[Kizzyfur]

I am in a predicament here. I don't know how to word this so I'll just do the best I can and hope you understand.

I became friends with a co-worker and due to circumstances when I needed a place to stay she offered. I lived with her and her family for six months. It didn't take me long to realize I was basically a live in nanny to their three (soon to be four) children. The mother is neglectful and the father is out of town a lot for work. She allows the kids run of the house to do what they want as long as they don't bother her. She spends her days hidden away in the bedroom. When they want her to do anything with them she tells them no, to leave her alone. Dad is good with the kids, when he's home. There is even more stress being put on the children because the parents are contemplating divorce.

The children range in age from 7mos. to 7 years. The oldest, now in first grade, has been falling asleep in class. He's been suspended from school for fighting. He's threatened on numerous occassions to kill his mother and younger brother ("because he is so much like mom"). The middle child has killed a cat by strangulation. He is also known to make up false accusations to get attention. They both try hard to gain their mothers approval on things only to be told they're not done or have done it wrong. All three of the boys (ages 3 - 7) will cling to anyone who pays them any attention. As soon as the baby (now 7 mos) was big enough, Mom no longer held her even for feedings. She would prop the bottle on a pillow. And if the baby wanted attention, she was usually passed off to the closest person available to give it to her; unless Dad wanted to play with her and Mom just wanted to be a bitch, then she'd play with her before Dad could have her.

Mom also uses the kids to get her way with other people. For example, if Grandma (Dads mom) is unable to babysit for whatever reason, Mom will tell the kids "Grammy doesn't love them." If Dad does something to upset Mom, "Dads being an *******." She has threatened Dad and Grammy on various occassions that they will never see the kids again if Dad doesn't change his ways, reconsile his differences, and stay with her. This is the only reason the divorce hasn't already been started. He is so affraid of losing his kids forever. She never even wanted them to begin with, but will use them to get her way.

Other than that, the kids are healthy. Never physically abused in any way and always fed.

My delema is this. Is this enough to turn her into Child Protective Services? I think I'd be able to cope with it if I did make the decision to file a complaint against her if I can keep my mind set on the kids welfare being more important than my friendship with her. What would happen to the kids if they do find her unfit? Also, will it affect Dad getting the kids later if he tries for custody in the divorce. He is so good with the kids, he deserves to have them. I was dead set on turning her in awhile ago, but he'd asked me to wait till he filed for divorce because he didn't know if it might hurt his case.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Is this enough to turn her into Child Protective Services?

I would definitely think so! There are a couple of members on this forum (moimeme and I think possibly HokeyReligions) that I'm sure would have plenty of knowledge about situations like these. You could send them a PM with a copy of your post, in case they don't catch it on their own.

Also, will it affect Dad getting the kids later if he tries for custody in the divorce. He is so good with the kids, he deserves to have them. I was dead set on turning her in awhile ago, but he'd asked me to wait till he filed for divorce because he didn't know if it might hurt his case.

I think that this would help his case, not hurt it.

Try this link (with a child abuse hotline):

http://www.childhelpusa.org/programs_hotline.htm

You can reach them 24 hours a day; I'm sure they will be able to give you better advice than we can. Telling you what does and does not qualify as abuse, what you can do about it, and how it will affect the father of the children trying to get custody if he files for divorce.

I wish you the best of luck.

-Deranged

[Samson]

the kids are healthy. Never physically abused in any way and always fed.

So what is CPS supposed to do here? Give Mom a good spanking?

Sorry, but you have just decribed most of the housholds in which my student live, with one exception: The father usually is not present AT ALL.

CPS is very busy with much more serious cases, and even then they are overloaded. Please do not spread their resources any more thin.

I don't know. It seems like a pretty bad environment to me.

The middle child has killed a cat by strangulation.

This particularly weirded me out.

If the poster was not present in the household, would the children be taken care of?

Isn't a 7 month old child still young enough to be carried around/fed by the mother? Should she really be pushing it off onto her other children?

I know they aren't being beaten, kicked out of the house, etc - but there has to be someone she could call. It's sad that this isn't enough to get someone involved. But again, I don't really know much about these types of things.

Last suggestion: Have the father contact a laywer and figure out his chances of being granted full custody.

-Deranged

[Samson]

Sorry, but there are much worse situations out there than the one described. There is no one to call.

