. it's scheduled to happen on monday, we'll see if he shows up or not. i have to admit that part of me is so tempted, since she knows anyway, to talk to his wife, i'd really like to hear her side. but at the same time, i know my peace of mind does not justify my making his and her life more difficult. so as much as i'm tempted...
i agree with you about the potential for success in these situations. a man i'm friends with and had a brief encounter with told me similar things, but also that he needed to make sure that if he left his marriage that he felt that he was making the decision for all the right reasons. he didn't want 10 years from now to think that he'd given up for something/someone else, that it had to be because in his heart he knew his marriage was really over. in many ways that argument makes so much more sense to me and probably why that break-up although difficult was easier (i also wasn't as connected emotionally). but at the same time, i know and see him and his wife frequently. and a year + later i see the he** that he and hiw wife are going through while they're supposedly "trying", the sniping, the not doing things together, basically living separate lives under the same roof. and as far as i know she doesn't know that he had an affair, although i think he's having another now and i'd put money on the fact that she'd shove him out the door. i'm just thankful that i'm not involved. that one was a huge mistake on my part. my bad!!!
but as i was relating that story to my MM what i said to him was that if people have grown apart and have changed as people over the years, simply saying "we're going to try" doesn't automatically make them become the people they were 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago when they first fell in love. is it possible for them to fall in love again? maybe, but in most cases if the people they've become fell out of love with and are no longer attracted to the other person, how does simply saying that they'll try make sense. i know that counseling may help some but.... i don't believe research shows that there's even much success there. if people are just going through a minor "bump" in their relationship then maybe, but in so many of these cases these bumps have become the equivalent of mt. everest and may be insurmountable. as my father always used to say "fish or cut bait." in other words i think some are unwilling to admit defeat and will sit there in their boat, emotionally alone and paralyzed for years. so be it, they and my MM included are more than welcome to live the rest of their lives making each other miserable. that's their choice. i'm chosing and have chosen "happiness." i may be selfish, i don't care. life's too short and too precious to let others suck the life source out of us... our MMs included!!
Wow, VivianLee! You really wrote some powerful stuff and exactly what I have been reading in other places. Although I've been a part of an affair, I can honestly have a degree of sympathy on all of these people, men and women, who have been so unfortunate as to lose that most special aspect of love and marriage. At least for myself, I might be able to go on and find someone else to love in the future, and someone to love me. Maybe not, but still, I won't have to live day-to-day with those sorts of feelings.
This is another common theme I've noticed in so many of the posts...
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I went way beyond what I should have to work things out......I woke up a year later and realized I was the one betrayed but I made all the sacrifices to make the marriage work. Our sex life wasn't great (I remember sobbing in the shower thinking, he'd risk his soul to have sex with her but he doesn't want me), he wouldn't communicate at the time (I was begging for love notes, e-mails and adoration) so one day, I felt it in my heart, something died, it wasn't my love as much as my will.....
The betrayed spouse is working so hard to make things right, to do and say just the right things, to act the right way. Gosh! What pressure! And from what I'm beginning to gather, it's really all for naught. If the BS says one thing wrong, the spouse gets defensive and accusing, and then the BS is left to sit there wondering if he/she isn't "rushing" out to someone else. The one thing that I've read that I really believe is that no relatiionship really survives an affair - even though the couple may stay together. When I first read that, I didn't understand, but I think I'm beginning to.
Another thing I was thinking about as I sat in the mall having lunch a couple of days ago and watching people walk by is that approximately 60% of men have affairs. So there I sat, counting off men as they walked by and thinking six out of those ten on average. If 50% of marriages end in divorce, then that would mean that only about 10% of those marriages survive. Now...being the mathmatical genius I am. But you get the point.
Remember college statistic class? Or maybe it was psychology 101 .... something about self selection. The people who are here, seek out and write in these forums are people in the most pain. I'd bet we are more highly emotional, sensitive than most..don't know but just a guess.
I have a girlfriend who had an affair 15 years ago. It was her first and last. It was mostly an emotional affair, sex was not the issue. She was discovered. Her husband cried for a year and it took a long time for him to trust her again. She had to make many promises to win back his trust.
She said that she was so sorry that she almost risked everything. Her children, her home and her relationship with her husband. They are not a passionate couple, but they do seem happy. They share their grown children and love to travel.