Yeah, kids killing animals is awful, but it could have been an accident. If it happens more than once, well then you have a real problem.

[Kizzyfur]

Deranged,
Thank you so much for the URL to the site. It gave very helpful information. I will be going to visit with a CPS councellor to discuss the issue further. I am thinking about finding out how many people who are involved in these childrens lives I could get to back me as well. I know I'm not the only one who thinks she's doing the kids wrong.

Samson,
So what you're saying is that as long as there is no physical abuse going on, everythings alright? I went to the site that Deranged sent and this definately fits the profile of mental abuse.
You'd mentioned that a lot of your studends grew up in this situation. I am curious what the percentage of adults who were raised in this manner are lucky enough to have gotten on with their lives without ending up in prison or addicted to drugs or with mental problems of their own. My congratulations to those that did.

I overlooked it for so long because I did feel the same way as Samson. They are physically healthy kids. They're not being beaten. They are fed (even if it is only Hamberger Helper every night because Mom doesn't know how to cook anything else), they have decent clothing, and they have good hygene.
But the childrens temperments are only becoming more aggressive and hateful. First graders should not be getting suspended from school for fighting. A 7 year old should NOT be telling everyone he hates them and wants to kill them. Trust me, the look he gets in his eyes when he says it makes you believe he's serious. He is a very aggressive child. He shouldn't be. He's now got his 3 year old brother thinking it's a fun game to threaten to kill everyone.
A 5 year old should not have so much hatred stored that he can strangle a cat. Studies show that when a young child starts killing animals, nine times out of ten they will go on to kill people later.
Children of any age shouldn't believe that no one loves them. I don't know how many times these kids came up to me and said no one loved them. Their mother is teaching them that if someone isn't able to do for them right then and there, they're not loved. It's also a sure sign of emotional neglect when a child will cling to anyone who pays them the least bit of attention.
Things have only gotten worse with them since I'd moved out of the house. This is why I've been thinking about getting CPS involved in the matter.

[Samson]

Well, if you really want to get CPS case workers one more thing to do then go right ahead and give them a call, but do you really expect them to remove the kids from this home or thousands of others with the same conditions? Without removal, how will the problem be resolved? Force the mother into some court ordered therapy sessions? Her change must be voluntary.

Kizzy and Deranged, I appreciate your sensativity to this problem. I'm certainly VERY AWARE EVERYTHING IS NOT ALRIGHT. Have either of you been into the Big Brothers/Big Sisters program in your cities. This seems to be a good starting point in changing the otherwise dark future of the multitudes of children living in these conditions.

You will find even one case like the one you've described incredibly exhuasing to deal with, and much more so to really change.

[Kizzyfur]

Maybe if more people gave a damn about kids in situations like this one, there wouldn't be so much crime. Catch it where it starts and nip it in the bud. Put more money and effort into stopping it BEFORE it starts, then maybe there wouldn't be such a high demand for our prisons.

Somethings wrong with this country when the Humane Society will take your dog away if you keep it tied out in the yard with little or no contact. But everyone will overlook a case of child neglect unless something is physically wrong with the child. Then we wonder why there are so many mentally ill people walking the streets.

Samson, I do agree with you, but only to an extent. If these kids weren't becoming so aggressive I wouldn't see a point in contacting anyone about it. If you could only see the hatred in the eyes and the rage that courses through the body of this 7 year old, I think you would agree with me that something needs to be done. And when all it takes to calm him is a persistant, caring hug, you know it's due to neglect. His mother will not do this. She only yells and sends him to his room, making things worse.

I have an appointment to discuss it with a CPS councellor. If he/she feels it unnecessary to look into the case, I'll drop it. If he/she is interested in checking into it, I will pursue the issue and find out how many people will back me on it. I will let him/her decide if it's worth the trouble.

Maybe if it wasn't a requirement to have a bachelors degree to work for CPS they would have a lot more help on their side. I know I would do it, but can't afford to go to college for the degree. And I'm sure there are MANY more like me out there. HEH, you can become a corrections officer just by filling out an application and passing a test.

[Samson]

Kizzy,

You'll be doing much more by volunteering;

www.bbbsa.org

[moimeme]

Samson, you are far too cynical about everything. To ignore a situation like this because it's 'just another of the many cases' is pathetic. The very best thing anyone can do is talk to CPS and allow them to decide what is and is not a valid case. Don't tell me you're not reporting cases among your students because you've given up before you even started?

Talk about lame.

[Samson]

OK moi, you've got you opinion.

Mine is based on seeing thousands of similar situations.

Simply filing a report with CPS will do nothing. Sorry, you believe encouraging concerned people to volunteer their time and efforts to participating in a real solution is cynical.

Regardless, no harm done here in reality-land. I've become very accustomed to the emotional, rather than the logical reaction.

[moimeme]

The logical reaction is that giving up without even trying is illogical. Quitting without making an effort is the emotional reaction since it comes from despair.

Sorry, you believe encouraging concerned people to volunteer their time and efforts to participating in a real solution is cynical.

Really kind of an adolescent retort, is it not? You know very well that was not my meaning. People who twist things this way are real annoying, ya know.

[FolderWife]

This is horrible You just described my husbands upbringing These kids are already ruined for life

I don't know what to tell you to do This is just so horrible, I had to post to let you know, that yes, this is horrible.

[Bobbie]

it's very easy to judge other people's parenting skills ( or lack of ) or relationships, but a social worker would want to look at the big picture.

I doubt anything you detail would be classified as abuse, though some intervention might be helpful- but then it would in most families!

Is the mother depressed?
Post-natal depression is fairly common, and caring for a home and 4 (?) children age 0-7 is a lot harder than it seems.

Talking to the mother about how she feels/ is coping & what would help ( in an open, non-judgemental way ) is a good place to start.

[Kizzyfur]

First off, I want to thank all of you for participating in this discussion. Even if I didn't agree with you, your advice was important to me.

Bobbie,
If you truely feel that this situation would not be classified as abuse, maybe you should visit the link that Deranged offeres in one of her postings.
"Emotional abuse - Any attitude or behavior which interferes with a
child's mental health or social development. This includes yelling,
screaming, name-calling, shaming, negative comparisons to others,
telling them they are "bad, no good, worthless" or "a
mistake". It also includes the failure to provide the affection
and support necessary for the development of a child's emotional,
social, physical and intellectual well-being. This includes ignoring,
lack of appropriate physical affection (hugs), not saying "I
love you", withdrawal of attention, lack of praise, and lack of
positive reinforcement. "
This is EXACTLY what these kids are growing up with.


Monday,
How is your husband coping?

I am not judging anyones parenting skills. Yes, I agree that raising 4 children SHOULD be difficult. But watching her for six months, if I didn't already know better, I'd think it was a piece of cake. Just lying around all day watching TV or sleeping, occassionally clean house (which most of that too is put on the kids anyway, even the dishes) and cook dinner. What single person with no kids doesn't already do these things? Hell, she doesn't even have to go to work.

Yes, I could go with the postpartum depression theory. But doesn't it usually go away after awhile? I mean, this is how she was raising her kids when I met her a year before she got pregnant with the last child. There are almost 3 years between the third child and the last. Yes, she tries blaming her problems on post partum depression as well. But isn't there a time when it does go away? It's not just her kids she treats badly. Personally, yes, I think she does have a legitament excuse for being the way she is, I've met her mother. She was raised in nearly the same circumstances. Thing is, she admits she KNOWS it was wrong the way her mother raised her. So why then is she passing it down to her own children?

No, I'm not judging her parenting skills, I am going by how aggressive and hateful these children are becoming. If it wasn't for that fact I would leave well enough alone.

Before me, she had their Grammy living with them to care for them. She moved out and then there was me. After I moved out, she's now got a guy friend living there. He's more of a brother figure to her so there's nothing going on between them. However, she has moved the three boys out of their room and set up their beds in the livingroom so her "brother" can have his own room.

Deranged,
in answer to one of your questions about whether or not there would be supervision if I hadn't been there. What's it tell you when a 2 year old can get ahold of a marker and draw "pictures" on every wall of the entire house and not get caught? Damn, what would have happened had he put the cap in his mouth and inhaled it?? This little episode happened after I moved out and before she moved her "brother" in. Yes, I know kids can be terrors and it doesn't take them long to find trouble. But I also saw his "art work" and it took him more than just a few minutes to cover EVERY WALL.