My parents also had affairs. They are still together. They don't have the marriage I want, but they do genuinely care about each other and do implicitly trust each other...
So I think anything is possible. I want it to be possible because I too am trying to put back a marriage. I see some hope...
Originally posted by izzybelle
if people have grown apart and have changed as people over the years, simply saying "we're going to try" doesn't automatically make them become the people they were 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago when they first fell in love. is it possible for them to fall in love again? maybe, but in most cases if the people they've become fell out of love with and are no longer attracted to the other person, how does simply saying that they'll try make sense. i know that counseling may help some but.... i don't believe research shows that there's even much success there. if people are just going through a minor "bump" in their relationship then maybe, but in so many of these cases these bumps have become the equivalent of mt. everest and may be insurmountable. as my father always used to say "fish or cut bait."
I so totally agree with this, izzy! Every relationship has "bumps in the road" be it lovers, friends or family. Shoot! Even my dogs and I have had "bumps" in our relationship! And maybe one of these one-night-stands are bumps. But much beyond that, it does seem that maybe too much water has gone under the bridge to ever salvage much more than a skeleton of the relationship.
I've learned so much in the past couple of weeks. Until now, I didn't know there was such a thing as an "emotional affair" or "physical affair." I thought an affair was an affair and I assumed that emotional and physical went hand in hand. Now, with definitions firmly planted in my brain, I can look back and see that Mr. XXX and I had an "emotional" affair long before any type of "physical affair" was even thought of. And, too, looking back, I'm beginning to understand what he meant by the attraction he felt for me long before I was ever aware of it. But, in part, that's the reason I know that it really isn't over. The emotional part will always be there and that is what will ultimately kill his marriage - even if I never see him again.
And yes, please do let us know how things turn out on Monday.
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i'm chosing and have chosen "happiness." i may be selfish, i don't care. life's too short and too precious to let others suck the life source out of us... our MMs included!!
However, I have said this before to someone on this forum....don't let statistics and failures cause you to give up on true love and marriage. I'd rather take the risk and hope to be one of those in the 10% range rather than never try. Being in love and loving someone is still worth it even if it brings pain.....
When my husband and I separated (during his affair), it really effected our church community. We were (and are now) active in alot of projects. One of the couples (an older couple in their 60's) knew of what had happened and the lady immediately wanted to talk to me....I had admired this couple for many years, they did so much work in churches and were so sound as Christians....
She went on to tell me that 40 years earlier her husband had had an affair. She told me all about it and how she handled it. I listened intently because I respected this woman and this couple immensly PLUS they were still married 40 years after an affair.....I was like a sponge, desperate to take in all she had to say so one day I'd look back and see myself giving the same advice 40 years later.....
I look back now and bless her heart, she gave the WORSE advice of all.....
Never bring it up (i.e. don't talk about it ever again)
Make sure I learn as much about sex as possible (you should do that anyway)
Do whatever he asked or it takes to get him to come back
Make sure I'm always what he wants no matter what I have to do to change
There were about a dozen things she told me and I listened.....
I tried to suppress and not bring it up but that wasn't me at all....so when I couldn't hold back talking.....instead of a civil conversation....I BLEW UP and cussed him out for hours (which is something I'd never done to him or really anyone)....
I did all these things (except suppress my anger) and eventually realized (after it was too late) that this was not the course to take....(we really, really should have gotten couple's counseling!!)....
Ya know, then I remember something about this lady....she is on strong, strong medicine because in the past 40 years, she's had numerous nervous breakdowns.....there are times she's just shut down......
Ummmmmm....yeah she's still married, he didn't cheat again BUT she's about lost her FREAKIN' mind!!!!
It's very possible had we gotten counseling on how he should handle me and the situation and how I should handle him and the situation, things would have gone positive from the get-go....
Had we not gotten back together, we would have never had the wonderful times with our daughter and her friends, the holidays, the new friendships we have now and many other positive and happy experiences....
So let's say, the way we went about it, wasn't worth it but if we can get our act together, maybe it can be.....there is still alot of potential in our marriage and maybe that means healing....I can't be positive....
Please note: The suggestions and advice offered on this web site are opinions only and are not to be used in the place of professional psychological counseling or medical advice. If you or someone close to you is currently in crisis or in an emergency situation, contact your local law enforcement agency or emergency number.
But you get the point.
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